Reviewers Recommend
NoveltyNovelty - review by Captain Jack
Director: W.C. Walker
Starring: Manuel Ferrara, Rissa May. Read review
All Forums > Sex Talk > Sex Talk Forum Page 27 > Women and ideas about Sexual Submission
AuthorPost
greg
Member


Thinking real hard about Katsirk
793 Posts
12/06
Posted - Jan 1 2009 : 11:38PM
caution the linked article may not be the best for the topic, or over the top it is a pro BDSM article written by a woman
But I do believe a majority of women prefer men to be assertive, to take charge, to avoid asking for permission, to make her feel hunted and taken, almost as if her cloths will be ripped off of her and that she will be consumed.
That Her biggest objections are not about this ideal or approach, but more about the taker being the right person. I realize this is not for everybody but I do think an 80/20 or at a minimum of a 70/30 applies.
Again I want to stress I am not posting to promote BDSM, but the idea that most prefer certain roles, or a little more distinction of sexual roles than a progressive society prefers.
The linked article entitled
“The Fantasy of Acceptable 'Non-Consent': Why the Female Sexual Submissive Scares Us (and Why She Shouldn't)By Stacey May Fowles, Seal Press. Posted December 29, 2008.
There is a guilt and shame among women who have fantasies of their own violation and express a desire to be demeaned.
The following excerpt is from the book Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape, edited by Jaclyn Friedman and Jessica Valenti. Excerpted by arrangement with Seal Press, a member of the Perseus Books Group. Copyright (c) January 2009.
is printed below in italics
Because I'm a feminist who enjoys domination, bondage and pain in the bedroom, it should be pretty obvious why I often remain mute and, well, pretty closeted about my sexuality. While it's easy for me to write an impassioned diatribe on the vital importance of "conventional" women's pleasure, or to talk publicly and explicitly about sexual desire in general, I often shy away from conversations about my personal sexual choices. Despite the fact that I've been on a long, intentional path to finally feel empowered by, and open about, my decision to be a sexual submissive, the reception I receive regarding this decision is not always all that warm.
BDSM (for my purposes, bondage, discipline, dominance and submission, sadism and masochism) makes a lot of people uncomfortable, and the concept of female submission makes feminists really uncomfortable. I can certainly understand why, but I also believe that safe, sane and consensual BDSM exists as a polar opposite of a reality in which women constantly face the threat of sexual violence.
As someone who works in the feminist media and who advocates against violence against women and for rape survivors' rights, I never really felt I was allowed to participate in the fantasy of my own violation. There is a guilt and shame in having the luxury to decide to act on this desire -- to consent to this kind of "nonconsent." It seems to suggest you haven't known true sexual violence, cannot truly understand how traumatic it can be, if you're willing to incorporate a fictional version of it into your "play." But this simply isn't true: A 2007 study conducted in Australia revealed that rates of sexual abuse and coercion were similar between BDSM practitioners and other Australians. The study concluded that BDSM is simply a sexual interest or subculture attractive to a minority, not defined by a pathological symptom of past abuse.
But when you throw a little rape, bondage or humiliation fantasy into the mix, a whole set of ideological problems arises. The idea of a woman consenting to be violated via play not only is difficult terrain to negotiate politically, but also is rarely discussed beyond BDSM practitioners themselves. Sexually submissive feminists already have a hard enough time finding a voice in the discourse, and their desire to be demeaned is often left out of the conversation. Because of this, the opportunity to articulate the political ramifications of rape fantasy happens rarely, if at all.
You can blame this silence on the fact that BDSM is generally poorly -- often cartoonishly -- represented. Cinematic depictions are generally hastily drawn caricatures, pushing participants onto the fringes and increasing the stigma that surrounds their personal and professional choices. While mainstream film and television occasionally offer up an empowered, vaguely fleshed-out and somewhat sympathetic professional female dom (think Lady Heather from "CSI"), those women who are sexually submissive by choice seem to be invisible. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that they are left out of the picture because, quite simply, they scare us. Feminist pornographic depictions of women being dominated for pleasure are often those involving other women -- that's a safe explicit image, because the idea of a male inflicting pain on a consenting woman is just too hard for many people to stomach. For many viewers it hits too close to home -- the idea of a female submissive's consensual exchange of her authority to make decisions (temporarily or long-term) for a dominant's agreement to make decisions for her just doesn't sit well with the feminist community.
It's important to point out that, however you attempt to excuse it, this inability to accept BDSM into the feminist dialogue is really just a form of kinkophobia, a widely accepted prejudice against the practice of power-exchange sex. Patrick Califia, writer and advocate of BDSM pornography and practice, wisely states that "internalized kinkophobia is the unique sense of shame that many, if not most, sadomasochists feel about their participation in a deviant society." This hatred of self can be particularly strong among feminist submissives, when an entire community that they identify with either dismisses their desires or pegs them as unwitting victims.
It's taken me many years of unlearning mainstream power dynamics to understand and accept my own desire for fictional, fetishized ones. Despite this deliberate journey of self-discovery and the accompanying (and perhaps contradictory) feelings of being in total control, it's pretty evident that the feminist movement at large is not really ready to admit that women who like to be hit, choked, tied up and humiliated are empowered. Personally, the more I submitted sexually, the more I was able to be autonomous in my external life, the more I was able to achieve equality in my sexual and romantic partnerships, and the more genuine I felt as a human being. Regardless, I always felt that by claiming submissive status I was being highlighted as part of a social dynamic that sought to violate all women. Sadly, claims of sexual emancipation do not translate into acceptance for submissives -- the best a submissive can hope for is to be labeled and condescended to as a damaged victim choosing submission as a way of healing from or processing past trauma and abuse.
Whether or not it's difficult to accept that the desire to be demeaned is not a product of a society that seeks to objectify women, I would argue that, regardless of appearance, by its very nature BDSM is constantly about consent. Of course, its language and rules differ significantly from vanilla sexual scenes, but the very existence of a safe word is the ultimate in preventing violation -- it suggests that at any moment, regardless of expectations or interpretations on the part of either party, the act can and will end. Ignoring the safe word is a clear act of violation that is not up for any debate. Because of this, BDSM sex, even with all its violent connotations, can be much "safer" than non-safe-word sex. While not very romantic in the traditional sense, the rules are clear -- at any moment a woman (or man) can say no, regardless of the script she (or he) is using.
The safe, sane, and consensual BDSM landscape is made up of stringent rules and safe practices designed to protect the feelings of everyone involved and to ensure constant, enthusiastic consent. The culture could not exist if this were not the case; a submissive participates in power exchange because a safe psychological space is offered up to do so. That space creates an opportunity for a display of endurance, a relief from responsibility, and feelings of affection and security. Before any "scene" begins, the rules are made clear and the limitations agreed upon.
Finding a partner or dom to play with is the ultimate achievement in trust, and giving someone the power to hurt you for pleasure is both liberating and powerful. The more I embrace submissive sexuality, the more I come to learn that, despite all appearances to the contrary, consensual, respectful SM relationships generally dismantle the very tropes that rape culture is founded on.
A dom/sub dynamic doesn't appear to promote equality, but for most serious practitioners, the trust and respect that exist in power exchange actually transcend a mainstream "woman as object" or rape mentality. For BDSM to exist safely, it has to be founded on a constant proclamation of enthusiastic consent, which mainstream sexuality has systematically dismantled.
This, of course, doesn't mean that BDSM culture is without blame or responsibility. Despite the obvious fact that domination and submission (and everything that comes with them) are in the realm of elaborate fantasy, it is interesting to examine how those lifestyle choices and depictions (both mainstream and countercultural) influence an overall rape culture that seeks to demean and demoralize woman. While consensual, informed BDSM is contrary to rape culture, more mainstream (or nonfetish) pornography that even vaguely simulates rape (of the "take it, bitch" and "you know you like it" variety) is quite the opposite. When those desires specific to BDSM are appropriated, watered down and corrupted, the complex rules that the counterculture is founded on are completely disposed of.
Herein lies the problem -- with the advent and proliferation of Internet pornography, the fantasy of rape, torture and bondage becomes an issue of access. No longer reserved for an informed, invested viewer who carefully sought it out after a trip to a fetish bookstore, BDSM is represented in every porn portal on the Internet. The average computer user can have instant access to a full catalog of BDSM practices, ranging from light, soft-core spanking to hard-core torture, in a matter of seconds. This kind of constant, unrestrained availability trains viewers who don't have a BDSM cultural awareness, investment or education to believe that what women want is to be coerced and, in some cases, forced into acts they don't consent to. Over the years, various interpretations of the genre have made it into straight porn, without any suggestion of artifice -- women on leashes, in handcuffs, gagged, tied up and told to "like it" are all commonplace imagery in contemporary pornography.
While the serious BDSM practitioner thrives on that artifice, the average young, male, heterosexual porn audience member begins to believe that forcing women into sex acts is the norm -- the imagery's constant, instant availability makes rape and sex one and the same for the mainstream viewer. Couple that private home viewing to get off with the proliferation of graphic crime shows on prime-time television and torture porn masquerading as "psychological thrillers" in theaters, and our cultural imagery screams that "women as sexual victims" is an acceptable reality. For someone who is raised, and reaches sexual maturity, in this environment, the idea of forcing a woman into a sex act seems, although logically "wrong," completely commonplace and possibly quite sexy.
The appropriation of BDSM imagery is problematic because while community members understand that it is important to be sensitive to the needs, boundaries and rules of players in order for a scene to function fairly and enjoyably, mainstream porn is primarily about getting off as quickly as possible. Add to that a disgraceful lack of sexual education (both in safety and in pleasure) across the country and a general belief perpetuated by the media that women are sex objects to be consumed, and you have a rape culture that started by borrowing from BDSM's images without reading its rules.
This reality raises some interesting questions for safe, sane and consensual BDSM practitioners. If, as someone who identifies as a sexual submissive, you like to fantasize about being raped, are you now complicit in this pervasive rape culture? Are you not only complicit, but also key in perpetuating the acceptability of violence, regardless of how private and personal your desire is? From another perspective -- are you actually a victim? Is your fantasy merely a product of a culture that coerces you into believing that kind of violence is acceptable or even desirable?
Alternatively, is your desire (however bastardized and appropriated) still your own -- your fantasy of "nonconsent" yours to choose and act out in a consenting environment? A personal choice when feminist ideology emphasizes choice above all else?
And finally, and perhaps most important, with all of its limitations, safe words, time limits and explicitly negotiated understandings of what is allowed -- is the consensual SM relationship actually the ultimate in trust and collaborative "performance," its rules and artifice the very antithesis of rape?
Paradoxically, sexual submission and rape fantasy can only be acceptable in a culture that doesn't condone them. On a simplistic level, a fetish is only a fetish when it falls outside the realm of the real, and, as I mentioned, the reason why some feminists fear or loathe the BDSM scene is that it is all too familiar. When a woman is subjected to (or enjoying, depending on who is viewing and participating) torture, humiliation and pain, many feminists see the 6 o'clock news, not a pleasurable fantasy, regardless of context. Even someone who identifies as a sexual submissive, someone like me, can understand why it's difficult to view these scenes objectively. Many fantasies are taboo for precisely that reason -- it's close to impossible to step beyond the notion that a man interested in domination is akin to a rapist, or that if a woman submits she is a helpless victim of rape culture. But consenting BDSM practitioners would argue that their community at large responsibly enacts desires without harm, celebrating female desire and (as is so fundamental in dismantling rape culture) making (her) pleasure central.
As a community, feminists need to truly examine whether or not it's condescending to say to a woman who chooses the fantasy of rape that she is a victim of a culture that seeks to demean, humiliate and violate women, whether or not it's acceptable to accuse her of being misguided, misinformed or even mentally ill.
The reality is that when two people consent to fabricate a scene of nonconsent in the privacy of their own erotic lives, they are not consenting to perpetuate the violation of women everywhere. The true problem lies in mainstream pornography's appropriation of fetish tropes -- while BDSM practitioners are generally serious about and invested in the ideological beliefs behind their lifestyle choices, the average mainstream porn user doesn't usually take the time to understand the finer points of dominance and submission (or consent and safety) before he casually witnesses a violation scene in a mainstream pornographic film or image.
While early black-and-white fantasy films of Bettie Page being kidnapped and tied up by a group of insatiable femmes are generally viewed as light, harmless, erotic fun, that kind of imagery, when injected into mainstream pornography (and even Hollywood), can have epic cultural ramifications. Sadly, gratuitous depictions of violence against women on the big screen have effectively taken the taboo-play element out of fetish imagery. Bombarded with an onslaught of violent images in which a woman is the victim, viewers fail to see where fantasy and fetish end and reality begins.
BDSM pornography is so excruciatingly aware of its own ability to perpetuate the idea that women yearn to be violated that it actually fights against that myth. At the end of almost every authentic BDSM photo set, you'll see a single appended photo of the participants, smiling and happy, assuring us that what we've seen is theater acted out by consenting adults, proving that fetish porn often exists as a careful, aware construct that constantly references itself as such.
The reality is that the activities and pornographic imagery of BDSM culture are problematic only because we have reached a point where a woman's desire is completely demeaned and dismissed. If women's pleasure were paramount, this argument (and the feminist fear of sexual submission) wouldn't exist. When women are consistently depicted as victims of both violence and culture, it's difficult to see any other possibilities. Feminists have a responsibility not only to fight and speak out against the mainstream appropriation of BDSM, but also to support BDSM practitioners who endorse safe, sane and consensual practice.
When the mainstream appropriation of BDSM models is successfully critiqued, dismantled and corrected, a woman can then feel safe to desire to be demeaned, bound, gagged and "forced" into sex by her lover. In turn, feminists would feel safe accepting that desire, because it would be clear consensual submission. Because "she was asking for it" would finally be true.

brown_eyed_girl
Member

58 Posts
12/08
Posted - Jan 2 2009 : 3:15AM
I think the key point here is that of choice. It's not that progressive society is trying to eliminate sex roles, it's just trying to free us all up as individuals to choose our roles based on our own preferences without regard to gender. Personally I definitely like my men to be assertive and to take charge, but then I also like to take charge of things (nothing beats a middle-of-the-night rousing where I'm thoroughly in charge).
It's terribly boring if you only ever have it one way. I think the majority of people like to switch it up.
greg
Member

Thinking real hard about Katsirk
793 Posts
12/06
Posted - Jan 2 2009 : 12:06PM
I agree totally for established relationships. I was thinking more of the typical first time encounters, or maybe the pathway for two to become lovers or a pair, and with the realization it will always be a variation that depends on the individuals involved.
I can only speak for myself but I think men have been feminized to a certain degree. I am not talking about daily roles; I want us to be progressive in those regards. But up until my mid 20s I had discarded the idea that the male in most cases should be the aggressor, and it cost me some. I know it has to be a conflicted world for females as well, that it also is not an absolute thing, and a man has to know when a women is not open to his assertiveness, otherwise he will be a total asshole. But I do think young men should coached more to be more assertive in this regard.
That if his heart is skipping a few beats over a girl he had better have a plan. To do the work, be well groomed, stand tall, and be prepared to smoothly initiate conversation. When I take my son to a restaurant I always encourage him to look at the usually female waitress in the eye, and to ask her name or some question.
I believe that growing up I always felt a social pressure that was in place, maybe too much of an emphasis on being a good boy was in enforced. I was raised in a religious fundy thumper type of home and that could have been a big contributor, as well any number if hang ups that develop during adolescence.
But still it took me some time to ever feel any confidence about my natural impulses or maybe what could be called my male instincts. I would have scored more and had better relations in those early years with a little more knowledge of these things, and been happier.
Kimi Lixx
Senior Member

2012 Posts
6/01
Posted - Jan 2 2009 : 1:18PM
I don't think it's the "majority of women" preferring men be assertive. I think both men and women would like the object of their attraction to be assertive and remove any doubt that they are desired. I think it's more that the biological resource of sexually desirable women is scarcer than that of men, putting the assertive burden on males.
I think women are typically less secure, because socially we have a more precarious role. Our sexual desirability is closely linked to our age and appearance. However, we're in high demand. Culturally, we're put in positions insisting that we hoard our sexual resources. Biologically, we're driven to be picky. Given the social insecurity, cultural and biological pressures, it really isn't amazing to find that women are, and likely prefer to be, pursued, rather than pursuing.
What I always found interesting as an escort was that, almost universally, the men wanted to have an assertive and desiring partner, NOT a submissive - no matter what the submissive would do for them. Their pursuit ended with booking the appointment.
I have been profoundly submissive. Probably because I was seriously damaged by my childhood, as well as growing up with a significant middle eastern influence. My boyfriend rejects this. He refuses to indulge in any kind of selfishness in bed. Completely refuses, to the point where I am left feeling like there is absolutely nothing I can do for him, except exist as the object of his attention. It's been the best sex I have ever had. I mean, like, nothing else even remotely comes close. Like, so much that I was kinda worried about it at first. In the last 8 months I become assertive. I think I like it better this way.
brown_eyed_girl
Member

58 Posts
12/08
Posted - Jan 2 2009 : 5:07PM
I think religious fundy childhoods generally damage people in a psycho-sexual way since it's all based on suppressing natural urges, sin and shame. I don't have any first-hand experience though so...
Anyway, yeah if you mean women want a man who's not a doormat, not just a "nice guy" - that he's got some drive then I agree. But I also don't think anyone is more pressured to be "good" than young girls, and that through all of history generally women have been taught/forced into a more sexually chaste sphere. So my point is that I think we're all confused about what we want, and that it's this notion of "roles" based on generalizing about men or women which just adds to the confusion. I think everybody has their own unique 100% individual sexual "orientation" and we all have to learn how to relate to each individual.
 
greg
Member

Thinking real hard about Katsirk
793 Posts
12/06
Posted - Jan 2 2009 : 6:18PM
I agree and you are right about the girls being more pressured to be good girls. Maybe I am basing things to much on my experience.
One last thought, (and like everything else I have written here it is just a wild ass guess) but I think parents tend to think of how to steer their children away from trouble. If any sex education is taught by them, it is more about how not to get in trouble, or not be an embarrassment to the family, with almost all, if not all of the intent is aimed at suppression.
For example my dads main point was to stress that I use a rubber and he even gave me one , but he never really gave much advice to steer me toward success, or stressed points about things he had learned that would be helpful with women. It was more like "oh shit, here comes big problems" which is true but still unavoidable. In some ways I was just learning how to live and that would have been a good opportunity for some coaching.
I should probably stop rambling, I am not sure I can really articulate all of my thoughts precisely and concisely.

Edited by - greg on 1/2/2009 6:21:52 PM

Breeze
Member

One Smokin Hot Chic
532 Posts
11/08
Posted - Jan 3 2009 : 2:03PM
This is a most interesting read Greg, I have enjoyed reading the posts also. One thing I would like to add is that we should move to separate ourselves from gender roles. Not all women are submissive and not all men are aggressive. The BDSM lifestyle is so many different things to so many different people, it is really almost mind boggling. There really is no "right" way but to many people there is most definitely a "wrong" way, and the wrong way is the way that doesn't coincide with the person who views it as "wrong."
The BDSM lifestyle as some call it has been grouped together but we really need to look at what it stands for. Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism. Then you get into the Dominant and Submissive roles which have to be tailored on an individual level. It is possible to have a Dominant Masochist. It is also very possible to have a Submissive Sadist.
Now the article you referenced talks a great deal about rape fantasies, which somehow get tossed into the BDSM Culture. I think that rape fantasies are thrown into BDSM because they have no where else to go. It is a journey, and when a person takes a journey exploring rape fantasies they find themselves classified as a person into "BDSM" when they may have very little interest in the BDSM lifestyle at all.
People involved in the BDSM culture, (I have debated with myself on whether or not to call it a subculture) generally welcome everybody with open arms which is fascinating.
Sub missives, Dominants and Sexual Deviants all seem to come together accepting each other for who they are and not who they want them to be. I use the term sexual deviant loosely because many in the "BDSM" lifestyle call them fetishists.
Most people are submissive by nature, people want somebody to take care of them and this doesn't only apply to women. People want to wake up in the morning and know that things will be alright, they want to know that the sky isn't going to fall, they want to know that if their car breaks down they can rely on somebody else to take care of them. Being submissive is a dream to many and often times they are lured into the lifestyle with promises that are broken.
Sexual Deviants on the other hand are generally self sufficient and when the business of performing depraved acts is over, they go home and do it again next week, they are really neither submissive or dominant when it comes to the "Lifestyle."
Dominants are generally the most fucked up people psychologically which would account for all the different definitions of a Dom/Sub, Master/Slave relationship. No two are alike and they shouldn't be. It becomes this "Macho" thing that many "Dominants" get involved in, a test of testosterone between peers, and women get the testosterone kick too, so I'm not being gender specific.
I kinda went off here on a ramble but a person who wants to get raped isn't necessarily a submissive which the article suggests. There are many "Submissive people" who have no desire to get "raped."
BlackSix All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07
Posted - Feb 5 2009 : 5:18AM
Great post by Kimi.

Myself, I don't buy the claims that any particular sub/dom tendency is inherent to gender, or at least the social and the natural are too entwined to be considered distinct. A chicken or the egg situation. If these sexual roles were so 'natural' why would they need to be so rigidly enforced by social norms?
Edited by - BlackSix on 2/5/2009 5:23:33 AM
WardqueenJanine
Member

914 Posts
2/08
Posted - Feb 5 2009 : 8:37PM
Both excellent points; As one who is is switchable I have to say that my predominant preference is to be dominant and in that role I have absolutely no masochistic tendencies. Dominance, at least to me is a bifurcated issue. Sexually dominant is to control the pleasure, sexual fulfillment and satisfaction of one's partner. This accomplished on occasion through the denial of just that. On the other hand, I suppose what could be called "Pain" or purely physical dominance is the sexual excitement and fulfillment of one's own desired strictly through eh infliction of physical pain or discomfort on his/her partner. Now, when it comes to submission, indeed it is not unusual to have a sadistic affectation. My personal feeling is that a certain amount of sadism must be present to be a submissive as there is an obvious desire to inflict pain upon oneself, albeit by the hand of another. By extension, it wouldn't take much of a stretch to extend that to others.
With respect to the rape I would say Breeze that you are square on with that one. Rape is a viable fantasy to live out between consenting partners if that is their mutual desire however there is no connection between rape and BDSM. While a major component of BDSM is the psychological aspect of it, a good deal more is the actual physical sensation and I don't necessarily mean the receiving or infliction exclusively of pain. To illustrate, the act of tying, chaining, lacing and restraining of a struggling partner, male or female, is a source of major arousal for me. Rape on the other hand really has no connection, directly or indirectly to BDSM. It is strictly an act of sexual control where the sex act is the main source of that control.
Breeze
Member

One Smokin Hot Chic
532 Posts
11/08
Posted - Feb 7 2009 : 4:50AM
Okay, I have not only been doing a lot of research on this subject, but consensual rape is kinda my thing. Ok, it is MY thing. I have come to the conclusion that a person (which is where my problem with the linked article lies, MEN have the same fantasies)who wants to be raped has submissive tendencies but may or may not want to live that life 24/7. Idea's about submission are just those, Idea's and nothing more. An idea is about as valid as an op-ed in my opinion. MEN have the same idea's and when people write op-eds based on idea's is where the problem lies. It is easy to "think" about things and try to rationalize them but it is a whole different story living it. Rape is both a psychological and physical experience. Consensual Rape is where a person feels safe enough to give up all for a brief moment in their life but not actively participate in the BDSM lifestyle if that makes any sense. I will share a personal email with you all to help you understand this fantasy and the obvious parts are edited. I changed my real name to the screen name and omitted the location.
Edited by - Breeze on 3/18/2009 10:15:42 PM
mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04
Posted - May 2 2009 : 12:58PM
As a woman who is a natural submissive with 'rape' fantasies, and also being a fetish film producer, I find this thread particularly interesting.
For many years, I've struggled against the 'establishment' of 'the industry' in terms of being able to express these fantasies through my film work. While my films are wrapped in story, which to me, makes the 'fictional' aspect obvious, I've always had trouble finding distribution, to the point that I've ended up conceding to do distribute my own work.
And I'm not alone. It's why you don't see very much realistic rape fantasy available, and it's virtually non existent in 'mainstream' porn.
The issue is, and always has been consent. Like all 'alternative' lifestyles and tastes in various fetishes, the pleasure comes from safe and sane PLAY. The responsible use of 'safe words', understanding, experienced partners, and in the case of film production, having professionals on set, make these types of films not just possible to produce but also enjoyable to watch, without that 'creepy' feeling of not knowing if what you are seeing is real or not.
Oddly, the United States is one of the few Countries who still prosecute creative people for creative work, based on a bias against things they don't understand, and worse... afraid to learn anything about.
No woman wants to be raped. That's fact, and anyone who thinks otherwise, is under educated and should pick up a book now and then. Rape is about violence, not the exchange of power and control that gives so many of us that certain 'rush'.
- Marie
Cryogenix
Member

84 Posts
3/06
Posted - May 2 2009 : 1:20PM
I think one important element you failed to touch on is insecurity. Many women (even great-looking ones) are insecure and have self-esteem issues and hang-ups about their bodies, and thus if not "taken aggressively" by their man (at least, in the early stages of an evolving relationship) they're more likely not to let go and really surrender to the pleasures of sex. If not whisked away and "forced" into pleasure, she might be too busy thinking about how her thunder thighs look to her partner or if he thinks her breasts are too small or is he repulsed by the cellulite forming on her ass, etc. She'll be too preoccupied with what SHE thinks the man may be thinking about her instead of enjoying the sensations of the act. When you take a woman passionately, all hangups and insecurities are gone, and both partners are free to purely enjoy the moment.
And, yes, it works the same for men. We'd rather take you fast and furious and transport your mind to a wonderful, blissful place of passion and confusion, so that we don't feel like you're judging our performance or thinking our cock isn't big enough.
Another important element is acceptance (or maybe choice). Everyone has hangups. Some men refuse to explore anal play (even with a willing female partner) for fear they might be viewed as gay or less of a man. But, enter BDSM (especially if submitting to a Dominatrix or Goddess) where you're being "forced" to accept anal penetration, and now it's okay. It wasn't your "choice" to get buttfucked - your hands were tied and you just had to grin and bear it. :) Likewise, many women want to be dirty sluts for/with their man, but don't want to lose their respect or be viewed as cheap and easy, so they don't fulfill those urges and thus don't enjoy sex as much as they could. But, enter a lover who's into dirty talk and encourages her to say she's a slut while taking her aggressively, and she's okay with that and will enjoy the experience more. In both cases, there is acceptance of events because the "choice" for the fuckees has been eliminated; they're being told what to do instead of choosing it. Sometimes, "freedom of choice" is a bad thing.
Edited by - Cryogenix on 5/2/2009 2:01:41 PM
Pagoda
Senior Member

Thread Killer
1747 Posts
10/05
Posted - May 2 2009 : 5:18PM
^^ Dead on. Excellent points. Lack of choice in the right person's care can be the ultimate in liberation.
I found the discussion in this thread fascinating, until it derailed. Supplemental reading.
In my case, I respond best to physical domination. He can order me around all he wants in the bedroom, but I'm not going to submit until he makes me. I feel safe and feminine when he exerts and checks his strength. I enjoy having pleasure forced on me. I like being held down and manhandled. To date, I dislike verbal and mental humiliation, but I'm not ruling that out as a turn-on for the future. The thing is, none of this works for me if he doesn't prove himself a worthy mate outside of sex. He must be a good, tender father to our children. He must show care for my overall well-being. I've discovered that I have a very animalistic view of sex, and I respond on a deep, primitive level. I want to be taken by my mate, because that's what an alpha male apex predator does. It turns me way on, and makes me feel girly. Right now I prefer spontaneous, explosive sex. Maybe someday when I've gotten that out of my system, I'll like the structure of choreographed scenes, rules, and role-playing.
Edited by - pagoda on 5/2/2009 5:22:13 PM



Jump To: