performers ARE employees (page 2)

Author	Post
Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 1:50PM Does this mean that a girl like, say, Cody Lane, who has worked for Brazzers, Naughty America, Bang Bus, Anabolic, Red Light, etc. is considered an employee of all those companies. In the eyes of the State of California she has about 24 full time jobs? [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 3:21PM Dean Wormer wrote: Who is Anita Cannibal? Click to expand Anita Cannibal is a performer/former performer who feels that other people should be responsible for what she does instead of herself. Click to expand She is actually a performer who believes that EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions, and that includes producers, directors, etc. If you are going to HIRE people, make profit off of their work, and offer jobs with extreme risk involved, then you must provide a remedy if one of those forseeable risks actually injures somebody. This is supposed to be a MULTIBILLION dollar industry. Do you feel that producers, directors,etc. bear no responsibility when they are the ones HIRING people to perform risky acts? Shouldnt the person making the profit be the person paying the bills. According to you dean, who should be responsible for worker(employee) safety, when said employees are just following the instructions of the employer? Those 'other people' should be held responsible for their actions. They are the ones who set the wheels in motion, and it is the people who are fighting these changes that are going to screw this industry, not the ones who want to finally try to make this insdustry somewhat 'legit'. THE FREE RIDE IS OVER,and as much as some old timers in this buissness want to keep the statu quo, it aint going to happen. These old timers just cant face the fact that the talent is getting a little(very little) wiser. A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR industry that relies on a non-profit CHARITY to do only remedial healthcare for its employees. WHat an effing joke. [Link]
julesjordanvideo JulesJordan.com Professional Perverts 1003 Posts 9/01	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 3:39PM So are performers out of work going to get unemployment? That would be interesting. Lookyhere, why dont you tell everyone who you are? You sound like a professional plaintiff or something. [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 4:16PM julesjordanvideo wrote: So are performers out of work going to get unemployment? That would be interesting. Lookyhere, why dont you tell everyone who you are? You sound like a professional plaintiff or something. Click to expand I dont see your name on your profile Another tactic typical of the (haha) ADULT industry. Why does it matter who I am? What should matter is what i'm saying. Discredit the speaker and you discredit what he is saying(FACISM). Why not just disuss the topic HONESTLY. Of course the truth is the one thing that the "ADULT" industry fears the most. And now youre talking about two seperat things, payment for services, and remediess for injury. The state of california MAY consider a person an IC for purposes relating to renumeration(getting paid) and and employee when it comes to helath and safety. YES, the state gets to have its cake and eat it too. The state recongnizes the problems with paying EMPLOYEES who only work for short periods, or on a daily basis. You may very well be able to continue to 1099 performers. SGV wrote in his post "Have you made significant investment in the location where the work takes place" This is a crucial matter when determining responsibiliby. If youre the one who is paying the location fee, the YOU are resposible for what happens there under your direction.If the location fee is paid out of the directors fee then it reverts to where the money "originated" AND just to be fair, I will print my full name here as soon as everybody else does. Does Julesjordan video provide workers comp coverage for its employees? If a girl gets a torn rectum on a jules jordan shoot, who pays the medical bills.(and dont say its never happened). I have a very strong feeling that neither of these questions will be answered even though they are very simple and straight forward. P.S. I'm not making this stuff up, its just the way it is(or is going to be). Those who adapt will survive, those who dont,wont. And i;ll say it again, those who try to fight for peerformer protection are NOT the ones who are going to screw this industry, its the ones who want to keep the statu quo that are going to "f" it up for everyone else. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/23/2008 4:29:47 PM [Link]

MikeSouth Deactivated User 511 Posts 11/02	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 4:28PM Ive always figured that this was one of those ticking time bombs in the industry and not just for porn but also strip clubs. In a self serving way I hope California does make porners comply with Cal-OSHA and thin the herd A LOT. It also makes my product MUCH more valuable. But in all honesty I have to stand by my Libertarian principles and sgree that this is wrong. Of course that doesn't change the facts and I think the legal beagle here pointed those out rather well. For too long the adult industry refused to check itself and control itself, now it will pay the price for that oversight. The industry is in a freefall now, adding these problems to the mix just makes matters worse. The days of c4rooked distributors and the whole multi-tiered marketing system of porn are drawing to a close, the internet will deliver the eulogy. [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 4:34PM MikeSouth wrote: Ive always figured that this was one of those ticking time bombs in the industry and not just for porn but also strip clubs. In a self serving way I hope California does make porners comply with Cal-OSHA and thin the herd A LOT. It also makes my product MUCH more valuable. But in all honesty I have to stand by my Libertarian principles and sgree that this is wrong. Of course that doesn't change the facts and I think the legal beagle here pointed those out rather well. For too long the adult industry refused to check itself and control itself, now it will pay the price for that oversight. The industry is in a freefall now, adding these problems to the mix just makes matters worse. The days of c4rooked distributors and the whole multi-tiered marketing system of porn are drawing to a close, the internet will deliver the eulogy. Click to expand I cant believ i'm saying this but here goes. MIKE, i agree wholeheartedly.(as much as i have disagrreed with things youve said in the past I will always defend your right to say what you think, unlike others in this biz who would rather silence, and blackball those who try to get the honest truth out there. Some people stand up for their rights, other hide behind those rights; AND again, I will print my full name here as soon as everyone else does(not stage names) MIKE, on page 2 of this thread i give a short description of the services provided by Talent Testing Servies. Care to comment? thanks for responding to this thread. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/23/2008 4:38:39 PM [Link]
MikeSouth Deactivated User 511 Posts 11/02	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 7:10PM As for Talent Testing service I think competition is always a good thing. Id hope that the phlebotomists they use dress and act professionally, that the clinic is clean and safe and that they have a doctor on staff...a real one with a real degree, and I would hope that their testing is more controlled and accurate than that of AIM I know too many people that AIM diagnosed with Hep-C for instance who never even had Hep-C. That said I'd like to see the industry re-examine the whole PCR-DNA nonsense...It was never considered a valid HIV screen and the so called window period is no different than the common day and much less pricey ELISA test, which, by the way IS the gold standard test for HIV. If you don't know what that means, look it up. And what AIM never told you (and never will) is that using the PCR-DNA test would allow an HIV positive person to work, assuming that person has been on the protease inhibitor drugs and other anti-viral cocktails. The truth about AIM is that it's in business for one purpose only and thats so Sharon has a job. Edited by - MikeSouth on 1/23/2008 7:12:06 PM [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 8:23PM MikeSouth wrote: And what AIM never told you (and never will) is that using the PCR-DNA test would allow an HIV positive person to work, assuming that person has been on the protease inhibitor drugs and other anti-viral cocktail Click to expand If this person is on the 'COCKTAIL" of HIV treatment and chooses to falsly portray himself as HIV- and knowingly show someone a test he knows is not accurate, isnt that person breaking several laws? [Link]
elgringoviejo58 Senior Member 1460 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 9:03PM If one presents documents from AIM or another testing service, is there some affirmative duty under CA criminal law for that person to make additional verbal disclosures not contained in the HIV-test medical documents, or is presentation of the requisite documentation sufficient? I am perplexed as to how CA civil, let alone criminal law, could impose an affirmative duty of additional disclosure upon a layperson to clarify the subject matter of medical documents prepared by medical professionals. [Link]
the unknown pervert Deactivated User I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 9:13PM lookyhere wrote: Why does it matter who I am? Click to expand You seem to think you know something about the legal system yet the concept of credibility is alien to you. Good luck in your career you will need all of it you can get. [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 11:34PM elgringoviejo58 wrote: If one presents documents from AIM or another testing service, is there some affirmative duty under CA criminal law for that person to make additional verbal disclosures not contained in the HIV-test medical documents, or is presentation of the requisite documentation sufficient? I am perplexed as to how CA civil, let alone criminal law, could impose an affirmative duty of additional disclosure upon a layperson to clarify the subject matter of medical documents prepared by medical professionals. Click to expand Prestnting the document itself is an " affirmative action",which contains information that is know to be false by the party presenting said document, thus perputrating a fraud upon the recipient of the document. I could go the local DMV with false documents and get what would otherwise appear to be a perfectly legal and correct document. It does not make it so. The person in this case knows that he is presenting a document that contains errors. Is there an affirmative duty in california to inform any potential partner of an HIV+ condition? I dont know. But i do know that it is illegal to " affirmatively lead someone to believe" you arent, when you indeed know that you are. [Link]
elgringoviejo58 Senior Member 1460 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 11:54PM Wouldn't a fact-finder first look at the medical documents prepared by the medical facility, and wouldn't it be at the very least difficult proving that a person knew that their HIV status was something other than that shown on the face of that document? It seems to me that it would be far easier to take steps to assure that the document itself was accurate. [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 12:54AM elgringoviejo58 wrote: Wouldn't a fact-finder first look at the medical documents prepared by the medical facility, and wouldn't it be at the very least difficult proving that a person knew that their HIV status was something other than that shown on the face of that document? It seems to me that it would be far easier to take steps to assure that the document itself was accurate. Click to expand The scenario Mike first suggested was if a person who was taking HIV medication, which could 'mask' his true HIV status from the pcr test, were to go through the screening system at AIM and then work on a porn set. The document itself for a pcr test says right on it "NOT DETECTED" it does not say "NEGATIVE". There is other wording on the document itslef that is basically a disclaimer. If the person is in treatment for HIV it would be pretty simply to porove he had hiv. Also, as of less than a year ago, ALL HIV+ reports are reported by name to local health departments. An AIM test also has a specific number on it that can be used to verify the accuracy of the document. One of the key sentences on the result itself states "This test does not preclude the presence of the HIV virus.' But to suggest that just because an HIV+ person were to obtain a "false negative" report is somehow absolved from fraud because of that document is absurd. Now if a person were to be truely unaware of their HIV+ status, and get an HIV test that shows negative, thats a completely different story.(darrren anyone) [Link]
elgringoviejo58 Senior Member 1460 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:06AM You have had the advantage of actually reading documents I have never seen. Under your factual scenario, would HIPAA provide any difficulties in actually obtaining the information that one would seek? Are there any HIV tests that do not have this masking problem? How does focusing on a fraud perpetrated by a HIV-positive person who may or may not have assets square with your over-arching desire to hold the deep pockets industry accountable for the health if its employees (and it seems clear based on postings by yourself, counselor Fatterosi and others that employees is the term to use). [Link]

lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:12AM the unknown pervert wrote: lookyhere wrote: Why does it matter who I am? Click to expand You seem to think you know something about the legal system yet the concept of credibility is alien to you. Good luck in your career you will need all of it you can get. Click to expand Like I said when you print your name i'll print mine. Does the meaning of what i say change when you know my name?no Does the accuracy of what i say change if you know my name? no Do i work in the adult buissness?no, not now, nor have i ever. Why are you anymore credible than me? You print your name and i'll print mine.... if credibility is an issue because of my anonimity, then the same must be said for you. But you suggested that, not me!!!!! AND as far as the good luck comment that was supposed th a jab at me, I am very comfortably retired at age 53, spend alot of time fishing and boating with my kids and grandkids, and have donated more time and money to HIV,Diabetes, and cancer charities over my life to make me feel comfaortable enough with myself. Funny that someone who calls themselves UNKNOWN PERVERT calls into question the credibility of anyone while hiding behind a false name. OF course you cant argue with what i say so you try personal attacks. Good try, better luck next time. You print yours and I'll print mine,,simple as that. Put up or shut up(just an expression, i urge you to voice your opinion no matter how i might disagree) [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:19AM elgringoviejo58 wrote: You have had the advantage of actually reading documents I have never seen. Under your factual scenario, would HIPAA provide any difficulties in actually obtaining the information that one would seek? Are there any HIV tests that do not have this masking problem? How does focusing on a fraud perpetrated by a HIV-positive person who may or may not have assets square with your over-arching desire to hold the deep pockets industry accountable for the health if its employees (and it seems clear based on postings by yourself, counselor Fatterosi and others that employees is the term to use). Click to expand AT AIM, you sighn a waiver that allows them(AIM) to notify others of your test results. Does that walk a fine HIPPA line, I think it does, is it a HIPPA violation? i dont know, but they have never been cited for it. THat is why AIM works, because the HIPPA codes do make it extremely,extremely!!!! difficult to otherwise asertain this information about a third party. And lastly, that is a very veryvery far fetched scenario were talking about here. p.s. The pockets are not nearyly as deep as the "adult' industry would lead you to believe. When i use the term MULTIBILLION, it is with a chuckle in my voice.(2-4, is not MULTI in my book) Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 1:24:33 AM [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:40AM lookyhere wrote: elgringoviejo58 wrote: You have had the advantage of actually reading documents I have never seen. Under your factual scenario, would HIPAA provide any difficulties in actually obtaining the information that one would seek? Are there any HIV tests that do not have this masking problem? How does focusing on a fraud perpetrated by a HIV-positive person who may or may not have assets square with your over-arching desire to hold the deep pockets industry accountable for the health if its employees (and it seems clear based on postings by yourself, counselor Fatterosi and others that employees is the term to use). Click to expand AT AIM, you sighn a waiver that allows them(AIM) to notify others of your test results. Does that walk a fine HIPPA line, I think it does, is it a HIPPA violation? i dont know, but they have never been cited for it. THat is why AIM works, because the HIPPA codes do make it extremely,extremely!!!! difficult to otherwise asertain this information about a third party. And lastly, that is a very veryvery far fetched scenario were talking about here. p.s. The pockets are not nearyly as deep as the "adult' industry would lead you to believe. When i use the term MULTIBILLION, it is with a chuckle in my voice.(2-4, is not MULTI in my book) Even if this was a 1 Billion dollar indsutry, that means the entire industry could pay for everysingle AIM test for a year if theY donated ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of that one billion.If you believe its a 14 billion dollar industry, well you do the math. (AIM is a non-profit charity that must file with proper govt. agencies how much they spend. This figure is based on a 2003 filing available to anyone(who knows where to look for it). An industry that is supposed to be larger than pro basebal, footbnall and basketball combined will not spend one tenth of one percent to provide remedial health coverage for its employees. Does this make ya wonder why nobody wants the status quo to change. Like Tim Connely of AVN magazine one said about the real day to day performers, and I quote...."BASICALLY THEY'RE JUST DAY LABORERS" Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 1:24:33 AM Click to expand [Link]
Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:50AM To Lookyhere: Do you have an answer to my previous question? I have reposted it below. Does this mean that a girl like, say, Cody Lane, who has worked for Brazzers, Naughty America, Bang Bus, Anabolic, Red Light, etc. is considered an employee of all those companies. In the eyes of the State of California she has about 24 full time jobs? Click to expand [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:05AM Dean Wormer wrote: To Lookyhere: Do you have an answer to my previous question? I have reposted it below. Does this mean that a girl like, say, Cody Lane, who has worked for Brazzers, Naughty America, Bang Bus, Anabolic, Red Light, etc. is considered an employee of all those companies. In the eyes of the State of California she has about 24 full time jobs? Click to expand Click to expand She is considered an emplyee at the time she provides(renders) her services for that individual company. When she completes her service her employmnet is terminated. You dont have to be Full time to be considered an employee, and your employment is not in perptuity. And again, you can be considered an IC when it comes to payment for services rendered, and at the same time be called am employee when it comes to health and safety. The state recognizes the difficuly in paying short term employees and thus may allow you to 1099 those employees. It seems like every solution just brings up another problem. My best advice to porn company owners is to get some real good legal advice on these issues and get it quick. You may also need to get an "INJURY AND ILLNESS PREVENTION PROGRAM" established for your company. You will need to have one in place when OSHA comes knocking. IF there is exposure to potentially harmful bodily fluids you must, according to Federal law have an IIPP in place. Does anyone find it ironic that the industry big wigs, willl have fundraising drives for FSC, and pay millions to defend their right to free speech, but donate NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to the charity that assists the very people who create the speech they are defending, while these people get herpes, gonn, chhlam, anal warts, hepatitis, staph infections, hpv, vaginosis, trichomonis,torn rectums and vaginas, drug abuse, mental instability,unintended pregnancies, just to name a few. If the industry big wigs were subjected to these things dont you think something would get done about it. But then again.."THEY'RE JUST DAY LABORERS" When it comes to this issue all of the sudden these same big wigs suddenly decide that free speech also gives you the right to be silent and say nothing. After all, the last thing they want is for the talent to be educated about this. The truth is their biggest fear. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 2:28:47 AM [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:16AM julesjordanvideo wrote: Lookyhere, why dont you tell everyone who you are? You sound like a professional plaintiff or something. Click to expand Why, no, it's . . . lookyhere wrote: Do i work in the adult buissness?no, not now, nor have i ever. ... AND as far as the good luck comment that was supposed th a jab at me, I am very comfortably retired at age 53, spend alot of time fishing and boating with my kids and grandkids, and have donated more time and money to HIV,Diabetes, and cancer charities over my life to make me feel comfaortable enough with myself. Click to expand . . . *Grampa Save-A-Ho, Crusading Buttinski Without Portfolio!. "Helping Those Who Don't Know They Want My Help, Since 2007."* [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:33AM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 2:43:24 AM [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:34AM lookyhere wrote: Harri Patel wrote: julesjordanvideo wrote: Lookyhere, why dont you tell everyone who you are? You sound like a professional plaintiff or something. Click to expand Why, no, it's . . . lookyhere wrote: Do i work in the adult buissness?no, not now, nor have i ever. ... AND as far as the good luck comment that was supposed th a jab at me, I am very comfortably retired at age 53, spend alot of time fishing and boating with my kids and grandkids, and have donated more time and money to HIV,Diabetes, and cancer charities over my life to make me feel comfaortable enough with myself. Click to expand . . . Grampa S Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:53:27 AM [Link]
conquistador Deactivated User Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:35AM [Link]
studioline Member 303 Posts 8/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:54AM We have come a long way in civilization and I still frequently feel that many people don't take the sex industry and sex workers seriously. Unfortunately there are still many people with bad attitudes amd dark ages mentalities even here in this forum. I encourage the sex industry and the sex workers to strive for modern positive regulations and more protection laws just like any other industry. And I strongly recommend people to start talking about sex workers with more respect. Whether porn performers would like to be employed at the production company or whether they would like to work freelance is totally up to them. I personally think that the more freelancing porn performers the better for the porn quality. Production companies with employed or under long term contract girls seem to repeat themselves too often thus killing the creativity and diversity of porn quality. In all cases, whether freelance, employed, or under long term contract, porn performers must have clear rights and clear accountability under the law. In my opinion, all sex industry must be legal and well regulated. Regulations and laws however, must stem from an ideology of respect, safety and the right for adults to decide over their sex lives and professional lives as long as they don't conflict with mutual respect and overall safety. ---- Edited by - studioline on 1/24/2008 3:05:01 AM [Link]

lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:04AM studioline wrote: And I strongly recommend people to start talking about sex workers with more respect. Click to expand Studioline, i think you are incorrect in your assumption that it is up to the individual to decide if they are an employee or an independatnt contractor. There are EDD guidlines that determine that, not individuals. But i do agree with the rest of your post. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:12:30 AM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:57:05 AM [Link]
Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:15AM ^^^ I must say you've got a pretty high opinion of yourself and the power that you wield. [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:22AM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:55:33 AM [Link]
conquistador Deactivated User Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:24AM ^^^^^^^ an idiot on a chat board Click to expand [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:34AM conquistador wrote: ^^^^^^^ an idiot on a chat board Click to expand Click to expand Thanks for the chuckle +1 to you. [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:54AM [/quote] [Link]
LubeNLuv Senior Member 1854 Posts 3/06	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 9:06AM rogrtipe wrote: If what you described actually become the law of the land, then porn as we know it, is dead. The biggest threat to porn has never been the religious right. The courts can at least keep them somewhat in check. This mess? Death by over-regulation. Rog Rog Reviews Click to expand Disagree. The biggest threat to porn is that they don't self-regulate because they are mostly selfish moneygrubbers who care nothing for their "industry" and only for their own personal bank accounts. They are not a group, but a federated model of individual businessmen and women who offer little long-term employment options for the "talent" they use to make their money. It's not an industry, it has no clout relative to the money it does make as genre of entertainment, and the vast majority of the players are just that...players. If porn wanted to keep from getting negative publicity, Max Hardcore, JM and Donkey Punch, etc. never would have made front-page news. [Link]
the unknown pervert Deactivated User I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 10:47AM lookyhere wrote: Why are you anymore credible than me? You print your name and i'll print mine.... if credibility is an issue because of my anonimity, then the same must be said for you. Click to expand I'm not the one claiming to know the facts, I'm not the one predicting legal precedents here, and I'm not the one playing internet lawyer. [Link]
pornlaw Member 578 Posts 10/05	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 11:29AM Does this mean that a girl like, say, Cody Lane, who has worked for Brazzers, Naughty America, Bang Bus, Anabolic, Red Light, etc. is considered an employee of all those companies. In the eyes of the State of California she has about 24 full time jobs? Click to expand Lookyhere already answered this one, but I will chime in as well. Yes, on the day of the shoot, she would be considered an employee for however long she was on set for. The concept of multiple employers is not that unusual in the real non-porno world. For example, a women works as a nanny/maid for different families on each day of the week. On Monday is at the Smith home cleaning and doing laundry, Tuesday at the Jones home watching their 2 yr old and making lunch, Wednesday at the Peterson house just cleaning and so on. She is an employee each day of the week for a different household (employer). If she falls down the stairs and hurts herself on Tuesday at the Jones house she could file a work comp claim vs. whomever is the work comp/home insurance carrier for the Jones. She would also get to claim loss of earnings for all of her jobs against the Jones insurance company in order to collect disability benefits. The Jones insurance carrier would also have to provide medical treatment for the woman and possibly vocational retraining and job placement if she could not return to her job as a nanny/maid. On another note - I do not think this signals the end of porn production in California. This state isn't a vast wasteland of business. California has, I think, the world's 3rd largest economy despite employer's having to contend with issues like workers' compensation. And honestly, what state can the industry move to without having to worry about prosecution. Hmmm Jail vs. some $ for insurance. I would rather pay some extra production costs. Remember, its legal here thanks to Freeman. Finally, one of the hallmarks of an industry's maturation is how well it treats its workers. Historically, once an industry makes a commitment to worker safety and health governmental regulation subsides. If this industry does not make a commitment to improving in this manner I can see other forces coming to bear on it. Here's an interesting read about the fight for workers' health and safety at the turn of the 20th century from the Department of Labor. Many of principles still apply today. Fight for Worker's Rights in the Industrial Era (1877-1900) Michael www.adultbizlaw.com [Link]
MikeSouth Deactivated User 511 Posts 11/02	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:34PM Getting back to the AIM/HIV thing remember AIM only does the PCR DNA test so as far as they are cioncerned as well as anyone else in porn this person is HIV negative. Now does that indicate fraud on behalf of the person who got the test knowing they were HIV+? Of course it does. But ask yourself this....Is this industry known for the integrity of the people in it? I rest may case. Personally I have long felt that AIM should be selling the orasure test for on the spot testing right before the scene....is it 100% accurate no, but it IS the GOLD standard test. [Link]

Clam Digger Deactivated User Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 5:20PM lookyhere; You certainly don't need me to defend you, but I just wanted to say, in between all the BS posted here that is clearly outside of what should be a calm discussion of the facts and the law, that I find your posts both knowledgeable and articulate. I appreciate your posts. [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 5:31PM Maybe this will just chase out the crappier porn companies anyway. Everyone knows there is the problem of oversaturation right now. [Link]
blowfish Member 874 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 6:15PM Maybe the day of the big studios is over. Small internet companies based nationwide is the way to go. California laws, sex industry related or not, are driving the most productive industries and entrepreneurs out of the state. If Cali really wants to reap the benefits of the billion dollar industry, they need to rethink the consequences of over legislation. Sounds cold but its reality. [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:17PM I find it hard to believe too many Cali politicans are concerned that they may drive the industry out. No matter how much money the industry generates (and I think the amount is often exaggerated) it would only be to a politican's advantage to be seen doing exactly that: look at Guiliani in New York. [Link]
LadyB Black and Blue, USA 161 Posts 2/05	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:18PM A quick check of the aforementioned and posted "check list" to determine if someone is an independent contractor (1099 status) is all that you need to answer the question concerning whether anyone outside of a handful of office clerks and warehouse personnel working in adult are in fact "employees".... You are not an "employee" if you do not work for a company full time, or under a lasting agreement that calls you an "employee". Does your "employer" withhold income taxes and social security from your pay check? If the answer is no, you are not an employee. If you have a Employer ID #, or consider yourself as a separate and independent business entity from another business that "employs you", then you are not an Employee, you are a vendor/independent contractor/freelancer. Most contract stars (and there aren't that many, especially not as companies divest their contract star system in favor of day players), are still considered 1099/Independent contractors and not employees under California Regs. Like any other Independent Contractor (as a freelancer who is a business owner, I fall into that category as well), we are all responsible for our own insurance coverage, whether it be professional insurance or health insurance or disability insurance. As a 1099 worker, we are charged Social Security within our Federal taxes, as you can't work as a 1099 contractor without claiming so, unless you fail to file altogether. That's what a "schedule C" and everything related to it is there for. First, I would suggest that you consider this well written piece delineating what constitutes an employee versus an independent contractor, why it can be in your favor to work as an independent contractor and how an "employer" might come to prefer an independent contractor: http://www.methvenlaw.com/Handout_for_Independent_Contractors_and_Consultants_In_California.html I just find it interesting how some people that make their money entirely from the adult industry love to go out of their way to try and find every possible argument to "make adult pay" for simply being ADULT entertainment. Ironically, the fact that running independent contractors is just as common in MAINSTREAM productions and many other business service situations never seems to come up... Why is a vaginal tear or STD so much more worthy of indicting a whole industry, than an actor in mainstream that is injured on set, or a contractor that loses his hand on the job work site? I don't see the entire mainstream industry being shut down because an actor died or was maimed, or construction all over CA being closed down because a contractor was hurt on the job. Interesting huh? Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:20PM LadyB, your comparison to mainstream Hollywood doesn't stand up, they have unions. [Link]
LadyB Black and Blue, USA 161 Posts 2/05	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:27PM Black Six, not everyone that works in mainstream is union. Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 8:12PM Hello LadyB(great name) Ive read the document you referneced and I would interpt everything i read there to confirm that performers are indeed employees. While performers may not fit into EVERY catagory listed to help you determine a persons work status, they most certainly do fall into enough of those catagories to be considered employees. Especially the catagories of 'working usnder supervision"(thats the director), and "who pays for the location where the work is done", and "who supplies the materials" to complete the project. Remember, you are always considered an employee first. It is the burden of the buissness to PROVE that the 'subcontracor' is actually an IC. Also remember, AN IC can file a civil suit against a company for injuries suffered at their locations.Workers comp protects the COMPANY much more than the individual. If any other industry had anywhere near the amount of workplace illness or injury as the 'ADULT' biz did,there would be regulaion up the ying yang.(ying yang is not a legal term). So why doesnt the govt do anything about it? SIMPLE; if they do regulate it then they have given it their tacit approval as legitamate work(SEX WORK). What alot of people dont realize is that this is the FIRST STEP to Making sex work of all kind legal. GEE WHIZ, MAYBE THIS GUY REALLY IS ON OUR SIDE. MAYBE HE DOES HAVE AN AGENDA AFTER ALL. MAYBE WE SHOULD PULL OUR HEADS OUT AND GET ON BOARD REAL QUICK OR GET LEFT BEHIND. This is exactly what so many here have been fighting for for decades, and now that the time is at hand the small percentage of the old guard are in fear of loosing their control. Hate to tell you this old fellas but the INTERNET has already replaced you. THANKS CLAM DIGGER,right back at ya. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 8:23:48 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 8:27:20 PM [Link]
Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 12:45AM [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 4:12PM Dean Wormer wrote: Click to expand Thats the most creative thing ive ever seen on this board +1 to you.(AND FUNNY TOO) But I do not think a union is necessary. What I think would work would be something like sancioning bodies like in boxing(WBC<IBF). The state of California needs to do nothing more than the state of NEVADA, and any industry old gaurd whho tries to tell you differnet is just plainly mistaken(or being dishonest). The soulutions are not nearly as difficult or as draconian as the INDUSTRY(haha) would like you to believe. Will it impact their profit,yes, and that is ALL they are concerned about.Point to one single industry where health and safety regulations decimated the industry, in fact, in the long run, they always improved those industries. In the state of porn right now the testing regime(though very limited) is a good staart, but what this industry does not do is PROVIDE ANY REMEDY AT ALL for workplace injury or illness. According to LA county Health Department in an almost two year period there were 976 reported STD"s in the adult biz. And thats just from AIM. Lets not forget that performers do go other pplaces during the month when they get that l "little itching" feeling down there,(west coast urgent), but keep right on working with their negative AIM test.(See Layla Jades article on AVN INSIDER about 2 years ago she discusses this exact matter). Anybody who proffesses to want sex work to be legal but opposes health and safety regulations is just not being honest. The VAST majority of those who oppose regulation claim to do it on the moral ground of privacy and non governmental interference, when actually they are just trying to protect their pocketbooks. Anohter factor is that ALOT of "buissness' people in porn couldnt run a successful lemonade stand on a street corner, let alone folow the regulations that everybody else in the U.S. has to follow. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 5:02:21 PM [Link]
the unknown pervert Deactivated User I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 5:38PM Oh brother, do you actually believe sanctioning bodies have cleaned up boxing? They sure helped this guy out a lot. The sanctioning bodies have been among the leading causes of corruption in the sport. There is practically nothing the bigshots in charge of the WBA, WBC, and IBF won't do for a big enough bribe. Just the fact that Don King hasn't had his ass thrown out of the sport yet tells me all I need to know about the effectiveness of sanctioning bodies in boxing. I would imagine the same result if they were applied to porn. [Link]
hanniballs_licktor Deactivated User A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti 46 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 5:52PM You would think that most porn companies have it already for their permanent employees, e.g. cameraman slipping dropping camera on hand etc. It would seem a straight change to their insurance to cover short term employees, they do have a responsibility to ensure a safe working environment. Actually thinking more this could open a can of worms, if an actor or actress was to get aids, will the company be responsible for not providing a safe working environment? [Link]
LadyB Black and Blue, USA 161 Posts 2/05	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 7:01PM There's a difference between self regulation and government deployed regulation. What doesn't seem to be addressed in half of the arguments made for adult workers/sex workers health and safety is that it's impossible to prove whether an STD or injury is solely job related. The adult industry certainly does police itself, and part of the reason why is to avoid governmental bureaucracies that would more like to put and end to all adult production and entertainment than to try and legislate "safe sex guidelines" and "workman's compensation" claims. Like I said...if someone is going to make their money off of adult, even if it's by practicing law with or without a license, then I'd think the last thing they would want to do is indict the entire adult industry with this type of bold faced criticism, that always comes off as bashing the very industry that pays their bills. I'm beginning to wonder if looky isn't really spelled with a "u" and an "e". LOL Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity [Link]
lookyhere Deactivated Again 59 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 7:36PM LadyB wrote The adult industry certainly does police itself..... Click to expand THe ONLY thing the industry does is recommend an HIV and GONN/CHLAM test every thirty days. The performers themselves pay for the test.(very few agents and companies pay for talent tests,) The "INDUSTRY'(who is this industry everyone talks about),does absolutely nothing more that that. There is NO INDUSTRYWIDE PROTOCOL regarding herpes, hpv, hepatitis(ABorC), or ANYTHING else. AND exactly who are the industry police? And what more do they "require" other than an HIV, GONN/CHLAM test every thiryt days. There is also no industrywide protocol regarding DRUG ABUSE. Is a person on drugs capable of giving the consent necessary to.........well thats another can of worms. PERV, i get your point about the boxing analogy. I was just trying to point out that i dont think a union or official guild is really possible because of the short term nature of most porn ' Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 7:39:05 PM [Link]
julesjordanvideo JulesJordan.com Professional Perverts 1003 Posts 9/01	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 8:09PM So, let me get this right lookyhere, you are not an insider but yet you know about adultdvdtalk, AIM, XBIZ, Brooke Ashley, Miss Arroyo, Jessica D, Anita Cannibal? So what is your agenda? Why do you care so much about OUR industry? Do you work for pornlaw? [Link]
elgringoviejo58 Senior Member 1460 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 8:22PM Aren't performers part of the "our" in "our" industry? [Link]

Author

Post

Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 1:50PM

Does this mean that a girl like, say, Cody Lane, who has worked for Brazzers, Naughty America, Bang Bus, Anabolic, Red Light, etc. is considered an employee of all those companies. In the eyes of the State of California she has about 24 full time jobs?

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 3:21PM

She is actually a performer who believes that EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions, and that includes producers, directors, etc. If you are going to HIRE people, make profit off of their work, and offer jobs with extreme risk involved, then you must provide a remedy if one of those forseeable risks actually injures somebody. This is supposed to be a MULTIBILLION dollar industry.
Do you feel that producers, directors,etc. bear no responsibility when they are the ones HIRING people to perform risky acts? Shouldnt the person making the profit be the person paying the bills.
According to you dean, who should be responsible for worker(employee) safety, when said employees are just following the instructions of the employer?
Those 'other people' should be held responsible for their actions. They are the ones who set the wheels in motion, and it is the people who are fighting these changes that are going to screw this industry, not the ones who want to finally try to make this insdustry somewhat 'legit'.
THE FREE RIDE IS OVER,and as much as some old timers in this buissness want to keep the statu quo, it aint going to happen. These old timers just cant face the fact that the talent is getting a little(very little) wiser.
A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR industry that relies on a non-profit CHARITY to do only remedial healthcare for its employees. WHat an effing joke.

[Link]

julesjordanvideo
JulesJordan.com

Professional Perverts
1003 Posts
9/01

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 3:39PM

So are performers out of work going to get unemployment? That would be interesting. Lookyhere, why dont you tell everyone who you are? You sound like a professional plaintiff or something.

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 4:16PM

I dont see your name on your profile
Another tactic typical of the (haha) ADULT industry. Why does it matter who I am? What should matter is what i'm saying. Discredit the speaker and you discredit what he is saying(FACISM). Why not just disuss the topic HONESTLY. Of course the truth is the one thing that the "ADULT" industry fears the most.
And now youre talking about two seperat things, payment for services, and remediess for injury. The state of california MAY consider a person an IC for purposes relating to renumeration(getting paid) and and employee when it comes to helath and safety. YES, the state gets to have its cake and eat it too. The state recongnizes the problems with paying EMPLOYEES who only work for short periods, or on a daily basis. You may very well be able to continue to 1099 performers.
SGV wrote in his post "Have you made significant investment in the location where the work takes place"
This is a crucial matter when determining responsibiliby. If youre the one who is paying the location fee, the YOU are resposible for what happens there under your direction.If the location fee is paid out of the directors fee then it reverts to where the money "originated"
AND just to be fair, I will print my full name here as soon as everybody else does.
Does Julesjordan video provide workers comp coverage for its employees? If a girl gets a torn rectum on a jules jordan shoot, who pays the medical bills.(and dont say its never happened). I have a very strong feeling that neither of these questions will be answered even though they are very simple and straight forward.
P.S. I'm not making this stuff up, its just the way it is(or is going to be). Those who adapt will survive, those who dont,wont. And i;ll say it again, those who try to fight for peerformer protection are NOT the ones who are going to screw this industry, its the ones who want to keep the statu quo that are going to "f" it up for everyone else.
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/23/2008 4:29:47 PM

[Link]

MikeSouth
Deactivated User

511 Posts
11/02

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 4:28PM

Ive always figured that this was one of those ticking time bombs in the industry and not just for porn but also strip clubs.
In a self serving way I hope California does make porners comply with Cal-OSHA and thin the herd A LOT. It also makes my product MUCH more valuable.
But in all honesty I have to stand by my Libertarian principles and sgree that this is wrong. Of course that doesn't change the facts and I think the legal beagle here pointed those out rather well.
For too long the adult industry refused to check itself and control itself, now it will pay the price for that oversight. The industry is in a freefall now, adding these problems to the mix just makes matters worse. The days of c4rooked distributors and the whole multi-tiered marketing system of porn are drawing to a close, the internet will deliver the eulogy.

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 4:34PM

MikeSouth wrote:
Ive always figured that this was one of those ticking time bombs in the industry and not just for porn but also strip clubs.
In a self serving way I hope California does make porners comply with Cal-OSHA and thin the herd A LOT. It also makes my product MUCH more valuable.
But in all honesty I have to stand by my Libertarian principles and sgree that this is wrong. Of course that doesn't change the facts and I think the legal beagle here pointed those out rather well.
For too long the adult industry refused to check itself and control itself, now it will pay the price for that oversight. The industry is in a freefall now, adding these problems to the mix just makes matters worse. The days of c4rooked distributors and the whole multi-tiered marketing system of porn are drawing to a close, the internet will deliver the eulogy.
Click to expand

I cant believ i'm saying this but here goes. MIKE, i agree wholeheartedly.(as much as i have disagrreed with things youve said in the past I will always defend your right to say what you think, unlike others in this biz who would rather silence, and blackball those who try to get the honest truth out there.
Some people stand up for their rights, other hide behind those rights; AND again, I will print my full name here as soon as everyone else does(not stage names)
MIKE, on page 2 of this thread i give a short description of the services provided by Talent Testing Servies. Care to comment? thanks for responding to this thread.
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/23/2008 4:38:39 PM

[Link]

MikeSouth
Deactivated User

511 Posts
11/02

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 7:10PM

As for Talent Testing service I think competition is always a good thing.
Id hope that the phlebotomists they use dress and act professionally, that the clinic is clean and safe and that they have a doctor on staff...a real one with a real degree, and I would hope that their testing is more controlled and accurate than that of AIM I know too many people that AIM diagnosed with Hep-C for instance who never even had Hep-C.
That said I'd like to see the industry re-examine the whole PCR-DNA nonsense...It was never considered a valid HIV screen and the so called window period is no different than the common day and much less pricey ELISA test, which, by the way IS the gold standard test for HIV. If you don't know what that means, look it up.
And what AIM never told you (and never will) is that using the PCR-DNA test would allow an HIV positive person to work, assuming that person has been on the protease inhibitor drugs and other anti-viral cocktails.
The truth about AIM is that it's in business for one purpose only and thats so Sharon has a job.

Edited by - MikeSouth on 1/23/2008 7:12:06 PM

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 8:23PM

If this person is on the 'COCKTAIL" of HIV treatment and chooses to falsly portray himself as HIV- and knowingly show someone a test he knows is not accurate, isnt that person breaking several laws?

[Link]

elgringoviejo58
Senior Member

1460 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 9:03PM

If one presents documents from AIM or another testing service, is there some affirmative duty under CA criminal law for that person to make additional verbal disclosures not contained in the HIV-test medical documents, or is presentation of the requisite documentation sufficient? I am perplexed as to how CA civil, let alone criminal law, could impose an affirmative duty of additional disclosure upon a layperson to clarify the subject matter of medical documents prepared by medical professionals.

[Link]

the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
3243 Posts
5/06

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 9:13PM

You seem to think you know something about the legal system yet the concept of credibility is alien to you. Good luck in your career you will need all of it you can get.

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 11:34PM

Prestnting the document itself is an " affirmative action",which contains information that is know to be false by the party presenting said document, thus perputrating a fraud upon the recipient of the document.
I could go the local DMV with false documents and get what would otherwise appear to be a perfectly legal and correct document. It does not make it so. The person in this case knows that he is presenting a document that contains errors.
Is there an affirmative duty in california to inform any potential partner of an HIV+ condition? I dont know. But i do know that it is illegal to " affirmatively lead someone to believe" you arent, when you indeed know that you are.

[Link]

elgringoviejo58
Senior Member

1460 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 11:54PM

Wouldn't a fact-finder first look at the medical documents prepared by the medical facility, and wouldn't it be at the very least difficult proving that a person knew that their HIV status was something other than that shown on the face of that document? It seems to me that it would be far easier to take steps to assure that the document itself was accurate.

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 12:54AM

The scenario Mike first suggested was if a person who was taking HIV medication, which could 'mask' his true HIV status from the pcr test, were to go through the screening system at AIM and then work on a porn set. The document itself for a pcr test says right on it "NOT DETECTED" it does not say "NEGATIVE". There is other wording on the document itslef that is basically a disclaimer. If the person is in treatment for HIV it would be pretty simply to porove he had hiv. Also, as of less than a year ago, ALL HIV+ reports are reported by name to local health departments. An AIM test also has a specific number on it that can be used to verify the accuracy of the document.
One of the key sentences on the result itself states "This test does not preclude the presence of the HIV virus.'
But to suggest that just because an HIV+ person were to obtain a "false negative" report is somehow absolved from fraud because of that document is absurd.
Now if a person were to be truely unaware of their HIV+ status, and get an HIV test that shows negative, thats a completely different story.(darrren anyone)

[Link]

elgringoviejo58
Senior Member

1460 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:06AM

You have had the advantage of actually reading documents I have never seen. Under your factual scenario, would HIPAA provide any difficulties in actually obtaining the information that one would seek? Are there any HIV tests that do not have this masking problem? How does focusing on a fraud perpetrated by a HIV-positive person who may or may not have assets square with your over-arching desire to hold the deep pockets industry accountable for the health if its employees (and it seems clear based on postings by yourself, counselor Fatterosi and others that employees is the term to use).

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:12AM

Like I said when you print your name i'll print mine.
Does the meaning of what i say change when you know my name?no Does the accuracy of what i say change if you know my name? no
Do i work in the adult buissness?no, not now, nor have i ever.
Why are you anymore credible than me?
You print your name and i'll print mine.... if credibility is an issue because of my anonimity, then the same must be said for you. But you suggested that, not me!!!!!
AND as far as the good luck comment that was supposed th a jab at me, I am very comfortably retired at age 53, spend alot of time fishing and boating with my kids and grandkids, and have donated more time and money to HIV,Diabetes, and cancer charities over my life to make me feel comfaortable enough with myself.
Funny that someone who calls themselves UNKNOWN PERVERT calls into question the credibility of anyone while hiding behind a false name. OF course you cant argue with what i say so you try personal attacks. Good try, better luck next time.
You print yours and I'll print mine,,simple as that. Put up or shut up(just an expression, i urge you to voice your opinion no matter how i might disagree)

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:19AM

AT AIM, you sighn a waiver that allows them(AIM) to notify others of your test results. Does that walk a fine HIPPA line, I think it does, is it a HIPPA violation? i dont know, but they have never been cited for it. THat is why AIM works, because the HIPPA codes do make it extremely,extremely!!!! difficult to otherwise asertain this information about a third party.
And lastly, that is a very veryvery far fetched scenario were talking about here.
p.s. The pockets are not nearyly as deep as the "adult' industry would lead you to believe. When i use the term MULTIBILLION, it is with a chuckle in my voice.(2-4, is not MULTI in my book)
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 1:24:33 AM

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:40AM

lookyhere wrote:
elgringoviejo58 wrote:
You have had the advantage of actually reading documents I have never seen. Under your factual scenario, would HIPAA provide any difficulties in actually obtaining the information that one would seek? Are there any HIV tests that do not have this masking problem? How does focusing on a fraud perpetrated by a HIV-positive person who may or may not have assets square with your over-arching desire to hold the deep pockets industry accountable for the health if its employees (and it seems clear based on postings by yourself, counselor Fatterosi and others that employees is the term to use).
Click to expand
AT AIM, you sighn a waiver that allows them(AIM) to notify others of your test results. Does that walk a fine HIPPA line, I think it does, is it a HIPPA violation? i dont know, but they have never been cited for it. THat is why AIM works, because the HIPPA codes do make it extremely,extremely!!!! difficult to otherwise asertain this information about a third party.
And lastly, that is a very veryvery far fetched scenario were talking about here.
p.s. The pockets are not nearyly as deep as the "adult' industry would lead you to believe. When i use the term MULTIBILLION, it is with a chuckle in my voice.(2-4, is not MULTI in my book)
Even if this was a 1 Billion dollar indsutry, that means the entire industry could pay for everysingle AIM test for a year if theY donated ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of that one billion.If you believe its a 14 billion dollar industry, well you do the math. (AIM is a non-profit charity that must file with proper govt. agencies how much they spend. This figure is based on a 2003 filing available to anyone(who knows where to look for it).
An industry that is supposed to be larger than pro basebal, footbnall and basketball combined will not spend one tenth of one percent to provide remedial health coverage for its employees. Does this make ya wonder why nobody wants the status quo to change. Like Tim Connely of AVN magazine one said about the real day to day performers, and I quote...."BASICALLY THEY'RE JUST DAY LABORERS"
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 1:24:33 AM
Click to expand

[Link]

Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 1:50AM

To Lookyhere: Do you have an answer to my previous question? I have reposted it below.

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:05AM

She is considered an emplyee at the time she provides(renders) her services for that individual company. When she completes her service her employmnet is terminated. You dont have to be Full time to be considered an employee, and your employment is not in perptuity. And again, you can be considered an IC when it comes to payment for services rendered, and at the same time be called am employee when it comes to health and safety. The state recognizes the difficuly in paying short term employees and thus may allow you to 1099 those employees.
It seems like every solution just brings up another problem. My best advice to porn company owners is to get some real good legal advice on these issues and get it quick. You may also need to get an "INJURY AND ILLNESS PREVENTION PROGRAM" established for your company. You will need to have one in place when OSHA comes knocking. IF there is exposure to potentially harmful bodily fluids you must, according to Federal law have an IIPP in place.

Does anyone find it ironic that the industry big wigs, willl have fundraising drives for FSC, and pay millions to defend their right to free speech, but donate NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to the charity that assists the very people who create the speech they are defending, while these people get herpes, gonn, chhlam, anal warts, hepatitis, staph infections, hpv, vaginosis, trichomonis,torn rectums and vaginas, drug abuse, mental instability,unintended pregnancies, just to name a few. If the industry big wigs were subjected to these things dont you think something would get done about it. But then again.."THEY'RE JUST DAY LABORERS"
When it comes to this issue all of the sudden these same big wigs suddenly decide that free speech also gives you the right to be silent and say nothing. After all, the last thing they want is for the talent to be educated about this. The truth is their biggest fear.
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 2:28:47 AM

[Link]

Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:16AM

Why, no, it's . . .

. . . Grampa Save-A-Ho, Crusading Buttinski Without Portfolio!. "Helping Those Who Don't Know They Want My Help, Since 2007."

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:33AM

Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 2:43:24 AM

[Link]

lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:34AM

conquistador
Deactivated User

Hellhamster.
2947 Posts
10/03

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:35AM

[Link]

studioline
Member

303 Posts
8/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:54AM

We have come a long way in civilization and I still frequently feel that many people don't take the sex industry and sex workers seriously. Unfortunately there are still many people with bad attitudes amd dark ages mentalities even here in this forum.
I encourage the sex industry and the sex workers to strive for modern positive regulations and more protection laws just like any other industry. And I strongly recommend people to start talking about sex workers with more respect.
Whether porn performers would like to be employed at the production company or whether they would like to work freelance is totally up to them. I personally think that the more freelancing porn performers the better for the porn quality. Production companies with employed or under long term contract girls seem to repeat themselves too often thus killing the creativity and diversity of porn quality. In all cases, whether freelance, employed, or under long term contract, porn performers must have clear rights and clear accountability under the law.
In my opinion, all sex industry must be legal and well regulated. Regulations and laws however, must stem from an ideology of respect, safety and the right for adults to decide over their sex lives and professional lives as long as they don't conflict with mutual respect and overall safety.
----

Edited by - studioline on 1/24/2008 3:05:01 AM

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:04AM

Studioline, i think you are incorrect in your assumption that it is up to the individual to decide if they are an employee or an independatnt contractor. There are EDD guidlines that determine that, not individuals. But i do agree with the rest of your post.
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:12:30 AM
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:57:05 AM

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Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:15AM

^^^
I must say you've got a pretty high opinion of yourself and the power that you wield.

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:22AM

Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 3:55:33 AM

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conquistador
Deactivated User

Hellhamster.
2947 Posts
10/03

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:24AM

^^^^^^^

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:34AM

Thanks for the chuckle +1 to you.

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 3:54AM

[/quote]

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LubeNLuv
Senior Member

1854 Posts
3/06

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 9:06AM

Disagree.
The biggest threat to porn is that they don't self-regulate because they are mostly selfish moneygrubbers who care nothing for their "industry" and only for their own personal bank accounts. They are not a group, but a federated model of individual businessmen and women who offer little long-term employment options for the "talent" they use to make their money. It's not an industry, it has no clout relative to the money it does make as genre of entertainment, and the vast majority of the players are just that...players.
If porn wanted to keep from getting negative publicity, Max Hardcore, JM and Donkey Punch, etc. never would have made front-page news.

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the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
3243 Posts
5/06

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 10:47AM

pornlaw
Member

578 Posts
10/05

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 11:29AM

Lookyhere already answered this one, but I will chime in as well. Yes, on the day of the shoot, she would be considered an employee for however long she was on set for.
The concept of multiple employers is not that unusual in the real non-porno world.
For example, a women works as a nanny/maid for different families on each day of the week. On Monday is at the Smith home cleaning and doing laundry, Tuesday at the Jones home watching their 2 yr old and making lunch, Wednesday at the Peterson house just cleaning and so on.
She is an employee each day of the week for a different household (employer). If she falls down the stairs and hurts herself on Tuesday at the Jones house she could file a work comp claim vs. whomever is the work comp/home insurance carrier for the Jones.
She would also get to claim loss of earnings for all of her jobs against the Jones insurance company in order to collect disability benefits. The Jones insurance carrier would also have to provide medical treatment for the woman and possibly vocational retraining and job placement if she could not return to her job as a nanny/maid.
On another note - I do not think this signals the end of porn production in California. This state isn't a vast wasteland of business. California has, I think, the world's 3rd largest economy despite employer's having to contend with issues like workers' compensation. And honestly, what state can the industry move to without having to worry about prosecution. Hmmm Jail vs. some $ for insurance. I would rather pay some extra production costs. Remember, its legal here thanks to Freeman.
Finally, one of the hallmarks of an industry's maturation is how well it treats its workers. Historically, once an industry makes a commitment to worker safety and health governmental regulation subsides. If this industry does not make a commitment to improving in this manner I can see other forces coming to bear on it.
Here's an interesting read about the fight for workers' health and safety at the turn of the 20th century from the Department of Labor. Many of principles still apply today.
Fight for Worker's Rights in the Industrial Era (1877-1900)
Michael
www.adultbizlaw.com

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MikeSouth
Deactivated User

511 Posts
11/02

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 2:34PM

Getting back to the AIM/HIV thing remember AIM only does the PCR DNA test so as far as they are cioncerned as well as anyone else in porn this person is HIV negative.
Now does that indicate fraud on behalf of the person who got the test knowing they were HIV+? Of course it does.
But ask yourself this....Is this industry known for the integrity of the people in it?
I rest may case.
Personally I have long felt that AIM should be selling the orasure test for on the spot testing right before the scene....is it 100% accurate no, but it IS the GOLD standard test.

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Clam Digger
Deactivated User

Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good.
2268 Posts
1/05

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 5:20PM

lookyhere;
You certainly don't need me to defend you, but I just wanted to say, in between all the BS posted here that is clearly outside of what should be a calm discussion of the facts and the law, that I find your posts both knowledgeable and articulate.
I appreciate your posts.

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BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 5:31PM

Maybe this will just chase out the crappier porn companies anyway. Everyone knows there is the problem of oversaturation right now.

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blowfish
Member

874 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 6:15PM

Maybe the day of the big studios is over. Small internet companies based nationwide is the way to go. California laws, sex industry related or not, are driving the most productive industries and entrepreneurs out of the state. If Cali really wants to reap the benefits of the billion dollar industry, they need to rethink the consequences of over legislation. Sounds cold but its reality.

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BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:17PM

I find it hard to believe too many Cali politicans are concerned that they may drive the industry out. No matter how much money the industry generates (and I think the amount is often exaggerated) it would only be to a politican's advantage to be seen doing exactly that: look at Guiliani in New York.

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LadyB
Black and Blue, USA

161 Posts
2/05

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:18PM

A quick check of the aforementioned and posted "check list" to determine if someone is an independent contractor (1099 status) is all that you need to answer the question concerning whether anyone outside of a handful of office clerks and warehouse personnel working in adult are in fact "employees"....
You are not an "employee" if you do not work for a company full time, or under a lasting agreement that calls you an "employee". Does your "employer" withhold income taxes and social security from your pay check? If the answer is no, you are not an employee. If you have a Employer ID #, or consider yourself as a separate and independent business entity from another business that "employs you", then you are not an Employee, you are a vendor/independent contractor/freelancer.
Most contract stars (and there aren't that many, especially not as companies divest their contract star system in favor of day players), are still considered 1099/Independent contractors and not employees under California Regs.
Like any other Independent Contractor (as a freelancer who is a business owner, I fall into that category as well), we are all responsible for our own insurance coverage, whether it be professional insurance or health insurance or disability insurance. As a 1099 worker, we are charged Social Security within our Federal taxes, as you can't work as a 1099 contractor without claiming so, unless you fail to file altogether. That's what a "schedule C" and everything related to it is there for.
First, I would suggest that you consider this well written piece delineating what constitutes an employee versus an independent contractor, why it can be in your favor to work as an independent contractor and how an "employer" might come to prefer an independent contractor:
http://www.methvenlaw.com/Handout_for_Independent_Contractors_and_Consultants_In_California.html
I just find it interesting how some people that make their money entirely from the adult industry love to go out of their way to try and find every possible argument to "make adult pay" for simply being ADULT entertainment. Ironically, the fact that running independent contractors is just as common in MAINSTREAM productions and many other business service situations never seems to come up... Why is a vaginal tear or STD so much more worthy of indicting a whole industry, than an actor in mainstream that is injured on set, or a contractor that loses his hand on the job work site? I don't see the entire mainstream industry being shut down because an actor died or was maimed, or construction all over CA being closed down because a contractor was hurt on the job. Interesting huh?
Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity

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BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:20PM

LadyB, your comparison to mainstream Hollywood doesn't stand up, they have unions.

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LadyB
Black and Blue, USA

161 Posts
2/05

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 7:27PM

Black Six, not everyone that works in mainstream is union.
Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 24 2008 : 8:12PM

Hello LadyB(great name)
Ive read the document you referneced and I would interpt everything i read there to confirm that performers are indeed employees. While performers may not fit into EVERY catagory listed to help you determine a persons work status, they most certainly do fall into enough of those catagories to be considered employees. Especially the catagories of 'working usnder supervision"(thats the director), and "who pays for the location where the work is done", and "who supplies the materials" to complete the project.
Remember, you are always considered an employee first. It is the burden of the buissness to PROVE that the 'subcontracor' is actually an IC.
Also remember, AN IC can file a civil suit against a company for injuries suffered at their locations.Workers comp protects the COMPANY much more than the individual.
If any other industry had anywhere near the amount of workplace illness or injury as the 'ADULT' biz did,there would be regulaion up the ying yang.(ying yang is not a legal term). So why doesnt the govt do anything about it? SIMPLE; if they do regulate it then they have given it their tacit approval as legitamate work(SEX WORK).
What alot of people dont realize is that this is the FIRST STEP to Making sex work of all kind legal.
GEE WHIZ, MAYBE THIS GUY REALLY IS ON OUR SIDE. MAYBE HE DOES HAVE AN AGENDA AFTER ALL. MAYBE WE SHOULD PULL OUR HEADS OUT AND GET ON BOARD REAL QUICK OR GET LEFT BEHIND.
This is exactly what so many here have been fighting for for decades, and now that the time is at hand the small percentage of the old guard are in fear of loosing their control. Hate to tell you this old fellas but the INTERNET has already replaced you.
THANKS CLAM DIGGER,right back at ya.
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 8:23:48 PM
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/24/2008 8:27:20 PM

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Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 12:45AM

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 4:12PM

Thats the most creative thing ive ever seen on this board +1 to you.(AND FUNNY TOO)
But I do not think a union is necessary. What I think would work would be something like sancioning bodies like in boxing(WBC<IBF).
The state of California needs to do nothing more than the state of NEVADA, and any industry old gaurd whho tries to tell you differnet is just plainly mistaken(or being dishonest). The soulutions are not nearly as difficult or as draconian as the INDUSTRY(haha) would like you to believe. Will it impact their profit,yes, and that is ALL they are concerned about.Point to one single industry where health and safety regulations decimated the industry, in fact, in the long run, they always improved those industries.
In the state of porn right now the testing regime(though very limited) is a good staart, but what this industry does not do is PROVIDE ANY REMEDY AT ALL for workplace injury or illness. According to LA county Health Department in an almost two year period there were 976 reported STD"s in the adult biz. And thats just from AIM. Lets not forget that performers do go other pplaces during the month when they get that l
"little itching" feeling down there,(west coast urgent), but keep right on working with their negative AIM test.(See Layla Jades article on AVN INSIDER about 2 years ago she discusses this exact matter).
Anybody who proffesses to want sex work to be legal but opposes health and safety regulations is just not being honest. The VAST majority of those who oppose regulation claim to do it on the moral ground of privacy and non governmental interference, when actually they are just trying to protect their pocketbooks. Anohter factor is that ALOT of "buissness' people in porn couldnt run a successful lemonade stand on a street corner, let alone folow the regulations that everybody else in the U.S. has to follow.

Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 5:02:21 PM

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the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
3243 Posts
5/06

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 5:38PM

Oh brother, do you actually believe sanctioning bodies have cleaned up boxing?

They sure helped this guy out a lot. The sanctioning bodies have been among the leading causes of corruption in the sport. There is practically nothing the bigshots in charge of the WBA, WBC, and IBF won't do for a big enough bribe. Just the fact that Don King hasn't had his ass thrown out of the sport yet tells me all I need to know about the effectiveness of sanctioning bodies in boxing. I would imagine the same result if they were applied to porn.

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hanniballs_licktor
Deactivated User

A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti
46 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 5:52PM

You would think that most porn companies have it already for their permanent employees, e.g. cameraman slipping dropping camera on hand etc. It would seem a straight change to their insurance to cover short term employees, they do have a responsibility to ensure a safe working environment.
Actually thinking more this could open a can of worms, if an actor or actress was to get aids, will the company be responsible for not providing a safe working environment?

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LadyB
Black and Blue, USA

161 Posts
2/05

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 7:01PM

There's a difference between self regulation and government deployed regulation. What doesn't seem to be addressed in half of the arguments made for adult workers/sex workers health and safety is that it's impossible to prove whether an STD or injury is solely job related.
The adult industry certainly does police itself, and part of the reason why is to avoid governmental bureaucracies that would more like to put and end to all adult production and entertainment than to try and legislate "safe sex guidelines" and "workman's compensation" claims.
Like I said...if someone is going to make their money off of adult, even if it's by practicing law with or without a license, then I'd think the last thing they would want to do is indict the entire adult industry with this type of bold faced criticism, that always comes off as bashing the very industry that pays their bills.
I'm beginning to wonder if looky isn't really spelled with a "u" and an "e". LOL
Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity

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lookyhere
Deactivated Again

59 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 7:36PM

THe ONLY thing the industry does is recommend an HIV and GONN/CHLAM test every thirty days. The performers themselves pay for the test.(very few agents and companies pay for talent tests,) The "INDUSTRY'(who is this industry everyone talks about),does absolutely nothing more that that. There is NO INDUSTRYWIDE PROTOCOL regarding herpes, hpv, hepatitis(ABorC), or ANYTHING else.
AND exactly who are the industry police? And what more do they "require" other than an HIV, GONN/CHLAM test every thiryt days.
There is also no industrywide protocol regarding DRUG ABUSE. Is a person on drugs capable of giving the consent necessary to.........well thats another can of worms.
PERV, i get your point about the boxing analogy. I was just trying to point out that i dont think a union or official guild is really possible because of the short term nature of most porn '
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 7:39:05 PM

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julesjordanvideo
JulesJordan.com

Professional Perverts
1003 Posts
9/01

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 8:09PM

So, let me get this right lookyhere, you are not an insider but yet you know about adultdvdtalk, AIM, XBIZ, Brooke Ashley, Miss Arroyo, Jessica D, Anita Cannibal? So what is your agenda? Why do you care so much about OUR industry? Do you work for pornlaw?

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elgringoviejo58
Senior Member

1460 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 8:22PM

Aren't performers part of the "our" in "our" industry?

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