"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 19 2019 : 9:11AM
After looking at the evidence SBA presented, I still can't come to the conclusion that SBA did absolutely nothing wrong and that Lily Adams should now be ridiculed and condemned. I mean, I went back and looked at all of her Twitter posts that I embedded back on Page 1 of this thread, and she did indicate in those that she did consent to the "go-see." She also stated that she was okay when he "stuck his dick inside of me." It is when he anally penterated - without her permission - that she feels she was sexually assaulted.
As for the post-encounter Tweets, it's possible that even though Lily felt she was violated, she figured it was in the best interests of her employment that she just "play nice" with this photographer/director who has a lot of clout in the industry.
Bottom line, for me: Just as I never jumped to the conclusion that SBA did this awful thing and needed to be removed from the industry ASAP, I'm not going to jump in to immediatley condemn Lily now.
I always said this was an he said she said scenario and these more recent pieces of info haven't changed that except to muddy the water even more. I also have to point out that regardless of Lily's accusations being proven false or misleading. She isn't the only woman to have said that SBA did the same to them and while all the women may have been consenting adults who knew exactly what they were about to do with SBA. It doesn't change the fact that a person responsible for hiring talent should not be having sex with said talent because there is a power dynamic involved in the relationship that is skewed in the direction of the person with the power.
How many of the women who fucked SBA did it more because they feared that not doing so would be a problem with them getting more Gamma production gigs? How many of those women would gladly come forward and say that they would have preferred not to have sex with him if they were 100% certain that it would not affect their future employment opportunities? How many other producer/director fucks girls on the side and the women allow it because they don't want to get black listed?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 19 2019 : 12:45PM
^I doubt it's uncommon for performers to sleep with people in the industry who they believe will help them with their career in some way. Surely, performers are perfectly capable of propositioning a perceived patron themselves if they believe that doing so will benefit them, so I wouldn't assume that the patron figures are always the initiators. In any case, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that that kind of behind the scenes sex is rampant in the industry. Banning it is unrealistic imo. I guess that rules can prevent it from occurring within a work environment, so that no one is making a proposition or being propositioned while on the job, but any change beyond that is a pipe dream imo.
This "glee" you're talking about is actually a response to the earlier mob-like crew who was so certain and dead-set on believing the claims while hoping to see the accused go down without giving them a chance. If people treat these situations more open mindedly in the future there wouldn't be 'glee' when shit hits the fan.
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
I don't know if you are trying to imply that is okay for a performer to fuck someone who has the power to affect her career or if you are simply stating what I believe to be a reality in the porn industry. If it is the first then that is basically what is at the heart of the "Me Too" movement. To me it's quite simple. If you are a person who has the power to hire, fire, promote or blacklist a performer then at no point should you have sex with that performer because the power dynamic is skewed in your favor and if something goes wrong then sadly you are to blame because you had the power to say no.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 19 2019 : 10:29PM
^I think what I wrote was pretty clear. I only alluded to the moral issue in the last couple of sentences of my post.
If you're curious, do I believe that it is inherently unethical for performers to sleep with people in the industry who are able to hire, fire, promote or blacklist them? No, I don't. I'm sure that I'd regard many such cases as unethical, and some of those cases may even rise to the level of sexual assault, but I'm unwilling to make a blanket judgement. That said, rules that keep that kind of behavior completely out of the workplace seem like a good idea to me, at least in theory, since in reality such rules probably wouldn't be enforced.
EDIT: I want to clarify what I meant in my last sentence. What I'd like to see stop is performers being hit on at work. I don't think that actually will be stopped but I'd like to see the industry at least give it a try.
You raise the point that is seemingly being forgotten in all of this which is that Lily wasn't the only one that alleged inappropriate behavior over several years of Alan's time there. All that Alan's statement and "evidence" does for me is increase my belief that there should be an independent investigation to attempt to find out what actually happened. One thing I find really interesting about the timing of this is that in the Jezebel article, it was mentioned that the internal investigation had concluded and the results would be made known shortly. It's also important to note that there was no attempt to address any of the other allegations made against him beyond Lily's. At least according to Sam's twitter, there were eight women that came forward with allegations of misconduct (and at least three of them to my knowledge publicly). I can easily see this being an attempt from Alan to try to get public support on his side if Gamma is on the fence about parting ways with him by putting out information that makes the Lily allegation appear to not be the full version of events, thus putting pressure on Gamma publicly by getting fan and model support on his side. False accusations hurt us all who have suffered assault, but crediting one false accusation meaning that all accusations against someone are also untrue hurts us more. Whatever the outcome of the internal investigation is, I really do hope there is an external one as well to find out what really happened.
^ The legality of banning interoffice relationships is complex and unsettled, but there is a reason why the majority of major companies even if they allow them require disclosure to Human Resources. Even if all participants are willing, it blurs the lines of consent and leaves the company open to litigation if one party breaks things off or withdraws consent. Some of this can be alleviated by having someone that isn't on set doing the hiring for a major studios, along with putting rules in place for disclosure if there's a romantic relationship on any level.
Questioning the evidence is pretty silly at this point. In comparison, the only thing Lily brought forward was a tweet with a claim, and she has been totally silent about it since the actual evidence was posted.
I haven't looked into the other allegations but they do nothing for Lily, and if all they brought forward were claims just like Lily then one must wonder if lynch mobs will ever learn.
Wow, very interesting, does this mean we will wait for an investigation before we jump to a conclusion or continue to grab our pitchforks as soon as somebody cries wolf?
Can someone explain to me how these text messages prove she was lying and the assault never happened? I have read the messages several times and I still am left feeling like I missed something. I am not saying this as someone who insists on believing any party. Just someone interested in logic and justice.
All those people that deleted gb of girlsway material feel silly now??? Personally, on another but similar issue, even if R. Kelly for example is found guilty of his offences, I will not delete any of his music from my hard drive. I can separate the crime from the art. I do not believe in retroactively unpersoning people.
[Link]
FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Feb 23 2019 : 7:52PM
^^ I suspect the truth maybe somewhere in the middle but right now, all the evidence says she was less than truthful.
^ I didn't delete anything, I put it in a separate file. If you can look at people and not see the vile acts they committed, and continue to enjoy, much less get off on what they do, you are the one with the problem.
Thanks for your post because I also didn't see how this helped his case. Mind you. I don't care if he has dozens of emails/text messages where she is complementing him. I'm pretty sure I could find multiple instances where actresses complemented Harvey Weinstein and that was after they had been his victims.
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 24 2019 : 12:07AM
^ Same here, SBA's "evidence" doesn't really prove much of anything to me.
[Link]
FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Feb 24 2019 : 12:20AM
^ Does hers prove more?
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 24 2019 : 12:42AM
^ No, but SBA's digital evidence only corroborates what Lily said from the start, that she was okay with the "go-see" and she consented to sex. And that Twitter post from Lily after the meeting, about being "shocked and impressed", doesn't automatically mean - to me, at least - that she consented to anal sex.
Exactly what pat said. On top of that she hit him? And then she gives him radio silence for two days? The fact that people so readily took these messages as proof of anything is why women don't report. That doesn't mean she is telling the truth or not but boy, folks were itching to dismiss her allegations. Meanwhile Lily is sticking to her story.
Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 2/24/2019 8:49:15 AM
Sticking to what story? She's been silent on the thing since the reveal and hasn't even said that he's lying or twisting proof or anything on the matter. She's really only displaying behavior of someone who is embarrassed that they got caught in a lie, like hoping it'll blow over and act like this thing didn't happen so there won't be consequences. We see their interactions from start to finish, she shows no regret untill much later when she goes 180 and claims rape. Looks like she was hoping to get something more out of sleeping with him career-wise and when it didn't, she probably felt dumb and became resentful so she tried to ruin him.
Edited by - 2bollocks on 2/24/2019 12:35:42 PM
[Link]
FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Feb 24 2019 : 12:52PM
^^ I actually condemned him from the jump. My natural default is to believe the girls. However, does this seem like something a woman who had just been anally raped would tweet? Things are obviously open to personal interpretation, but to me, this is at worst a neutral comment on what I would deem a traumatic event in any persons life.
[Link]
joi Deactivated User
396 Posts 6/17
Posted - Feb 24 2019 : 1:08PM
no evidence is enough when you treat women as children.
Her choice to contact him, meet up, have sex and make it known that she enjoyed it. It's all right there to be read. If she wants to pull a 180 on that later and act a victim, most rational people will need some compelling proof for that.
December 2018: Lily Adams mentions a go-see gone awry that happened 2 years ago (2016), that's the initial tweet that got things rolling September 2016: one of the conversations in the dropbox by SBA also mentions with 2 pages the go-see in September 2016 November 2017: the other conversation in the dropbox mentions the anal sex in November 2017, together with the "shocked & impressed"-Tweet by Lily
SBA denies any sex took place at the go-see (2016).
Here is a condensed This American Life version of the book I recommended, for those interested. The book is a much more detailed account and includes a history of similar cases. Regardless of the outcome of this specific case with Lily/Alan, the story told in the show is a vital lesson in never assuming to know how a victim behaves. This particular victim was ultimately charged with filing a false report--even admitted to lying--until her rapist was caught. A big chunk of the story revolves around perceptions of the victim's behavior as unfitting of someone who had just been raped.
[Link]
joi Deactivated User
396 Posts 6/17
Posted - Mar 3 2019 : 12:38AM
^ is there a book that tells you how men behave when they are falsely accused of a sex crime? from what i have seen so far he is the victim here not her.
A reminder that Lily is not the only person to have made allegations against Alan. Among the others are Samantha Rone, Charlotte Cross, the anonymous person who emailed Lily, and apparently someone called Eliza (would that be Eliza Jane? Bc she's the only one I can think of who shot for Girlsway. I haven't seen anything from her personally since she deleted her porn twitter, but Lena Paul references an apparent statement on the matter in the tweets below; Lena was also warned about him). Also, Girlsway's "golden girl" and fan favourite Shyla Jennings favourited a lot of tweets criticising how people were quick to jump back on Alan's side, and in a quickly-deleted tweet said that she'll "never work with Gamma again if they rehire him".
And Alan's "evidence" refutes NOTHING except to show that Lily acted in texts like nothing was wrong. Which is very feasible for someone who is struggling to process the assault which they have just been subject to, from a person in a position of power. It's horrible to see how many performers threw Lily to the dogs so quickly and buddied back up with Alan the moment that he denied the accusations (which OF COURSE HE DID) before Gamma's investigation is even complete.
^ I agree with your comments. People are quick to jump on Alan side. For someone to even say Alan is the victim, thats a joke. He is far from the victim and needs to pay for what he has done to all the women he has wronged in any way.
Looks like Alan is no longer directing for girlsway and at this point his career in porn might be over, regardless of what the truth is.
[Link]
FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Mar 3 2019 : 10:20PM
It wasn't Shy Love with the anonymous email, unless she's covering her ass: [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available]
^That doesn't clear anything because that is heer point of view this is still a he said/she said scenario where only the people who know what happened are the participants.
For the sake of my argument I will disregard Lily's accusation of sexual assault and concentrate on what everyone seems to agree on. SBA had sex with Lily. If they were simply two consenting adults agreeing to have sex because they have the hot's for each other than most people wouldn't care but this isn't the case. SBA is for all intents and purposes a person who could help or hinder Lily's career and if he asked her to have sex with him then he crossed a line that he should never have crossed because at the very least. It borders on the illegal. How many other women have had sex with him over the years because he asked them and they felt they had to because they didn't want to get blackballed by a major porn employer? I knew there was a problem the moment that the phrase "Princess Room" was uttered because if a specific room is given a name then it means that multiple people have visited it and it wasn't to have tea while wearing a dress and tiara.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 4 2019 : 1:23PM
^^This isn't a question about Stills by Alan specifically but is instead a general question: Is it your view that active performers should never under any circumstances outside of a paid shoot have sex with anyone in the industry who can help or hinder their career?
^As a general rule. No one in a position of authority should have sex with someone who is by any extension a subordinate to them because the power dynamic is all on the person with authority. That's why the answer to your question is yes. If a person of authority in the porn industry wants to have sex with performers than he should date them and this way it would be all right. To do anything else opens that person and the industry to some serious scrutiny from outside agencies. It's not only the big wigs of Hollywood that should be worried about the "Me Too" movement.
What do you think about a large corporation boss asking different female employees working in that company to have sex with him?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 4 2019 : 2:44PM
^To my mind that's an extraordinary position. In the mainstream film industry, film directors sometimes date and even marry actors. Two of Hollywood's biggest directors, Steven Spielberg and James Cameron, are examples. We can also go smaller and look at something like Kristen Stewart dating her assistant a few years back.
Speaking from my own life, I have slept with people who had power over me and I don't believe that was unethical (on their part) in every instance. There were also sexual assaults committed by men with power over me, but I put those in a separate category.
I'd think that's inappropriate.
[Link]
FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Mar 4 2019 : 2:49PM
I didn't say or infer that it cleared anything. I posted it as another side/angle to the story that is unfolding still.
^ If the story is still unfolding and nothing has been cleared or proven, why tweet and post such categorical statements re: Lily lying and Alan being innocent? Could it be that you jumped the gun a little in reaction to what might seem to be damning evidence? We can all fall victim to such narratives and myths in spite of our best intentions.
Regarding power and consent, I echo some of missporn's views...it's certainly tricky territory. I just finished the podcast series SLOW BURN about the Clinton/Lewinsky affair and there was a well handled episode concerning this very issue. No black and white conclusions. Just thought-provoking and divisive amongst the commentators they had on.
I think within sex work, the issue becomes even more complicated. The casting couch, dating, etc....things could be quite confusing and muddy for a newcomer or even a veteran when it comes to boundaries and professionalism. Calls to mind a particularly grim story in Ashley Blue's memoir in which she is raped while at a shoot (or a go see? I can't remember...my copy is at work).
[Link]
FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Mar 4 2019 : 3:21PM
^^ Yes, and if you will go back and read, I admitted that I did so, a couple times.
Thats the thing. Unethical predators should be punished. Like even if you take away unethical, a predator has no place in society to prey on whoever they decide to prey on. I know a guy right now in jail for preying on women and all he was doing was blackmailing and harassing. He wasnt even having sex with them at least from what I know of. Its wrong though. None of these people who decide to do these types of things should be let off the hook. So you dont just have to be a rapist.
People should be punished for crimes based on facts and evidence. People should not be punished for non-crimes just because you don't like their behavior. People should not be punished on hearsay without evidence just because you think that one side's words sound more believable than the other side's. Right now, we still have a "he said, she said" case with apparently very little evidence beyond that except the text messages and tweets. From that, I don't see any reason why anyone should be punished right now. Still, it appears that Alan has been forced out of his livelyhood while Lily continues to work.
Lily Adams @ AEBN
Posted - Feb 19 2019 : 9:11AM
