Low caliber women and American porn? (page 2)

Author	Post
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 2:36PM more_cowbell wrote: But the truth is most American women are not skinny. They diet endlessly to look like a supermodel when it is natural for them to have meaty thighs. Click to expand What's even more troubling to me is America's new obsession with declaring every young woman, who isn't exactly 5'5" and 110lbs, as automatically unfit and out of shape. Just seem like there is a new standard being set that most women will never qualify for. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 3:40PM ^ Exactly. There is a very creepy pedophilic subtext to what is being pushed today as feminine beauty. I've never been less attracted to women in porn (and all entertainment for that matter) as I am right now. They're not unattractive by default -- they just systematically ruin themselves to look like the waif they think they HAVE to be. And I think the rest of us as consumers have to be more outspoken about this nonsense. It's pretty much getting to the point where anorexic is becoming standard. Some of my all time favorites like Ryan Conner and April Flowers would have been considered out of shape by today's retarded criteria, even though they had more toned muscle in one leg than the average skeletor has in her whole body. [Link]
Simpsona Senior Member 2389 Posts 8/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 6:36PM ^ When you say today are you meaning the last 10 years or so because when i think back to when i first started taking note of porn stars,around 10 years ago,girls like Jenna Haze and Aurora Snow also come to mind so it's hardly a new thing. Also let me just say.....Phoenix Marie,Jayden Jaymes,Kagney Linn Karter and the list goes on and on of porn stars that dispel your perception of what you think every porn star looks like right now. [Link]
THICK_LOVA54 Senior Member Wielding a sword without fear of it is to be unworthy of the blade. 1441 Posts 5/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:03PM simpsona99999 wrote: ^^ Mate,now your just incoherently ranting,you OK? Edited by - simpsona99999 on 5/31/2012 7:05:48 PM Click to expand Was that to me? I thought I was making a very relavant but unbiased statement. My philosophy professor would always tell me I ride the fence too hard lol. "There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered." -Mandela [Link]

THICK_LOVA54 Senior Member Wielding a sword without fear of it is to be unworthy of the blade. 1441 Posts 5/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:05PM Hardware wrote: ^ You seem to be confusing two different issues - the average size of human beings in a given place at a given age and the idealized size/shape of the female throughout the ages, not that every culture held the same view at the same time, of course. Look at German portraiture from the 16th century (I think I've got the period right). When food was scarce being fat was a sign of wealth and success, not that most people were fat, of course. You don't see the rich and wealthy, those arbiters of culture, embracing 'thin' until the lower classes start getting fat. Click to expand For the record you're my favorite poster hardware, though I doubt you care for flattery. "There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered." -Mandela [Link]
Simpsona Senior Member 2389 Posts 8/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:10PM ^^ No,you sneaked your post in just before mine,i went back and added an extra ^ in the hope you would realise it wasn't aimed at you [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:13PM simpsona99999 wrote: ^ When you say today are you meaning the last 10 years or so because when i think back to when i first started taking note of porn stars,around 10 years ago,girls like Jenna Haze and Aurora Snow also come to mind so it's hardly a new thing. Click to expand From your responses so far I knew you were too young. If you only started taking notice of porn the last decade you simply don't have the perspective needed to see the big picture here. But I'll go ahead and waste time answering this. Jenna Haze and Aurora snow were both petite, not skeletal. There were always petite women in porn like the ones I've already mentioned. Back in the 80s and 90s you also had slender women right alongside the likes of Christy Canyon, Keisha and Lisa Melendez. They were all considered sexy in their own way and there was no pressure to conform to ONE standard size like there is now. There were hardly any skeletal, malnourished women in mainstream porn until the latter part of the last decade -- Now they are the majority. Also let me just say.....Phoenix Marie,Jayden Jaymes,Kagney Linn Karter and the list goes on and on of porn stars that dispel your perception of what you think every porn star looks like right now. Click to expand Phoenix Marie and Jayden James have both lost considerable weight since they entered the biz. Especially Phoenix who is barely even recognizable. And just because there are a token few who are not anorexic or excessively thin (yet) doesn't mean the majority aren't. Almost every girl who enters porn now ends up losing around 15-20 lbs within a year, sometimes even more. And one would have to be full of crap to deny that. I can't think of a single girl I liked a year or two ago who hasn't lost a considerable amount of weight. [Link]
Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14595 Posts 3/02	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:19PM THICK_LOVA54 wrote: For the record you're my favorite poster hardware, though I doubt you care for flattery. Click to expand Erm, thanks. I'll take some comfort from that the next time I put my foot in it. [Link]
Simpsona Senior Member 2389 Posts 8/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:31PM ^^ I'll give you the fact that there are a fair few women who lose weight after entering porn but that could be because of other reason's than you think.Like not having to work a 9-5 type job and having more free time to do other things like spending more time at the gym. Also,too young for what exactly?That comment supports what i said earlier in this thread about you being just a tad condescending. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:07PM simpsona99999 wrote: ^^ I'll give you the fact that there are a fair few women who lose weight after entering porn but that could be because of other reason's than you think.Like not having to work a 9-5 type job and having more free time to do other things like spending more time at the gym. Click to expand You wanna know why I'm "condescending"? Because of stupid comments like this! It's pretty clear you like the scrawny type and just want to defend it no matter what, but you lack the facts and also the intellect to come up with something remotely sensible, so you just throw stuff against the wall and hope something sticks. People don't lose drastic amounts of weight like these girls do unless they're really going out of their way (i.e. starving themselves). I've been a member of gyms for 20 years now and have seen plenty of women who worked out regularly -- They were all toned and in shape, some of them were also slender, but I never saw one who looked malnourished and emaciated like most of these girls are. I also can't pretend that porn stars didn't exercise until recently! You want to think they look like skeletons now because they have "more free time"? Knock yourself the fuck out. But don't expect me not to point out how dumb and wishful your reasoning is. [Link]
Simpsona Senior Member 2389 Posts 8/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:16PM ^ These girls?Most girls?Who exactly are you talking about? Again with the ranting and again i'll ask if you're OK? [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:21PM simpsona99999 wrote: ^ These girls?Most girls?Who exactly are you talking about? Click to expand Don't worry about it kid.:) I won't even bother making a sarcastic comment because it'll just go over your head like everything else. Go waste someone else's time. [Link]
Simpsona Senior Member 2389 Posts 8/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:37PM ^ It would've probably been better to say nothing rather than that pretty lame reply,but hey i guess you just couldn't help yourself [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 9:15PM simpsona99999 wrote: ^ It would've probably been better to say nothing rather than that pretty lame reply,but hey i guess you just couldn't help yourself Click to expand If it wasn't for lame replies your post count would be zero. You suck at thinking. Stop trying. [Link]

Dubious_Leftovers Senior Member And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me... 1423 Posts 3/09	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 10:00PM Topic is complete silliness. No, American porn women aren't "low calibre"; there are an incredible amount of good-looking women in American movies. The top studios feature these girls as standard... What are people looking at? Also, other body-types are allowed as a given right to have a personal preference. Edited by - Dubious_Leftovers on 6/1/2012 10:02:40 PM [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 10:56PM Dubious_Leftovers wrote: No, American porn women aren't "low calibre"; there are an incredible amount of good-looking women in American movies. Click to expand They certainly are good looking before the starvation kicks in for most of them. Otherwise, no...I don't find the heroin chic look attractive. If you do, good for you -- this is a golden age for guys with your fetish. Just admit it for what it is. Also, other body-types are allowed as a given right to have a personal preference. Click to expand If somebody's "personal preference" is geared toward unhealthy anorexic women, if their fetish involves women starving themselves, if they like girls that look unmistakably childlike, they may have the "right" to that preference, but others also have the right to call them out for it. Plain and simple. [Link]
Dubious_Leftovers Senior Member And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me... 1423 Posts 3/09	Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 11:53PM ^Okay, whatever. Yep, every girl in porn is a skeleton (or is going to be), and heroin chic is so "in". Oh, and most of us are latent pedophiles too (nice to know, cheers!) I thought I was okay in liking American covers like these... ...But as it turns out, these eight recent examples of American pornographic box art feature anorexic women, sporting the heroin chic look, because that's what American-buying customers DEMAND... Well there's a turn-up! Looks like it's fat, granny porn for me then! Wouldn't want anybody thinking I'm endorsing any kind of perceived weight-loss in women, or get thought of as liking little kiddies! [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 12:54AM But see that's the beauty of American Porn to me dubious. The fact that porn, especially American Porn, has been embracing all body-types has put it head and shoulders above any other medium. I would hate to see it go away from it. I mean I think there have been subtle attempts over the last 10-15 years, but luckily too many porn fans have denounced or avoided it. I love the variety of porn. I think there are some instances of exclusion near the very top sometimes, but overall the balance seems good to me. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 1:29AM Dubious_Leftovers wrote: I thought I was okay in liking American covers like these... .... Click to expand Most of those covers have the word Big or Phat in the title.:) Which just further proves my point. Curvy (or even just normal) has become a niche in porn like the MILF. When you check out standard films, most girls are scrawny especially when you remember how they looked when they started out. Go on the model section of any major internet company. You'll see girl after girl with skeletal bodies literally unseen in porn just 5 years ago. I follow a good number of porn girls on twitter. In every single case except ONE they have lost significant amounts of weight in the last couple of years even when they were already on the thin side to begin with. I could name more than a few just off the top of my head. There is really no denying the anorexic trend in porn and it's becoming worse and worse. Just go on twitter and check out the older pics of some of these girls and compare them to their present ones -- in most cases the difference is startling. Not to mention depressing. [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 2:01AM I think they'll always be some pressure, subtle or exact, for some women to drop pounds to work for certain companies. I'm not one who automatically thinks that a woman, who drops a few pounds, was pressured to do so. Dubious showed many recent acceptions from top-flight companies. Sure the titles suggest a niche, but the fact there are so many sort of balances things. To me, those kind of titles seem more like the norm now, than the old niche. I just think the general direction has changed. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 2:13AM Aplus wrote: I think they'll always be some pressure, subtle or exact, for some women to drop pounds to work for certain companies. I'm not one who automatically thinks that a woman, who drops a few pounds, was pressured to do so. Dubious showed many recent acceptions from top-flight companies. Sure the titles suggest a niche, but the fact there are so many sort of balances things. To me, those kind of titles seem more like the norm now, than the old niche. I just think the general direction has changed. Click to expand I really want to believe this. But it's impossible when I see girl after girl losing 20 lbs shortly after entering the industry. And I'm not saying they're always pressured to do so by companies. A lot of it is just conforming to this stupid new concept of size two = hot. The individual reasons are really irrelevant for me at this point. What I do know is that for the first time ever I'm turned off by most women in porn. And many of these women are ones that I was at first very attracted to. [Link]
Simpsona Senior Member 2389 Posts 8/10	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 8:31AM Pornication wrote: If it wasn't for lame replies your post count would be zero. You suck at thinking. Stop trying. Click to expand Rather than trying your hand at jokes you ought to just stick with the old rants.There much more amusing. [Link]
David Cop-a-feel Deactivated User Trust me, honey, it gets better 323 Posts 10/10	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 9:31AM Though Pornication is perhaps rather strident, I do find myself nodding in agreement with his comments. He rather astutely points out that women with curves (ie,normal) have to be marketed as having "big" this or or "phat" that ,nowadays, so clearly there's been a shift as far as what is considered "normal" to a skinnier,more boyish look. I agree, it is unhealthy and less attractive. [Link]
Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14595 Posts 3/02	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 12:40PM Marketing hype is the new reality? [Link]

Dubious_Leftovers Senior Member And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me... 1423 Posts 3/09	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 4:07PM Pornication, David Cop-a-feel- There are a few different things being discussed here, and I think in terms of trying to keep a level head, I think each factor should be taken on its own merits because there are different factors at hand... a)Marketing: Just because the words "phat" and "big" are used in a title, it doesn't suggest that these terms are niche or otherwise unattractive; they're just terms synonymous with/in place of "curvy" for example. "Phat" is a term on its own; it's not literally fat, and none of these titles are marketed as BBW releases (which would use different terms again). Pornication wrote: Most of those covers have the word Big or Phat in the title.:) Which just further proves my point. Curvy (or even just normal) has become a niche in porn like the MILF. Click to expand EVERY porn film gets marketed to a particular audience; Even "normal" is a niche, but no company is going to title their title "Normal Girls #224" for example, because in marketing, "normal"= boring and who wants a title to basically read "Boring Girls"...? "Phat" goes with the word 'juicy', for example, and as a lot of these titles show a popular love for tits and arse - these are good words to use to make one's product enticing. As I said, there is no use of "normal" in marketing terms; Older-looking is MILF. Thin/skinny often gets called "Teen" or "Spinner" (which is in fact, a niche). A woman sporting a hairy muff (which is the most natural thing an adult woman can have) conforms to a "Hairy" niche. Ethnicity (Asian, black, latin etc.), small tits, large tits, natural tits, fake tits, tattoos/alt porn... all of these are specifically catered for, categorised and marketed. Nowhere is the word "normal" used. The other option, is not to market the title on body-type, but rather by act/specific fetish (feature, foot, anal, D.P. etc.) Looking at say, the more recent Evil Angel titles (still a premier company), these are some of the recent (last few months) non-specific body-type titles: These above, form a good proportion of the releases that I can post here (complying to Image Policy). As one can see, none are labeled 'Phat" "Big" "Curvy" "Round" etc., but act-driven or all-sex titles featuring healthy-looking women on the covers to sell them; no-one here looks remotely emaciated to me. Remember, these companies are long-lasting, and highly established. They know how to market and they know what sells. If curves are so niche, it wouldn't be worth selling and making these women cover stars, title after title. Many porn studios have closed the last few years, the ones that remain must be confident that there titles are popular enough to keep them in existence; the fact that on forums such as this that clamber for the next installment of 'Big Wet Asses' proves that curves are still massively popular and the companies know this. Okay, that's my thoughts on that particular aspect... Now, the other factors: b) General Weight Loss: This, I'm not as sure about as what it's alluding to involves behind-the-scenes chitter-chatter that we aren't privy to. One thing I do recall, was that Ava Rose once publicly came out to say she felt pressured to lose weight by someone who'd potentially hire her; how common occurrences like that are, I do not know. I do know that porn stars who have noticeably gained weight still get regular work, so whether this is common or she was just unlucky, I cannot say. If girls' Twitter pics are gradually showing thinness over months... well... I don't follow that world closely. If it genuinely is the case, there are reasons at hand that do not reflect fan wishes, but something fucked within the industry itself that we as porn fans don't see; the reasons are speculative. I restate: All body-types are more than ably catered for... Purely on topic, the women in American porn themselves aren't low calibre. There's always fucked-up shit behind the scenes, but that's a different topic I feel... Edited by - Dubious_Leftovers on 6/2/2012 7:04:47 PM [Link]
coming soon Senior Member 1705 Posts 2/11	Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 6:54PM ^This. All of it. Also, I wonder where are those women who look like skeletons? If that's a general trend, it should be easily noticeable in every big porn company. Evil Angel, Elegant Angel, Brazzers... where are those unhealthy anorexic women that confirm this so called trend? [Link]
KatjaKassin Senior Member 1257 Posts 5/03	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 2:39AM European women have the typical caucasian body type and features (slender body, high cheek bones, light eyes etc) and that's what a lot of people around the world consider the beauty standard. However, in the Americas there's a larger variety of ethnic minorities (meaning non white people) that find a different look more attractive: wider hips, more butt, hour glass shape and maybe more exotic (non Caucasian) features. Porn producers know this and offer different products that cater to different tastes: there are Asian themed releases, African American featured movies, Latinas, skinny teens, busty milfs etc. The US has a more diverse population than European countries, especially Eastern Europe where there is not much racial variety. It's really a discussion that will lead nowhere. Different strokes for different folks. I personally do not fit into the typical look of European porn and that's why I was never very successful over there whereas here in the US my butt gets a lot of stares. At home I always was made fun of for it. I do eat very healthy but I still got meat on my bones. People just have different body types, doesn't mean they are self indulgent or junkies. Some are chunky, some are skinny. [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 4:08AM Great all-around post Katja. To me, the OP was stating a personal preference and/or opinion. Not all of it based on real facts. There are few, if any, countries more diverse than the United states. Porn reflects this more now than any other time I can remember. [Link]
Mike1120 Deactivated User 17 Posts 5/12	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 4:31AM more_cowbell wrote: Hollywood, the fashion industry, and late 20th century porn industry tried their damndest to brainwash every woman to be boney. But the truth is most American women are not skinny. They diet endlessly to look like a supermodel when it is natural for them to have meaty thighs. The today's porn industry is slightly ahead of the curve glamorizing woman with nice round asses. But they're only giving the fans what they want. Fuck Hollywood and the Fashion Industry for forcing so many women to starve themselves to be boney. Click to expand I totally agree about Hollywood and the Fashion Industry. We adore and worship women and their beauty, yet are seen and talked about as wanting to objectify women. Meanwhile, they physically and mentally tear down very young women, make them adopt material values, and then throw them away after they have either turned into skin and bones or have picked up a laugh line. At least in American porn, a woman can start out young in the business, take more control of her career, and go well into her late years. We have young, MILF, GILF, and probably more that I'm skipping. Raylene and Lisa Ann are two great examples of stars that have had longer careers. Very curvy and we love 'em. As far as if American versus European is any issue, I can only comment that Black Angelika sounds hot when she talks, and is even hotter when she performs. [Link]
Alzharhok Senior Member 1481 Posts 6/10	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 5:14AM I'd say on average I prefer American girls over European girls by quite a wide margin so I obviously don't agree. I think Katja pretty much nailed it though, different types of girls, different ideas about the ideal look. It's kinda pointless to have a big back and forth when it's mostly personal preference. [Link]
coming soon Senior Member 1705 Posts 2/11	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 5:22AM In terms of personality, I prefer the American performers. Being native English speakers helps a lot, but it also has to do with the culture itself, language aside. We're talking about a more varied society that puts special emphasis on the individual. Porn is no exception. For example, my favorite performer overall is Stoya. She could very well be European, given her features, but there's something about her personality (her tastes, ideas, other stuff she does, media exposure aside from porn oriented media, etc.) that makes her even more unique. Those other aspects about her wouldn't probably be there if she were European. Talking stricktly about flesh, I think there are many beautiful European performers (Eastern European for the most part). You just need to check Eurobabeindex. Many of them are, to my standards, jaw-dropping beautiful, and I enjoy the likes of Jessica Rox, Ashley Stillar, the slender Anjelica or past performers such as Nikita Gross or Anja Juliette Laval, but as Katja says there's a lot less variety. I like the very young top model type, which is and has always been very present in European porn, but at the same time I love Nyomi Banxxx, and I'm glad that she can have a long career in porn, so I'm well served from both sides of the Atlantic. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 7:56AM coming soon wrote: ^This. All of it. Also, I wonder where are those women who look like skeletons? If that's a general trend, it should be easily noticeable in every big porn company. Evil Angel, Elegant Angel, Brazzers... where are those unhealthy anorexic women that confirm this so called trend? Click to expand I already said go checkout the model pages of every major internet company. You want more? Look at scenes prior to 2007 or so, then compare them to what you see today. One would have to be in willful denial to not acknowledge the significant difference in the average girl's weights, especially when comparing scenes featuring the same girl. Then again you already said you're attracted to "top model" types which basically means you like the very slender look, as most of those girls are often the very definition of scrawny. So I suspect like most people sharing your preference you consider that body type to be just average and don't believe there is even such a thing as too skinny, and worse, you'll twist yourself into a pretzel to deny common sense evidence, so this discussion is only going to waste both of our times. And to everyone else, I'm not talking about natural body types or petite versus curvy, so that "to each his own" stuff doesn't really apply here. What I'm objecting to is the increasingly homogenized look of porn girls as the bullshit Size Two Ideal becomes more and more accepted as standard. You can keep nitpicking DVD covers here and there all you like, but that is not going to counter the fact that just about every girl I've followed in the last 3 years or so has lost a remarkable amount of weight to the point where some are hardly even recognizable. Even some of the current "big booty" types like Alexis Texas have lost around 20 lbs since they first made their names. Looking at the big picture it's insane to deny it: Like in all other forms of entertainment, porn girls are getting thinner and thinner, and in most cases that means they're looking less and less attractive due to excessive weight loss. Only naturally slender women look good that way. A curvy woman trying to appear petite will only look malnourished. What I miss is the old days when beauty wasn't judged based on whether the girls were petite or curvy; when both types were found sexy in their own way without the curvy ones losing crazy amounts of weight just to "fit in". If you want a good illustration of this crazy cultural trend that's shaping all this, go on youtube and watch the Diva bikini contest from 2006, then contrast it with the same contest from 2012. The difference in body types is shocking. The girls in 2012 look like children compared to the ones from six years before! It really highlights the latent pedophilic basis to this new standard that's being shoved down women's throats. If after watching that you still can't see what I'm talking about, it's simply because you don't want to. [Link]
coming soon Senior Member 1705 Posts 2/11	Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 4:20PM ^ Sorry, I've tried to compare the two contests you're referring to, but couldn't be able to find more information about the 2012 contest. You're right that they look much younger, but couldn't figure out the names to compare them all by posting their pics here. I'm not American and I'm not exposed to that kind of shows, so I'm unfamiliar with all of it. I didn't find the difference in body types shocking in the youtube videos, aside from the fact that they look younger and it's natural to be more slender the younger they are. Since I don't know much about these contests, I can't infer from the two videos that there is a trend like the one you describe. You might be right with this example, but I just don't have enough information to evaluate it. I disagree with your assertion that top models are the very definition of scrawny. I don't think Adriana Lima, Giselle Bundchen, Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer or Laetitia Casta fit that definition. It's true that there's been a very worrying trend towards the scrawny type (for about 20 years now) but that's not the case with the majority of the most relevant top models like the ones I named. You are mistaken in naming my taste for slender women a preference. I didn't say or even imply that, as you could've easily inferred when I, after saying that I like the top model type, said that I also love Nyomi Banxxx. You could've done better, but having read this thread it's not surprising since it appears you're making many assumptions about the people you're arguing with. So, to clarify: I don't particularly prefer slender women, like I don't particularly prefer dark haired over blond women, or black over white, or viceversa. Some of my favorites off the top of my head are Stoya, Sasha Grey, Mina Leigh, Puma Swede, Nyomi Banxxx, Diamond Jackson, Tori Black, Nikki Sexx, Jenna Presley, Nikki Benz, Rachel Roxxx, Veronica Avluv, Juelz Ventura, Nikki Jayne, Bella Moretti, Jennifer White, Bailey Brooks, India Summer or Tricia Oaks. I also like the petite type like Tanner Mayes or milfs like Jewels Jade or Julia Ann and have a soft fetish for really big black women. So, to clarify, slender women is one of the types of women I like. If you feel like labeling this a pedophilic fetish, go ahead with your fantasy. Even if I think you're exaggerating to the point you're wrong, there are some cases where I've been worried with the excessive weight loss you mention, like was the case with Jennifer White some time ago. However, I think that was more related to drugs than to the pressures of the porn industry. Generally, I don't think a relevant number of porn stars look particularly unhealthy, like you're implying. Finally, If you feel DVD covers are being cherrypicked, do your homework and offer evidence that contradicts it. You're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof lies on you. If you feel insulting the people you're arguing with is a form of evidence, just google "evidence" and learn how to make sensible and compelling arguments. Just for starters, you could check out the Evil Angel site or Brazzers, which are the two most recent examples given as evidence against your claim. If you think there is a trend towards the "scrawny" type, go ahead and show us the evidence. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 12:23AM coming soon wrote: I didn't find the difference in body types shocking in the youtube videos, aside from the fact that they look younger and it's natural to be more slender the younger they are. Since I don't know much about these contests, I can't infer from the two videos that there is a trend like the one you describe. You might be right with this example, but I just don't have enough information to evaluate it. Click to expand Give me a break. Here, I'll actually post the links to the two videos. It's really dishonest to say there is not a drastic difference or to blame it on "youth" like we're comparing kids to adults (although it certainly seems that way)! Just look at the boyish chicken legs on some of the girls in the second group compared to the ones in the first. 2006 2012 I disagree with your assertion that top models are the very definition of scrawny. I don't think Adriana Lima, Giselle Bundchen, Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer or Laetitia Casta fit that definition. It's true that there's been a very worrying trend towards the scrawny type (for about 20 years now) but that's not the case with the majority of the most relevant top models like the ones I named. Click to expand To even put Adriana Lima and Giselle in the same category as Cindy Crawford and Laetitia Casta shows you really don't understand the issue at all. How could anyone claim these women have similar body types?!....Cindy and Laetitia had figures that are virtually unseen anymore in mainstream modeling. Lima and Giselle are at least 20 lbs lighter than either of those women in their prime. Some of my favorites off the top of my head are Stoya, Sasha Grey, Mina Leigh, Puma Swede, Nyomi Banxxx, Diamond Jackson, Tori Black, Nikki Sexx, Jenna Presley, Nikki Benz, Rachel Roxxx, Veronica Avluv, Juelz Ventura, Nikki Jayne, Bella Moretti, Jennifer White, Bailey Brooks, India Summer or Tricia Oaks.... ...Even if I think you're exaggerating to the point you're wrong, there are some cases where I've been worried with the excessive weight loss you mention, like was the case with Jennifer White some time ago. However, I think that was more related to drugs than to the pressures of the porn industry. Generally, I don't think a relevant number of porn stars look particularly unhealthy, like you're implying. Click to expand Except almost every girl you mentioned has lost considerable amounts of weight since they first got famous! And it's not just Jennifer White. Tori Black is much thinner now and she was already petite when starting out. And are you honestly telling me you haven't noticed the difference with Rachel Roxxx?? Before: After: Do you really NOT see what I'm talking about? I couldn't even care less if you prefer the second picture, the drastic weight loss is undeniable. And like every other girl undergoing this wasteful transformation she doesn't look healthier or in better shape, she just looks older, boney and shapeless. And it's exactly things like this that makes me sound so condescending when arguing about this stuff. Everyone who argues against these points comes across as either clueless or dishonest. [Link]

BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 12:37AM No doubt there's a lot of pressure on many performers to lose weight, both within the industry and within society, plus add not infrequent issues with drug use among some performers and and an unhealthy drop in weight isn't unknown. But then many very popular performers are quite voluptuous: Gianna, Charley Chase, Jayden James, Alexis Texas, etc. I'm not convinced that the majority of fans are demanding the skinny look in US porn. Look at Ava Rose, if anything she seemed to attract more attention from fans when she gained weight. Ditto Brianna Love. Edited by - BlackSix on 6/4/2012 12:37:33 AM [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 1:01AM BlackSix wrote: But then many very popular performers are quite voluptuous: Gianna, Charley Chase, Jayden James, Alexis Texas, etc. I'm not convinced that the majority of fans are demanding the skinny look in US porn. Look at Ava Rose, if anything she seemed to attract more attention from fans when she gained weight. Ditto Brianna Love. Click to expand First, please look at recent pics of Gianna. I follow her on twitter and let's just say I was very saddened by what I saw. Charley, Jayden and Alexis are also noticeably thinner than before and I'll post pics if needed. But I definitely agree that both Ava Rose and Brianna Love became more famous after gaining weight. Second, and just as importantly, I'm not suggesting at all that the majority of fans are demanding the skeletal look. In fact I'm saying the opposite. The waif fetishists have always been a small but vocal minority. I personally only know one other person in real life who finds the scrawny look appealing. And that's the most fucked up part of this new trend -- it's completely arbitrary and artificial. It's like all the sudden we're supposed to believe that most beautiful women prior to 3 years ago were all fat and out of shape! Some of the most iconic names in both porn and mainstream would not qualify by this creepy new criteria. It's stupid and irrational on every possible level. [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 3:29AM I think some of what you say is overstated pornication. From my perspective, porn has always tried to trend towards the very young (18-21) and skinny/small/petite. I don't think there is anything new or unique about it. I think most producers have always thought thin will outsell anything else. Used to be that was all you mostly saw on boxcovers, with the more curvy girls being regulated to the back box cover and sometimes not even shown. [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 5:07AM ^ I don't agree that porn used to always favor petite. I also never saw most girls going out of their way to look a certain size. Now, not only is there pressure to look "petite", the very definition of the term has changed. The word used to mean a normally smaller-framed woman. It didn't mean boney and underweight. Those body types were never so prevalent until just 3-4 years ago. How can I be possibly 'overstating the case' when virtually every girl with very few exceptions is losing all kinds of weight? Those Before and After pics I posted of Rachel Roxx can be applied to 9 out of 10 girls I've followed in porn in the last 5 years. I'll go ahead and post more examples if you want -- it will easily add 10 pages to the thread and I still won't be done. Edited by - pornication on 6/4/2012 5:19:06 AM [Link]
Sexy Sadie All-Star Member I came to turn on everyone 978 Posts 6/10	Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 7:55AM ^Not that I'm disagreeing with you regarding the fact of some/many pornstars' weight-loss, but 10 pages would be unnecessary - maybe just make good on your previous claim, to wit: Pornication wrote: ...please look at recent pics of Gianna. I follow her on twitter and let's just say I was very saddened by what I saw. Charley, Jayden and Alexis are also noticeably thinner than before and I'll post pics if needed... Click to expand The discussion/debate regarding the reasons for the alleged weight loss surely must come after some evidence confirms we're not just shooting the breeze here. [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 5 2012 : 2:53AM I could probably name just as many who have gained more than a few pounds recently. Again not trying to suggest the pressure is never there, but just think your overstating things, or simply overreacting. Some people do like to lose weight to get in better shape or to get more healthy. Now if you can prove performers are losing weight and suddenly getting a lot more work, I'd be more prone to really agree. [Link]
more_cowbell Member 162 Posts 2/12	Posted - Jun 5 2012 : 4:53AM KatjaKassin wrote: European women have the typical caucasian body type and features (slender body, high cheek bones, light eyes etc) and that's what a lot of people around the world consider the beauty standard. However, in the Americas there's a larger variety of ethnic minorities (meaning non white people) that find a different look more attractive: wider hips, more butt, hour glass shape and maybe more exotic (non Caucasian) features. Porn producers know this and offer different products that cater to different tastes: there are Asian themed releases, African American featured movies, Latinas, skinny teens, busty milfs etc. The US has a more diverse population than European countries, especially Eastern Europe where there is not much racial variety. It's really a discussion that will lead nowhere. Different strokes for different folks. I personally do not fit into the typical look of European porn and that's why I was never very successful over there whereas here in the US my butt gets a lot of stares. At home I always was made fun of for it. I do eat very healthy but I still got meat on my bones. People just have different body types, doesn't mean they are self indulgent or junkies. Some are chunky, some are skinny. Click to expand Are there many women like you with the same balance of impressive beauty and brains? If not would you mind if scientists clone you over and over to benefit mankind? [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 5 2012 : 9:34AM Aplus wrote: I could probably name just as many who have gained more than a few pounds recently. Click to expand Other than Ava Rose, can you please name the others?...Even Brianna Love seems like she's going back down to her pre-fame shape. Again not trying to suggest the pressure is never there, but just think your overstating things, or simply overreacting. Some people do like to lose weight to get in better shape or to get more healthy. Click to expand Actually the truth is you're understating the issue. Normal girls losing a shitload of weight has nothing to do with "health" -- especially when they end up looking pretty damn sickly. Like the tramp stamp, black nail polish and other arbitrary trends, this is just a case of following what everyone else is doing. And it's turning perfectly beautiful girls into meth-head impersonators. Now if you can prove performers are losing weight and suddenly getting a lot more work, I'd be more prone to really agree. Click to expand Again, I'm not saying they're doing it to get work or that the industry as a whole is pressuring them. I think it's a result of the retarded new standard being shoved down society's throat. Porn girls aren't the only ones ruining themselves like this. I'm seeing it all over in everyday life. Some of the hottest women I personally know are starving themselves with disastrous results. [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Jun 7 2012 : 5:29AM Pornication wrote: First, please look at recent pics of Gianna. I follow her on twitter and let's just say I was very saddened by what I saw. Click to expand Really? She's looking good to me, this is from Jman's eXXXotica Miami 2012 thread. [Link]
Dubious_Leftovers Senior Member And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me... 1423 Posts 3/09	Posted - Jun 7 2012 : 8:27AM ^Why she looks skeletal... SKELETAL I tell ye! [Link]
bootymeister Senior Member Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08	Posted - Jun 8 2012 : 9:54AM Pornication wrote: ^ It really all started with the fashion industry, which coincidentally is run ... They don’t just “exercise” – they STARVE themselves. You never saw girls like this in porn until very recently and they were absent in all other forms of entertainment... Click to expand Dead wrong, these complaints have been standard about movie actresses, tv actresses, singers and porn stars since the 80s. In the early 80s, when I was in my late teens, society was already addressing obsession with weight loss and anorexia among women both young and mature. Unfortunately, Katja Kassin would have had no shot at a career in American porn until the DVD era in the early 2000s, and she was not even close to being overweight. Today's white porn performers are more diverse than ever: natural and augmented, unmarked and tattooed, gorgeous and homely, 38 and 18, fit and sloppy, brunette and blond, thin and thick and obese. [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 9 2012 : 4:17AM Exactly Bootymeister! Within the last ten years, I don't think porn has ever been diverse more in bodytypes. The distribution isn't always fair or equal when it comes to more prestige or sometimes lucrative parts, but it's clearly there. And after looking around a little at some newer stuff, I'm just not seeing this forced-thinning, well at least not in porn. Now there are some who clearly think America has an obesity problem. It's in the news everyday, with the New York Governor or mayor, can't remember his title right now, threating to ban all oversized sodas at local stores. Edited by - aplus on 6/9/2012 4:18:18 AM [Link]
BSD Senior Member San Diego, CA 2508 Posts 11/03	Posted - Jun 9 2012 : 6:45AM Friends - I was going to get in this, but I'm old, and tired, and been here too long. Then I remembered that we did this before, (the porn girls fat\scrawny discussion), almost ten years ago. With the participation of a lot of real porn stars of the day. Jewel DeNyle, Kami Andrews, Katja Kassin, Kylie Ireland, Tricia Devereaux and others. Porn Actresses Losing Weight It's interesting to go back and read that one and compare it to this one. BSD [Link]
THICK_LOVA54 Senior Member Wielding a sword without fear of it is to be unworthy of the blade. 1441 Posts 5/10	Posted - Jun 9 2012 : 8:54PM ^...encore encore! "There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered." -Mandela [Link]
Pornication Member 130 Posts 1/10	Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 1:49AM bootymeister wrote: Dead wrong, these complaints have been standard about movie actresses, tv actresses, singers and porn stars since the 80s. In the early 80s, when I was in my late teens, society was already addressing obsession with weight loss and anorexia among women both young and mature. Click to expand Except you rarely saw women as boney as Angelina Jolie and countless others in Hollywood until well into the last decade. Just google images from shows like Baywatch in the 90s and compare those bodies to what you see today. I also never suggested Anorexia or excessive weight loss didn't exist before. What I'm pointing out is that it was never as mainstream and standard as it is now. Unfortunately, Katja Kassin would have had no shot at a career in American porn until the DVD era in the early 2000s Click to expand Wrong again! Ever heard of Tanya Foxx or Kristy Lynn? How about the legendary Buttman series that started years before the likes of Katja came along? I honestly can't decide if some of you are really dishonest or just really clueless. And for the tenth time, I'm not saying curvy girls don't do porn anymore...I'm saying the ones that do always end up losing a significant amount of weight after starting out. I really don't know how to make that any more clear. Edited by - pornication on 6/13/2012 2:15:14 AM [Link]
Aplus Senior Member 1431 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 3:14AM And for the eleventh time, I heard you. I simply don't agree with you and somehow am not seeing what you apparently are. [Link]

Author

Post

Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 2:36PM

What's even more troubling to me is America's new obsession with declaring every young woman, who isn't exactly 5'5" and 110lbs, as automatically unfit and out of shape. Just seem like there is a new standard being set that most women will never qualify for.

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 3:40PM

^ Exactly.

There is a very creepy pedophilic subtext to what is being pushed today as feminine beauty.
I've never been less attracted to women in porn (and all entertainment for that matter) as I am right now. They're not unattractive by default -- they just systematically ruin themselves to look like the waif they think they HAVE to be. And I think the rest of us as consumers have to be more outspoken about this nonsense. It's pretty much getting to the point where anorexic is becoming standard.
Some of my all time favorites like Ryan Conner and April Flowers would have been considered out of shape by today's retarded criteria, even though they had more toned muscle in one leg than the average skeletor has in her whole body.

[Link]

Simpsona
Senior Member

2389 Posts
8/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 6:36PM

^
When you say today are you meaning the last 10 years or so because when i think back to when i first started taking note of porn stars,around 10 years ago,girls like Jenna Haze and Aurora Snow also come to mind so it's hardly a new thing.
Also let me just say.....Phoenix Marie,Jayden Jaymes,Kagney Linn Karter and the list goes on and on of porn stars that dispel your perception of what you think every porn star looks like right now.

[Link]

THICK_LOVA54
Senior Member

Wielding a sword without fear of it is to be unworthy of the blade.
1441 Posts
5/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:03PM

Was that to me? I thought I was making a very relavant but unbiased statement. My philosophy professor would always tell me I ride the fence too hard lol.
"There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered." -Mandela

[Link]

THICK_LOVA54
Senior Member

Wielding a sword without fear of it is to be unworthy of the blade.
1441 Posts
5/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:05PM

For the record you're my favorite poster hardware, though I doubt you care for flattery.
"There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered." -Mandela

[Link]

Simpsona
Senior Member

2389 Posts
8/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:10PM

^^
No,you sneaked your post in just before mine,i went back and added an extra ^ in the hope you would realise it wasn't aimed at you

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:13PM

From your responses so far I knew you were too young. If you only started taking notice of porn the last decade you simply don't have the perspective needed to see the big picture here. But I'll go ahead and waste time answering this.
Jenna Haze and Aurora snow were both petite, not skeletal.
There were always petite women in porn like the ones I've already mentioned. Back in the 80s and 90s you also had slender women right alongside the likes of Christy Canyon, Keisha and Lisa Melendez. They were all considered sexy in their own way and there was no pressure to conform to ONE standard size like there is now. There were hardly any skeletal, malnourished women in mainstream porn until the latter part of the last decade -- Now they are the majority.

Phoenix Marie and Jayden James have both lost considerable weight since they entered the biz. Especially Phoenix who is barely even recognizable. And just because there are a token few who are not anorexic or excessively thin (yet) doesn't mean the majority aren't. Almost every girl who enters porn now ends up losing around 15-20 lbs within a year, sometimes even more. And one would have to be full of crap to deny that. I can't think of a single girl I liked a year or two ago who hasn't lost a considerable amount of weight.

[Link]

Hardware

All-Star Member

Your other left
14595 Posts
3/02

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:19PM

Erm, thanks. I'll take some comfort from that the next time I put my foot in it.

[Link]

Simpsona
Senior Member

2389 Posts
8/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 7:31PM

^^
I'll give you the fact that there are a fair few women who lose weight after entering porn but that could be because of other reason's than you think.Like not having to work a 9-5 type job and having more free time to do other things like spending more time at the gym.
Also,too young for what exactly?That comment supports what i said earlier in this thread about you being just a tad condescending.

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:07PM

You wanna know why I'm "condescending"? Because of stupid comments like this! It's pretty clear you like the scrawny type and just want to defend it no matter what, but you lack the facts and also the intellect to come up with something remotely sensible, so you just throw stuff against the wall and hope something sticks.
People don't lose drastic amounts of weight like these girls do unless they're really going out of their way (i.e. starving themselves). I've been a member of gyms for 20 years now and have seen plenty of women who worked out regularly -- They were all toned and in shape, some of them were also slender, but I never saw one who looked malnourished and emaciated like most of these girls are. I also can't pretend that porn stars didn't exercise until recently! You want to think they look like skeletons now because they have "more free time"? Knock yourself the fuck out. But don't expect me not to point out how dumb and wishful your reasoning is.

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Simpsona
Senior Member

2389 Posts
8/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:16PM

^
These girls?Most girls?Who exactly are you talking about?
Again with the ranting and again i'll ask if you're OK?

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:21PM

Don't worry about it kid.:) I won't even bother making a sarcastic comment because it'll just go over your head like everything else. Go waste someone else's time.

[Link]

Simpsona
Senior Member

2389 Posts
8/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 8:37PM

^
It would've probably been better to say nothing rather than that pretty lame reply,but hey i guess you just couldn't help yourself

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 9:15PM

If it wasn't for lame replies your post count would be zero.
You suck at thinking. Stop trying.

[Link]

Dubious_Leftovers
Senior Member

And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me...
1423 Posts
3/09

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 10:00PM

Topic is complete silliness.
No, American porn women aren't "low calibre"; there are an incredible amount of good-looking women in American movies. The top studios feature these girls as standard... What are people looking at?
Also, other body-types are allowed as a given right to have a personal preference.
Edited by - Dubious_Leftovers on 6/1/2012 10:02:40 PM

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 10:56PM

They certainly are good looking before the starvation kicks in for most of them. Otherwise, no...I don't find the heroin chic look attractive. If you do, good for you -- this is a golden age for guys with your fetish. Just admit it for what it is.

If somebody's "personal preference" is geared toward unhealthy anorexic women, if their fetish involves women starving themselves, if they like girls that look unmistakably childlike, they may have the "right" to that preference, but others also have the right to call them out for it. Plain and simple.

[Link]

Dubious_Leftovers
Senior Member

And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me...
1423 Posts
3/09

Posted - Jun 1 2012 : 11:53PM

^Okay, whatever.
Yep, every girl in porn is a skeleton (or is going to be), and heroin chic is so "in". Oh, and most of us are latent pedophiles too (nice to know, cheers!)
I thought I was okay in liking American covers like these...

...But as it turns out, these eight recent examples of American pornographic box art feature anorexic women, sporting the heroin chic look, because that's what American-buying customers DEMAND... Well there's a turn-up!
Looks like it's fat, granny porn for me then! Wouldn't want anybody thinking I'm endorsing any kind of perceived weight-loss in women, or get thought of as liking little kiddies!

[Link]

Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 12:54AM

But see that's the beauty of American Porn to me dubious. The fact that porn, especially American Porn, has been embracing all body-types has put it head and shoulders above any other medium. I would hate to see it go away from it. I mean I think there have been subtle attempts over the last 10-15 years, but luckily too many porn fans have denounced or avoided it. I love the variety of porn. I think there are some instances of exclusion near the very top sometimes, but overall the balance seems good to me.

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 1:29AM

Most of those covers have the word Big or Phat in the title.:) Which just further proves my point. Curvy (or even just normal) has become a niche in porn like the MILF. When you check out standard films, most girls are scrawny especially when you remember how they looked when they started out.
Go on the model section of any major internet company. You'll see girl after girl with skeletal bodies literally unseen in porn just 5 years ago.
I follow a good number of porn girls on twitter. In every single case except ONE they have lost significant amounts of weight in the last couple of years even when they were already on the thin side to begin with. I could name more than a few just off the top of my head.
There is really no denying the anorexic trend in porn and it's becoming worse and worse. Just go on twitter and check out the older pics of some of these girls and compare them to their present ones -- in most cases the difference is startling. Not to mention depressing.

[Link]

Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 2:01AM

I think they'll always be some pressure, subtle or exact, for some women to drop pounds to work for certain companies. I'm not one who automatically thinks that a woman, who drops a few pounds, was pressured to do so. Dubious showed many recent acceptions from top-flight companies. Sure the titles suggest a niche, but the fact there are so many sort of balances things. To me, those kind of titles seem more like the norm now, than the old niche. I just think the general direction has changed.

[Link]

Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 2:13AM

I really want to believe this. But it's impossible when I see girl after girl losing 20 lbs shortly after entering the industry. And I'm not saying they're always pressured to do so by companies. A lot of it is just conforming to this stupid new concept of size two = hot.
The individual reasons are really irrelevant for me at this point. What I do know is that for the first time ever I'm turned off by most women in porn. And many of these women are ones that I was at first very attracted to.

[Link]

Simpsona
Senior Member

2389 Posts
8/10

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 8:31AM

Rather than trying your hand at jokes you ought to just stick with the old rants.There much more amusing.

[Link]

David Cop-a-feel
Deactivated User

Trust me, honey, it gets better
323 Posts
10/10

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 9:31AM

Though Pornication is perhaps rather strident, I do find myself nodding in agreement with his comments. He rather astutely points out that women with curves (ie,normal) have to be marketed as having "big" this or or "phat" that ,nowadays, so clearly there's been a shift as far as what is considered "normal" to a skinnier,more boyish look. I agree, it is unhealthy and less attractive.

[Link]

Hardware

All-Star Member

Your other left
14595 Posts
3/02

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 12:40PM

Marketing hype is the new reality?

[Link]

Dubious_Leftovers
Senior Member

And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me...
1423 Posts
3/09

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 4:07PM

Pornication, David Cop-a-feel-
There are a few different things being discussed here, and I think in terms of trying to keep a level head, I think each factor should be taken on its own merits because there are different factors at hand...
a)Marketing: Just because the words "phat" and "big" are used in a title, it doesn't suggest that these terms are niche or otherwise unattractive; they're just terms synonymous with/in place of "curvy" for example. "Phat" is a term on its own; it's not literally fat, and none of these titles are marketed as BBW releases (which would use different terms again).

EVERY porn film gets marketed to a particular audience; Even "normal" is a niche, but no company is going to title their title "Normal Girls #224" for example, because in marketing, "normal"= boring and who wants a title to basically read "Boring Girls"...? "Phat" goes with the word 'juicy', for example, and as a lot of these titles show a popular love for tits and arse - these are good words to use to make one's product enticing.
As I said, there is no use of "normal" in marketing terms; Older-looking is MILF. Thin/skinny often gets called "Teen" or "Spinner" (which is in fact, a niche). A woman sporting a hairy muff (which is the most natural thing an adult woman can have) conforms to a "Hairy" niche. Ethnicity (Asian, black, latin etc.), small tits, large tits, natural tits, fake tits, tattoos/alt porn... all of these are specifically catered for, categorised and marketed. Nowhere is the word "normal" used.
The other option, is not to market the title on body-type, but rather by act/specific fetish (feature, foot, anal, D.P. etc.) Looking at say, the more recent Evil Angel titles (still a premier company), these are some of the recent (last few months) non-specific body-type titles:

These above, form a good proportion of the releases that I can post here (complying to Image Policy). As one can see, none are labeled 'Phat" "Big" "Curvy" "Round" etc., but act-driven or all-sex titles featuring healthy-looking women on the covers to sell them; no-one here looks remotely emaciated to me.
Remember, these companies are long-lasting, and highly established. They know how to market and they know what sells. If curves are so niche, it wouldn't be worth selling and making these women cover stars, title after title. Many porn studios have closed the last few years, the ones that remain must be confident that there titles are popular enough to keep them in existence; the fact that on forums such as this that clamber for the next installment of 'Big Wet Asses' proves that curves are still massively popular and the companies know this.
Okay, that's my thoughts on that particular aspect... Now, the other factors:
b) General Weight Loss: This, I'm not as sure about as what it's alluding to involves behind-the-scenes chitter-chatter that we aren't privy to. One thing I do recall, was that Ava Rose once publicly came out to say she felt pressured to lose weight by someone who'd potentially hire her; how common occurrences like that are, I do not know. I do know that porn stars who have noticeably gained weight still get regular work, so whether this is common or she was just unlucky, I cannot say.
If girls' Twitter pics are gradually showing thinness over months... well... I don't follow that world closely. If it genuinely is the case, there are reasons at hand that do not reflect fan wishes, but something fucked within the industry itself that we as porn fans don't see; the reasons are speculative.
I restate: All body-types are more than ably catered for... Purely on topic, the women in American porn themselves aren't low calibre. There's always fucked-up shit behind the scenes, but that's a different topic I feel...
Edited by - Dubious_Leftovers on 6/2/2012 7:04:47 PM

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coming soon
Senior Member

1705 Posts
2/11

Posted - Jun 2 2012 : 6:54PM

^This. All of it.
Also, I wonder where are those women who look like skeletons? If that's a general trend, it should be easily noticeable in every big porn company. Evil Angel, Elegant Angel, Brazzers... where are those unhealthy anorexic women that confirm this so called trend?

[Link]

KatjaKassin
Senior Member

1257 Posts
5/03

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 2:39AM

European women have the typical caucasian body type and features (slender body, high cheek bones, light eyes etc) and that's what a lot of people around the world consider the beauty standard.
However, in the Americas there's a larger variety of ethnic minorities (meaning non white people) that find a different look more attractive: wider hips, more butt, hour glass shape and maybe more exotic (non Caucasian) features. Porn producers know this and offer different products that cater to different tastes: there are Asian themed releases, African American featured movies, Latinas, skinny teens, busty milfs etc.
The US has a more diverse population than European countries, especially Eastern Europe where there is not much racial variety.
It's really a discussion that will lead nowhere. Different strokes for different folks.
I personally do not fit into the typical look of European porn and that's why I was never very successful over there whereas here in the US my butt gets a lot of stares. At home I always was made fun of for it. I do eat very healthy but I still got meat on my bones. People just have different body types, doesn't mean they are self indulgent or junkies. Some are chunky, some are skinny.

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Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 4:08AM

Great all-around post Katja. To me, the OP was stating a personal preference and/or opinion. Not all of it based on real facts.
There are few, if any, countries more diverse than the United states. Porn reflects this more now than any other time I can remember.

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Mike1120
Deactivated User

17 Posts
5/12

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 4:31AM

I totally agree about Hollywood and the Fashion Industry. We adore and worship women and their beauty, yet are seen and talked about as wanting to objectify women. Meanwhile, they physically and mentally tear down very young women, make them adopt material values, and then throw them away after they have either turned into skin and bones or have picked up a laugh line.
At least in American porn, a woman can start out young in the business, take more control of her career, and go well into her late years. We have young, MILF, GILF, and probably more that I'm skipping. Raylene and Lisa Ann are two great examples of stars that have had longer careers. Very curvy and we love 'em.
As far as if American versus European is any issue, I can only comment that Black Angelika sounds hot when she talks, and is even hotter when she performs.

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Alzharhok
Senior Member

1481 Posts
6/10

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 5:14AM

I'd say on average I prefer American girls over European girls by quite a wide margin so I obviously don't agree.
I think Katja pretty much nailed it though, different types of girls, different ideas about the ideal look. It's kinda pointless to have a big back and forth when it's mostly personal preference.

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coming soon
Senior Member

1705 Posts
2/11

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 5:22AM

In terms of personality, I prefer the American performers. Being native English speakers helps a lot, but it also has to do with the culture itself, language aside. We're talking about a more varied society that puts special emphasis on the individual. Porn is no exception.
For example, my favorite performer overall is Stoya. She could very well be European, given her features, but there's something about her personality (her tastes, ideas, other stuff she does, media exposure aside from porn oriented media, etc.) that makes her even more unique. Those other aspects about her wouldn't probably be there if she were European.
Talking stricktly about flesh, I think there are many beautiful European performers (Eastern European for the most part). You just need to check Eurobabeindex. Many of them are, to my standards, jaw-dropping beautiful, and I enjoy the likes of Jessica Rox, Ashley Stillar, the slender Anjelica or past performers such as Nikita Gross or Anja Juliette Laval, but as Katja says there's a lot less variety. I like the very young top model type, which is and has always been very present in European porn, but at the same time I love Nyomi Banxxx, and I'm glad that she can have a long career in porn, so I'm well served from both sides of the Atlantic.

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Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 7:56AM

I already said go checkout the model pages of every major internet company. You want more? Look at scenes prior to 2007 or so, then compare them to what you see today. One would have to be in willful denial to not acknowledge the significant difference in the average girl's weights, especially when comparing scenes featuring the same girl.
Then again you already said you're attracted to "top model" types which basically means you like the very slender look, as most of those girls are often the very definition of scrawny. So I suspect like most people sharing your preference you consider that body type to be just average and don't believe there is even such a thing as too skinny, and worse, you'll twist yourself into a pretzel to deny common sense evidence, so this discussion is only going to waste both of our times.

And to everyone else, I'm not talking about natural body types or petite versus curvy, so that "to each his own" stuff doesn't really apply here. What I'm objecting to is the increasingly homogenized look of porn girls as the bullshit Size Two Ideal becomes more and more accepted as standard. You can keep nitpicking DVD covers here and there all you like, but that is not going to counter the fact that just about every girl I've followed in the last 3 years or so has lost a remarkable amount of weight to the point where some are hardly even recognizable. Even some of the current "big booty" types like Alexis Texas have lost around 20 lbs since they first made their names.
Looking at the big picture it's insane to deny it: Like in all other forms of entertainment, porn girls are getting thinner and thinner, and in most cases that means they're looking less and less attractive due to excessive weight loss. Only naturally slender women look good that way. A curvy woman trying to appear petite will only look malnourished. What I miss is the old days when beauty wasn't judged based on whether the girls were petite or curvy; when both types were found sexy in their own way without the curvy ones losing crazy amounts of weight just to "fit in".
If you want a good illustration of this crazy cultural trend that's shaping all this, go on youtube and watch the Diva bikini contest from 2006, then contrast it with the same contest from 2012. The difference in body types is shocking. The girls in 2012 look like children compared to the ones from six years before! It really highlights the latent pedophilic basis to this new standard that's being shoved down women's throats. If after watching that you still can't see what I'm talking about, it's simply because you don't want to.

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coming soon
Senior Member

1705 Posts
2/11

Posted - Jun 3 2012 : 4:20PM

^ Sorry, I've tried to compare the two contests you're referring to, but couldn't be able to find more information about the 2012 contest. You're right that they look much younger, but couldn't figure out the names to compare them all by posting their pics here. I'm not American and I'm not exposed to that kind of shows, so I'm unfamiliar with all of it. I didn't find the difference in body types shocking in the youtube videos, aside from the fact that they look younger and it's natural to be more slender the younger they are. Since I don't know much about these contests, I can't infer from the two videos that there is a trend like the one you describe. You might be right with this example, but I just don't have enough information to evaluate it.
I disagree with your assertion that top models are the very definition of scrawny. I don't think Adriana Lima, Giselle Bundchen, Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer or Laetitia Casta fit that definition. It's true that there's been a very worrying trend towards the scrawny type (for about 20 years now) but that's not the case with the majority of the most relevant top models like the ones I named.
You are mistaken in naming my taste for slender women a preference. I didn't say or even imply that, as you could've easily inferred when I, after saying that I like the top model type, said that I also love Nyomi Banxxx. You could've done better, but having read this thread it's not surprising since it appears you're making many assumptions about the people you're arguing with. So, to clarify: I don't particularly prefer slender women, like I don't particularly prefer dark haired over blond women, or black over white, or viceversa. Some of my favorites off the top of my head are Stoya, Sasha Grey, Mina Leigh, Puma Swede, Nyomi Banxxx, Diamond Jackson, Tori Black, Nikki Sexx, Jenna Presley, Nikki Benz, Rachel Roxxx, Veronica Avluv, Juelz Ventura, Nikki Jayne, Bella Moretti, Jennifer White, Bailey Brooks, India Summer or Tricia Oaks. I also like the petite type like Tanner Mayes or milfs like Jewels Jade or Julia Ann and have a soft fetish for really big black women. So, to clarify, slender women is one of the types of women I like. If you feel like labeling this a pedophilic fetish, go ahead with your fantasy.
Even if I think you're exaggerating to the point you're wrong, there are some cases where I've been worried with the excessive weight loss you mention, like was the case with Jennifer White some time ago. However, I think that was more related to drugs than to the pressures of the porn industry. Generally, I don't think a relevant number of porn stars look particularly unhealthy, like you're implying.
Finally, If you feel DVD covers are being cherrypicked, do your homework and offer evidence that contradicts it. You're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof lies on you. If you feel insulting the people you're arguing with is a form of evidence, just google "evidence" and learn how to make sensible and compelling arguments. Just for starters, you could check out the Evil Angel site or Brazzers, which are the two most recent examples given as evidence against your claim. If you think there is a trend towards the "scrawny" type, go ahead and show us the evidence.

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Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 12:23AM

Give me a break. Here, I'll actually post the links to the two videos. It's really dishonest to say there is not a drastic difference or to blame it on "youth" like we're comparing kids to adults (although it certainly seems that way)! Just look at the boyish chicken legs on some of the girls in the second group compared to the ones in the first.
2006
2012

To even put Adriana Lima and Giselle in the same category as Cindy Crawford and Laetitia Casta shows you really don't understand the issue at all. How could anyone claim these women have similar body types?!....Cindy and Laetitia had figures that are virtually unseen anymore in mainstream modeling. Lima and Giselle are at least 20 lbs lighter than either of those women in their prime.

Except almost every girl you mentioned has lost considerable amounts of weight since they first got famous! And it's not just Jennifer White. Tori Black is much thinner now and she was already petite when starting out. And are you honestly telling me you haven't noticed the difference with Rachel Roxxx??
Before:
rachel roxx sasdas.jpg

After:

Do you really NOT see what I'm talking about? I couldn't even care less if you prefer the second picture, the drastic weight loss is undeniable. And like every other girl undergoing this wasteful transformation she doesn't look healthier or in better shape, she just looks older, boney and shapeless.
And it's exactly things like this that makes me sound so condescending when arguing about this stuff. Everyone who argues against these points comes across as either clueless or dishonest.

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BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 12:37AM

No doubt there's a lot of pressure on many performers to lose weight, both within the industry and within society, plus add not infrequent issues with drug use among some performers and and an unhealthy drop in weight isn't unknown.
But then many very popular performers are quite voluptuous: Gianna, Charley Chase, Jayden James, Alexis Texas, etc. I'm not convinced that the majority of fans are demanding the skinny look in US porn. Look at Ava Rose, if anything she seemed to attract more attention from fans when she gained weight. Ditto Brianna Love.
Edited by - BlackSix on 6/4/2012 12:37:33 AM

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Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 1:01AM

First, please look at recent pics of Gianna. I follow her on twitter and let's just say I was very saddened by what I saw. Charley, Jayden and Alexis are also noticeably thinner than before and I'll post pics if needed. But I definitely agree that both Ava Rose and Brianna Love became more famous after gaining weight.
Second, and just as importantly, I'm not suggesting at all that the majority of fans are demanding the skeletal look. In fact I'm saying the opposite. The waif fetishists have always been a small but vocal minority. I personally only know one other person in real life who finds the scrawny look appealing. And that's the most fucked up part of this new trend -- it's completely arbitrary and artificial. It's like all the sudden we're supposed to believe that most beautiful women prior to 3 years ago were all fat and out of shape! Some of the most iconic names in both porn and mainstream would not qualify by this creepy new criteria. It's stupid and irrational on every possible level.

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Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 3:29AM

I think some of what you say is overstated pornication. From my perspective, porn has always tried to trend towards the very young (18-21) and skinny/small/petite. I don't think there is anything new or unique about it. I think most producers have always thought thin will outsell anything else. Used to be that was all you mostly saw on boxcovers, with the more curvy girls being regulated to the back box cover and sometimes not even shown.

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Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 5:07AM

^ I don't agree that porn used to always favor petite. I also never saw most girls going out of their way to look a certain size.
Now, not only is there pressure to look "petite", the very definition of the term has changed. The word used to mean a normally smaller-framed woman. It didn't mean boney and underweight. Those body types were never so prevalent until just 3-4 years ago.
How can I be possibly 'overstating the case' when virtually every girl with very few exceptions is losing all kinds of weight? Those Before and After pics I posted of Rachel Roxx can be applied to 9 out of 10 girls I've followed in porn in the last 5 years. I'll go ahead and post more examples if you want -- it will easily add 10 pages to the thread and I still won't be done.

Edited by - pornication on 6/4/2012 5:19:06 AM

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Sexy Sadie

All-Star Member

I came to turn on everyone
978 Posts
6/10

Posted - Jun 4 2012 : 7:55AM

^Not that I'm disagreeing with you regarding the fact of some/many pornstars' weight-loss, but 10 pages would be unnecessary - maybe just make good on your previous claim, to wit:

The discussion/debate regarding the reasons for the alleged weight loss surely must come after some evidence confirms we're not just shooting the breeze here.

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Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 5 2012 : 2:53AM

I could probably name just as many who have gained more than a few pounds recently. Again not trying to suggest the pressure is never there, but just think your overstating things, or simply overreacting. Some people do like to lose weight to get in better shape or to get more healthy.
Now if you can prove performers are losing weight and suddenly getting a lot more work, I'd be more prone to really agree.

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more_cowbell
Member

162 Posts
2/12

Posted - Jun 5 2012 : 4:53AM

KatjaKassin wrote:
European women have the typical caucasian body type and features (slender body, high cheek bones, light eyes etc) and that's what a lot of people around the world consider the beauty standard.
However, in the Americas there's a larger variety of ethnic minorities (meaning non white people) that find a different look more attractive: wider hips, more butt, hour glass shape and maybe more exotic (non Caucasian) features. Porn producers know this and offer different products that cater to different tastes: there are Asian themed releases, African American featured movies, Latinas, skinny teens, busty milfs etc.
The US has a more diverse population than European countries, especially Eastern Europe where there is not much racial variety.
It's really a discussion that will lead nowhere. Different strokes for different folks.
I personally do not fit into the typical look of European porn and that's why I was never very successful over there whereas here in the US my butt gets a lot of stares. At home I always was made fun of for it. I do eat very healthy but I still got meat on my bones. People just have different body types, doesn't mean they are self indulgent or junkies. Some are chunky, some are skinny.
Click to expand

Are there many women like you with the same balance of impressive beauty and brains?
If not would you mind if scientists clone you over and over to benefit mankind?

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Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 5 2012 : 9:34AM

Other than Ava Rose, can you please name the others?...Even Brianna Love seems like she's going back down to her pre-fame shape.

Actually the truth is you're understating the issue. Normal girls losing a shitload of weight has nothing to do with "health" -- especially when they end up looking pretty damn sickly. Like the tramp stamp, black nail polish and other arbitrary trends, this is just a case of following what everyone else is doing. And it's turning perfectly beautiful girls into meth-head impersonators.

Again, I'm not saying they're doing it to get work or that the industry as a whole is pressuring them. I think it's a result of the retarded new standard being shoved down society's throat. Porn girls aren't the only ones ruining themselves like this. I'm seeing it all over in everyday life. Some of the hottest women I personally know are starving themselves with disastrous results.

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BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Jun 7 2012 : 5:29AM

Really?

She's looking good to me, this is from Jman's eXXXotica Miami 2012 thread.

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Dubious_Leftovers
Senior Member

And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me...
1423 Posts
3/09

Posted - Jun 7 2012 : 8:27AM

^Why she looks skeletal... SKELETAL I tell ye!

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bootymeister
Senior Member

Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity
1589 Posts
11/08

Posted - Jun 8 2012 : 9:54AM

Dead wrong, these complaints have been standard about movie actresses, tv actresses, singers and porn stars since the 80s. In the early 80s, when I was in my late teens, society was already addressing obsession with weight loss and anorexia among women both young and mature.

Unfortunately, Katja Kassin would have had no shot at a career in American porn until the DVD era in the early 2000s, and she was not even close to being overweight.

Today's white porn performers are more diverse than ever: natural and augmented, unmarked and tattooed, gorgeous and homely, 38 and 18, fit and sloppy, brunette and blond, thin and thick and obese.

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Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 9 2012 : 4:17AM

Exactly Bootymeister!
Within the last ten years, I don't think porn has ever been diverse more in bodytypes. The distribution isn't always fair or equal when it comes to more prestige or sometimes lucrative parts, but it's clearly there. And after looking around a little at some newer stuff, I'm just not seeing this forced-thinning, well at least not in porn.
Now there are some who clearly think America has an obesity problem. It's in the news everyday, with the New York Governor or mayor, can't remember his title right now, threating to ban all oversized sodas at local stores.
Edited by - aplus on 6/9/2012 4:18:18 AM

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BSD
Senior Member

San Diego, CA
2508 Posts
11/03

Posted - Jun 9 2012 : 6:45AM

Friends -
I was going to get in this, but I'm old, and tired, and been here too long. Then I remembered that we did this before, (the porn girls fat\scrawny discussion), almost ten years ago. With the participation of a lot of real porn stars of the day. Jewel DeNyle, Kami Andrews, Katja Kassin, Kylie Ireland, Tricia Devereaux and others.
Porn Actresses Losing Weight
It's interesting to go back and read that one and compare it to this one.
BSD

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THICK_LOVA54
Senior Member

Wielding a sword without fear of it is to be unworthy of the blade.
1441 Posts
5/10

Posted - Jun 9 2012 : 8:54PM

...encore encore!
"There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered." -Mandela

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Pornication
Member

130 Posts
1/10

Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 1:49AM

Except you rarely saw women as boney as Angelina Jolie and countless others in Hollywood until well into the last decade. Just google images from shows like Baywatch in the 90s and compare those bodies to what you see today.
I also never suggested Anorexia or excessive weight loss didn't exist before. What I'm pointing out is that it was never as mainstream and standard as it is now.

Wrong again! Ever heard of Tanya Foxx or Kristy Lynn? How about the legendary Buttman series that started years before the likes of Katja came along?
I honestly can't decide if some of you are really dishonest or just really clueless.
And for the tenth time, I'm not saying curvy girls don't do porn anymore...I'm saying the ones that do always end up losing a significant amount of weight after starting out. I really don't know how to make that any more clear.
Edited by - pornication on 6/13/2012 2:15:14 AM

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Aplus
Senior Member

1431 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 3:14AM

And for the eleventh time, I heard you. I simply don't agree with you and somehow am not seeing what you apparently are.

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