O.K. one question at atime 1.TRUE...and i know alot more 2.MY agenda is to make ALL sex work legal(prostitution,strip clubl etc.) 3. Because YOUR industry is the biggest roadblock there is to making all sex work legal. 4. I do not work for pornlaw.(though I do respect his backround with this industry and I do like that he seems to pretty much AGREE(for the most part) with what I'm sayin. ITS NOT MY FAULT THAT THE THINGS I WRITE ARE TRUE. Now two questions for you 1. Is there anything I've written that you believe is not accurate/true? 2. What did the YOUR INDUSTRY do for Miss arroyo, Jessica D> lara ROxx,etcetc etc. when they got HIV? Sometimes i state my oipinions as if they were fact....I will try to do better in the future to list opinions as opinios and facts as facts. I will understand if you leave question #2 blank because, well, a big blank is what YOUR industry did for them.(or is that wrong?) p.s. YOUR industry died in APRIL 2004. That is when these wheels were set in motion, and instead of getting on board you(THE OLD GUARD) tried to derail the train. Well, the train is right on track and the slow wheels of the govt. are now going to STEP IN because YOUR INDUSTRY didnt STEP UP. By old guard, i mean those who want to keep the status quo. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 8:56:45 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 9:01:43 PM
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 8:42PM
+1 couldnt have said it better myself in a half page rant. Thanks for saving me the time. Did you ever notice that not a day goes by where you dont here the 2257 issue,(this affects producer,directors,distribiutors,AND the real money makers) but healthcare(i only hear silence.) Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 8:58:21 PM
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 8:49PM
This industry doesnt pay my bills. What you call 'bold face criticism" i call my opinion about the TRUTH of the state of porn today. I can understand how a PR person for a porn company doesnt like someone like me telling people how it really is on a day to day basis for the vast majority of porn performers(not all) And the cries of 'put an end to all porn production" PLEASE, give me a break. AND the LUKE thing,,,thats good too, but nope. Luke doesnt know 1/100th of what I know.
And Luke knows the difference between "here" and "hear". In contrast, lookyhere has incorrectly used the former in place of the latter in 3 separate posts, which is clearly more than typos.
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 9:15PM
Yes, i think faster than I cany type and i do make alot of spelling and puncuation erors. I guess thats worth pointing out when you cant disagree with the substane of whats written. And id do know the differne betwwen, hear and here,,,there, their and they're,,,,to ,too, and two and i even know the differnce between,moron,imbecile and idiot. I also know the differene betwen INDEPENDANT CONTRACTOR and EMPLOYEE. Anyone care to asnwer the questions i posed, or are you to busy looking for misspelled words? AH, SILENCE IS GOLDEN. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/25/2008 9:25:36 PM
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Porn Scout Deactivated User
3735 Posts 10/02
Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 9:58PM
You spelled Independent wrong but you got Contractor and Employee right.
With all due respect, you know the difference as YOU see it. There are many of us who disagree and who believe that if anyone challenges the new court rulings things will balance out. How can you actually argue that a performer who shows up on a set for three hours, shoots a scene and is then on their merry way is an "employee" when they are free to work for another company five minutes later? I may have missed it since I checked out of this thread when it began to get REALLY chippy, but did you address the idea that perhaps someone should offer the performers the 25 dollar insurance policies you propose companies should purchase? Shouldn't they take on at least some of the burden for their health care? As for who Looky is, I'm starting to wonder if maybe the name should be LookyThere because it feels like I've been through all of this before. Rog Rog Reviews
To say porn performers are EMPLOYEES rather than INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS is ridiculous. Regardless of what the California courts say. The intent is to protect the performers while on set. That protection is there. A performer can always sue the studio/director in civil court. Thats what the rest of country does. If a studio does not want to be held liable for injuries, they need to only hire actors who are bonded and insured. Otherwise the studio faces the same fate the rest of us do. Anyone who hires someone to perform work on their home or place of business must make sure a contractor's personal insurance covers them while they work for you. Ruling performers are EMPLOYEES was an activist decision that would be overturned even by the Ninth Circuit.
What's the fun of getting old if you can't be dirty? 141 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 5:50AM
Well, I've been watching this thing spasm across the boards for the last several days waiting to see where it would go, deciding whether or not to weigh in. Here's the thing; under CAL/OSHA guidelines, virtually anyone who gets paid to do anything is an employee; that isn't the issue. The issue is that CAL/OSHA cannot legally create guidelines that restrict a business beyond its ability to adapt those rules and remain commercially viable. Plainly, the current CAL/OSHA adult industry rules do exactly that. According to their rules we must use gloves, condoms, dental dams and protective goggles. But we're allowed to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to digitally paint them out, so that's okay. We're also required to post guidelines at every location. And provide a free medical follow-up exam. And keep a medical history file for every performer we shoot. Plainly, these regulations are designed around a political agenda to put the industry out of business. BUT, no one has challenged them yet. As has been mentioned here, Evasive Angles, when hit with a fine, simply paid it. Eventually, CAL/OSHA will go after someone with some fortitude and some legal muscle -- say Hustler or Vivid or Wicked (condoms or no, they're nowhere near being in compliance, either) -- and they'll get these regs overturned as being too burdensome, the same fate that's finally coming to 2257. And here's how they'll do it... It won't be dithering over independent contractors vs. employees. It will be using CAL/OSHA's own regs against them. You see, under Title 8, the entertainment industry (which definition as currently written plainly encompasses the porn biz) has all kinds of leeway written into CAL/OSHA regs for employees who have knowingly chosen to undertake hazardous jobs. Like stunt performers. Or documentary crews going into hazardous locations. Or film crews working underwater or in dangerous environments. I have long argued that porn performers aren't actors; they're stunt people. They are acting while performing an intense physical act that includes the controlled but real possibility of physical harm. The same kind of rules apply to professional athletes who get hurt -- and occasionally killed -- for the entertainment of others all the time. No one thinks that's morally wrong. The difference is...? Nada. Paul Cambria or Lou Sirkin or some other clever, clever lawyer is going to realize that these regs are being applied unequally and kick the shit out of CAL/OSHA. All it's going to require is an added form for talent to sign, very similar to the waivers I had to sign when I was a professional stuntman, and this thing is old news. And for the record, yes, I got hurt while doing stunts. And I was very young at the time. And, no, I never sued anyone. Because I knew exactly what I was getting myself into and chose to take the risk. Now, can we get back to talking about porn around here?
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Porn Scout Deactivated User
3735 Posts 10/02
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 5:57AM
YesFirst, you make a statement that classifying performers as independent contractors is ridiculous. But then, instead of following up with a supporting argument explaining WHY it's ridiculous, you branch into a completely different argument about how they're already protected because they can sue in civil court, and that studios that are concerned about liability need only hire performers that are bonded and insured. Both are legitimate points that don't have anything to do with how the law narrowly defines employment status for performers. You also don't support your contention that the decision was activist and will be overturned. So, again, yes there are problems with your logic.
Yes you are right. I was not trying to win an article with logic. Legal arguments don't necessarily need logic to win. Hence the Activist Decision and in my IMO, ridiculous. But thats California. They won't go and out right ban porn but they will do in a different way. Eli put it much better. No need to challenge the court ruling when you can use the regulation against itself. I didn't bother to write a dissertation on why a higher court "could" overturn the ruling because no one would read it. My other point was that performers that get hurt do have recourse. Fight it out in civil court like everyone else. As an Employee, the performer could manually masturbate for a studio in a hermetically sealed room on sterilized bedding and still claim work-related carpel-tunnel injuries. Fill out the accident report and don't bother challenging it. If employer didn't ask the performer to masturbate, they never would have been injured. Judgment for the employee. Thats how decisions are made in workman's comp insurance arbitration. If there was a chance the injury occurred or was aggravated by the workplace, it did happen. Burden a proof for injury is more challenging in traditional civil courts so thats why they want to avoid it.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 9:21AM
...and why does it matter? Why not attack the argument and not the poster.
All I can say is that if the porn biz would clean up it's collective act and demonstrate to us that they care about the human beings they use to make a buck just a TINY bit, this whole firestorm will blow over quickly. As it is now....all I see is the modern equivalent of sweat shop mentality.
Thanks for the post eli, I was trying to point out earlier in the thread the level of restrictions that seem to exist on OSHA's guidelines. Taken at face value I have trouble believing that any major company would choose to operate under those conditions,is push came to shove; especially if they have the option of moving to a relatively more hospitable area for a time (asssuming one exists lol). Edited by - 4theheart on 1/26/2008 10:43:48 AM
Nah, no argument here because I really don't give a shit about yours one way or the other. It doesn't matter to me in the slightest. It's snowy outside and I'd rather slide on a soapbox down the hill than waste any more time listening to yours. You do make good points here, but I agree that credibility is lost when you hide behind aliases and when you don't take time to review and edit your posts. If I had more time, I'd highlight the punctuation problems instead of just the spelling issues. Have some pride in yourself and your argument. The sloppiness is distracting. Edited to add: It's funny that your post looks like that AFTER you edited it. HA!
Edited by - threesomebody on 1/26/2008 12:20:25 PM
Eli's post is right on, except for 1 small point. Stuntmen were covered by workers comp and while he might not have filed a claim, many of them did. I handled work comp claims on the behalf of the studios for injured stuntmen. Many of them waited until the end of their careers and filed numerous specific injury as well as continuous trauma claims. Cal-OSHA is an issue, however, there is First Amendment question in regards to the use of condoms, dental dams and goggles. I am not a First Amendment lawyer therefore I cannot address whether Constitutional rights to free speech override state/county imposed regulations. I suspect that the industry will have a defensible position though. This will be discussed at the XBiz seminar. The bigger issue is money. If the state is getting their slice of the pie via insurance premiums paid to State Compensation Insurance Fund (yes they are a state controlled carrier) I suspect the regulation that Eli's discusses will not be necessary. If the performers are covered and there is someone else to carry the cost of injuries other than the taxpayers of California, Cal-OSHA might become a non-issue. Also, we will have more political clout in Sacramento if we are seen as an industry that pays money into the state's coffers as well as takes care of its own. As for lookyhere being my employee, as he has stated he is not. Who lookyhere is can only be speculated on. However, I can assume that this industry is being looked at and watched by those involved in the labor movement. California, in particular, is a test state for many employment issues as well as workers compensation. What happens here first is used as the basis for new laws and regs in other states. I suspect that their are others from outside the industry that are also reading these posts that have a vested interest in this issue. Michael www.adultbizlaw.com
It seems as though this poster has very personal issues with a major agenda....and is attacking the industry, if it is an insider why is the reason they are so outspoken while hiding? Performers are treated very well on my sets and it is insulting to make it look like performers are subject to "sweat shop" environments, that is ridiculous, in all the years i've been doing this no one has been injured on one of my sets, injuries are not frequent and are rarely issues....My issue is that I dont want to be OVER regulated by CAL OSHA, not that I have issues with performers being compensated for injuries. I dont think i'd like porn with no skin on skin contact, with performers wearing goggles and gloves and having my "sets" inspected, this would surely drive business out of california. If a performer works for 10 different people in the matter of 5 days, or even two studios in one day, I have issue with calling performers employees.
Edited by - julesjordanvideo on 1/26/2008 1:27:04 PM
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 1:48PM
Jules, from what I know of the buissness, you are one of the more hightly respected and talented people. YOU satate that you have no problem with people being compensated for injuries. In the adult buz as it is now, exactly who is compensating the performers when it does(and it does) happen? As far as calling someone an employee, i agree that it may seem likethy're not, but in reality they are.(that is not an issue anymore). The courts have decided that. But please dont try to convince anyone who knows that everthing is just hunky dory for performers in YOUR buissness. It is anything but that. The PORN EXPERIENCE for the large majority of performers is profoundly negative. And back to a previous question: When the worst case possible did happen(APRIL 2004), exactly what did the industry do for those people involved? What is the industry doing today for those people(they still have HIV ya know) Besides calling them dumb sluts
What's the fun of getting old if you can't be dirty? 141 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 5:04PM
Well, since I've started down this road, I might as well wade in and tackle a few points. First this:Someone sound a bell; we've found the underlying dogma, and the actual point of lookyhere starting this thread. As my journalism teacher used to say, "There's always an axe. Look hard enough and you'll find it." Making a blanket statement like this is patently absurd, particularly for someone who claims to be an outsider. I've only been in this business for nineteen years, so I'm kind of a n00b, but this simply hasn't been my experience. Bear in mind I live with a porn star who recently chose to go get an agent because she wanted to perform more. Not because we needed the money or because we were desperate... Kylie simply wanted to shoot more scenes than she has been. Are there performers in this business who have a miserable experience? Absolutely. There are also people who love it. And then there are the majority (based on my own minimal two decade's experience) of us for whom the business is bittersweet depending on the day. Y'know, like any other job. This is the point I think is missing from this discussion. Is the porn business all wonderful all the time? Of course not, but neither is any other business. I can introduce you to plenty of people who have had "profoundly negative" experiences working for Michael Bay... or James Cameron... or Joel Silver. I also know people who have had emotionally bruising jobs working for Wal-Mart and Taco Bell and Merrill Lynch and ManPower. And don't even get me started on friends who were in the military. Among her many jobs, my mother worked as a counselor for anorexic and bulimic girls at a retreat... and she despised it. Felt like it was crushing her soul. My father sells cars. And hates it. My grandfather had a spring shop where he pounded steel by hand with a sledgehammer every day, and it was dirty and dangerous and grueling. That's why they call it a job. That's why they pay you for it. Where is it written that porn -- or any other occupation, for that matter -- should always be fun? When I ran AVN editors would routinely complain about some story I'd assigned or video I'd given them to review. "I don't want to watch this," they'd whine. My standard response was, "Well, it's a good thing we're paying you, then. If it were fun it would be a hobby and we wouldn't have to pay you." In my life I've worked virtually every job you can imagine, from security guard to second-string reporter to mainstream director, and there have always been days where I would rather have had a root canal than gone to work. I would posit that any other gainfully employed person could say the same. I know Sandra Romain used to get up at 6 a.m. every day when she had an anal scene (which was virtually every day) to start her prep, and I know there are days she really hated going to work. This is a girl who consistently did the roughest scenes ever shot, day in and day out. But I spoke to her a few days ago in Romania and she's dying to come back. She doesn't need the money and she isn't supporting a drug habit. She's simply bored to tears. That's how "profoundly negative" her porn experience was. So, with all due respect, lookyhere, as my grandfather would have said, you don't know whether you're shot, fucked, powder-burnt or snake bit. You're either a mendacious retired performer with a bitter streak and an axe to grind, or a moralizing outsider who doesn't know shit from Shinola. Either way, why don't you stick to your case -- such as it is -- and leave the blanket generalizations and your martyrdom-by-proxy at the door. ... Okay. In the interest of brevity (I know, I know...) I'll save the other points for later, but I have a few interesting worker's comp anecdotes as well.
Eli and Jules - well stated. Sorry sweeties - my opinions on this have nothing to do with being a publicist. It's common sense from being around adult performers, on and off sets, day in and day out. If anyone thinks I don't have experience to draw on in making my arguments, then they probably don't know that I spent about 18 years in mainstream entertainment (music and radio mostly) and have many friends and acquaintances (past and present) in mainstream entertainment, covering movies, TV, radio, music, modeling, etc. (including Eli ;)). I can say with insider knowledge and honesty that the adult industry isn't any more dangerous than the mainstream entertainment industry (as a whole). If you count the actual number of people working in adult, versus the injuries that do occur and the type of injuries, and how often/to how many people, the percentage of performers in adult are safer than the workers in the mainstream entertainment industry in general. Adult entertainment is certainly less dangerous to a performer on average than the "blue collar" person doing a hazardous job, in dangerous surroundings as Eli , myself and others have already stated. I believe that the majority of us saw the axes at the beginning of the string.... Answering any questions posited isn't going to change the mind of anyone that is looking for a monetary/personal/theological gain by going after adult for this type of "victimization clause". Nor is it going to shake anyone in that mind frame from their argument. No matter what the reality may be, there will always be some that will try to created a new version of the reality to suit their own purposes. Their belief will always color their observations, making anything posited or proved fit into reinforcing their belief, even if the position taken and demonstrated is the opposite of the belief that The Believer has in their mind. There is a rule in scientific experimentation that the process must be objective to reduce a biased interpretation of the results. This string is turning into a worthless experiment. Black and Blue Media: PR and Publicity
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 9:02PM
ANd I happen to think that this is EXACTLY what the porn industry does. In my opionion, there is only one thing more inaccurate than the way the "mainstream' portrays the porn industry, and that is "the way the porn industry tries to portray itself to the mainstream." The reality of day to day life in porn valley, for the average performer, is nothing for a multi-BILLION dollar 'industry' to be proud of. And to compare the discontent which one might feel regarding the average day to day jobs that most of us have all experienced with the type of discontent that comes form ,well, lets be honest, shoving things up your ass, is ,in my opinion, absurd. To try to portray porn as "just another job' is, imho, is just dishonest.
I find this to be true as well. I am not aware of a single fatality on set in the adult industry while the "on set" death count in mainstream probably exceeds more than 100 within the last 20 years. How many have died in professional sports or at least suffered injuries that caused serious lasting permanent disability compared to the adult industry ? Overall, this industry is safe, but those that are not involved in it refuse to believe that. Michael www.adultbizlaw.com
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 9:23PM
Thanks for respondign pornlaw,, can you tell us how many mainstream acors have gotten HIV, gonn/chlam, hpv, hepatitis, anal warts etc.etc. in mainstream hollywood? It happens every single day in the valley.(not hiv), but everything else listed and more. And though I too have never heard of anyone dying on a porn set, I could list about a dozen names from hte last decade who were certainly given what some call "death senteces" (HIV). And what did this industry do for them? I'll keep asking, but i know NONE of the 'insiders' here will honestly answer that question. And with all due respect, I think there is alot m ore injury and illness in porn than you may be aware of pornlaw. Perhaps we can discuSS this at your upcoming forum. AND MAYBE WE'LL ALSO TALK ABOUT HIV IN THE GAY INDUSTRY AND HOW MANY DEATHS HAVE OCCURED THERE!! And the govt. ISNT going to make the distintion between the two when drafting legislations. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/26/2008 9:29:06 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/26/2008 9:36:05 PM
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 26 2008 : 11:20PM
And the difference is: all of those other industries provide some kind of remedy. According to LA CAOUTNY HEALTH DEPARTMENT, 976 reported std's from AIM in a 23 month perdiod.(that is JUST gonn/chlam, (forget hepres, hepatits etc.,etc.,etc). What % of total performers is this?(thats an old lawyers tactic, dont ask a question you dont already know the answer to.) "Over all this industry is safe"......again with all due respect, and i do respect what you do, but would you do anything with anyone who works in this biz without a condom? Edited by - lookyhere on 1/26/2008 11:28:07 PM
Honestly the new law hurts small or up comming companies more than established companies. But Im sure a performer could declare thier vargina a private company and be expected to provide its own insurance.. lol The way everything is moving unto the internet I think the goverment had to put some strangle hold on it. But hey the republicans want you closed down and the democrates want to tax you to death. I'm sure there is some way around it.
Ah... you're baiting me in regards to your last question. As for the issue of STDs in the industry, every occupation as inherent risks. Manual laborers develop low back injuries, secretaries develop carpal tunnel syndrome, nurses catch all types of communicable diseases, including HIV and Hep C. As for the County of LA Health Department reporting 976 cases of Gonorrhea and Chlamydia, I do not find this compelling. For the most part, both infections, if detected and treated early, are benign. Neither cause death or lasting permanent injury. And yes, STDs are an inherent risk to performing, no different than a sprained low back or a sore wrist to other occupations. Actually, a performer getting gonorrhea and chlamydia is akin to contracting the flu from a coworker in your office. I am not aware of a performer dieing of gonorrhea or chlamydia, while we both know that the influenza virus has killed millions through out human history. I don't see LA Health Department revealing the transmission rates of the influenza virus in the office setting and mandating office workers to wear surgical masks and latex gloves to prevent the deaths of office workers. My reference that the industry is safe is regards to permanent injury and death. While you cite performers that have contracted HIV, what you fail to take into account is to how many nurses have contracted HIV, Hep C and other types of chronic diseases because of their employment. Not only have I represented major studios, I have also represented numerous hospitals and health care facilities. Despite blood borne pathogen protocols, nurses and others in the health care field still contract disease through accidents such as needle sticks. Accidents do occur. I am not saying that certain steps should not implemented to make a safe industry safer, but I will not condemn an industry that is safer than others in regards to permanent injury. I do agree that there needs to be a remedy if in fact a performer suffers lasting injuries. Michael www.adultbizlaw.com
once again, you guys do realize that lookyhere is ANITA CANNIBAL, correct? i would stake my life on that. its her. she is very upset over the fact that no one wants to shoot her because she is condom only and has now taken it to the extreme.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Jan 28 2008 : 1:31PM
I don't see the point of knowing who lookyhere is. The question is not whether or not lookyhere has misrepresented facts put forward. Lookyhere does not determine what an employee is in terms of workmens comp insurance, in this case, the state of California does.
Whether its Anita or not, this is an issue that unfortunately is not going away. She is just more vocal about it then anyone else. By the way Christian -- great blog. "Good times." Its a nice inside look at the industry for fans from someone that can actually write. Michael AdultBizLaw.com
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 28 2008 : 3:30PM
Ah... you're baiting me in regards to your last question. As for the issue of STDs in the industry, every occupation as inherent risks. Manual laborers develop low back injuries, secretaries develop carpal tunnel syndrome, nurses catch all types of communicable diseases, including HIV and Hep C. As for the County of LA Health Department reporting 976 cases of Gonorrhea and Chlamydia, I do not find this compelling. For the most part, both infections, if detected and treated early, are benign. Neither cause death or lasting permanent injury. And yes, STDs are an inherent risk to performing, no different than a sprained low back or a sore wrist to other occupations. Actually, a performer getting gonorrhea and chlamydia is akin to contracting the flu from a coworker in your office. I am not aware of a performer dieing of gonorrhea or chlamydia, while we both know that the influenza virus has killed millions through out human history. I don't see LA Health Department revealing the transmission rates of the influenza virus in the office setting and mandating office workers to wear surgical masks and latex gloves to prevent the deaths of office workers. My reference that the industry is safe is regards to permanent injury and death. While you cite performers that have contracted HIV, what you fail to take into account is to how many nurses have contracted HIV, Hep C and other types of chronic diseases because of their employment. Not only have I represented major studios, I have also represented numerous hospitals and health care facilities. Despite blood borne pathogen protocols, nurses and others in the health care field still contract disease through accidents such as needle sticks. Accidents do occur. I am not saying that certain steps should not implemented to make a safe industry safer, but I will not condemn an industry that is safer than others in regards to permanent injury. I do agree that there needs to be a remedy if in fact a performer suffers lasting injuries. Michael www.adultbizlaw.com [/quote] Repeated exposure to gonn\chlam can have SERIOUS long term implications, sterility being just one of them. And yes, healthcare workers are subject to these diseases also,but they have a remedy to turn to when it happens. The adult biz offers NO rememdy. Would the sasme people here who basically say that performers know the risks, and therefore should shoulder the resposibilty themselves say the same about doctors and nurses.(Sorry nurse, but you knew that patient was ill and you treated them anyway so thats too bad for you) Except in porn, the exposure to blood porne pathogens is not accidental, and yet still no remedy is offered. Yes, performers do take risks, but when you HIRE sosmeone to take that risk so YOU can profit from it, you have to shoulder some of the resposibility when those forseeable risks actually happen. This mantra that the adult industry is as safe as any other is simply not true. It has just been repeated so many times(just like porn is a 14 billion dollar industry), that people actually believe it. Just like the statement 'THE INDUSTRY POLICES ITSELF" What a pure load of hogwash. Who does this policing? Who in porn has ever been held accountable for anything 'by the industry" What actually do these industry police look for? How much HEP c is there in porn? nobody knows(nobody 'WANTS' TO KNOW) Again, with all due respect, I think you might want to do a little more investigation into the reality of the overall "health" of the adult industry. And Christian, i'll say it again, I am neither luke or anita. Neither of these two know 1/100th of what I know, and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg here on this forum. HPV,HERPES,CERVICAL CANCER,HEPATITIS,TRICHOMONIS,(drugs anyone) And for the record(because i strive tobe as accurate as possibe) is there anything you see in my posts pornlaw, that you would say is factually incorrect regarding the law. If so, please correct me. And do you think the govt. will make any distinction between the gay and straight industry when drafting legislation? And still now answer about what the INDUSTRY has done for those who have had these worse case scenarios happen to them. Maybe Christian will have the guts to anser that. Would anybody here care to comment on HIV in the gay industry? And Christian, whether i am or not, and I'm not anita, do you see anything inaccurate in what i have written? Pornlaw, what did you mean by,"this is an issue that UNFORTUNATELY(emphasis by me) is not going to go away? Or id you meant that it is an issue that "unfortunately for the industry" they are now going to have to address? I see nothing unfortunate about discussing one of the MOST if not the MOST important issue in the industry today. The ONLY thing unfortunate about this issue is the way it is currently addressed by this so called "industry." And exactly how is this 'unfortunate' issue addressed by the industry? I am reminded of the old Simon and Garfunkle song "THE SOUND OF SILENCE"
Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 3:47:44 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 3:51:50 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 4:20:50 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 6:12:52 PM
Show me the studies. The CDC states that gonorrhea and chlamydia left un-treated can have long term effects such as sterility because of Pelvic Inflammatory Disease. However, PID can be cured with antibiotics as well. Here's a CDC study illustrating that the rate for chlamydia in California has basically remained consistent with the US rate for the period of 1997-2006. This is despite the explosion of adult production in California for those same years. CDC Chlamydia - California As for Los Angeles - the rate here seems to stay relatively in line with the state for same period of time - again despite the fact that Los Angeles is the content production capitol of the US. CDC Chlamydia - Los Angeles If this industry is one big pool of STDs it doesn't seem to be evident in the epidemiological studies. Michael AdultBizLaw.com Edited by - pornlaw on 1/28/2008 6:08:39 PM
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 28 2008 : 6:41PM
When comparing std rates to that of the general population you must remember that the clinics that offer these servies to the general poulation generally do not test the same people over and over again each month. AIM has a huge percentage of repeat customers. While a monthly look at infection rates from AIM may be steady at 3-5%, you have to take into consideration that 5% this month,5% next month, and so on and so on, at the end of the year you have a VERY LARGE percentage of the entire PORN POOL who at some time or another contracted one of these illnesses, compared to only a small % of the overall population. I can easily say with confidence that at least 40% of porn workers will get some type of std(and i'm not counting herpes) over the course of their carreer. That is MUCH higher than the general population. The 976 person figure cited BY LA COUNTY HEALTH DEPT. is actually about 40-50% of all the induviduals tested by AIM. An astronomically higher rate than the general public. And remember this is JUSt GONN/CHLAM we're talking about here. Also take into account that performers also "pre medicate" before goingto AIM to avoid a positive resultand go to other clinics during the month when they feel they've got something and keep working with their negative AIM test.(see layla jades AVN INSIDER article on this very subject about 2 years ago)(lets not even get into the issue of over use of antibiotics which as you know over time become less and less effective0 As far as the adult industry impacting the overall rate of std's in california, we're only talking about a POOL of performers of about 900-1200 a month. Hardly enough to make a statistical difference in a state with millions of people. Do you have any linksrgarding how dangerous multiple exposures over short periods(lets say an 18 month porn carreer) to gonn/chlam can be. I cant find any but I think it would be interesting. And your limks show statistics from std clinics where people(general public)go to when they feel they are already ill with something. It is not a percentage of the general population. Staticstics can be manipulated however you want. I too can be guilty of this. Using the links you cited lets compare 1. # of clinics 1 (aim) 2. # OF INDIVIDUALS TESTED 1800-2000(PER YEAR) 3. # OF POSITIVES 976 YOU DO THE MATH. Also, look at the clinics cited in your links....corectional facilities,std clinics(places where you would expect to find very high rates) and it still doesnt come close to the adult industry. The state link you provided shows 500 cases per 100,000 women (FIGURE A) or about one half of one percent. Alot less than porn. (chlamydia) Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 7:03:12 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 7:11:11 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/28/2008 7:31:45 PM
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 5:00AM
I've been on vacation, but wanted to correct Mike's statements... The PCR-DNA test which is the current accepted test in the industry detects HIV infection within one month 95% of the time. The Eliza screener which is NOT the accepted test since 1998 detects HIV infection at that same 'accuracy' within three - 6 months. Also, with the current HIV test in the industry, the HIV PCR-DNA test, I would test DETECTABLE for HIV. It is the HIV-RNA test done by my specialist that detects viral load in which I test NON-DETECTABLE. Oh, and lookyhere - I take a bit of offense at you saying that I have a death sentence over my head. I'll quote a character from Nip/Tuck: "HIV is the new diabetes." I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of testing in the industry. I feel bad whenever I hear of a performer so much as getting gonorrhea. But for you to paint all the companies as uncaring, and all the performers as miserable because they have anal sex, that certainly makes me look at your statements as being a little biased.
Anyone posting here not have a death sentence hanging over her or his head?
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the unknown pervert Deactivated User
I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 8:48AM
So if my math and Tricia's numbers are both correct, if the grand total of performers with positive HIV tests ever reaches nineteen then there will be a twentieth one wandering around out there somewhere who slipped through the cracks in the system.(95%=19 out of 20) I'm thinking this is one scoreboard everyone in Chatsworth better be keeping their eyes on. Edited to add-This is the most optimistic situation. There is nothing that says the one that gets missed can't be the 9th, 10th, 11th,...so on actual positive. Of course it is also possible to catch 40 straight HIV positive tests and then miss two in a row. Point is this isn't foolproof and eventually some fool is going to prove this. Edited by - the unknown pervert on 1/29/2008 8:52:37 AM
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 11:59AM
unknown pervert- That statistic is the average detected in ONE MONTH. I couldn't remember the time span when it reaches 99%, so I didn't post that. Also, I thought one month was significant, since that is the current amount of time between performer HIV tests. For the record, I would have no problems with the idea of cutting the time between tests to 21 days or even 14 days. I also recommend 6 month testing for hepatitis and syphilis.
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 12:25PM
truth is tricia is a bit behind the times. The six month extent on the window period for modern antibody testing is simply wrong. Most people, about 95%, develop antibodies within 30 days (22 being the average)for the record the PCR testing is 16 days with the same 95% within 30 days. But PCR testing can only detect viral loads above a certain level (20-40 copies per milliliter with the most accurate and expensive tests) but even at that level HIV patients on protease inhibitor drugs do drop to undetectable levels and if you look at an HIV test the term used to denote a negative status id "Not Detected" The PCR tests are actually considered to be less accurate by the CDC but I guess Sharon knows more about it than they do. Even the inventor of the PCR technology Dr Kary Mullis has flatly stated that this methodology should noy be used as a screen for HIV but I guess Sharon knows more than him too. This is peoples lives here that they are fucking around with and my stand has always been for the performers to educate themselves on the issue and do whatever they feel to be right for them There is a reason that the ELISA is the gold standard test, but nobody at AIM will talk about that. The truth is if we really wanted to be safe instead of a jobs program for ex porn stars with dime store diplomas we'd more likely be using the 15 minute oral swabs before every scene. Personally I wouldn't allow anyone from AIM to even take my temperature. I know of way too many fuckups over there, way too many. But if you really get down to it HIV is the least of the performers problems in this industry there are many other health issues that are much more likely to affect you adversely and if you do ass to mouth and choking out hell you may as well skip the HIV tests because you are much more likely to die from these practices. if you want all the info (though its a couple years old now you can search it on my site. Its well researched and comes from sources like the CDC and the AIDS Foundation, not from some hack with no more formal education than a GED
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 12:55PM
Didn't want to edit my previous post, but wanted to add: I'll repeat: it's the PCR-RNA tests which test people who have viral loads of under 20ppm as NON-DETECTABLE. That's the one I get from my specialist. The one the industry uses is a different test: the PCR-DNA test. Mike - I know that you've done SO MUCH research on the subject, but stop making yourself look like an idiot, and go back and see which tests you're actually ranting and raving about, ok? At your age, you would have had to take more than high-school biology or have some decent reading comprehension skills to actually understand and interpret all those facts you spurt off by rote, but there's a huge difference between RNA and DNA. The reason I show NON-DETECTABLE on RNA testing from my specialist is because my body has slowed down and/or stopped the viral RNA replication so much that my viral load is too low to be detected by PCR analysis. I would show DETECTABLE on the PCR-DNA testing that the industry uses because my body still carries the antibodies that it created when it was first being attacked by the virus.
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lookyhere Deactivated Again
59 Posts 1/07
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 2:03PM
To quote an old saturday night live routine...."Mike, you ignorant slut" I suggest you go to AVN.com and put CDC REPORT in the search box and read the official CDC REPORT regarding the 2004outbreak. THe CDC is fullly aware of the tests (HIV PRC/DNA "QUALITATIVE"), that AIM uses. The DR. Mullis statement you cite is about 10 years old. Who is behind the times? I wil also quote the head of LA. COUNTY HEALTH DEPARTMENT regarding AIM's use of the pcr test..."to move away from the pcr test would be a huge step backwards." The DNA "QUALITATIVE"(ROCHE 1.5 AMPLICOR TEST) CAN DETECT AS LITTEL AS "4" COPIES PER ML. That same cdc report says in it that the pcr test has a shorter window or eclipse period than does the elisa method of testing. (just for the record, elisa and pcr are not tests themselves but are differnt methodologies of performing tests). AIM, the CDC, L.A.COUNTY HEALTH DEPT. and even the lab that performs the testing, have all researched, debated and concluded that the pcr/DNA "QUALITATIVE", is the best test for this very unique situation and clientele that AIM serves. On your wesite mike, you had a link several years ago to a page that detailed the pcr test and its limitaions. You also reprinted that same page on your site a day or two later. What you left off of the page you printed on your site was the one and only sentence in that whole link that talked about the QUALITATIVE test, which basically says the qualitative test is currenty the MOST sensitive test available for early detection testing. I wonder why you intentionally left out the one and only sentence in that whole link that actually talked about the test that AIM actually uses. I agree with you completely Tricia, and I owe another apology to you for my insensitive statement.(I will take myself to the woodshed for my well deserved whoopin) And MIKE, that LETTER from you "friend ant the cdc" a few years ago was laughable at best, and complete b.s. at worst. PCR testing is now routine in the medical field and is fast replacing many of the old methods. The U.S. is far behind the rest of the world catching up. By the way MIKE, I know you had some serious medical problems lateley and glad to see you are o.k. By the way, if you had any blood transfusions, the blood you recieved was tested using the pcr method, not an elisa test. Edited by - lookyhere on 1/29/2008 2:07:32 PM Edited by - lookyhere on 1/29/2008 2:10:10 PM
