Porn is a visual medium for me, and my quality isn't 'maturity of talent'. Of talent , yes: IMHO 18yo are generally speaking keen and able to discern what they want (incl. consequences).
Besides: any director/producer/manufacturer (every branch)going for the easiest route of making art/product, isn't delivering 100% quality. I'll pay, but expect quality (just bought 6 Evil Angels!).
I can't say that you succeeded in 'holding it in' worth a damn. Makes me wonder why you bothered. It isn't eliciting a sympathetic response here, believe me.
The legal age is 18. What the age of consent is in other countries is irrelevant to US consumers and has nothing to do with their level of awareness.
Don't expect any legitimate American producers to cater to your taste, since going to jail isn't on their agenda. Don't expect any foreign producers to shoot younger performers if they hope to sell their product into the US market. In other words, get over it.
visual medium, yes, but we're not talking photographic stills here, we're talking motion picture. things have to move. action has to happen.
by maturity i mean competence, buoyancy, endurance, screen presence . as i said, there are exceptions, but legality is standardisation, majority, masses, etc. etc. blah blah blah
You have beautiful flesh. GIVE IT TO US! 9 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 2:27AM
OK, I'm new and it has been several months since anyone responded to this topic, but here goes: The legal age of consent only matters for legal purposes. Some people are ready for sexual "exploration" when they are younger, some when they are older. It is impossible to establish any universal criteria by which a girl is "ready" for porn. I would say offhand, based on the limited number of actual 18-year-olds I know, that most of them are not emotionally ready for that sort of thing. But not all of them. Any law that would raise the "age of consent" to 21 would hurt those 18 to 20-year-olds who, like Sasha Grey, are certainly able to give informed consent to fuck total strangers in front of video cameras for money.
Money - there's the rub. The fact that most women who enter porn do it because they need to make money is perhaps the most troubling aspect of the "industry." The urgent need to put bread on the table and pay rent moots the idea of informed consent - and not just in porn. Does anyone think that slaughterhouse workers actually WANT to spend 12 hours a day up to their ankles in blood and chicken heads? This is an issue of economic exploitation, and no age-of-consent law will solve it barring some incredible social revolution.
I hate to say that these things should be left up to the producers and the performers, but raising the legal age to 21 would only be a cosmetic fix to a problem that has very deep roots in our culture and economic system. Lowering it to 16, as some on this thread have suggested, would only make it worse. Plus, the 18 year olds are so hot!
[Link]
married_lucky Deactivated User
202 Posts 11/06
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 12:14PM
Fantastic idea....I would love to see it happen.
[Link]
Dmoskos23 Deactivated User
Chicago 26 Posts 12/06
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 1:20PM
Although we would be missing out on a lot of hot young talent, I agree with the stars who believe raising the minimum age to 21 is a good decision. You have to admit some of these 18 yr old girls just look way to young and clearly aren't matured enough to realize the massive effects on her life the adult bus will have. (except maybe Sasha Grey I saw her interviewed and she seemed very matured). . Sasha Grey interview on you tube:
the coment someone posted about some of the girls who say they are 18 are really in there 20's is true i feel that if someone has a fetish for young girls 18 year old teens i would say you just have to search for girls that look like that i know that lexi love fits this model she looks 18 if the age limit is ever bummped to 21 you would have to leave the girls that are in there already like the sasha grey's would be real lame sorry come back in 2 years while there product that is already made is flying off the shelves
I haven't heard anything about any decision having been made. Only opinions.That's because that's what the market wants. The porn industry always goes above and beyond in trying to produce what they perceive that the market wants. People want big tits so women get these massive, grotesque, almost cartoonish implants just to compete with all the other women who have them. The market wants "young" and "barely legal" so they have any woman who can pass for 18 dress up like a high school freshmen.
They probably "look way too young" because they're trying to. Talent scouts no doubt look for the youngest looking 18 year olds they can find. It would make no difference in this regard if the legal age was raised to 25. They would still find women who could be dressed and made up to "look way too young". That's the whole point.
Once again, I don't think ANYONE has this kind of wisdom until they're "over the hill" or pretty damn close to it. And I wouldn't say that anything is that clear when it comes to how mature someone is or isn't at age 18.
I think what people are really saying here is that girls should have to wait until society has it's tentacles far enough into them that they're even ashamed to do their husbands or boyfriends behind closed doors with a light on....to say nothing of doing porn.
I'm personally glad that the dark ages are over and people are (slowly) becoming more sexually liberated. It's about damn time. Victoria can kiss my ass.
[Link]
married_lucky Deactivated User
202 Posts 11/06
Posted - Jan 21 2007 : 12:52PM
IMO...It just as easy to get off on a fresh 21yo, or fresh at any age thereafter.
But I once heard and argument that went along these lines:
Most of these woman have been getting fucked/molested/violated/raped since they were small children it's just a matter of when someone turns on the cameras....So it's not who or when the camera goes on that does the damage....it's an argument that says they were set-up and were sold-out long ago, and camera's rolling makes little difference....so let me watch them fuck themselves up.
I'm not an agist. I left home when I was 14, and I was already behaving as an adult. I had no rights, I couldn't even open a bank account. I couldn't rent an apartment, drive a car, purchase cooking sherry, or register myself for school. I dealt with it. It sucked. It's not a good thing to refuse rights to the few for the sake of the many, but, as I've been told so many times before, the world doesn't work on a case-by-case basis.
That being said, I do think it's a terrible shame that so many performers, male and female, of all ages, go into the adult entertainment business essentially blind. Rather than raising the age for entrants, I'd like to see a self-imposed testing/licensing requirement. Everyone who wants in signs up for 6 weeks of classes. Learn money management, basic biology, sociology, psychology, law, and the real damned facts about the industry. Learn the good side and the bad side. Plenty of other professions have educational requirements, so it's not specific to the adult entertainment industry. I'm not pointing a dirty finger at porn and saying you need to know more about doing porn than some other job. Heck, even some fast food jobs have training weeks.
If someone can't wait a few weeks to get into porn, either they didn't plan ahead and get started with their classes before they wanted to begin working, and that doesn't bode well for their looking-to-the-future skill set, or they're broke and trying to make a quick buck to pay the overdue rent.
Thank you Sasha for standing your ground Our media and society wants to hold women up for public ridicule and shame. Has anyone ever seen them hold up a male porn star for ridicule? Hell Ron Jeremy is star he’s been on that show bragging about thousands of girls he’s bang. Did they bring in a doctor to talk to him? Porn girls used up, go to any Denny’s and see how waiting tables uses up women and countless other jobs. And they go home and get fucked in ass for free after working a double shift.
It doesn’t end well for porn girls. Go back and check on what happens to those Denny’s waitress when they can’t carry those food trays.
As far getting paid. I work construction. People always want me to fix or build something for them. I’m good at my job, I love my job, but I don’t do it for free.
Question do you do porn for the money "I fuck for free, I just charge you to watch"
Porn girls and drugs? Girls are exposed to drugs in Junior High
Oprah Winfrey had Nina Hartley and Ona Zee and tried to shame them. They didn’t accept they’re shame either. (Maybe Nina will post on this)
You’re a brave girl for not accepting your shame. Hold your head up high you have nothing to be a shamed of. You are a truly beautiful and remarkable young lady.
Google Wm Margold's site and you'll find this listed as one of his many dumb-ass ideas.
Just in case you are wondering, I am not in favor of such a rule. If any of you are in favor of a 21 year old mininum, you should make it a point to never buy any porn with girls under 21.
Only? When was the last time they brought a wounded 19 year old Iraqi war vet with no legs onto one of these shows and tried to present them as a drooling, barely out of diapers tot who didn't have a clue what they were getting themselves into?
Now I remember why I hate these shows so much. Fucking people won't be happy until you have to go to college and get a degree in order to be allowed to fuck.
[Link]
married_lucky Deactivated User
202 Posts 11/06
Posted - Feb 2 2007 : 9:37AM
I like the part in the interview where Sasha Grey says, "I'm a performer".
That's perfect! When she does Max Hardcore, and after he pisses on her face while fucking her up the ass, while some other chick fists and pukes on her....Max can get her to look into the camera and say, "Look mom, I'm a performer".
I say that within 24 months she will have a drug habit and every STD short of HIV, and in the forum we will see....WEHT Sasha Grey..
The smartness people in the world are 18 year olds, you get progressively dumber after that.
I don't really agree. Another poster in the other thread said that there will just be more naive 21 yr olds getting into the business and I think he's right. The way college is, you don't mature much from HS.
It may make some difference but not too much. Shit, I still run into naive 30 year olds.
I would lower the age to the old danish minimum age of 15. ( All materials < 15 should be illegal, of course ! ) In most states, you can have sex around 15. ( 14 in Germany, 16 officially in NL - laughing ) I wouldnt draw a line between filmed sex and private sex. Even if you have moral objections against it, its strange that sex is legal with 16 in most states, but turns into an illegal action if it is filmed and distributed. This doesnt make sense and has nothing to do with child-pornography.
It all depends on the society. It shouldnt be impossible in a liberal society, always adding, that no other illegal under-age material should be allowed. But there is no liberal society existing anymore.
The problem of many 18-teenagers struggling in porn, is the bad preparation. The cliches they have about the industry. The $ in her eyes. And of course, the industry itself. ( We often here hear that many 18-ers are struggling in US, but honestly I dont know, if this is really true. )
The idea of the 18-age minimum ( Ive read most US states had a 16-year age min. until the early 80s. ) was to save teenagers psychologicial health and the sexual development.
Which is good, but you cant draw such a static age line. Some girls are very advanced with 15, some arent with 21. If all sex and pornography is disclosed until 18, and it is a taboo in the US to talk about it, then you cant believe, that a 18-year old newbie will be prepared for her/his first porn movie, or ? Now the Teen Stars have 2 years maximally, if they start with 18. What is the result ? They shoot many, many, much, too much movies. Because they can star in a Teen Feature today, but not tomorrow. Is this really better than starting 1 or 2 years earlier and slower?
We hadnt bad experiences with the 16+ age minimum here. ( which was changed in 2003 ) Now demanding a 21-year old minimum age, that is really out-of-this-world. You have to change the negative tendencies in the porn biz. Or is it better if a 21-year old star is treated badly ? Nobody cares, because she is 21.....
I think the models should have had much more freedoom regarding the final products. e.g. marketing, titles, storys etc. And there should be an open discussion of the faults and errors in porn movies today.
- some older businesspeople fearing the competition they'd face from younger people. - pedophilic tendencies among some older people, who'd rather 15-year-olds masturbate to their images, than to images of people their own age.
If we're failing to prepare people mentally for sex by the time they're physically ready, that failure should be addressed directly.
Edited by - Thomas D C on 4/13/2007 2:04:04 PM
[Link]
Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Apr 13 2007 : 3:19PM
In most places 18 is the age of majority, i.e. the threshold of adulthood as it is conceptualised in law. That's the age when most are conscripted to the army, or can be enlisted if it's voulantary, it's the age above which you can be tried as an adult in court and otherwise receive the rights as well as duties of an adult citizen. IMO, if you're above the age of majority, you have the right to engage in any act or line of work that's legal. I think 18 is a resonable age of majority.
The age of (sexual) consent most places hover in the 14-16 range. I think 14 is the better choice, since such a large percentage debut before they're 16 and it makes little sense to have a law that criminalizes normal behaviour. It should probably be combined with the age of criminal responsibility, since consent in the wider sense should also define the treshold for responsibility.
I think we should raise the voting age to 45. Clearly all you youngsters are just not mature enough to make such an important decision before that. Just look at the politicians some of you elect.
Same for driving permits. How can somebody under 45 possibly be mature enough to handle something as lethal as a car. Just look at all the crashes some of you have.
Also, the age of consent for sex should be raised to 36, and if someone over 38 dares to have sex with a 36 year old, we should beat him for hours in a police cell, then lock him in jail for fifty years, or maybe just shoot him.
I had no one in particular in mind as I wrote that. I'm just recalling that when I was in my early teens in the U.S., the only porn I could find showed people older than me. Some young teens are going to get their hands on porn; why enforce in them the idea that sexy means older.
A stupid 18 yo will become a stupid 21 yo and eventually an old stupid 80 yo
aging doesn't give intelligence nor smartness it might give you ONLY experience
Anyway I'm amazed about the concept of a scaled adulthood at 16 people is smart enough to run on a 200HP car or to have an M16 or to volunteer to war or any else but not to drink a beer and now apparently some people thinks they're not adult enough to get into porn , which by the way is referred to female performers only not one of the examples I read on this board (yes this argument had been discussed several times) was on male performers do they are smarter than girls? My personal experience in real life says NO especially at 18 girls are way smarter than their male counterpart.
It is also strange that right now in a great part of the USA the same girl or boy can do porn but not watch at it
I want to add, that I am also for a splitted minimum age. 15 years for girls and 18 for young men, because girls are much more advanced than their male counterparts.
When I was in the USA, in only one shop I had an interesting dialogue with the owner. He complainted about the Europeans, because he read that there were many illegal movies for sale in the shops, with is totally nonsense.
I think he misunderstood this, because the videos that were legal at this time in DK or NL, were and are illegal in the USA. Childporn is illegal in all european states, and in almost all states worldwide. But the different definitions caused this misunderstanding. Now Germany has still the lowest minimum age with 14, but they will change it this year, where almost all european states have adopted the 18+ laws but have different laws regarding the old videos. ( Sale, Distribution, Possession )
To get back to the point : Many customers heard our discussion and thought I came from a rogue state. But if asked, what series were the top sellers, the owner said, that the Series like " Eighteen " or " Yesterday I was Seventeen " sold extremely well. Videos with actresses just turned 18 sold very good.
I think this is a great hypocrisy. On the one hand the US states is on target to confiscate material with 15-17 year old actors, which werent produced unter illegal conditions in Europe THEN, on the other hand there are series where they print the age of the girl, and if the girl is just a few days after 18, these movies will fly off the shelves. If she is 17 1/2 years old, then you can be arrested.
If someone would rethink this, it would help to free manpower at the police, justice dept. and custom service, to hunt the real criminal pedophiles and to confess more real illegal material < 15 years of age.
( There is also the contradiction, that you can have sex with a 16-year old teen legally, but if you film it, its illegal content. )
This is not true. 18 yr olds are legal adults they can purchase and view porn as well as perform in porn like other adults in the US.
The only restriction on 18 to 20 yr olds they can’t purchase and consume alcohol legally. When 18 to 20 yr olds were granted adult status in the early seventy’s. 18 to 20 yr olds were granted the right to purchase and consume alcohol legally.
This is completely against the constitution but is allowed to stand “for the greater good of the people”.
The problem as I see it. Around 13 they become interested in sex and start becoming sexually active. Responsible adults are not allowed to participate in this process.
Alcohol and Drugs are introduced in this process. I think this leads to Alcohol and Drugs abuse that could last a lifetime. Teenage pregnancy and STD’s
They end up with a lot of problems when all they wanted to do was have sex.
I think sex with a responsible adult would be a great benefit to society.
since you quoted me I'm answering , I don't live in the USA but if I want to purchase a membership in a pornsite some of them told me in their purchasing form I had to be 21 to buy, other says 18+ but put a list of States in which 21 is the minimum age needed to purchase. My statement came from this.
About alchool consume I can't speak for the whole Europe since I'm not familiar with all the laws currently running in every Country but in most part of them there's no law about an age limit to consume Alchool it is left to common sense I don't think we have a percentage of Alchoolists higher than the USA
About underage sex each country has its habits and cultures In Italy the age of consent for sex with an adult is 16 , among minors is 14 , though if there are complains from the family a judge can prosecute any adult who has sex relations with an under 18 he will see and evaluate the minor to understand if he or she is really able to understand the consequencies of what is doing or if he/she has been misguided by the adult
Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 4/14/2007 2:22:26 PM
[Link]
Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Apr 14 2007 : 2:37PM
In most [European] countries it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone below the age of majority, i.e. 18.
I'm not sure what question you are answering, but it isn't the one I'm asking. I'm trying to determine whether the reason sex is OK at 16 but porn isn't is because of the monetary nature of the latter. It seems to me that if prostitution at 16 is not OK, either, then there's a consistent view of consensual versus monetarily-induces sex.
like where? as far as I know In Italy isn't nor is in France or Spain , it is in Great Britain and maybe in Germany ,don't know in eastern Europe
[Link]
Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Apr 14 2007 : 8:52PM
List below. You're right that there in most cases is no legal drinking age, you can't get busted for being drunk if underage. But bars or stores can be fined if they sell alcohol to minors.To what extent it is enforced probably varies a lot. In Norway where I'm from, I was frequently asked for ID when purchasing beer or going in to bars in my late teens.
Albania No minimum age Austria 18 Belarus 18 Belgium 16 Bulgaria 18 Croatia 18 Cyprus 18 Czech Republic 18 Denmark 16 Estonia 18 Finland 18 France 16 Germany 16 (beer, wine), 18 (spirits) Greece 16 Hungary 18 Iceland 20 Ireland 18 Italy 14 Liechtenstein 18 Luxembourg 18 Latvia 18 Lithuania 18 Macedonia 18 Malta 16 Moldova 18 (wine and spirits) Netherlands 16 Norway 18 Poland 18 Portugal 15 Romania 18 Russia 18 Serbia 18 Slovakia 18 Slovenia 18 Spain 16 Sweden 18 Switzerland 16 Ukraine 18 United Kingdom 18
I think it would be more beneficial for boy’s porn included. The reason? From about the time a boy is 13 most his time is spent thinking of how he can have sex. If a responsible adult lady took him into her bed. Taught him the ways of women and sex, how to treat a lady in the bed and out. Spoke to him of maturity and his responsibilities molding him with her sexual favors into a better man. This is what wives end up doing. But he lost 10 valuable years wandering aimlessly without direction.
Why porn for 13 yr old boys. Women will see this and it would be more acceptable. I think adult ladies could give these boys confidence and maturity and have some fun too.
Everyone like having sex and watching sex with teenagers. People are afraid to admit it but that goes for men and women. If the age were 13 then it would be 13 yr olds flying off the shelvesI have never seen that and I’ve bought a lot of porn. The states can’t change the federal law. It’s 18. Now I’m not saying your wrong just that I’ve never seen it. And they can’t enforce that
"Is it legal for a 16-year old to enter into prostitution?"
Depends on the country. It is illegal here in NL, but it was legal in Germany until 2,3 months ago, when they changed the law. But porn ISNT prostitution. I know some girls that played in porn movies, not one would have entered prostitution. Its a sort of extreme acting. But in prostitution you want to be anonymous, there is no HIV testing, the danger that some "customer" will harm you, even kill you.
I can understand people who want to ban prostitution, it has nothing to do with movie acting.
Another point that wandered through my mind reading the statements above. Why is it always the money to enter the porn biz ? Arent there many, many other reasons ?
In NL we had some series, where girls filmed theirselves at their private sexplay, and later they shipped it to the Video Company. At the time of filming, they didnt knew if their tape was released, and most didnt care. They only did it for fun. The paycheck wasnt very high, but they were proud to hold "their" movie in her hands.
These were amateur movies at first. Only later they were professionally distributed. Private sex between two ( or more ) loving partners is neither prostitution nor professional porn.
In the USA, it seems, that it is clearly divided. We never had this. Private sex and professional porn wasnt aparted, but there was a large intersection.
There's nothing wrong with an 18 year old who does porn. Actually, it takes a lot of talent and maturity for a teenage girl to perform things like gangbangs, multiple creampies, DAP, DPP, DP, etc. It's an an amazing attribute for a young lady to possess.
I think the real issue at hand is that we take the porn thing WAY too seriously. It's supposed to be fun and it's a young ladies game. Without the beautiful young girls we wouldn't have porn. It's the same reason that young people rule the modeling, singing and acting business. And it's the same reason why sex and clubs and bars are so popular amongst teenagers. What 16 year old isn't having sex? Being glamorous, being talented and having lots of sex is a young persons game.
Bottom line is sex and porn is supposed to be fun. To all the teenage girls in the porn industry- keep doing what you do. Use your talent and beauty while you have it. TRUST ME, no one is going to care 5 years later that you were drinking 50 cumshots from a bowl! You'll never bump into anyone who'll even remember you from porn and if you do then obviously they enjoyed watchin you! (why else would they watch porn) It's just fun and no matter what people tell you everyone enjoys it.
I think there's a lot of jealousy towards the young girls in porn. They're beautiful, young, and get paid for having fun. For every person you meet that thinks it's negative you will meet 10 more that love it. If some of your gangbang scenes come back to haunt you then you can always say with confidence "hey, I was just an innocent teen having some fun!" LOL But believe me you girls look amazing. Only stupid people think you are immature or too young looking. Porn is a young girls game. Heck, I wouldn't mind if they lowered it to 16. I don't ever recall watching an 18 year old or getting any complaints from people who rent and buy porn from me that the girls were immature or too young. And half my stuff has teenage girls. Like I said, it takes a great level of talent and maturity for a teenage girl to do porn. So do it while your a young, don't be afraid to push yourself to your limits and have fun. You're only a teenager once!
I think there is no real controversy between us. Porn can be fun and if the conditions are good for the actors and actresses, this is possible.
The extreme time pressure is a problem in most US porn productions. And even if a girl likes triple penetration, fun can evolve into pain, if she has to shoot half a dozen scenes a day. Look at the enormous outpout of Nautica Thorne in 2006. When she appeared, I was marveled at her beauty, but also of her charisma, her talent and friendliness. I rented all of her first movies, but later the output was too high, and Nautica had lost her freshness, and it looked, that she was outburned and empty, because of the countless scenes she shot.
I dropped to rent her movies, it just wasnt arousing me anymore. She later said in interviews, that this was a fault and she had overdone it. Now she had limited her porn appearances, and Nautica is better than ever !
Having fun in producing, acting and watching porn and taking porn seriously, this is no contradiction ! The laws to ban certain sex acts and to crminalize movies, that were legal for decades ( and havent harmed anyone ), ......-I think every intelligent citizen has to take this seriously. Too many viewers take porn for granted. It isnt impossible, that sometimes a government will ban porn totally. Look at the extreme right of the republicans. But also the so-called democrats had and have anti-porn activists. Isnt there a liberal party in the USA ?
Now we have the right-religous "christian unity party" in our new government in the Netherlands. Some say, "Thank god !", I say " please go to hell ". It still isnt clear, if they have the force to restrict porn laws even more. The freedom to enjoy porn is the result of a politicial decision. And every simple minded porn consumer, who isnt voting on election day, but laughing in the porn store, " I dont mind. I dont waste my time, but will watch some gonzo movies instead." isnt grasping the whole concept. The next time he wants to rent a XXX rated movie, all stores are closed and he can decide between "Sports Illustrated Video" and " Jane Fonda Workout" in his family video store, because these then are the most erotic movies that are allowed.
This is way off topic, but FYI the Netherlands, along with every other western european nation, has a much stronger reliance on the public sector for welfare, health, education etc. than any Democrat in the US would ever dare to run for election on. That was all, carry on.
This is not true at all. I am democrat and this propaganda lies put out by neo-conservatives. Every law we ever had that took away peoples civil rights and civil liberties was enacted by neo-conservatives republicans. Every Supreme Court decision that limited people’s civil rights and civil liberties came from neo-conservatives republican judges.
What the democrats believe in on taxation is people that make the most should pay the most.
Neo-conservatives republicans want absolute control over people’s lives. They want corporations to rules the county without any government control.
Democrats want to control corporations and free the people.
No sir, that is just propaganda lies put out by the neo-fascist and neo-communist democrats. Every law we ever had that taxed away peoples' income was enacted by neo-communist democrats. Every law putting education/indoctrination in the hands of the government, enacted by neo-fascist democrats.
What the libertarians believe is that sex and porn are okay, and that women should be allowed to keep the money they earn from it without high taxation.
Neo-fascist/communist democrats want absolute control over people's money, minds, and lives. They want government to rule the county without any citizen control.
Posted - Aug 21 2006 : 8:38AM
