And what do you guys make of rape fantasies? I saw some shocking statistic recently about a significant number of women saying they found them exciting. Maybe it was bullshit and exaggerated, but I am certain the real proportion would still be surprisingly high. Even if it was just 5% - that's millions of women into that type of thing. Again I have to stick with the principle: if it is a mutually appreciated fantasy, there's nothing we can do to stop lovers from engaging in that kind of roleplay. So how can we stop performers? Or the more critical question is, should we stop them, and why? It's definitely a real fantasy, and I don't believe anyone is actually advocating for actual rape to be legalized. This is why I have to keep emphasizing fantasy. Yes, physical sex is occurring in porn, but it doesn't mean the scenarios or pretense of the role-playing is real. That's why they are called roles. Some people like to play the role of the victim, some like to be the oppressor, and I'm sure some like playing both. I'm sure you all know that Eurythmics song. I think the same must apply with race-play. I don't believe people into that are hateful or bigoted, anymore than I believe people into BDSM are violent and hostile. Surely some of them are racist or hostile, but for the vast majority, most probably not. Hell, there are many interracial couples out there who are very much into both. I wouldn't question any couple's love just because they may be into some kinky sex.
To that point, I've said before, I totally respect any performers doing just what they are comfortable with. I'm pretty sure Lex refuses to use the N-word or be part of any scene using it. I think for him, he may have personally turned a leaf at some point midway in his career, and may currently shun any and all of that stereotypical stuff now. But when he was working with Jake Steed he seemed to have a lot of fun. More to your point, maybe he only appeared to enjoy it, or he felt he had to in order to establish himself. That was earlier in his career, but he did work with Jake Steed quite a bit, and then he's still worked with Dogfart up til recent years. But I cant totally understand why some performers may be concerned. I also totally respect Shane Diesel for for giving a fat black middle finger to political correctness. I suspect if he were in total control of a production company, he'd probably run things much like they did on HushHush. Lots of edgy raceplay themes, lots of N-bombs flying around. I have nothin but respect for both of them, and see no reason why either one should conform to the sensibilities or self-expression or comportment of the other. What I dislike though is seeing the pendulum swing so far toward PC that people become afraid to even express their fantasies or feaky proclivities. That really is the atmosphere we're in now. I'm not too caught up by this as I may have been when the topic was first broached, because I know the pendulum never stops swinging. Before too long, it will swing back to the more libertarian side. Someone will figure it out. The novelty of this "classy" trend will fade, then things will get real freaky stank again, and another trend begins. Then the novelty of that will wear thin. It's crazy to think it's already been 2 years since Blacked first launched. Edited by - Melvyn on 5/18/2016 12:23:20 AM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 18 2016 : 12:48AM
So your response to free speech issues and overly PC culture is to try and shut people up and stifle the opinions of people that disagree with you and have alternate viewpoints? Fascinating. People are going to complain about stuff, man. There is no way around that.
I know of at least a couple people in this very thread. But I will not put them on the spot. You can rest assured there are always conscientious objectors who still feel they have to bite their tongue. But my previous post touches on this. You alluded to this kind of self-consciousness. The fact is, there's a lot of people into hard raceplay, but they're worried to even say so. On the other hand, there's a vocal lot who are very hostile toward hard raceplay, but they have shown no compunction whatsoever to attack people with hateful language. I've seen so many similar debates, and people making personal attacks toward others, which is to say using real hate speech, despite their position supposedly being against hate speech. I don't know if you were here for this whole thread, but it was getting real ugly in the middle. As I said before, it is no more fair to attack fans of raceplay porn as racist than it is to attack fans of rough sex where women are manhandled as sexist. There was a great lack of respect and more shamefully, an abundance of personal attacks earlier in this topic and it wasn't coming from proponents of a more libertarian stance on the issue.
Who have I tried to shut up and stifle? That's much more like censorship or appealing to authoritarian intervention. The whole concept of "political correctness" is based on authoritarians shutting down speech that did not toe the line of the governing establishment. It was a fascistic concept and still is, only now it's been diluted and socialized more to connote a sensitivity to feelings. I don't see how you could miss the point like that, when I said explicitly, you don't win by shutting people down or no-platforming them. You win by engaging with better speech. That's the fundamental basis of a debate. Part of being better speech just so happens to involve respect. And I think we have indeed become an exceptionally sensitized society. That's fine by me. I don't encouraged or supported people deliberately trying to offend. What I support is tolerance of offensive language when it does occur. Again, I tolerate offensive speech, and if something is so offensive to me I feel motivated to speak against it, I'll do my best to speak my mind and try to formulate a better argument. Civility has its place in a healthy debate as well. That's all the more reason why I wanted to remind you of where that was lost previously in this thread. If you haven't familiarized yourself with the history of this thread, I encourage you to peruse through at your leisure, and take note of which parties were being most uncivil.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 18 2016 : 1:26AM
Are these friends of yours? Have you discussed it with them in private? I'm just trying to get a grip on how you're privy to the innermost thoughts of people who you claim are afraid to express said thoughts. It seems to me you're building your argument around a group of unidentifiable and unquantifiable people that I just have to take you at your word that they do indeed exist in some unspecified quantity.Actually what I was alluding to is people (specifically performers) who just don't like race play. Period. Not because of any external pressure to conform to a PC norm, but because they just don't like it to begin with.You're kinda going off the rails here. Based on this and what you said above, you seem to take issue with me thinking and saying that some guy (regardless of race) looks like a fucking idiot running around stark naked with a pair of timberlands on. It has nothing to do with race (I frequently wear timberlands) and everything to do with looking silly to the point of distraction. Yet based on what you've said above you take issue with me expressing that opinions. Even though I'm not saying that naked timberland porn shouldn't be made, nor am I protesting, or trying to shut down production of naked timberland porn. But because my criticisms of of a performers appearance could be (mis)construed by you as having some racial motivation it is verbotten evidently because you've decided to be the thought police for the thought police. How bout we just let people express their opinions (even the ones who don't like hard race play) and actually worry about the ones who are trying to force their opinions on others (and the industry)Personally I do think the demand and thus production of IR porn does have a racist element to it, but I fully support the enjoyment and production of it by others if that's what they're in to. I just find it amazingly hypocritical that so many people on these IR threads (not you) feel it is perfectly acceptable for them to label, categorize, and exclude races based on their own personal preferences , but they seem to take great offense at the idea that a performer might do the same thing. (ie "I can decide what fucking I watch based mainly, if not entirely, on race but a performer shouldn't base what fucking they actually do on race at all") That being said, people have the right to be hypocritical about things, and they have the right to get aroused by whatever they want. So watch all of the timerland wearin' bitch slappin, "give me that big n****r dick!" race playin porn you want, and the production companies can make all they want without a peep out of me. This is no different than any other topic on here musing why a particular genre that the OP really likes isn't more popular.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 18 2016 : 1:49AM
Are you not crusading to stop/stiffle/eliminate/retard/slow political correctness? Maybe I missed your point, but that sure seems what you're driving at. When citing examples of PC did you not specifically mention people complaining about particular types of porn? Because I can quote them back to you if you'd like. So while I think you may have the best of intentions I don't think you have a full grasp of the impact of what you're trying to do, or you've done a terrible job of explaining your thoughts on the matter.So how exactly does that work outside of some thought experiment? Are you expecting to out-speech them in hopes of convincing them to share the same opinion as you? Are you going to out-speech them and convince them they should keep their opinions to themselves while you are still free to share yours? I don't really see a libertarian solution here based on what you've said thus far.Clearly. I was unaware that anyone could be so effected by anti-timberland views. I kid about the timberlands, but in all seriousness, I can't see anything in your posts that separates you from the people with whom you disagree other than being on the other side of the fence. These people that are complaining about... whatever, are simply expressing their opinions. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, even if the expression of those opinions somehow make you feel stifled. There is no guarantee with free speech that you won't be offended at some point. That's part of the price we pay.
I don't know them face to face in my private life, but I do correspond with them from time to time in private messages and do regard them as friends, as much as people who freely associate via a adult video internet forum might. Why you're being so cynical about that suggests you are pressed. But you can rest assured, as forthcoming as most people on this forum seem, not everyone is willing to share every idea that comes to their mind and captures their imagination. I'm not just speaking for myself, but at least two others here who are very pleasant and civil and our interests very much align, and on top of that, I know for sure there's plenty others into stuff that's way more deviant and extreme which make me seem like a squeamish prude by comparison, and surely they cannot all be commenting without the least inhibition or reservation. I actually do personally know some people, god bless their perverted hearts, who are into pretty debased fetishes - rape fantasies and beastialisty, etc. They may not be members in this community (or maybe they are and I just haven't connected the dots), and of course all we are left with is speculation. I'm just saying between the people I know personally, and the contacts I've made only via this forum, a lot is withheld. And the reason I would say I'm a bit reserved here is not because I'm afraid of sharing my ideas, but that maybe they're not as popular here. I'm very big into erotic art, comics and pinups. I'm big into fantasy and stories. This community is geared mostly around hype for specific performers, and a little bit of hype for some particular common fetishes like dual anal and stuff. So reiterating, I'm more reserved because I'm more interested in ideas and stories, art and critical analysis. There's more than a few other people here also who like analyzing, and I enjoy reading their posts. But I do correspond with some and I know they don't just speak whatever comes to their minds either, or all divulge their innermost fantasies. It would be naive to assume that everyone here is comfortable, anonymous as they may be here, sharing their freakiest fantasies. And I wouldn't wish to press anyone for that either. Still I am hopeful we'll get to the point where people won't hesitate to share their freakiest ideas. I think it would make it a lot more fun here. Edited by - Melvyn on 5/23/2016 12:08:57 AM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 23 2016 : 12:29AM
^ I don't see what any of that has to do with things being too PC. Political Correctness is stifling the speech of one group in order not to offend the sensibilities of another group. (often orchestrated by a third group) That doesn't sound like what you're describing at all. What group is stifling your friends or who are they afraid of offending? Usually when you start talking about "freaky" stuff, from my experience people clam up more due to shame than any external influences.
Yes we've been in agreement on that issue of hypocrisy by people taking offense to popular industry practices/designations, who are also fanatically obsessed with said practices. That classic line comes to mind regarding the outrage brigade: "the lady doth protest too much, methinks." But this is precisely why I find the hysteria which foments from such overblown moral outrage is in dire need of tempering with some decidedly un-PC porn championing. I'll champion it even if it's not up my alley personally. I'm not wild about LegalPorno's brand of extreme anal debasement. I'm not wild about facial abuse or similar sites. But I'd definitely support them over the sides who would try and protest them. That was pretty much how I felt about Max Hardcore. I think his stuff was gross, but as long as he kept his content consensual and of appropriate age... It behooves us to support that kind of stuff, especially when people want to condemn it and criminalize it as "obscenity." Because when the PC police or fake outrage brigade or the misguided social justice warriors trample over one unassuming niche, do you think it ends there? Hell nah. Then they're on to the next fake outrage. It never ends with them. They don't care about consent and volition. They want to regulate speech just so it grants them authority. Anyway, I think you and I are speaking past each other at this point. I think by now you must understand why I loathe political correctness in general. I loathe it in public, so it should go without saying I'm staunchly opposed to PC creeping into the domain of private adult entertainment.
Let's be very clear here. There's a distinct schism separating those crusading for more regulation and those crusading for less. When it comes to speech, you can bet your ass I'm in the latter group. There's no equivocating here. Point me to where I ever told someone their sexual fantasy goes too far and they should be condemned for it on moral grounds. Yet that is exactly the type of mentality I've been opposing. If I have been guilty of crusading it's been to take a stance against that type of sanctimonious imposition. Myself and others here have been explaining in this thread for months now why one cannot at once achieve parity by reinforcing glaring double standards. And that there is such a glaring double standard is proven by the fact this thread even has to exist and still some people find ways to challenge the premise, and yet where is the heated debate about Facial Abuse or similar sites with regards to sexism? Every single time this was brought up, the only responses were deflections or mitigations or downright dismissals. I think the reason we don't waste much time debating the need for greater sensitivity with respect to sexism in porn is because there are so many females who very much enjoy the type of porn which the PC police would deem is misogynist. It's hard to carry on a crusade on behalf of a victimized people who don't feel victimized, but on the contrary, passionately love this so-called victimization. And it should be hard to carry on a crusade against IR in the industry, claiming a basis of racism, when it is largely driven by black and or multiracial fans. It's also hard to carry on the crusade against sexism in porn when it's women who are making so much more money for the same exact work. Just like it's pretty hard to carry on the crusade against racism in porn when black male performers are making so much money. IR in the industry isn't making their lives harder. It's launched them to superstardom. So I sorta have to roll my eyes whenever some indignant porn "insider" wants to "dish" about the "industry" being so "racist." Sure it makes for a ego-boosting profile or think piece, but it's just moral grandstanding on what really amount to non-issues when you look at them in greater analytical detail. It typically ends up being some sanctimonious platitudes that insult the reader, insult the industry, and ultimately insult the fans, which include all races supplying the demand for it. There's a concept called moral exculpation where the indignant person is levying the most contemptuous charges against the society in which they live, while excusing themselves as the rare exception - "the good one." It's basically like white knighting, while implicitly disparaging their own community on the whole.
When we say speech, we also mean expression, which is not just vocal but visual as well. This can apply to self-expression and how people dress or comport themselves. You had mentioned how a black male performer may feel uniquely inhibited by especially sensitive viewers' perceptions of his treatment of a white female. What you're talking about is real. This is the chilling effect which myself and others are trying to explain. You know how Manuel likes to slap girls faces and there's plenty of other non-black male performers who apparently get away with the rougher stuff (admittedly from my limited experience watching him it seems rather mild)? Replace him with Wesley Pipes in the same position, doing the same exact thing. Uh oh, now we've got problems. Why? Because of the true liberals like me and my like-minded constituents who believe he should be as free to express himself how he wants as any other color performer, or because of the extra sensitive PC police, the regressive left who think they are liberal but are only reinforcing negative stigma without realizing it? If we yield the political territory to those PC-police, we only reinforce double standards. As if to say "Manuel and other light skinned performers can be as rough and rowdy as they want, and no one will object with a peep, but Lord knows we can't have any of these dark skinned fellows doing the same thing, as that would look bad." This is what that Tasty guy's argument was. That's the type of mentality that imposes harsh judgment and double standards which do effectively stifle someone's freedom of expression. You said yourself you have no qualms with porn being as edgy or provocative as people want it to be. But understand that there were people in this very thread who earlier argued against that, saying how it's morally wrong. They were drawing up all manner of preposterous conspiratorial tangents and false equivalences. Do we even have to ask if they had the authority to regulate things that they would be censoring a great deal at the expense of others, even many of those who identify as the demographic the outspoken critic purports to defend? This is what they want. If it doesn't suit their sensibilities, then it's morally wrong to them and shouldn't exist. It smacks of intolerance and entitlement. I understand at this point you're just trying to provide the devil's advocate view, and I always appreciate that kind of objectivity in a civil discussion. I maintain though that there is a very clear and fundamental distinction between my position and that of the opposing view. We are not two sides of the same coin. There's a world in which we seek to regulate or censor anything deviating from acceptability. Then it becomes a world censoring that which deviates from mainstream standards of wholesomeness. Then it becomes censoring against the slightest deviation from an utopia where no one can possibly take offense to anything - but this is humanly impossible. No such world exists, nor will it ever. One thing you learn very early from studying human behavior and attitudes is that anyone at anytime will inevitably take offense to anything for any reason. The alternative world, the one I'd rather pursue realizing is the one in which some people are into some things and while not everything will be suitable to their sensibilities, they tolerate that which is not being imposed on them. Porn is not imposed on anyone. It is voluntarily consumed and arguably the most expendable luxury item out there. There are luxury commodities out there like high end vehicles, designer clothes, or fancy wine. And yet all of these luxuries have merited necessity. You may not need the most expensive car, but transportation is virtually essential for living in today's world. You may not need the fanciest designer clothes, but you do need clothing - or at least it belongs with shelter and food as the conventional essential needs. Same with expensive wine. You don't need the choicest vintage libation, but you do need to drink to live. Nobody needs porn to survive. So how hard is it to just let it go unregulated without imposing on people which porn is acceptable and which is not? Just let it go. Getting on a high horse to tell someone their porn is offensive has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments conceivable in the history of our species. Try and imagine the blog of someone who has the gall to impose their sensibilities and moral judgment on others whose taste in porn differs from their own. I'm sure that's a delightful read. Better yet, try and imagine the stream of consciousness of someone who compares race relations today in America to Nazi Germany of the early 1940s. This person must be such fun company. It would be a wonder that anyone from their own claimed demographic should enjoy spending time with them. Everything is sexist. Everything is racist. Everything is offensive. Everyone who disagrees is literally Hitler. Maybe their real goal is not to persuade so much as to engender pity. To that end, maybe they've won, because I do pity that sort of person. Edited by - Melvyn on 5/23/2016 1:50:54 AM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 23 2016 : 2:07AM
^ We've digressed pretty far from the point here, but to be clear when I mentioned that black performers might not want to perform in scenes with hard race play, or rough IR, it had nothing to do with outside perception. I wouldn't want to be involved in a scene like that and I don't give the slightest fuck what anyone else thinks about it. I wouldn't do it because of my own feelings, my own boundaries, my ow hang ups, my own issues. That's why I replied to those that were assuming that the influence must be external. It certainly could be but it absolutely is not the only possibility. I dig that you want this utopian society where we can all express ourselves however we want but the things preventing that are as much internal to every individual as external from people trying to stifle others. You seem insistent on lumping all of the obstacles into one big PC boogieman which is certainly convenient for the purposes of arguing, but not really grounded in reality.
I'm reading this thread with interest. There is another thread here that I won't bump, because it got pretty heated and mods complained when it got bumped last time. It had to do with Porn Fidelity's "Yes, Master" episode of GET MY BELT. An interesting level of outrage, and an equally interesting denial of it being race play specifically about slavery (not sure how it could be about anything else). I already linked to Mollena Williams's blog here--I encourage y'all to read it if you didn't already. I also think Jennifer C. Nash has very interesting things to say about race and porn in her book, The Black Body in Ecstasy. She recovers the pleasures of embodying racialized representations and analyzes race play, race humor, etc in hyper-racialized pornography. The book is excellent, but I do wish she had extended the analysis to more modern stuff.
we the people in order to form a more perfect union... 518 Posts 12/03
Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 2:26AM
well political incorrectness is still alive and well at dogfart. the jail scenes they do always have the black people as the convicts and the whites as the guards.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Jun 3 2016 : 6:35PM
Lots of women have fantasies about being raped by a group of black guys. The problem with the fantasy is that someone invariably throws them a basketball.
It's porn. Porn can be political correct but that's not it's function. Porn is about sex and sexual fantasy and most of the time sexual fantasies aren't PC. If people want to have their porn fantasies depicted they must be open to allow other people's fantasies depicted also. You (not you specifically but people in general) shouldn't have the attitude that my kinky fantasies are okay but those other ones are wrong/bad/offensive/un-PC. I don't see how a person can love seeing a woman be slapped and choked but think it's wrong for a little white girl to yell "Give me that big black cock!" during sex. A middle-aged man trying to bang the neighbor's teenaged daughter isn't less PC than having a black convict bang the white prison guard. In the world of porn the family having incest isn't any worse than the black thugs who bang the white moms of teens that owe them money. I believe that as long as the scene is between consenting adults, no one gets hurt, no laws are being broken, and there's an audience big enough to sustain it...do whatever. I kinda get the girls who say they don't want to do IR scenes that portray black or whites in a certain way but lets be real...it's playing a part. I don't see those roles that much differently than they playing the hot secretary who has sex at work, the girl who cheats on her husband by having gangbangs, the under-aged cheerleader who bangs older creepy guys, or the bored housewife that craves DPs from her husband's friends. I don't look at the women playing those roles as a reflection of who they are so why would I think a girl in an "un-PC" IR scene is actually like that in real life? I think portraying black guys as big penis stereotypes is less harmful overall than showing men manhandle and degrade women.
Yep.Thanks for saying this. It's bizarre that people think these performers show up to set eager to say the N word as if the nature of the scene is a) in their control and b) an accurate reflection of their own sexual desires. That's a massive misunderstanding of media. Meanwhile, as you point out, the dudes involved often get a free pass. I saw a comment here somewhere recently that placed the blame on the women for participating in misogynistic/degrading porn. Not the guys who make it and watch it, but the chicks who get paid to do it. Amazing.
I think that a lot of what contributes to this is the change in how people consume adult material. I can't say for sure how people in the 70s reacted, since I was born in the mid-70s, but then adult material was either in a magazine as a photo set or flickering on a screen, either through a projector at home or in a theater. As the adult industry grew, features were the norm. I think it was recognized that the adult actresses were playing parts, just as it is recognized that mainstream actors and actresses are playing parts. As the 80s hit, adult material consumption changed to a more private experience at home. Photo sets in magazines still existed, adult material was being produced for VHS but often still held to the feature concept although the quality of the story being told fell. There were magazines such as Penthouse Forum, that published letters but those were commonly believed to be fake. Then came the rise of the internet. Again adult material consumption changed. The magazines started falling out of favor and many adult material production companies started dropping the plots going to all sex scenes. As social media grew, adult actresses started going to social media creating accounts for their adult personas. Now there is an issue where the adult persona along with what happens in the all sex scenes are seen as real life. People lose the perception of the actress and sees the persona as real life. You see it here, you see it on Twitter, you could see it on my college campus. This perception problem isn't just within the adult industry, the rise of social media has caused people to be depressed when they see other friends Facebook profiles because they see the happy parts, not the sad ones, and gain unrealistic desires for their own lives. No I can't link you to the studies since I lost my EBSCO usage rights a year ago.
Is anyone watching UnReal on TV? The 2nd season just kicked off a few nights ago. I am not much for TV, especially not reality TV dating shows like "The Bachelor." In its countless seasons I haven't watched 1 whole episode of that crap. But I did find the premise of this "UnReal" show potentially interesting because it addresses IR. It's a dramedy/satire about a fictional show pretty much based on The Bachelor. It follows the show-runners, a pair of pretty sexy producers, who take the reigns and are responsible for directing the contrived mayhem. I remember reading some article a couple years ago about The Bachelor and the controversy over the show having never featured a black bachelor. It's been on the air over a dozen seasons, so I think it's a fair criticism. Far be it from me to advocate for superficial quotas, but seriously? Over 10 years and not 1 black bachelor? What gives? So season 2 of "UnReal" is based on them introducing the "historic" first black bachelor. I just watched the season premiere. It's not half bad. There's some decent dialogue in it, if you can stomach catty banter which typifies 90% of mainstream televised entertainment these days. They seem to aim to build up a confrontation between a confederate flag patterned bikini-wearing Southern belle with a Black Lives Matter female in the show. Nobody has been killed or seriously injured (this season) so far but it has a tinge of black humor to it. God help me, I'm enjoying Hallmark Channel programming.
I actually watched the show and I found it entertaining, GOD help me if you would have told me that I would be watching a show on Lifetime and enjoying it I would have told you to get the fuck out. The idea of the show featuring IR in a Bachelor type reality show did draw me in because like Melvyn pointed out the Bachelor has been in 10+ years and has had I think 20 or 21 season and they have never featured a black bachelor. As to why that is I would say it is ABC/Disney and the audience is largely white and I would assume older and the idea of seeing a Black bachelor possible romancing a white woman on national tv is still uncomfortable to their core audience. This show though says for all that discomfort and anger people still would not be able to look away. The two female leads pretty much said so in some of the line delivered throughout the episode. Like when the network head was on the phone with the show's producer and she says "The minute he lays black hands on a white ass, Twitter will melt down" or when Quinn proclaimed "Oh please, he’s going to be making deep, dark, nasty love to them, too!" I admit though the best line to me though was "he's not black, he's football black." Porn has shown that maybe this show is right for all the people that say that they don't want to see it there are even more that do and would not be looking away. Ill keep watching because I would like to see how this will all play out.
Playing devil's advocate, I'm torn on judging that show. But first off anything I say about it must be taken with a grain of salt, because as I admitted, I haven't seen 1 episode of it. So even if I complained about it, why should they care? It's not like I'm going to watch anyway. Actually, if they finally did do one with a black bachelor, I would watch just because. Now that's something that would get my view. But I have to wonder how many others are in my boat, potential viewers who have basically been holdouts thus far. Obviously the #1 concern producers have is ratings. And the goal is to always grow viewership. I don't know what the ratings history for the show has been like. I honestly could not say with any confidence whether a black bachelor would help their show's ratings at this point or not. In my amateur passersby opinion, my initial instinct is to say after 20 seasons, why the hell not just as an experiment? It couldn't possibly alienate so many viewers that they would have to end up canceling the show. Who are they really competing with? Is there any other similar show competing with them? They seem to be the only one in town. It's practically a monopolized institution. But maybe there are other similar shows and I'm just ignorant. Still, worst case scenario is they reach a series low in ratings, and then the very next season, which would only be a few months later given how fast they produce it, they can go right back to vanilla. I'm sure whoever they lost after 20 seasons when the black bachelor showed up would be right back. Problem is, I think they just painted themselves into a corner by being so myopic for so long. By going 20 seasons without any black bachelor, and just a couple non-white ones, that's basically what their audience comes to expect. So they are almost compelled to cater to that. This is the argument I've made about Brazzers. I don't look at their brand and feel angry or spiteful on account of lack of diversity (really I'm just wanting IR), because I don't think they are skewed on account of racism or hatred. I think they are just stuck in a formula, a vanilla whitebread formula. Deviating from that means jeopardy. Even if the producers have long wanted to, and don't think they haven't considered it, the problem is by now their market research must show for their particular audience it would only hurt them. So for me, as a non-audience member, it would have to be seen as undue entitlement to demand they finally let a brother on. I'm just saying what's the worst that could happen? They can always bounce back if the ratings took a hit. And it WILL get people talking about the show, even if the ones making the most noise are the vocal protestors. But any extra publicity for a show that's so long in the tooth could only help them. They would get some new viewers. And I would still venture to say most of their audience would not have a problem. So there's no way it could be a total failure. It just seems incredibly stubborn at this point. So after skimming over the shows ratings just now, their highest rated season was either season 3 or 2 which had a finale scoring about 25 million viewers. 17 seasons later, their finale got about 10 million. So after all that time their ratings are less than half of what they used to be. So what do they have to lose? Anyhow, with speculation about whether they will finally cancel the show or if will be renewed, it might not even be worth fighting for at this point. My fear would be they finally greenlight a black bachelor, but the show was already on a course for a series low-rated season as more and more audience members have been tuning out over the years, and then they blame it on the brotha, like blaming everything on Obama. Well if nothing else good comes from The Bachelor, at least we have a decent satire in UnReal. To tie things in with our bread and butter here, there was a line in the latest episode by one of the lead characters as she was nixing one of the female contestant's outfits on account of her tattoo. "Tattoos are not wifey material" - it reminded me of Greg Lansky's anti-tattoo attitude. Groan! Edited by - Melvyn on 6/10/2016 7:17:34 AM
Is anyone else watching "UnReal" this season? 2nd episode was a couple nights ago. Really enjoying this.
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BlackonBlackplease Deactivated User
17 Posts 2/14
Posted - Jun 23 2016 : 1:54PM
while im not a big fan of IR, I do like the fact that series like Blacked are taking a different approach. Personally, i never cared for stereotypical IR stuff cuz i dont relate to it, some of it was more offensive than boner inducing.
In fact I dunno know what's meant by PC and I just happened to read about everything listed up above, but I do know that I'm kinda old school regarding IR with a preference towards seeing Rico Strong and Lexington Steele and Kid Jamaica and Wesley Pipes and such bad asses in action, and not so much muscled slim fits coming out of the gym-alikes dressed up as if they're working in the upper class community coming out of BLACKED these days. It's just too much of a roleplay to me. And I hate roleplay! Hated it from second grade in school being eight years old. Acting without no skills. And no real connection to the material at stake at all! I may believe in Jesus back then but I wasn't much of a disciple. On the other hand I'm not so much into organized ghetto crime lookalike guys from crazy parts of L.A. doing them Gangbang My Little White Thang things on DVDs, either, even though I kinda love old shit like Orgy World and some shit from West Coast Productions, too. I guess the sense of humour kinda chips in. Ghetto guys look kinda desillusioned. There's not a grain of humour involved. In BLACKED there's not any spontanity at all. Just you do this and all follow the script. The guys looks kinda bored, like if this is just another day working some pussy. How is that even possible? I prefer the partyfeeling and the hey ho let's go of those other fellows over in Orgy World. They statued something best being captured in Orgy Masters these days. People having fun and not acting like they have to do as they're being told. Edited by - Dragon Sign on 9/17/2016 12:17:32 PM Edited by - Dragon Sign on 9/17/2016 3:45:48 PM Edited by - Dragon Sign on 9/17/2016 3:46:23 PM
Lex Steele and his wife Savana Styles have just released on their Clips4Sale studio a home invasion scene they made in which Lex's character breaks into Savana's home and violates her at gunpoint. I'm sure they had a lot of fun making this scene, and this really proves my point that I have been contending from the beginning of this topic. There are plenty of black talent out there who have no qualms with very controversial and provocative themes which mainstream corporate interests insist is "too offensive" these days. The whole paradigm has been turned on its head, the script totally flipped, so much now to the point it's purely ironic. The P.C. police want to object to "offensive" portrayals in porn, presumably the machinations of racist white CEO's who run the big porn companies. In actuality the most supposedly "offensive" stuff out there is actually the fantasy of black talent involved. How many more examples need to be provided? Jake Steed, a prominent black performer/director had full creative control over his popular series "Little White Chicks... Big Black Monster Dicks" - a series which was very over the top, including kidnapping scenes where gangs of black guys grabbed innocent white girls off the playground. This series was very popular and successful enough to run almost 20 movies. It enjoyed great sales and reviews among black and white audiences alike. HushHush was rife with N-bombs tossed around and encouraged by the black male talent. Check out the rising popularity of DickDrainers, creatively controlled by a talented black director/performer. He doesn't shy away from provocative race themes. Alexander DeVoe, another popular black director who had an accomplished career in the biz, experimented with scenes where the black male talent such as Rico Strong are dominant and aggressive, including kidnapping scenes. The great irony today is that the paradigm is not, and has not ever been to my knowledge, racist white CEO's pushing racist offensive portrayals to degrade blacks. If there's anything "offensive" that's been coming out of the porn industry with regards to portrayals of black males, it has been almost entirely owned operated directed or creatively controlled by the black male talent in the industry. If anything, the white CEO's running the big companies in the biz are the ones most likely responsible for diluting and sanitizing the edgy and provocative themes portrayed in black or interracial porn. I think they are all scared of backlash. But why? People actually want to see rough and rowdy racy stuff. Black white Hispanic Asian etc. It's what united all of them. All groups have significant proportions who enjoy wild fantasies. That's what makes it fantasy! Give the people what they want!
I think in the past Black porn makers probably made the type of porn you're talking about because that was a niche in porn they could sell. If/when they tried doing straight up porn without any kinks/fetishes involved they'd almost always lose going against the white porn producers who had a bigger audience and bigger budgets to make a slicker better looking and packaged product. So they turned to making stuff that those other companies wouldn't give the audience and appealed enough of an audience to make it profitable. Today, we live in more PC times and also a time because of social media more people can make whatever thoughts in their heads heard. So that means that more people are complaining about things they don't like being made. In a sensible world people would simply ignore what they don't like if it isn't hurting them or anyone else but we don't live in a sensible world...we're stuck here. I kinda get what makes upset by the un-PC type porn and if it were being done in almost any other type of media I'd be on their side. But role-playing done and seen only by adults (hopefully) isn't supposed to be or has to be PC. If the players are okay making this type of porn and aren't getting hurt in any way by it and it's only being seen by reasonably sane adults and there's enough of a market for it...I think the porn makers and players should be allowed to produce it. Much of porn isn't PC and it's always strange and interesting reading comments here where so many people pick and choose aspects of un-PC porn to complain about but are perfectly okay with other un-PC aspects. Saying the "N" word is horrible and needs to stop but slapping a woman is a great thing. A white girl having sex with a guy portraying a "thug" is unacceptable but an a dirty old man molesting a women portraying "teen" is fine. A girl scream "gimme that big dick!" is encouraged but mention that big dick is black and suddenly it's a racial thing. It's all un-PC and twisted, I don't get why so many people think their fetishes are okay and the ones they don't like aren't. On the flip-side....from the people producing porn aspect....who needs the headache...why bother? If they're going to get grief for making that type of porn it may not be worth their time. Most of that stuff is niche porn anyway. If the sales aren't that big it's easier to just stop making it. It would be hard to tell based on the people who are on this site but the vast majority of porn watchers aren't really into that type of porn. Most porn watchers just want to see straight forward sex between a man and a good-looking woman. People's preferences and attitudes about race and the treatment of women have changed over the past years and that's reflected in porn (and most every other media). Less and less people are into that stuff.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Oct 29 2016 : 4:40PM
People like to say that today is 'more PC' but in fact social acceptance of pornography, the rights of sex workers and BDSM are probably higher than they've ever been. There are definite efforts to roll that back on the left and right currently. I guess it depends on one's defintion of 'PC.'
Melvyn, I think you may be confusing the kind of porn say, Jake Steed, wanted to make with the only kind of porn that he could make that would sell. Do you remember the "white", almost nerdy Jake Steed from the Dirty Debutantes days that didn't make much of a splash despite being well endowed for it, before he discovered that his role was making thug porn? It's amazing how he transformed.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 29 2016 : 5:39PM
^^^I don't think that we have much to go on when we speculate about the size of the market for hard raceplay. Furthermore we should be careful to not isolate the profitability of that subgenre from other factors such as casting, production quality, membership/dvd affordability, the effect of piracy, etc. It's notable that we still see raceplay played up in a lot of IR dvd titles (Black Cocks Matter? Monster Dick, Little White Bitch?), regardless of the actual content of the scene. The same thing often happens with scene synopses. It seems that studios still view the lure of raceplay as effective on consumers.
I'd like to put another angle to the topic. All complains about IR becoming too PC have to consider a cultural aspect , there are more mixed couples than ever , the acceptance of interracial couples has never been this high, it's not even to be considered uncommon today. Sothere was a time where people thought that if a white girl was to have sex with a black man then there was some kind of violence, and that's why so many IR porn depicted convicted, gangs , demons , monsters and so even the BDSM aspect of it was kinda racist , a man umiliated by a white man was just humiliated but if it was a black one then he was humiliated even more , same thing for some IR porn a white girl trashed by black men was trashed even harder. If the trend is changing into more regular, IR scenes with passionate or lusty sex between a black man and a white woman shows how the average view over IR porn has changed ,even those who liked vanilla are now whatching IR and IR is filling the demand for less racially focused porn
lol Are you really gonna try and deny that Jake Steed and co. were not having fun making that Little White Chicks series? REALLY? They were have a blast. Even Lex had fun in those movies. They would even break character and just laugh during scenes. The thing was, they didn't take it overly serious all the time. They understood it's ok to have fun making porn. That's the biggest fuckin problem with not just porn (which is absurd yet true how people take it so damn serious and sensitive) but just our culture in general. People get way too touchy about everything, and if someone so much as perceives a potential infinitesimal insinuation of a slight, they jump all over it on social media and blow things out of proportion. That's been the real ugly side of social media, one which I think is actually going to prove to be a fad that people have grown sick of. I already think most people are already over the constant fake outrage brigade. Look at how Twitter is declining. People are just fed up with constant outrage and political posturing. All those indignant tweets trying to "expose" someone. It's turned ordinary people into mud slinging politicians. But like I'm saying, I feel like the wind is changing and all that phony bologna social justice warrior crap is falling flat. People are finally catching on to how sanctimonious it is.
BTW I can't really speak to Jake Steed's career prior to 2000. If he had a totally different persona, under whose direction was that? When somebody starts their own studio and goes into what Jakes Steed did with his popular LWGBBMD series, that strikes me as a passion project. I reject the idea that he felt the only way to succeed was to fulfill a thug stereotype. Why does it always have to be perceived as taking an L or being a minstrel? Why can't it be what he genuinely wanted to do? Is it impossible that he wanted to play a thug? Lord knows how much rappers aspired to be perceived that way throughout the 90s to today. How many songs do rappers or even RnB singers fashion themselves as self aggrandized pimp thugs? Let's not act like this is offensive to them. Surely something may be offensive to some but not to all. It's nothing unique to black artists or performers either. How many white metal band singers/musicians expressed themselves as savages and maniacs? Countless. How many white actors leapt at the opportunity to play gangsters? No one ever said black guys are the only ones who like to be lowdown or dirty. No one ever said this is what they must be relegated to. Being the so-called bad boy has been popular since forever. Done been over this a thousand times, pretty sure many times in this thread too. I would say you could take it back to Elvis and the Jailhouse Rock hit. But that was only novel for being televised live music resonating with youth. But you could go back decades before that with movies about gangsters, all them Jimmy Cagney movies. Countless other movies glamorizing gangsters and thugs. And take it back further, you had all those nickel pulp novels about outlaws like Jesse James. Violent murderous outlaws. That was always popular. And even way before that they popular stories about pirates. I'm sure the theme goes back as far as the first stories told. Jake Steed wasn't relegated to only being able to express himself one way, with only one vision. That was just the one he enjoyed most at that time. Maybe he was bored with the vanilla shit by mainstream white companies. I refuse to throw him under the bus the way some self-righteous cats like that TastyGirls dude earlier in this thread was doing. He was vicariously denying on behalf of Jake Steed any accountability whatsoever like his own life depended on it, like Judas denying Jesus. Straight up Jake balled and lived it up in his heyday, putting out funky classics audiences of various backgrounds enjoyed for multiple reasons. Nothing wrong with that at all. There's no shame in that. Case in point, Lex is arguably the most successful active black male talent in the game - I would say arguably the most successful male in porn history. Does he HAVE to make rape scenes on clips4sale to feed himself? Hell naw! He's doin that with Savana for fun, and thank god for that! Finally somebody not afraid to make wild fantasy type porn. This is what we need more of. I mean personally forced sex scenarios is not my thing, but I'm just glad it shows that at least some people don't have to be afraid to unleash their inner freaks. I have no doubt Savana loved the scenario too. And this young blood running the DickDrainers show. He is proving you don't have to be scared of taboo themes. He said himself he welcomed doing various scenarios with fucking a confederate flag wearing bitch or spouting N-bombs. He's a smart guy and knows he doesn't have to do that, and as with really anything you ever create, it won't be for everyone. You can't make 100% of people happy 100% of the time. Just not possible. But if you're smart you may find a way to cater to various under-served niches and you will be appreciated for it.
I'm totally happy about IR becoming more mainstream because it means as it becomes more popular, obviously higher demand justifies greater production. I am not interested in dictating the tone or treatment of any type of genre of porn. That's my point though. I don't like how the mainstream tends to have such a dictatorial influence on tone and treatment. So while Blacked is fine if you want the more sanitized version, I know damn well a lot of people much prefer more intense and provocative themes. They are now being ignored. I like all types. I like arty type of porn like Hegre-Art, which is all about sensual and highly polished photography which you would see in a fashion magazine if one such existed featuring no clothes! I like femdom type of porn where the guy is bound and a hot bitch adminsters CBT. I like gonzo style no-pretense, off the cuff fucking. I like glamorous scripted scenarios like you see in Lansky's work. I also like kinky "outrageous" type of porno romps like Jake Steed and old HushHush used to make. Those are what is missing these days. Everything else is represented in abundance. The freaky kinky provocative politically-incorrect typa twisted fantasy porn is sorely lacking nowadays. So all I'm saying is finally it's good to see some creators out there getting back to it. Reminding folk this is just sex fantasy. It's not the lectern at your high school graduation. You damn well should be able to say whatever you want, and pretty much do whatever you want so long as it involved consenting adults. Can I get an amen?!
Astutely observed. I actually think this is one area where modern porn is actually more provocative. I'll be honest and say some are kind of shockingly titled, moreso than as far back as I've minded porn (circa 1999). The titles and captions are definitely still pressing those buttons, so those buttons must damn well still resonate with consumers. It's the actual content inside the movies which is more tame and sanitized. Typically these days a IR flick can have a provocative title, but virtually zero actual racial acknowledgement in the scenes, let alone raceplay.
Perhaps this goes back to the point you make in the beginning of your comments. There are more interracial couples than ever so perhaps that means more people want to see less of the stereotypical type IR porn and more of the porn where it's just a BM/WF sex without the stereotypical themes. Remember, the stereotypical IR porn that has "thugs" and "monster" sized guys destroying poor little white girls is a fetish. For that fetish to work the people into it need to see or think of black men in a particular light. As time goes on and we see black men being accepted more and more as just people and more people being exposed to them in that manner the "thug" fetish becomes harder to maintain. It's harder to think of black men as big tough giant penis brutes that are out to ravish white women when you know the goofy little black guy from work or down the street or seeing black men in tv/movies in less stereotypical aspects. The thug/monster/giant penis black man ravishing the poor little white girl is more or less a white guy fetish. Perhaps we're seeing a combination of more people being more PC and not wanting to watch that type of porn anymore, more black consumers buying porn and not having an interest in that type of porn, more opportunities available for performers to choose from so they choose to shoot less of that stuff, and a bigger variety of porn available so consumers don't have to buy that type of porn. I own/watch a bunch of cuckold, thug, monster, etc., IR porn because if I want to see certain performers that's what I had to buy to watch them. Not because I'm into all that stuff. When I have other/better options I sometimes buy other stuff with the performers I like performing IR. What I think is happening now is with more porn studios trying to follow the success of BLACKED and doing IR porn without such strong stereotypical negativities consumers have more options and don't have to put up with the type of IR they had to before to watch IR sex and non-IR fans are more open to watching that type of IR porn without the negative/strange premise themed plot. So because many more people don't have those fetishes than do have them IR porn without the stereotypical themes will do better and thus the companies that do that type of stereotypical porn will probably do less of it as they see how well other companies do with more straightforward IR porn. It's just like years ago when the BLACKZILLA phase of IR porn was hot and more companies shifted to try and copy their success. Nowadays, the IR climate shows consumers want less of that type of stuff.
Having fun on the set doesn't automatically mean they were totally into the themes they were portraying. Yeah, Jake might've had fun making porn and hanging out with friends but I can't believe he was into showing himself and black men in such a negative light. Would you or anyone enjoy playing a stupid stereotype on screen? Probably not. I've read old interviews with Jake Steed and he wasn't happy with the way porn portrayed blacks. But he was in porn and did what he had to to make a living. If that's what sold back then I could see him going along with it because he had to but really who would be happy playing the types of roles he played back then? No Hollywood or stage actor would be happy playing that.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 30 2016 : 12:11PM
^^Blacked differentiated itself from other pre-Blacked IR sites in many more ways than just their approach to raceplay. I wrote earlier that "we should be careful to not isolate the profitability of that subgenre from other factors such as casting, production quality, membership/dvd affordability, the effect of piracy, etc." I was writing about hard raceplay, but what I wrote is also relevant to Blacked. There are not and have never been hard raceplay sites that resemble Blacked. Where does that leave us? If we're going to compare Blacked to a site like Dogfart we're going to see a lot more differences than just softer vs. harder raceplay. Edited by - misspornUSA on 10/30/2016 12:13:50 PM
Pehaps I'm repeating myself , of course I have no problem with the fetish , I was just trying to find a reason about why IR is becoming "too PC" , basically its viewers are differianting so productors and directors differentiate as well in order to match a growing demand. For the remaining part I completely agree with youJake Steed actually kinda avoided this.If I recall well that series the black men depicted were possessed by demons or something thus they weren't actually the black men exploiting the poor girl, they were all "victims" even though in the end everybody had fun. His scenes with Tabitha were completely different not just because they were a real life couple back then , they were differently paced and a lot more passionate even during hard anal sex Edited by - LCF on 10/30/2016 1:17:47 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 30 2016 : 1:32PM
I don't look at dvd sales very often, but when I do one thing I notice that top sellers seem to share in common are high production values. Theme and content vary, but production quality is usually pretty consistent in the top 10. I don't want to make too much out of that because there are other factors to consider. Who even knows how much a porn consumer who buys her porn on dvd has in common with a consumer who prefers memberships. Still, it's something I want to throw out there for the sake of this discussion. We have never seen a hard raceplay site that looked like Blacked. That's worth keeping in mind.
, of course I have no problem with the fetish , I was just trying to find a reason about why IR is becoming "too PC" , basically its viewers are differianting so productors and directors differentiate as well in order to match a growing demand. For the remaining part I completely agree with youJake Steed actually kinda avoided this.If I recall well that series the black men depicted were possessed by demons or something thus they weren't actually the black men exploiting the poor girl, they were all "victims" even though in the end everybody had fun.