I don't know about the US. But here in the EU we have very strict regulations about the amount of Nicotine and tar in cigarettes. We also have regulations for the labeling with statements like SMOKING KILLS IN A SLOW AND PAINFUL WAY.
I think that would be a nice start for adult DVDs too. If every anal cream pie DVD were labeled with something like AIDS TRANSMITTED THROUGH ANAL CREAM PIES KILLS IN A SLOW AND PAINFUL WAY.
In motorsport, even a minor accident can be fatal w/o basic safety measures. I'm surprised you don't see the difference here.
Edited by - Zoid on 8/25/2005 6:55:42 PM
[Link]
Ejac Deactivated User
851 Posts 9/04
Posted - Aug 25 2005 : 6:54PM
In another thread, I've stated that I used to be a huge consumer of porn. Since the beginning of this year, I doubt I've bought a dozen titles. I'm finding that much like girls I hang with, it's the quality that counts - not the quantity.
A boycott of this nature will never work for many many reasons.
Here's the thing. It all comes down to basic economics in a capitilistic system. Demand and supply. As long as customers want to see anal creampies , producers will continue to produce it. The dangers of anal creampies and HIV are quite well known in the porn community and still girls are willing to do this as they feel the monetary compensation is worth the risk.
Your wanting to ban this act is rather unrealistic. There are many jobs out there that are dangerous. The fact is that with high risk comes high return.
The small problem with all this is that i think the pornstars are not quite aware of how they should play this scenario out. In a free market system it should go something like this :
The risks involved with anal creampies are made available. The female pornstars act accordingly and start to refuse to perform these acts with only a few being still willing to do it for extra monetary compensation. As a result fewer anal creampie pictures are released and because of the scarcity of these products the demand for these products go up and the price goes up accordingly. Producers see this increase in demand and try desperately to keep the supply in touch with the demand. This would entail offering LARGE amounts of money way above the average scene fee to any and all girls willing to perform this act. etc etc ...
i realise this will not really solve the HIV problem but what it will do is at least make sure that those willing to do anal creampies are rather well compensated.
This is how something like this would be handled if the female pornstars had a trade union.
Still ... all these girls are old enough to decide for themselves and if they feel the potential gains outweigh the potential risks then it is their right to be able to make that choice.
On a personal note i have to say i like creampies in general. I mean a creampie is afterall the most realistic ending to a sexual encounter. I mean who in the real world whips his dick out just as he is about to cum and shoots on the girls face and in her hair! So while i will support any decision taken by the porn industry i would think it sad to lose anything in the creampie genre.
Same here. I did not know there was so many. I applaud girls and studio that make and distribute any anal creampie movies. I am certain all the girls who do it for the camera enjoy it just as much behind the camera so why not and get paid extra for it and give the fans what they really want?
Mod: RLD Fiend. Learn to live with it, mate. Anywhere else in the world the term has no racial overtones at all, so perhaps you'd be better off being a citizen of the world instead of only your neck of the woods and read people's posts in context.
If I (Australian) or Juha (German, I think) call someone "boy" it means a different thing to if someone from.. Alabama calls someone the same word. You're not a stupid person by any means, and so I'm sure you know enough to make the judgement yourself.
Unless you'd prefer to be stepped on in turn whenever you use a normal word that has a different meaning to someone else, in some part of the world.
On with the topic! ('till it devolves to personal insults and gets locked, anyway..)
Why pick on Alabama? You're stereotyping, son. The use of "boy" is more of a Southernism than anything else. It had racial overtones when used by a white to address an adult black male but like a lot of those things it's rather archaic these days. People use "boy" in ways that are{/I] attached to a certain redneck association, often humorously and self-consciously so (see Cracker Zen and the Cobalt Way of Knowledge Crawfish Press, 1995), but it's kind of old-school to say the least.
Devilish derailment and crawdaddy crackerisms and nigh nasty namecalling.
WOOOooooo-weee! What we got here? Failure to communicate? Tell you what:
Do the invocations, say the incantations, tend the ministrations and pass the libations! *POOF*! Here I am.
What now, boys?
I think some people live to please. Some have nothing to offer of their own and live off the toil of others. Some see nothing but dollar signs and feel nothing, nothing, nothing. Some have pet monkeys. Some see windmills everywhere. Some have fun at others' expense. Some hate themselves and build themselves up tearing others down. Some judge. Some gnash teeth. Some wail. Some just sit idly by and pick their nose. What a thread!
Ain't no black and white here. Me? I'm taking the middle road. The scenic route. The long way or the shortcut. Won't know til we get there. Where we going? Don't matter much. This train now boarding...
Choo! Choo!
Chugga chugga, chugga chugga, all night long, through small towns, past abandoned factories, here fields for miles on end, there stands of trees a hundred years old, now a city teeming with life, car lights snaking through its streets like plasma in an electric bloodstream, and always, everywhere, the same things: people who think they're right, people who know better, those who don't give a damn one way or another, and the people who love them, hate them, know them, fighting, kissing, sleeping, screaming, gambling, learning ..
ADT, you beautiful thing. Look at you go.
It's as good a night as any to decide if what you're living for is worth dying for.
I stole part of that from a church sign. I don't have much faith, not for a long time, but that tastes good rolling off the keyboard.
It tastes like truth.
Yeah, nah, I got nothing of substance to add. All style, no substance. Know what I believe? I believe I'll have another drink.
The act in question should be banned outright. It's unsafe and human life is far more important than satisfying a few people who's lives wouldn't have any meaning if they couldn't see oozing buttholes.
There are stupid people everywhere, porn is certainly no exception. Some dumb chick may be willing - most likely out of desperation - to do anal creampies, but just because she's not smart enough to see the danger, it doesn't mean she should be put in harm's way.
Creepy tranny sex - especially condomless tranny sex - should be banned as well. You know what, throw in all of Brazil, too. The only thing good to come from there is the thong, and that was long ago. The rules and regulations over there are way too shady.
Edited by - - random - on 8/26/2005 1:16:52 AM
[Link]
chocolate_cougar Deactivated User
Dumb & Dumber 57 Posts 7/05
Posted - Aug 26 2005 : 2:24AM
Would you agree with me that this right ends in the very moment you put other people at risk who are performers that do not want to take such a risk?
We all should have learnt by now that with the current testing methods and intervals there is still a time-window big enough to infect other people once a performer, despite being tested regulary, catched the HIV virus.
Further in another thread on a hungarian message board Dr. Denes Banhegyi wrote this: "Epidemic statistics showing the fact that at the very early stage of HIV infection there’s a much higher risk of further diffusion of the HIV infection because of the high number of viruses in the infected body."
We all know the viral load is highest in blood and semen and that creampies therefore belong to the highest risks acts a talent can do. In my opinion performers who still shot cps have the obligation to notify those talent who decided to not do these acts anymore, given they work on the same set. If both work together within a few days the idea of risk management is driven ad absurdum, as these performer endanger NOT ONLY themselves anymore but also the cautious ones.
If fewer anal creampie scenes are released there is less risk for everyone, although far from being satisfactory this sounds like a positive result too. However instead of just raising the rates I would much prefer to raise awareness for the health risks and social responsibility every producer has.
Besides Tricia Devereaux, Mason has now announced she has also abandoned creampie shots for her future projects.
I would think to lose a person is sad too, but of course everyone assigns priorities differently, it's freedom of choice after all.Since I am no native english speaker I had to look up "grandstanding" in Google and found this "Grandstanding means an insincere display, put on more for public consumption than any practical relevance."
If this definition is right (I really don't know) then I have to ask who is subjected to be 'insincere'? and why does a thread like this have no 'practical relevance'?
With a thread like this being on top of the porn pool every day it becomes some relevance, as lots of performers read it. And if just one of them decides to not shot this act anymore because s/he doesn't want to put neither her/himself nor any other performer at risk than it is already a success. Also being a top issue more and more industry folks speak their mind. Why on earth should one person being vocal about this issue be enough?
Well, one could say if one hurts the company as a whole by abandoning all their product one does more pressure (always assuming such a list has any significant effect on the sales, which I doubt). However you, of course, have a point that if one would take some time a more specialized list could be done, which does not weaken the argument above but has the benefit of having a more friendly approach towards the pornfan, who has desires too, like seeing their favorite star in a movie with no creampies put out by a blacklisted company.
If you'd know me better, you'd also know why I have not invested this extra work (yet). 1. I am damn lazy and 2. I am damn lazy. 3. I have no idea how to do that in reasonable amounts of time and I did not make up my mind yet where to draw the line. Since 'rules' should rather give a direction than constrict peoples freedom I'd even turn a blind eye in case a fan buys a DVD with their favorite casts knowing it contains one 'unwanted creampie scence'. A 'caring' fan after my heart would of course not buy or rent the 'Allinternal #317 Compilation' or any other line devoted entirely to this fetish. That's of course just my take.
for me it is meant to get the ball rolling, of course I don't need to tell you that success is subjective too. Every fan, producer or performer drawing a reasonable conclusion from these typ of threads is a success.
-
Just as an aside in at the beginning of the year there was a new kind of "Super-AIDS" virus discovered in New York area, the aggressive new strain is resistant to 19 of 20 drugs used to fight the HIV virus and becomes full-blown AIDS in months, not years. Given such things, it seems you can't talk about prevention enough.
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Aug 26 2005 : 2:38AM
In this other thread about anal creampies, a couple of us have talked about how the turnover rate of girls in porn is very high, and about how, for various reasons, there are still many girls who don't know that anal creampies are any riskier for catching an STD like HIV or Hep C than just normal anal sex without the anal internal.
Some people are very sincere. And there's a lot of good discussion to have. But there's also a "soapbox" aspect to these types of threads at ADT, and, well, I guess that's just inevitable. Perhaps this particular one is more on-topic and less troll-inducing than some of the others.
I do wonder at the fact of barely 18-year-old girls plunging headfirst into the gnarliest aspects of the industry. I always thought it would be better to raise the age to 21 -- but that won't happen. Perhaps if AIM really is trying to educate the newbies, that's the best place to start.
Now don't go putting concepts into all American heads! The word "boy" - like most words - is either deragatory, complimetary or nuetral depending on the context in which it is used. I personally know of no one who abstains totally from its use!
Mod note (ie, note for the mod ;) - please stop trying to shut down any and all threads I start. Thank you.Some hide in chaos. Some bury their fears. Some ride their indignation to the end of the line. Some are happy in ignorance. It takes all sorts, right.
Good God this rusty breastplate chafes, I should have used lube. Now, get the fuck out the way, I fancy a tilt at that giant behind you. Just look at his arms whirl...
In the Darkness of future past, The wizard longs to see. One chance out between two worlds, Fire walk with me.
Aside from sheer laziness there's also the excuse that money from cream pie productions will be spent on their other lines and vice versa. Don't particularly want any money I may hand over going towards funding these dangerous acts.
mod note: Since we have two active threads that now revolve around HIV in the industry, I'd like posters to stick to the issues related to the blacklist in this one (ie, can it be effective, should it cover all products, etc.) and use the other thread for the more general discussion of HIV infection in the industry. Hopefully, that will help all interested parties keep track of what's been said and reduce repitition.
It works for the person whose pleasure in watching a movie is disturbed by watching acts which are not on par with his morals/ethics. Just like it works for people to "boycot" Dorcel and Vivid because they are repelled by the safety requirements these producers enforce.I am inclined to say that freedom of choice seems to be in existance for this very act. But my gut feeling is, that "informed consent" is not given on many occasions regarding this act.Full ACK. This is why I have a problem with bans on anything, but it would be nice if both contestants (producer and performers) would establish some system which guarantees "informed consent" and "freedom of choice".
The creampie issue probably lacks on the "informed consent" aspect, condom use on the "freedom of choice" aspect.
Pre WWII and also in the 50ies there were numerous minor and even major accidents where no one was harmed.
But nobody would demand that drivers and riders should man vehicles which have fuelage lines running through the cockpit - the analogon to creampies (other than in historical events, which have much stricter safety issues nowadays). If you would ask somebody to race without safety belts, helmets, nomex suit or leather and protectors everybody would call you insane. (You have to wear a nomex suit, when running such a rolling gasoline bomb in a historical race nowadays.)
The analogon to motorsports also lacks because in the beginning the driving force on safety in motorsports was not the concern about active participiants, but safety for the spectators; most notably in the 1955 accident in Le Mans of Pierre Levegh (82 dead), the 1957 accident of de Portago at the Mille Miglia (12 dead) and Jim Clark/Taffy Trips collision in Monza 1961 (15 dead in total).
Luckily or sadly this "outsider driven" force on safety does not exist in the porn biz.
OTOH, dangerous driving/riding (choking?; bringing a car/bike which was extremely unsafe to others, zig-zag driving, creampie?) was even considered inappropriate in motorsports in its fledgeling years and faced penalties by race/series directors and it was not unknown that the veterans made young drivers search their conscience in a manner they would abstain from such unsafe behaviour in the future (zig-zag driving at starts, x*10 creampie scenes?).
If you are sarcastic, then there seem to be caracters in the porn biz which even are against recognising these low level safety requirements which are nothing more than common sense.
BTW, the adult movie biz' term "fake" is known in the mainstream movie industry as "special effects". One might think the mainstream biz is run by adults, the adult biz run by kids.
I have yet to see someone complain because Mr. Arnold Stallone's latest "victim" sheds some red fluid which is not real blood, and if it is done right why should one complain some white fluid leaving the orifices of the latest "victim" of Dick Fuckmehard is not real semen.
It was just a joke, which is why there was a grinning face next to it. I think Scipio once closed a thread I started, so he's clearly evil*, though frankly Bill is the one to really watch out for. He's a thread locking machine!JT? Jim Thomson? I guess 666 should go on there too.
Drew locked the other list of shame thread, and rightly so, considering how it had devolved.
I'm here to protect you, Lee. By being the "heavy" and reminding people to play nice, I actually prolong your thread. But eventually, almost anything that's controversial eventually gets waaay out of hand, people start flaming each other and then..
you know how it goes.. /sigh
scipio
edito-
Ahh, I don't recall. Though you're right, I am ebil. For unrelated reasons.
Does nobody get my sense of humour? :( . . . . . .. .
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Just so you don't get hit with yet another feeling of "why the fuck do I even bother to do this when all I get in return is abuse", please know that I have no qualms with any of the Mods*. They do some sterling work.
Sure, but there were also anal creampies where no one was harmed. Plus Lee says, don't look at totals, look at risks.Naturally, because that in no way affects the perception of race.. for spectators.Yes, but again, this doesn't compare to creampie as a sexual act. Spectators don't even see the drivers, they watch cars.That is a valid point. Although there have been cases where pornstars do gangbang fucking with fans (albeit not finishing with acp, but still)..I think recongizing the risk and having information is very important. It's just that the choice should ultimately be made by talent."if it's done right" is the key phrase. Bullet impacts in Hollywood are merely details in the film. For some people, a cumshot is essential climatic moment of the scene.
of course. do you consider all the potential risks everytime you get out of your house? you could get a car accident.
do you consider it when you eat? there s food poisoning.
what about when you walk around? someone could shoot you or stab you.
our industry is pretty safe, thanks to AIM. of course, the "zero risk" does not exist, as we ve seen it before. But there s much less risks to get HIV in the porn industry than outside. if i had to be scared of eveything, believe me, i d never leave my place and i d become an hermit. i couldn t live like this.
Somehow one field of sport/art/entertainment managed to lower risk levels, even if not every accident was fatal. Although, looking back, we know that running these gasoline bombs called cars was insane. Although we know that cream pies are calling for disaster.The difference is that sports and art aren't made for spectators. Art and sport would even be made or exercised, if there were zero spectators. "Commercialised art", art or sport for the sole purpose of "entertaining", i.e. 99.999999999% of porn play along other rules.
Spectators know that they are only "tolerated", that the athletes are the key. In commercialised art, it is the spectators who are the key.
Or the reason is that the spectators know that the athletes are actually human beings and not crash test dummies, or fuck dolls.The main difference is that a sport would be exercised even if there are no spectators, and the more commercialised a sports get, the more safety requirements are set.
Undoubtedly a Nextel Cup or Formula 1 race provides more safety than the club race of weekend racers at the local track.
Yet, if you look at the "amateur athletes", think Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe, who happen to visit a swinger-club or bdsm-club every now and then, employ more safety devices, are more concerned about safety than the "professional athletes" of the porn biz. Probably the "professional athletes" would be banned because of not following the "code of safety conduct" if they acted like "professionals" in an "amateur" contest.
Porn is bizarro world.
So incompetence in "faking" (adults call it SFX) an internal cumshot is an excuse for accepting unnecessary risks in commercialised art?
Anyway Julia Ann even made a statement on her website that doing hardcore isn't the right thing for a girl like her who's grown up in a small town with strong moral beliefs . A few weeks later she signed with Wicked.
do you know what is as risky as a creampie scene, and that every girl (ok, 90%) does? an anal scene with a guy who uses Carverject (or whatever the name is). some guys use this to make their cock hard. it s a needle they stick in their cock. this leaves an open area for bacterias to infect other peolple, just by fucking.
no need for a creampie. do anal with a needle guy whos infected, you ll be too.
body fluids... and blood s the worse.
hope my explanation was clear. i was back in France for 3 weeks last month and know i can barely speak english anymore.
Thanks, Melissa, Your explanation was clear. Your English is really good. Always thought you were a native speaker until I saw you in a Wicked-BTS with your cute French accent.
The rate of HIV infections in the U.S. is approximately 17:100,000/year
The rate of HIV infections in porn is approximately 1:1000/year
Good luck Melissa
[Link]
chocolate_cougar Deactivated User
Dumb & Dumber 57 Posts 7/05
Posted - Aug 26 2005 : 2:41PM
Oh well I'm sorry then, I should have known better
Tony C, thanks for addressing this urban legend.
all these desperate anal-ogies to shift responsibility onto performers alone and trying to find some bizarre way to rationalize the risks away (on both sides) won't help to change what every one with some common sense left is able to realize:
- a producer with conscience bears responsibility for the people s/he employs, if you can't make money without putting people at unreasonable risks you are the one to get a new job.
- a fan of sound mind does not request creampies as s/he realizes people are put at unreasonable risks.
- given the high fluctuatuion in the talent pool in LA there is a good chance not every talent is sufficiently informed, however
- even if a talent is well informed about the risks and nonetheless decides to engage in such high risk behaviour s/he puts her sexpartners at risk who don't do it (anymore), think about it.
Edited by - chocolate_cougar on 8/26/2005 3:09:31 PM
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Aug 26 2005 : 3:22PM
Well, I've been wanting to say this for awhile, but I was hesitant, because I didn't want to come off as being a hypocrite.
I absolutely LOVE the feeling of a guy cumming inside of me. To feel his dick get harder and harder and bigger is an amazing feeling. Believe me, I can understand why girls like it. Unfortunately, I realized too late that I wasn't invincible and that HIV doesn't happen to just 'other people' (as in people other than me). If I had not been so young and feeling so invulnerable, I may have decided that feeling a guy cum inside of me may have been better to save for someone I was monogamous with. However, even then, I felt 'safe enough' with the HIV testing.
Ironically, I had done a vaginal creampie on-camera once before that. I totally regretted it. I was on the pill, but I was still freaked out about the VERY small possibility that I could still get pregnant. Pre-cum never really scared me as much for some reason. How was I NOT freaked out after the internal anal about the VERY small possibility that it was more risky to get an STD from that? I'll never really be able to answer that very well.
As I've said before, I have no problems if a girl knows all the risks and still decides to do something. I'm just nervous that some people are trying to downplay the risks for selfish reasons.
Melissa: I didn't realize there were any American porn guys who still used Caverject. I thought they had all switched over to Viagra. Even when guys did (or do) use Caverject, the female is not at a significantly increased risk unless she herself has open areas in her skin (like tears from an anal scene).
Caverject is dangerous for many reasons, but in matters of STDs, it causes a more increased risk to the male, who now has a small open wound, than to the female.
Edited to add: Melissa, I don't know you very well, but you seem like a very intelligent person. I know that you have heard about all the risks that we have been talking about. You have made a decision for yourself, and we need to respect that.
I hope your scene went well, and I continue to wish the best for you.
Edited by - tricia_devereaux on 8/26/2005 3:29:15 PM
Lower risk? Porn has lowered risk by implementing annual testing. The risk isn't eleminated, that's true, just as in any other "dangerous" occupations.I don't follow this. By the same logic, I can say porn isn't defined by viewers either. People would still have sex, film themselves for personal pleasure and get infected with various shitty STDs just the same, and as a matter of fact, they do.Hmm, well, I disagree. Commerce is not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, athletes (and artists) can still do their thing w/o spectators, but no matter what genious you are, you need to put bread on the table, and buy paint and canvas. Financial reward offers athletes opportunity to become better athletes. I personally see the relation between a spectator and a performer as a symbiotic one, not parasitic.I don't think spectators are concerned with this during an exciting race. Really, I don't.F1 doesn't even need drivers. I saw a documentary about it. The computer technology there is so sophisticated, that they can basically race cars as videogame on the monitor. At some point, they were forbidden to improve certain computer driven components, because that indeed made drivers look like puppets. No fun for spectators (and drivers), apparently.It seems to me that in a given context, whether the risk is or is not unnecessary/acceptable, should be decided by whomever takes (or considers taking) it.
Well the irony is that having sex with a woman and coming inside them is the most natural sexual act there is (even anal, really). It's only in porn that it becomes transformed into something freakish and extreme. It's funny, too, because when Randy West first started the trend in Up N Cummers, it was really kind of boring -- that's not PORN SEX, I thought. Ho hum. But, nice for the performers, and perhaps more "couples-friendly." I know female viewers who are just appalled by facials.
So amazingly curious that it's come around to this sort of discussion.
For the sake of comparsion, he's adjust the numerator to yeild a common denominator, i.e.
17 : 100,000 100: 100,000
The size of the denominator is an indication of sample size, i.e. CDC data vs annecdotal porn data.
Before anyone pipe up with "data points!", without changes in testing technology or condom usage, the likelihood is that the only way the annecdotal porn data is going to change is for the worse.
(If the CDC's figures on condom usage are applied to porn, the risk would drop to less than 5:100,000. That's right, if condoms were added to porn's harm reduction strategies, the risk contracting HIV on a porn set could actualy be smaller than the over all risk in the US.)
And for you auto enthusiasts, if you drive the speed limit, wear your seatbelt, and don't get in a car while drunk or with a driver who is drunk, your risk of death in an auto accident is something like 10:100,000/year. I already did the math on another thread. Look it up if you care.
Actually I only put the denominator to 1000 for both groups. I didn't change the facts. I guess you use dots instead of commas. If the risk in porn is 0.17 per 1000. And the risk in the USA in a whole is 1 per 1000. Then the risk to get HIV in porn is about 5 times higher (5.88 to be exact) than in the USA as a whole. Sorry, didn't want to cause confusion. Tried to make it even better to understand.
Posted - Aug 25 2005 : 6:33PM
