I agree with maturelover. Although we dont get to decide the threshold of acceptable racism, I can challenge being labelled a racist based on the preponderance of evidence against.
I believe the staff at IAFD know individuals who confronted racism in the industry, and I an horrified they suffered it, but are specific grievances towards certain companies or individuals, being generalized for the entire industry? As a person of color, involved in the marketing and production in porn, I do not see systemic racism in the content, nor treatment of the performers of color.
This needs specifics. Do you mean the white women in an IR scene is paid more than the black male? If so, hasn't it historically been women being paid more than men in porn, regardless of race? If anything, this sounds like misandry.
A better argument can be made with the pay gap between male performers. With the increased demand of interracial porn, black male porn performers in the last half decade, have commanded higher salaries, sometimes more than the white female talent they perform with, as evidence by VMG offering contracts to black males, and other companies griping about the rising cost of production.
How would a female performer be labelled, if she turned down request for anal sex for the same reason that saving her asshole would command a higher rate? Anal bigotry?I agree with the responsibility the industry has, given the power to shape perceptions, but do not believe a racist narrative is being offered, but the opposite. Interracial porn is overly glorified as being better than white-on-white porn. I cited early examples such as Behind The Green Door, and can point to recent examples at sites like BLACKED, where black males are given roles as doctors, lawyers, even physics professors.
Regarding refusal to work: I have worked with many female pornstars and agents. I have witnessed only one incident where a white female performer, refused to work with an ASIAN performer, based solely on race and without explanation. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have never met a female performer refuse to work with a black male because of race. They have refused because of penis size or perceived penis size, but they have also refused white males who were overly endowed. I must qualify this as personal experience of around 100 female pornstars.
BIPOC
@morbidthoughts, what is your opinion of this group? They claim to represent performers of color and they are campaigning for the reinstatement of the interracial category, albeit with a more inclusive meaning (frankly, I always used the interracial tag to mean sex between two different ethnicities, and not specifically black male, white female)
BIPOC apparently tried to rally the BLACKED male actors against the company, only to be rebuffed. That sounded an awful lot like white knighting.
You questioned whether I have ever read a scientific study, so in response, I provided supporting information about myself which would indicate that I have. Since you couldn't refute that, except perhaps to accuse me of lying about my degree (which, to your credit, you didn't do), you simply moved the goalposts by questioning the value of the degree. This is in spite of the fact that your original question had nothing to do with that and my response was sufficient to address it.
(By the way, I was a double major. I am well aware that an undergraduate degree in anthropology is good for just about nothing, unless you really want to be a librarian or something. I did it mostly because I was fascinated by it.)
So if that's how we're gonna play, and by the way, I'm seeing this sort of rhetorical underhandedness from IAFD's finest as well ("hasn't anyone ever told you to shut the fuck up whiteboi," oh yes, that's nice isn't it, let's just stop having discussions in this place which is explicitly designated as a discussion forum), I'll remind you that rhetorical tricks are the strategy of people who don't have a valid argument.
It's okay. The PC left always seem to resort to these tactics sooner or later. It's far easier to ignore uncomfortable facts than it is to acknowledge them and actually incorporate them into your worldview. That's "misogyny" now --- but, you notice, it's never "misandry." Look, nobody ever said that all women are a formless mass of uniform carbon copies who behave identically. The differences are just trends, which tend to apply to the whole, but of course there are degrees and exceptions.
Women as a group trend toward selectiveness when pursuing sexual partners as compared to their male counterparts. This is not controversial. It is mainstream scientific consensus. There are plenty of good evolutionary reasons why this is the case, but I gather that you're not interested in having that conversation. Let me know if I'm wrong about that and I'd be happy to have it with you. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my (proverbial) breath.
I had a much longer reply in mind when I set out to write this post, but I think that should take care of it.
Edited by - evilpineapples on 6/28/2020 11:29:14 AM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Jun 28 2020 : 11:51AM
I questioned your expertise to discuss with any real knowledge what is 'mainstream' biology and anthropology. A Bachelor degree in one of the social sciences doesn't make you remotely qualified to discuss it.
I have a brother with a PhD in Biochemistry, only at that level would one be qualified to discuss biology and even then only in the area of your specialization.
We've all met the self-important blowhard with a Bachelors in History or Philosophy who thinks that makes them some kind of authority, that is what I was mocking in attempt to forestall some pseudo-scientific ' I read popular science books' babble about men and women..
There's no 'moving goal-posts' because neither you nor I would be allowed on the field let alone near the goal posts.
I don't agree with that. Why are non-PhDs unqualified to discuss biology? We wouldn't be allowed to write our own papers, but simple reading comprehension and awareness of the world around you is all you need to familiarize yourself with the consensus of others. I'm not stating my own opinion here. I'm stating the consensus of the scientific community.
By that logic, you're not qualified to opine on the topic of the IR tag in porn because you aren't a member of the industry.
Edited by - evilpineapples on 6/28/2020 12:36:28 PM
I just did a cursory read of what's out there and it's way more complicated than what you are presenting here. But I guess that's what you get when you generalize a diverse group of people through the lens of just one theory, and apply that theory without any room for intersecting forces.
Well, if morbidthoughts' posts in this thread are indicative of the amount of intellectual brainpower that went into deciding on this course of action for IAFD...
Before the obvious facile response inevitably comes: I won't miss the IR tag. I avoid cringy stereotypical stuff along the lines of "Little White Chicks, Big Black Monster Dicks", which is easy enough to do without the IR moniker highlighting it. Performer-wise I've got no particular hang-ups about anything, although "IR" porn constitutes a relatively small share of what I watch, probably roughly in line with how much people of colour are present in porn. In other words, I neither seek it out in particular, nor do I try to avoid it. It being a non-issue for me personally doesn't change my impression that this is really just poorly disguised and even more poorly thought-through virtue signalling, though.
I might have a more favourable view of it if the dismissal of the tag had come with a reasonable alternative replacing it (no, "just look at scene pairings" is not one), but it didn't. Maybe that will come over time via enhanced search options, but my experience with similar hastily implemented measures elsewhere makes me doubtful that any possible plans for such enhancements won't be conveniently forgotten soon.
Will IAFD also "stand up for black performers" if all this ends up backfiring by leading to (even) fewer economic opportunities for people of colour in porn? That pesky road to hell, and all that.
Edit: BTW, the frequently brought up explanation that certain things such as scene tagging aren't possible on IAFD because it's a movie database first and foremost is becoming a bit awkward these days when many performers of the last few years have more credits listed for individual web scenes than for DVD releases. Perhaps that's an area that IAFD would be better served to address for its long-term viability than this rather pointless attempt at being seen to be on the right side of history.
^ I actually think getting rid of the old "IR" tag was a good idea, just not for the reasons that they did it.
It never truly meant "IR." It always meant "black male, white female" exclusively.
There are legitimate concerns about fetishizing that particular racial combination, and I agree that the industry needs to move away from doing that. However, I'm never going to agree that people should not be selective about their sexual partners on any basis of their choosing, including race. That's a personal choice and a privilege we all enjoy, to select our own sexual partners without the need to justify ourselves to anyone else.
Yes, I can see you agree with triggered whitesplainers. As a person of color involved in the marketing and reporting of porn, I do see systemic racism in the content and treatment of performers of colour. I have met and talked with performers who refuse to work with black people, excusing the boycott as being do to other reasons like family, size, and career prospects. So that informs my decision-making, not a bunch of triggered consumers, even if they may indeed be less racist than the industry that serves them.No. I meant the respective pay disparities between the white and black female performers and the white and black male performers. White women can charge more than black women for working with the same black male performer, sometimes even within the same scene! Meanwhile, black males have less opportunities than white males because of the smaller female talent pool due to women that are either outright refusing to work with them or holding off for the right time or pay.
You going to help us out by doing a pre and post test of the removal? You going to help us recode and readd whatever missing data you need from an archaic database that was the product of volunteers who did this as a hobby?
First of all, I didn't even know you are black. And every other black person in this discussion has said things similar to what I said. They said to you that they are black and they enjoy to see IR. So if you don't want to consider my point of view just because I'm white that apparently means that I can't understand discrimination (believe me, it's not necessary to be black to be discriminated for some reason) you can't use the same argument (he's white, he doesn't know, his opinon is worthless) with other black persons. That said, I don't think I have said a word against the fact that black performers could be paid less, that racist language exists, that there are few black women or that there are white women who wants to be be paid more for scenes with black men (that is racist without a doubt). Those are real problems. I just disagree with the idea that been someone who likes IR or having a fetish for it is necessarily racist. At least I'm glad you're recognizing that maybe this could be true.
there's a part in that article of Daisy Ducati that I want to quote:
"One time, I got called to LA for a standard boy/girl scene. It was a fun scene, went smoothly, and my partner - a white male - was great. I thought everything went well, but when the scene came out DVD a week or two later, the title was "Black Wives Matter." I had no prior knowledge of that until I saw myself on the box. Later, I found out that no other performers knew. Even the director didn't know - the company that produced it just titled it on their own. Sh*t like that happens all the time. Things are given racist titles and promoted in a way I don't agree with."
Now, the problem is the scene itself or the stupid title? I think it's the latter.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Jun 29 2020 : 2:20AM
Nonsense, as usual you're peddling half-assed popular science generalizations to back up stereotypes you already believed in.
Confirmation bias, not science.
Nothing you said can be backed up by biology only 'sociobiology' or as it was renamed when the popular science hack E.O. Wilson started to embarrass everyone 'evolutionary psychology' which most biologists consider a pseudo-science at best.
would you explain it to me since my comment is stupid?
I feel IAFD did this to make themselves feel better, "IR" was always under the white female performer's photo. IAFD/AVN and others were so quick to react in order to avoid attacked verbally by the same persons who went after blacked but kept their mouth shut about wef**kblackgirls or that gang bang site that had all the guys wearing the confederate flag t-shirt.
black girls are always being paid the same as white girls. The current industry rates are $600-$1500 depending on the performer/agent/studio etc. From what I know, the rate would be higher if they do anal, IR, DP, GB etc. If a black girl is paid the same for shooting with a white guy than black guy then it's her agent's fault for not demanding higher rates, most producers try to lowball, if they can get actors to film for $1 they would try it. The problem is Z list performers want the same opportunities/rate as the A listers which can't work. They're some producers who pay flat rate regardless if actor is black, white, asian, newbie, pornstar.
BIPOC is exclusionary, what if white performers decided to have their own collective? how would the entire industry react? would they support it? or the Asian performers formed their own collective?
let's talk about how black owned studios are shunned by the same ones complaining about racism yes? and they're ultra selective with whom they work for? can we talk about how all studios don't have the same budget so they get falsely accused of low balling by some performers? not every studio can rent a mansion, hire $1500 actors and film on high end cinema cameras.
these same performers will not film for your studio if you pay $300-$600 per scene and film in an apartment with a smartphone.
IAFD is playing politics here. Especially when they donate to a org that has nothing to do with the production of pornography and is racially segregated. Good day.
The term IR is not the real problem. The problem is black people being the only ethnic group singled out for exclusion in porn scenes. No one says they don't work with whites, Latinos, Asians etc., it's only black people.
You mentioned some of the most popular black female performers from the late '90s through late '00s. Women like Angel Eyes, Vanessa Blue, Beauty, Kitten, Jada Fire, and even Nyomi Banxxx in her last couple years had that more voluptuous figure that really separates black women from other ethnicities. I'm a black woman so I feel comfortable saying that. That 10 to 15 year period from around '98 through '12 was really IMHO the golden age of black talent in the industry because on one end of the spectrum you had Beauty, Vanessa Blue and Kitten but on the other end you had Marie Luv, Diana Devoe, and Persia Black. And in between you had Nyomi Banxxx, Angel Eyes and Jada Fire. So no matter what body type you liked there was a black woman to fit the bill.
I think now things have really skewed towards the thinner actresses. I adore Ana Foxxx, Misty Stone and Skin Diamond, but we don't really have that grown and sexy MILF type that we had with Kitten, Beauty, etc. We really need to see a greater diversity of black women in the industry. And I think the only way we get there to start supporting independent black production companies. They're the ones who know how to recruit black female talent and more importantly how to keep it going. Just my .02.
personaly, I just used the IR because thats what porn I watch. Easier for me to scan the database. Kinda sucks. Still watching the same porn either way.
This decision does not appear to be in good faith. Bringing George Floyd, BLM and Ms. Angelou into the conversation is not only an attempt to mask the real reason this was done, but it's disrespectful. If you don't have an overwhelming cry from the black audience to remove the tag, you got nothing. You couldn't even find a handful of performers speaking out.
That filter was used for a reason, that reason was for fans to find scenes with black men and non black women. The unfortunate side effect is it exposed all the talent who refused to work with black male talent. That reflects on the performers, their representation and the studios that use them. There is only one reason to remove the filter and that is a trick that has been used for generation to cover up real racist acts.
For the record, I'd be all in for a filter that identified scenes with augmented breasts, but something tells me unlike IR the reason that doesn't exist is because it would be tough to manage. I'm sure someone wouldn't like the filter, but I doubt we would get a press release and a donation to breast cancer out of it.
Removing the filter does nothing to stop poor treatment within the industry, and if you believe it does, you are a wishful thinker. It does the opposite, It allows racist to feel more comfortable, if not protected and facilitates the same, oppression that has plagued the industry for decades.
It's all laughable and not because it funny. It's laughable because in spite of everything going on in our world and every person here who hates IR but may not feel completely empowered to say so, has just been rewarded. Slaves were freed hundreds of years ago. Blacks were given the right to vote 70 years ago, but it's the same old bullshit. I'd rather you be honest, because at least then I know I can engage you for honest conversation. IAFD has zero credibility, but they have every right to run their site as they please.
I'm never surprised how an industry built on free speech always finds a way to filter out the black man.
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itshiho Deactivated User
173 Posts 7/06
Posted - Oct 12 2020 : 5:48PM
Problem I have with the IR tag is it's only when a Black man (especially) or a Black woman is with a person of a difference race that it's used, It doesn't apply to anything else. IR is IR whether it's White and Asian, Asian and Hispanic, Black and Hispanic, Black and Asian or whenever any two different races have sex with each other. By only calling it IR when it involves a Black man is actually racist as that's singling out one specific group and separating them from everyone else.
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Dipperhead Deactivated User
13 Posts 9/20
Posted - Oct 12 2020 : 6:33PM
It's a good decision. Obviously not exactly for the right reasons but ultimately all the reasons are valid. I think blacked etc have a limited time left. Like ghetto gaggers etc stuff can only fly for so long
I used to use IAFD all the time but since they decided to remove their IR tags I stopped using it completely. What good is a search database who purposely made it harder to do searches? I get that they were just trying to appear PC during the height of the Black Lives Matter movement but I still see it as a less than smart move considering what was supposed to be their function as a site. I still just roll my eyes at the people here who are so worried about only using IR to tag sex between black and white performers and not other ethnicities thinking they're so pro PC but are more than content with women getting slapped and abused and subjected to very un-PC treatment in scenes. Very selective cherry picking in what their PC values are it seems. I'm black and never understood why so many people get bent out of shape about a label porn (not real everyday life) uses to specify certain scenes.
Not sorry that we interfered with the efficiency to search to jerk off to the kind of porn you like. That you refuse or haven't figured out to sidestep this by using the "check scene pairing" of a performer to continue to discriminate on who they fuck; and instead, post your amateur psychology theories instead of continuing to watch more porn isn't efficient either.
Just wanted to share my thoughts on the IR tag being removed from IAFD and why I think it might be time to look at this again.
Finding the Interracial (IR) tag on IAFD was a real eye-opener for me. It showcased diverse relationships many of us appreciate, highlighting the importance of representation. While I understand concerns about fetishization leading to its removal, I believe a more nuanced approach could be beneficial.
I get why they decided to remove it - to tackle stereotypes and all that. Those concerns are legit, but I feel like they might've acted a bit too quickly, missing how the tag was actually doing some good by highlighting diversity. For many, it wasn't about fetishizing; it was about seeing diverse relationships represented.
Here's what I think could make this work better:
Make the tag cover all interracial content, not just some
Include some info on why representation matters, educating users on cultural significance
Let performers choose if they want their content tagged, ensuring their consent
Set clear rules to keep discussions respectful, with active moderation to prevent misuse
Check in regularly to see how it's going, ensuring the tag stays on track
To address moderation concerns, strict community guidelines and active monitoring would be crucial. Maybe even consider alternative terms or tags that could achieve the same goal without the historical baggage associated with 'IR'. One idea could be to use more specific abbreviations like BMWF (Black Male/White Female), WMBF (White Male/Black Female), WMAF (White Male/Asian Female), etc. These would offer more accuracy, potentially reduce stereotypes, and allow for better content searching.
A lot of people appreciated that visibility. With these tweaks, it could be a good way to keep celebrating diversity.
Hoping the IAFD team might consider giving this another shot. It's been a while, and maybe it's time for a fresh perspective?
"Pornography: That which excites, whether from approval or disapproval." ~ Leonard Rossite 2345 Posts 12/17
Posted - Dec 21 2024 : 10:46PM
This was actually discussed in a Youtube video of black porn performers which Chris Cock making a similar point - interracial strictly means black and white, as opposed to Latina and white or Asian and white. It's a fascinating watch
To me it was a big mistake because of the whole George Floyd/BLM incident. This was too me too Woke on my part but now that Trump is back as president, maybe it's time to bring it back but the problem with that most IR fans are only BM/WF IR watcher too.
What Have You Done To My Little Cable Boy? 2966 Posts 5/10
Posted - Dec 22 2024 : 11:52AM
I don't know what the main focus of discussion is in the States. But here in Europe, the term "interracial" would be problematic by now, because more and more people think that there are no races.
Exactly I think it needs to come back because now there's so many IT scenes of being shot not just from IR companies like Blacked or Dogfart but Brazzers. 16 or 15 years ago Brazzers or NA didn't shoot much IR or didn't shoot black men at all but now today in 2024 we're seeing more black men shoot more white women. Also I think AVN needs to bring it back as well.
Hey Jeff, I hope you're open to changing your mind on this.
IMO, this accomplishes nothing, but inconveniencing the viewer. It doesn't make pay equal, to the extent that it's not. Also, it won't encourage women who "wait" for IR(which we can debate if that's bad) to stop doing the same. It's just virtue signaling. IR is a genre, like any other; Many folks pretty much only watch that, so there should be a tag. Regarding only WF performers having the tag, why do you think that is? The reason is likely because of the makeup of the industry. There's so many white women, and a lack of Hispanics and Asians. This means of an Asian female gets the IR tag, pretty much all of her scenes will, because there's like no Asian males in the biz; therefore, it wouldn't make sense to treat everyone the same with the tag. So the reason only white females get the tag, isn't due to racism, it's due to the lack of diversity, and their dominant numbers. Now, if you want to ensure that they get the IR tag if they work with any POC, fair.
It's not coming back , one thing is to remove a tag from the server or the script a whole different thing is to take a look to every single scene and see wheter or not there are some referred performers , some of which changed their mind for example a Cuban performer used to identify himself as black and his scenes were tagged as such , then he decided he wasn't black and his scenes didn't get any tag from then on , if you are to restore the IR tag what would you do?
Personally, I think he needs to come back, I remember going on a site to look up IR and it's easier for fans to find out who's doing it, but they don't understand the fans demand. It's been five years since they did it and I think it's time for them to bring it back and also I think AVN needs to bring the word Interracial back it's like a bad word to them. Even some Brandi Love who I don't agree with political views, Jules Jordan some black male talent and Jada Stevens wanted it back.
That was five years ago, but now we're under a new administration and I think it's time for a AVN to bring it back because there's so many movies of them. They need to stop with woke crap for real.
