I doubt I will watch the show but I always thought Penny was a blast (even when she was sober) with a ton of personality. I am a huge Dr. Drew-hater, so I doubt I'd have much positive to say about the program. But as Woody Allen says, "whatever works." '
Now the show is getting absurd about this whole rape thing. Apparently he is now "a rapist." I was horrified by his comment at first, and now I feel sorry for him.
BTW, I was never horrified by his comment. I never thought for a second he meant it in a harmful way. It wasn't the smartest thing to say but we all know, he isn't the smartest guy. I've been irritated by how the former Flame has handled it especially the mean things she said along with Duncan.
^ I was horrified when I thought he had said it in an aggressive way - as in, from the previews and the "coming up" edited portion. As soon as I realised they weren't going to show what happened, and the dude looked totally bemused (I don't think he can even hear enough to figure out exactly what's happening), I went back on my initial thoughts. As for the English guy, I think he is well practiced at the art of rehab, and I don't like what he's doing.
I know some people on this board find Dr. Drew's attitude toward porn troubling. However, his view on porn is not very different than large segments of our society. How many of us know someone who thinks porn is inherently unhealthy? I do not support this view but it should not dominate the over all assessment of his show. Unfortunately, Penny has used porn to reinforce some issues she has with intimacy. However, there are porn stars who are married and have found intimacy. There are porn stars who seek intimacy and do not use porn as mechanism to escape pursuing meaningful relationships. Thus, the fact that she has used porn to avoid a seriousl relationship, only applies to her as an individual. SEcondly, Dr. Drew has had rock stars who have addiction problems. The rock industry historically has had artists who are drug addicts and perhaps sex addicts. I have also have heard that comedians have a high propensity to suffer from manic depression or depression. I am curious if anyone here read articles to support this. NOte: I believe there is a song from black sabbath that discusses their drug use. It is called "Snowblind"? Does anyone here have any evidence that this song was about celebrating using cocaine?
^ I don't know about that song, but I do know that Drew doesn't try to persuade rock stars or other kinds of celebrity to stop being a celebrity, even though that's the easiest way to fall off the wagon. The only person I can remember who was dissuaded from participating his particular industry was the guy from Guns and Roses - Steve Adler - who wanted to go on tour, and his wife and Drew tried to stop him. But a) they didn't condemn the music industry as inherently prone to addiction/attracting disturbed souls, and b) Steve Aler is probably the most far gone drug addict I've ever seen on any season of this show, so the fact that he was dissuaded from going on tour doesn't really say anything. Mary Cary, on the other hand, was explicitly told that her porn persona had to go, and Penny/Jennie was told the same thing. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing for them individually, but you don't see other celebrities being told on entry that they should use their real name for health purposes, or that their celebrity persona is the key to their problems.
I agree with you. She is very troubled. Unfortunately, based on my readings it seems to be that troubled people seem to find their way into the creative industries(music, porn, comedy).I fully understand where you are coming from. When I find out women like this are in the porn industry, I make sure I DO NOT watch their videos. I know it can be argued that there is nothing wrong separating what the peformer does on film from their personal life, but that is just too much for me. It makes me wonder how prevalent troubled people are in other industries such as comedy. If it has been reported that a favorite comedian of mine was using comedy to mask real issues in their life, I may think twice about listening to their stand up routines as well. It is one thing, to use comedy to alleiviate your pain, but very often comedians may use comedy to mask their own sadness. The same is true for ordinary people who appear to be clowns very frequently.
Im not sure about Snowblind because i don't have Vol. 4 handy at the moment, but i know Hand of Doom was about falling into Heroin addiction. ----Dread----
Good luck. You might as well stop watching/listening to anything, because it's a sure bet that most people are troubled, and particularly those that seek a creative outlet.
^ Thirded. Get ready to throw out tons of stuff. Like Oasis? The Gallagher brothers had an abusive father. Like Guns & Roses? Axl Rose was sexually abused. Like Teri Hatcher? Molested as a child. And do I even need to get into The Jacksons? And as far as porn goes, the list is long and includes the men as well as the women. Look hard enough and almost everything you enjoy in life from the food you eat to the shoes on your feet is the result of someone's pain, least of all your porn. And Dr. Drew's view of porn is understandable given all the porn people he meets have been sexually abused and doing the work for them is simply reliving the trauma over and over again. Do you really expect him to have a positive view if that's his only exposure? And anyone who thinks that feminists hate porn clearly doesn't know the definition of "feminist."
Justice44, yes the song "Snowblind" from Black Sabbath was about cocaine. If you listen carefully near the beginning of the song, you can hear Ozzy quietly whisper the word "cocaine" but he would shout it every time they played it live. At the time Sabbath released this in 1972 on their Vol. 4 record, they had been fooling around with the drug and decided to make a song about their experiences with it - as they had with their other drug songs such as "Hand of Doom" and "Sweet Leaf". On the back of the original album on their liner notes they even thank the "Great COKE-Cola Company" as a sort of inside joke. Here are the lyrics of the song in question: Snowblind - Black Sabbath What you get and what you see Things that don't come easily Feeling happy in my vein Icicles are in my brain Cocaine Something blowing in my hair Winter's ice, it soon was dead Death would freeze my very soul Makes me happy, makes me cold My eyes are blind, but I can see The snowflakes glisten on the tree The sun no longer sets me free I feel there's no place freezing me Let the winter sunshine on Let me feel the frost of dawn Fill my dreams with flakes of snow Soon I'll feel the chilling go Don't you think I know what I'm doing Don't tell me that it's doing me wrong You're the one who's really a loser This is where I feel I belong Crystal world with winter flowers Turn my days to frozen hours Lying snowblind in the sun Will my ice age ever come? Edited by - Asmodeus on 12/9/2009 2:46:03 AM
Hi Clam Digger! It looks like you've been consistently watching this show, so I thought I'd ask you a question. I've just seen this show for the first time recently, but I only saw part way through the show. How do you think Jennie seems to be doing on the show overall?
Dr. Drew is very likely to have a strong bias toward the adult industry. There is not doubt about it. He is not as explicit and passionate about his disaproval of porn as Dr. Phil is but it is pretty latent. However, I am sure most of us know many people who share Dr. Drew's view that porn is not a noble profession. I disagree with his axiom and I do believe there is porn that is contrary to Dr. Drew's view. However, I do believe that he is sincere in his intentions of rehabilitating people from any addiction they have.
I am not sure that I agree with the notion that a majority of people are troubled. However, I would agree with your notion that those in a creative outlet are particlularly troubled. This is based on my readings of general pyschology.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 12:12PM
I first began to appreciate Penny Flame as a pornstar when i saw her perform with Manuel Ferrara. At about the same time, there was a friendly and very funny competition between Taryn Thomas and Penny on their respective threads on the Star Crossed formum. There I discovered that she had a blog on one of her web sites. Reading her blogs I found her to be smart and witty. She also displayed samples of her art and photography, witch showed me that behind the porno queen was an interesting individual. I own very little of her porn, but I've read a lot of what she has written. She started her latest blog, http://www.becommingjennie.com, after she had completed her treatment and left porn. I think, in her 1st entry on this site she said that she had learned sex addiction really was about not being able to experience intimacy. That was kind of an ah-ha moment for me, though now that I have given it more thought, I wonder why I had not considered that before. I think the show has progressed through 3 or 4 episodes now, and I'm not sure how she is coming off to viewers who are not reading her blog as they watch. However, if who watched the show and read her blogs, I think you will see an amazing transformation, which I find fascinating. Just as a side note: There has been a lot of criticism of the show and Dr. Drew. It is true that Dr. Drew comes off a little too smarmy, but no one seems to offer much criticism of Jennie, for being on such an "exploitative show". I find that interesting.
^ I think there have been a couple of comments about the contestants being there for money, and essentially "exploiting" themselves (though I don't think that was the language used). Edit: improper word usage. Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 12/9/2009 1:35:37 PM
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 2:15PM
^True, but it is interesting that no one points that finger at Jennie, directly. I don't wish to be misunderstood, though her motives may have have been different when she started the show, I think that as time has gone on, there is no question, IMHO, that her progression has certainly been incredibly honest. I guess one can grow used to taking ones clothes off and having sex with who knows how many people publicly, but to completely strip your soul bare, as she has, starting with this show, is really remarkable. If viewers are concentrating on Dr. Drew, they, it seems to me, are missing the point.
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 5:05PM
Well first of all Dr. Drew is a huge douchebag. Just about any criticism of him is more than warranted. As for Penny she is guilty of being extremely naive for letting that charlatan convince her that she is a sex addict and is a bad person for deflowering the (same age) male virgins when she was younger.
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Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 5:26PM
Charlatan? He as been the engine of her changed life. He is a doctor who appears to be eminently qualified to help people with their struggles with addiction. He may have methods that you disagree with, but he is hardly a charlatan.
^ I had a lot more of a problem with the way he told her she did nothing wrong - why is it that when a woman has sex with people younger than her/underage, she is being abused, and when a woman has sex with someone older than her/she is underage, she is being abused? I find this double standard troublesome for both men and women, and Drew simply brushed over the complexities and told her she didn't do anything wrong. I'm not saying she did - we never really learned about it - but it was definitely an over-simplification.
#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 6:52PM
Dean, have you watched any of these episodes? Granted, you never know what's going on in the editing room, but none of the Flame's segments have looked anything remotely like Dr. Drew is trying to convince her of anything, or draw anything out of her; basically, she walks in, sits down, and starts blabbing. He hardly gets a word in edgewise. It definitely looks like she showed up for this thing ready to tell the story she's telling.
^ITA, Harri. As for "nonexistent problems," well, I'm not sure why you say that. Jennie has admitted time and time again to having intimacy issues. She has childhood trauma. She's been raped. How are these things not problems, especially if she feels that they have been impeding or controlling her life? For chrissakes, most people who have never been in porn/never will be in porn have issues that some introspection and therapy could improve. Trust me, I can understand having a jaundiced eye toward Dr. Drew and the reality TV genre (is Drew a doctor or an entertainer at this point?), but I don't understand throwing the baby out with the bathwater to make your point.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 7:23PM
Aren't you being a bit inconstant, within your own post? You seem to be critical about how he responded to her, but in the end you seem to agree with what he said. In a more general discusion, isn't modern psychiatry, as well as neurology and genetics, undermining the concept of free-will? I read somewhere that scientists were analyzing the DNA of serial killers in an attempt to identify why someone can be unabile to have empathy towards others. I have no answers here, but it does seem to be "a brace new world".
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 7:42PM
I've seen snippets when I'm channel surfing during commercials on better programming. I saw the one where Penny was crying because she had become convinced that she "raped" the virgin males and ruined their lives. That was when I had the epiphany that this show is a bogus pile of shit. I would also expect that the parts where Dr. Quack is doing the big lie are not filmed or at least edited out.
^ I don't see that. I was saying I didn't like that Drew said she did nothing wrong - I believe he told her that because she is female. If she went into detail about what she did, and she didn't in fact do anything wrong (i.e. it was consensual, if you believe consent is possible at that age), it wasn't shown. The way it was shown on the show, it seemed Jennie said she fucked a bunch of young guys (something she said implied they were younger than her) and then Drew is immediately telling her that she did nothing wrong. I had a problem with this - I think if it were a guy, he wouldn't have been so quick to say they did nothing wrong. Effectively, I'm saying she is constantly being made a victim, without really going into the complexities. But again, I can only reflect on what they showed - maybe Drew, behind the scenes, got into all the details, surmised that the sexual situations were not abusive, and then told her she did nothing wrong. Make sense?
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Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 9 2009 : 8:06PM
^I do think everyone should keep in mind that a lot is left on the "cutting room floor", so-to-speak. That session that you have mentioned, certainly went on a lot longer then the 1 minute (if that), that was shown.
Edited by - Clam Digger on 12/9/2009 8:09:07 PM
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Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
That is a shock. I thought the male virgins were younger than her. NOw I really don't grasp why she feels she was a violator. I also don't grasp why the female aide of Dr. Drew was infering her behavior was one of a sexual perpertrator.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 12:30AM
^Only a guess, but I think of it as the apple given by Eve to Adam, kind of thing. Eve gave up the apple and Adam lost his innocence. She might be mourning that she gave up the apple too quickly and too easily and as a result she coldly took their innocence. She has mentioned the incident on her blog, but there I did not sense that she was guilt ridden about it. But she did write that blog sometime after she left treatment. Edited by - Clam Digger on 12/10/2009 4:50:44 AM
Just as a side note: There has been a lot of criticism of the show and Dr. Drew. It is true that Dr. Drew comes off a little too smarmy, but no one seems to offer much criticism of Jennie, for being on such an "exploitative show". I find that interesting.
Click to expand
I remember the thread competition with Penny and Taryn. Yeah, it was good. I read some of the "My Hot Mess" blogs that she did before. I've also read her current blog a couple of times. On both ADT and her past and current blogs, she seems to be a cool person. I hope everything works out well for Jennie. You were saying how you're wondering why people are criticizing Dr. Drew, but not Jennie for being on an "exploitative show". Why do you think that might be true? Edited by - matchmaker on 12/10/2009 12:54:39 AM
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 12:58AM
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 1:06AM
matchmaker, She has clearly stated that, besides getting a payday, her original goal was to sabotage the show. All of the changed quickly. I don't anyone thinks she was guilty of anything by deflowering all of those young virginal boys. I was only trying to come up with a reason why she felt guilty in quite an emotional session with Dr. Drew and Jilly Beans, as she calls her therapist. You should give the show a try. Edited by - Clam Digger on 12/10/2009 1:08:31 AM
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 1:15AM
All that I will say is that truly enlightened criticism can only be achieved by watching the show that one is criticizing. You can now return to watching Archie Bunker reruns, grasshopper.
^I'll try to catch more of the shows. Edited to say: By the way, thanks for updating me on what has been going on the show, Clam Digger! Edited by - matchmaker on 12/10/2009 1:30:45 AM
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 1:31AM
One doesn't have to eat the whole apple to know that it is rotten. Oh and you should be ashamed of yourself for bringing the Emmy Award winning "All In The Family" into a thread about a train wreck.
Penny was great in her scenes. Hey, even though both of them have retired from porn, do you think it would've been cool to see a scene with Penny and Jewel DeNyle together?
It happens all the time, but there's a saying about being careful what you pretend to be. People pretend to be patients and actually turn into them. Mindy McCready also admits to going on the show just for the quick cash and wound up getting the help she needed, crediting the experience for saving her life.
So...they're talking about Tiger Woods on Larry King (), and whom do they call? Dr. Drew. So they have him on there trying to paint Tiger Woods as a "sex addict". How convenient for Dr. Drew's show. Is there any celebrity whose misfortune or shortcomings this guy won't wallow in? Ugh.
Penny Flame @ Adult Empire
Posted - Dec 2 2009 : 10:37PM
Yeah, it was good. 
I read some of the "My Hot Mess" blogs that she did before. I've also read her current blog a couple of times. On both ADT and her past and current blogs, she seems to be a cool person. I hope everything works out well for Jennie. 
), and whom do they call?