I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 11 2016 : 9:26PM
Ashley Fires' response to a question from Captain Jack in his recent interview with her is perhaps relevant to this discussion:There are several things here that I find very strange. Ashley says of the movie's IR gangbang "That was the best scene on the disk because I got all of the black dick. I was on black dick island with 5 giant black dicks." However, she also implies that it is racist to say "big black cock." Not criticizing, but I don't get it at all. She says of the movie that "I didn’t want it to be about race", yet she is very cognizant throughout the interview of the fact that she touched black penis for the first time, that she had sex with black guys for the first time, that black guys are of a different race and even that they fucked her differently than guys of other races do, etc. Why is it okay to acknowledge all of those things in the interview yet wrong to depict it onscreen? Again, I don't get it. Ashley mentions that she didn't say "big black cock in my little white hole" in her scenes and that she didn't want the movie to be about "defiling the little white girl." The implication is that that would have been racist. Yet, there is plenty of non-IR content produced with similar themes (big men defiling innocent girls), especially if the pornstar is a teen (or marketed as one) or a spinner. I wonder if Ashley sees those scenes as problematic. Ashley mentions her male "slaves" and "sissies." I wonder what kind of language is used in her sessions with them. Is submissive and dominant language okay when it's gender based, but bad, bad, bad when it is also about race? I don't understand the cuckolding issue at all. Why is cuckolding good and moral, but IR cuckolding beyond the pale? She has a right to her opinion (if that is indeed her opinion), but I'm really confused. Ashley implies that raceplay perpetuates bigotry. Does only IR perpetuate a way of thinking about people, or does porn in general do so? If the latter, then what values do other scenes perpetuate? Is Ashley worried that her past scenes may lead people to believe that it's acceptable to have sex with their partner's son or friend's husband? Should porn drop those scenarios? Does Ashley want gender stereotypes dropped too, or are only racial stereotypes unacceptable? Ultimately, I'm left wondering how a domme can be so comfortable calling for porn to eliminate a safe form of roleplay. Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/11/2016 9:29:35 PM
^ Excellent points. I totally agree with those who admit that the answer to the topic is an indisputable yes. The more important questions then become why, and should it be? I think the answer to why is because producers are becoming more accountable with the rise of social media. It should be liberating, and in many ways it is. But it's also making people more self-conscious. Could you imagine if Jake Steed's "Monsters" series was being produced nowadays and he was on Twitter? I bet a lot of white knight SJW's would bitch about that, but you know what? Fuck their feelings. If they don't like it, they don't have to watch. They can vote with their dollars. It looked to me like all parties involved had a lot of fun making those movies, including Lex. And you know who else I respect is Shane Diesel who along with Boz and Richard Mann and other blame male performers partied hard during the HushHush days, savoring with great relish the moments when they could goad a young girl into calling them the n-word. For them it's like a cowgirl driving her spurs into a bucking bronco. And Hudson Hawk made a perfect point about the double standards of charged language. We accept "bitch" and "cunt" and countless other sexist, or let's say sexually charged, terms and we don't even bat an eye. Now the moral of the story is not that we should start finding everything offensive and continue to shun provocative language or expressions or fantasies. The moral should be we ought to be more tolerant. Just like PC kills comedy, it can also kill adult fantasy. Fuck PC. Fuck propriety. As long as all the participating parties involved are approving and consenting, then we should be thrilled to have more extreme behavior and expressions. That's why I miss HushHush. They gave no fucks about political correctness. I totally get the push for a "classier" style of IR, and I dig what Blacked has done. But I don't love it if it comes at the cost of the exclusion of less "sensitive" content. I get the feeling that nowadays producers are too timid and worried about pushing buttons. No one wants to rock the boat. But how the hell do you expect to deliver a proper fuck with no rhythm? Yeah it's great IR is portraying the black males as successful and higher classed more often, instead of just the same cookie-cutter "ne'er-do-well" as the hoity-toity types call them. I'm all for that. But don't forget about the thugs! IT AIN'T NO FUN IF THE HOMEYS CAN'T HAVE NONE IT AIN'T NO FUN IF THE HOMEYS CAN'T HAVE NONE IT AIN'T NO FUN IF THE HOMEYS CAN'T HAVE NONE Edited by - Melvyn on 3/11/2016 10:24:03 PM Edited by - Melvyn on 3/11/2016 10:25:06 PM
Sorry I know you dont like that term "SJW" Missporn, but the shoe fits in the case of fake outrages. There's good causes to do battle for, but policing porn and fantasies is not one, and I know there are white knights who would love to assume authority in this domain, saying what is and what is not acceptable.
The fact that Ashley says she had to be "mindful not to say ‘big black cock’ " is such a fucking letdown. The pendulum has swung way too far toward over-protectiveness. Blacked is still pretty damn tame compared to the wild boy days of Jake Steed and his Black Monsters and Little White Slave girls series, but even Blacked can prove that you can have girls say "OMG I love your big black cock" in almost every scene, and it's still high class. Like I say, PC is the death of comedy and fantasy. And I'm not campaigning to have girls drop the N-bomb in every IR joint all the time. But I absolutely will fight for the right to have it on the table if a given producer or performer wants it in there. As long as it's alright with all the available talent, and I think many in the industry find this issue laughable how anxious and uptight it makes some PC police. Shane Diesel is cool with it. Same with Boz and Richard Mann and others. Just run it by them first, and you're good to go. I think Lex has his own position against it, which is cool too. I respect different opinions on it. But it feels almost like a chilling effect has taken place in porn. I hope that melts off soon.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 11 2016 : 11:19PM
^What kinda leaves me dumbfounded is that it's in clear in the interview that Ashley was into the fact that she took black cock specifically. That's in line with the tweets she's made since filming, in which she's written things like "Mmmm so much BBC." Some pornstars in promoting/discussing their "first IR" will completely downplay the racial aspects, yet Ashley doesn't do that at all in her interview except for that one excerpt. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/11/2016 11:19:49 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 11 2016 : 11:29PM
To think, I was playing this on my walkman rapping along to it everyday, multiple times a day, as a 13 year old girl. I can only imagine what my dad thought.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 12:22AM
Yeah, all I want is for the industry to have a space in which performers who are open to some of the harder elements of raceplay can explore that on camera, as is the case with other kinks and fetishes.
You might have to wait until the industry is stronger. Risk aversion and appealing to the broadest audience makes sense when business is poor. Add to that following the hottest trend, and you get the current state of IR porn. Edited by - joey numbers on 3/12/2016 2:17:01 AM
Pretty much. We might get to the point where you have to go to the Clips4Sale level to get hard raceplay (I believe Richard Mann is there right now and doing decently well, but he's also shooting very low profile actresses), but I don't think it'll ever go away. The trend is high end, and as long as that's the case, people are going to be chasing that money. And to be honest, as someone who doesn't even like raceplay, I'd be interested to see the reaction to a site that has the raceplay of past BOB combined with the actual technical quality of a higher end studio. Like, I'm not sure the market is there for it, but it'd still be interesting to see how it would play out.
I was listening to "golden oldies" from the 50s and 60s back in '94. It's all my folks would let us listen to. My folks actually had albums, vinyl records, of artists like Elton John and Fleetwood Mac, but they would never play them. They figured even those would have been too inappropriate. smh
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 1:20AM
BM/WF IR is already at the point you described. I'd also like to see how a site built around traditional raceplay except with high production values would be received.
^^ That's better than me. I was listening to Michael Jackson (fine) and Shaq (what?!), and that was by choice. My dad had much better music for me to listen to, and he didn't care about content (he had the original Appetite for Destruction vinyl cover hanging in his room, to demonstrate what I mean). Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 3/12/2016 1:21:40 AM
I think it's a mistake to frame the demand for content with harder race play as a new front in some kind of war against "Politically Correct SJW's" (gagged in my mouth typing that.) misspornusa's earlier point sounded much more reasonable to me:Making the push for strong race play IR into a quasi-politcal issue will just polarize people. I'm fine with other people wanting to consume fantasy scenarios, even if I find the scenarios a little distasteful (missporn's example of Sex and Submission was pretty on point.) But when I hear terms like "SJW, "white knight," and "PC" I get icked out and start drawing associations with some pretty loathsome groups on the internet. I'm probably not alone on that. Keeping the issue apolitical seems like the smartest move to me. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 3/12/2016 1:26:02 AM
I think she meant she didn't want to feed the aspects she said by perpetuating the racial polarization on film which ultimately is what will spread all aver and be remembered , very few will read her interviews and certainly not the occasional viewer. Basically she say she didn't want to propagate the notion that a black man is just a dick you can use and throuw away, nor white girls are bottomless holes craving to be filled by black dicks, might be a fantasy for the viewer but she won't portray this view, to her the only role she will portray is a woman who fucks a man who happens to be black. Could also be relevant to this thread a tweet from Kagney Lee Karter placed around Xmas holidays which sounded like "I don't call it BBC I call him love" However a black member of this board pointed out that the very notion that their black skin being a plus instead of the minus it has been over the years is refreshing and arousing and that to avoid even to mention that the man is black is kinda racist as if it was a thing to hide. I think there are some changes on the IR scenarios and they are still trying to adjust. The first performer who felt increasingly uncomfortable with the race playing as it was was Zoe Voss , she starded hard on IR , her very first scene might have been IR (with Shorty Mac) at one point she stopped and said she didn't like such portrayal and that she didn't like to see her race played against her so she wouldn't perform IR any longer. Though she did perform two other IR scenes after this statement none of them with racial play , one with Mickey Mod (very passionate lots of kissing can't remember the movie right now but it's material for another thread) under Nica Noelle as director for Sweet Sinners and another with Nick Fury/Lexington Steele where che was portraying The Wasp in a Parody for Hustler , another hot scene. So she was true with herself she still had no problem with IR but had a lot of issues with the way it was portrayed. it's not the only one , but I'm not putting names to feed the obsessed Hellhounds of the IR Brigade , Zoe is long gone the others aren't.
The last I bought was Black Bull for Hire 3 and was all kisses especially his scene with Valentina Nappi who I believe went beyond requests on this , not a single time he was called "nigger" and he is/was one of those who liked it , asked for that.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 3:59AM
I think Ashley Fires was simply speaking about what she is comfortable with as a performer. I don't see any contradiction between being into dom/sub and not being into raceplay. There are lots of degrees and lines people have and are not comfortable crossing including underage or Nazis/Jew scenarios. That doesn't make someone hypocritical.
I see nothing strange unless you're trying to find it. Ashley wanted to make a particular type of movie. She didn't want the movie to be all about race but reality is she made a movie that's about race. That's not a good or bad thing. She didn't want the movie to be heavy on certain porn stereotypes we've seen played up before. But when talking about that movie you have to acknowledge the fact that it was a movie made with black men with big penises. So yeah, in the movie the big black dick thing was downplayed but when talking about making the movie why is it wrong to acknowledge that she had sex with black guys for the first time, that the guys had big packages, or whatever. When she says she didn't want the movie to make a big deal about race or certain stereotypes it doesn't mean making the movie wasn't about race for her personally or that she shouldn't acknowledge she was with big black guys making the movie. She made the type of movie she wanted that depicted or didn't depict certain things and then she talking about making the movie where certain things happened or were experienced. Two completely different things.Maybe she, like other people only has a problem with it when it involves playing up race. And if she feels that way there's nothing wrong with it but clearly she didn't want it in this movie. Perhaps she has no problem with those things or maybe she does...but she didn't want it in this movie.Isn't that type of sex all about what the players involved want? So if they don't want it to be about race whatever or type of name calling it's "bad" but if they want it to be about race or whatever ..it's fine and encouraged.Did she actually say there's something wrong with IR cuckolding or was she stating she didn't want it in her movie that she specifically wanted to downplay certain IR stereotypes and things that she didn't want included? Movie: made to downplay certain things she didn't want to see on screen. Reality: She may not have a problem with things some people do in real life.?!
I don't think missporn is saying that if you're into one you need to be into the other. It's just perplexing that someone can maintain that the gendered insults that are commonplace in male dominant scenarios (slut, bitch, whore), are just harmless roleplay and not indicative of genuine misogyny on the part of the performers/content producers, yet turn around and cast moral judgement on hard raceplay scenarios. It seems to me if you are willing to countenance the idea that the latter is genuinely harmful and shouldn't be perpetuated, you have to feel the same about the former. Provided of course you're in favor of both racial and gender equality.
^ In dominant scenarios it could be either way , there are women topping males , so male dominant scenarios are only one side of the picture whereas in race play scenarios there's one race dominating the other and often one gender depicted very poorly. Also there are those who are not comfortable with racial role play.
^ There are always people who are uncomfortable with roleplay scenarios. I for one am uncomfortable with a lot of the rape type of scenarios found on Kink.com. But I don't think the performers in those scenes are actual rapists or desire to be raped in real life. And fem-dom scenarios could be argued to perpetuate misandry, so the argument still holds. Why is one type of roleplay just a fantasy that doesn't reflect on the actual beliefs of the participants or viewers, yet the other is and shoud be condemned?
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 1:53PM
^ I didn't see any condemning in what Ashley said she just expressed what she didn't want her scene to be about. If Lansky makes a scene that doesn't have raceplay is he condemning those that do? A distaste for stereotypes can also just be a distaste for cliche. I don't care for the schoolgirl scenerios because they are played out, not because they offend me. Edited by - BlackSix on 3/12/2016 1:55:20 PM
^ Sorry, misunderstanding. I wasn't speaking specifically about Ashley in particular, just the way raceplay is generally singled out compared to other forms of roleplay that could be similarly held up as problematic.. Good point about the cliched nature of raceplay. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 3/12/2016 1:57:39 PM
Mr F, let me explain again, I'm not interested in a site in which their whole unique selling point is tossing around the N word and being offensive just for the sake of opposing PC sensitivity. At the core, a site is only going to be good as the quality of the content. I just feel strongly that things should not be off the table, and it seems to be the case these days that the overall tone of not just IR but porn in generally is milder than it was 10 years ago. I'm sure a lot of people feel that is for the best because it suits them. Seems more like an argument of convenience. I am not arguing for convenience, or for what caters to me specifically. As I said before and will reiterate here, I would not be interested in a site that pushes a formula of using the N word with every scenario. In fact, I could take or leave it. Using that language doesn't make a scene for me. In fact, if I was to list my top 10 scenes, none of them would use it. Maybe not even the top 20. Remember not long ago when Dogfart was having their female performers hold signs up that said "I fucked a (n-word)"? Only they didn't censor it like I'm doing here. They actually thought this was a hot way to market their product. To me that was just lame on their part. I personally did not find that appealing to my taste. To say it is distasteful though would be to miss the point. I actually did see the point to it, it just was handled poorly and ends up being a boner kill. It was too fake and forced. And when something is patently fake, it's one of the worst mood killers there is. So again, it's not about being anti-PC for the sake of being anti-PC. It's about being uninhibited and raw. That may or may not include light or heavy race play, just as actual IR couples in the real world do not all vibe the same way. I know for a fact some are into what would be considered very politically incorrect themes and roleplay if not straight up outrageous race play. Just look at the wild shit on Clips4Sale with amateur couples. They don't have to represent a parent company or brand. They don't rep anyone but themselves, so they are as uninhibited as anyone out there. I don't go searching exclusively for that type of thing either. I know some people who have that kink rely on it totally. They're probably the type who pay for custom videos of dommes who verbally berate and denigrate them. That's very very niche, and it ain't my bag. I'd much rather just see some good old fashioned IR gonzo than something which is specifically and exclusively geared toward using "offensive" language. But where I have to take the devil's advocate position is that I just loathe restrictions about what can never be allowed, and it seems quite apparent that there's been a chilling effect with the thuggish themes, and a total moratorium on N-word use. I totally understand why the perfunctory thuggish themes have been checked and "chilled" out. Not so much because of the notion that it was offensive, but because it was simply played out and predictable and just lame. Just like Dogfart's attempt to pander with those N-word signs. It's just unimaginative and ironically boring. I remember thinking, like for real, Dogfart? This is where we are at now? Thankfully the Blacked effect forced everyone to step their game up, including Dogfart who are now consistently producing what is easily the greatest content they have ever produced in their entire 15+ years of existence. I think it's excellent to see them finally shake things up, scout out new locations, come up with new themes. A great example is the recent Piper Perry and Alura Janson scene with Mandingo in the tattoo parlor. They didn't just rearrange some cheap furniture in Billy Watson's garage/dungeon, with that shitty fake plastic tree and those paper thin walls that aren't even connected to the ceiling. They actually went out and set up at a real shop. Fred "Mandingo" Nice wasn't a typical cookie cutter thug, he was a tattoo artist. This evolution is great because it keeps things fresh. But it doesn't mean the "bad boys" theme needs to be banished altogether. Girls still like that, and guys still find it vicariously thrilling. That's why it's so common not just in IR but in mainstream porn as well. People forget how common it is. Vanilla porn is filled with bad boy characters. So I say I'm appreciative of the new "higher road" approach, but the most ideal happy medium is a mix. The pendulum has swung very far into the "safe space", but we need it to swing back into some funky bad attitude aggression sometimes - mind you not in terms of how to actually treat female performers, but in terms of how they portray scenes via characterization - to balance it out. To use a simple porn-related analogy, think of all this in terms of Playboy v Penthouse v Hustler. Anyone familiar with these three brands knows that Playboy is the "high class" mag, Penthouse was the middle-ground of explicitness/vularity, and Hustler was the real hardcore filth outlet. I'm not saying everything has to be Hustler all the time. I just appreciate Hustler more because it's bolder. I mostly preferred Penthouse. But I would be shocked to hear from anybody here who actually preferred Playboy out of all three. Didn't Playboy recently give up on showing the pussy? Now I'm not saying this "high class" IR approach is going to lead to a Playboy type of neutralization, or neutering, but it is making things more tame. The current state of IR has a Penthouse type of feel to it, despite the sometimes still typically stupid titles of movies (e.g. them horribly titled Stoney Curtis joints). We could do with some mo' Hustlin on the scene, if you follow. It's too bad Maxx Blacc, Boz, Richard Mann and Ice Cold aren't around anymore.
Well maybe she just was uncomfortable, in more ways that one, with working with Shorty Mac. I mean if that was her first IR, good grief. That could be brutal. Maybe she didn't want to complain about his size - isn't he even thicker than Shane? That's obscene. But Shorty hasn't been around in ages, so I imagine you're talking about that era when HushHush was in its prime. In truth, I have wondered if maybe those dudes partied too hard and developed a bad reputation. I always did wonder why so many of them seem to have quit the scene (or been blackballed like Maxx Black and Ice Cold?). If they were too rough and the girls felt mistreated, then that's by no means acceptable and should not be tolerated. But I think that says less about the tone of race dynamics and more about how a particular company handled its business. HushHush seemed like a more aggressive BangBros, but I don't think I ever watched a brutal scene that went too far. I remember seeing Isis Love wince in pain with Richard Mann, but she was in control and on top of him. She's a real pro and the way they handled their scenes was very unscripted and candid. The camera man would actively engage with the girls asking them how they are doing and what they can manage. As for Kagney, the idea that she could be hesitant about the sexualization or fetishization of black men is laughable. Have you seen her tweets? Every other tweet is about BBC. If she ever said "I don't call it BBC" that was the very rare exception to the rule. She's obsessed with BBC to the point it even annoys me. lol
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 2:33PM
Thanks for the clarification MF. I do see what Missporn and Melvyn are getting at, as previously mentioned I think it was the framing of it as a question of PC amd SJW, loaded rhetorical phrases that was in danger of derailing us. I do think there is a push from some on the Left to 'clean-up' certain aspects of niche sexual subcultures so they are both more in line with their narrow politics AND more digestible for the mainstream. Daniel Harris comes to this from the viewpoint of gay man in regards to the S&M and leather scenes in a great essay in his The Rise and Fall of Gay Culture (which also has a great essay on gay porn). I noticed this to a degree when the recent panic over the 50 Shades film came out and certain self-proclaimed representatives of the 'Kink' community were condemning what struck me as an inaccurate but mild and clearly fantasy S&M relationship. All the talk about how this wasn't a realistic S&M relationship, as if the one in Story of O was either?
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 2:41PM
I find Blacked, while well shot and nice to look at, to be rather dull and repetitive now, and it took a lot less time to get there than Dogfart did. This is a lot like "grunge" {hate that word} and any other trend regardless of genre. Run it into the ground, then move on. I don't nesa agree that it is pc altering styles, rather going towards what is selling. So called "thug porn" was played out, I can see Blacked and DarkX getting there sooner actually, as I find it more repetitive than Dogfart. Lost in the growth of glossy IR porn is the continued ignoring of stellar black female performers. Silicone Is Evil, Razors Aren't Much Better
Draxxx, come on. It is patently obvious that Ashley was having it both ways. Having the cake and eating it too. When she says that the term "BBC" is problematic, but then uses it anyway with relish, well... Come on, there is at least a measure of pretentiousness in there to put it mildly. lol I prefer to call it the lip service of fake outrage. I think performers just want to posture as progressive by "taking a strong stance" on non-issues. But I'm not mad at her. She's just trying to walk on eggshells, and it's not her fault that our increasingly intolerant society sort of dictates that. She's probably trying extra hard to appear conscientious and progressive given that she's been attacked as a dodger, which to be clear is a grievance I don't support attacking performers over. But I am certainly sure she's heard or read criticism from salty "hellhounds" who harangue her for not having done IR "soon enough." But nothing's ever good enough for this type of agitator. But that "I don't like the way it's portrayed" argument is a weak rationalization given the prevalence of provocative themes pushed in vanilla porn. And saying "BBC" is a problematic term crystallizes the hilarity of fake outrage about the industry. It crystallizes how ridiculous the grievances are and how silly the agitators on either side have become. I wouldn't be surprised if there were agitators who fancy themselves "activists" moving to strike any and all racial-related terms from porn altogether. "Stop using 'white' or 'black' in porn titles!" Yes, indeed, let's stop describing things altogether. lol It's so tedious and wearying to hear phony grievances about what's so "problematic" in the world, with vague insinuations and agitation to campaign against bogey-men. They use highfalutin terms like "institutionalized" and "internalized" to attach to any perceived imperfections... But all they end up doing is making perfect the enemy of the good. Edited by - Melvyn on 3/12/2016 3:17:32 PM
I disagree with that. there may be some in the Black community that has that caveman way of thinking but not a substantial amount my friend. It was Black people who accepted interracial couples in so called "Black areas". Black people did not burn down the houses of interracial couples, or ostracize members of their own families because they were fucking someone outside of their race. Just look at the reason why some of thees White porn females don't do ir...it's because of their families and what their families neighbors would think. You don't get that from Black females who fuck White dudes in porn. There is no push back from their families or threats of violence as some White actresses have claimed.
Grunge still sounds way better than the popular waves of rock that prevailed after it. Rock is almost dead now, which is why I am actually now fond of the once-useless "grunge" label. To me it represents arguably the last great era in rock. /tangent To your point about black females, of course black female + IR typically denotes black female with white male, but I would actually definitely approve of inviting some black females into Blacked in threeways or double couple swinger scenarios or orgies. Now that would be novel.
They don't use aggressively racially charged language like HushHush or older Dogfart content did, but they do still promote Shane as the "Black Bull" which is a title he wears with pride if you follow his Twitter. This is what I was talking about when I said I respect his confidence. He's not worried about people who are too sensitive, and it seems to be working for him because he's very popular on Twitter. Shane is actually more popular on Twitter than Lex or Mandingo. And I'm pretty sure Shane is the top selling male talent for New Sensations. Shane is a King. I also think he's cool because he has retweeted some of my work. So that's always a bonus.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 3:16PM
Good point, I think there is some grumbling from some segments of the black community about IR couples but no where near the vitriol and even violence visited upon them by parts of the white community.
Well that's a slight false equivalence when you consider that black females sort of have to do white males in porn in order to compete. There's not more pushback because to be successful in porn you gotta get in that mainstream, and for black performers that means they stand to benefit more from doing IR than by avoiding it. We all agree that avoiding IR is lame, and not you, MissPorn or I or almost anyone else here supports discriminating against IR. But it's just easier for white females to discriminate because by the math of demographics, they can get by without it more easily than minorities can. But there are definitely black folk in society who oppose races mixing families. Black females especially hate seeing that standard IR example of a white woman with a black man. Just like some insecure white dudes who are filled with contempt for it. And that reminds me of one of the funniest things I ever saw in a talk show. White Separatist and Black Separatist Square Off
In my opinion IR porn is trending in a positive way. I'm happy that the clown Negroes who portrayed Black men out of pocket are basically gone from the industry. I'm happy with the Brothers in porn today such as Jon Jon, Sean Michaels, Rico Strong, Prince....they represent Brothers in a positive way.
Rico Strong has a series directed by another prominent black figure in porn, Alexander Devoe, in which he played a kidnapper who keeps women in bondage. I vividly recall a scene with Austin Taylor who had her mouth ducktaped, before Rico comes in and releases her and administers a ferocious fuckdown. This wasn't some bigoted bogey-man's narrative forced on them. It was fueled by the creative minds of Rico and Davoe. Do you think that was a reprehensible portrait of black men? This is why I disagree with the weight which people assign to such things in porn. These are just porn fantasies, and yes sometimes they are very deviant and twisted and provocative. Why can't guys like Maxx Blacc and Jake Steed just do their own thing? Jake Steed, another prominent black pornographer, actually loved the "black men as monsters" angle. It doesn't mean it has to represent all black men. Prince actually takes pride in his "Silverback" label. Do you guys know what a silverback is??? But he's not being degraded. He has self-agency. He's chosen to reclaim a term it into a positive thing. So the way I see it, as long as the parties involved are cool with it, then let them express themselves how they wish. Take your argument and apply it to music. Do you think in the 90s people should have said "I don't like the way Snoop Dogg and Dr Dre and Ice Cube portray black men as gangstas"? Shunning the flagrant and provocative portrayals which black men opt to express of their own volition, for reasons to do with propriety and political correctness has the same effect as shunning these portraits out of racist hatred. I'm not saying the motivation to shun them comes from the same place, but it has the same result, which effectively amounts to a virtual censorship. It feels way too much like gatekeepers are controlling what is allowed and what is not allowed. It may not be formal discrimination, but it is a form of discrimination. Am I making sense? I hope you feel what I'm saying. I just call for people to not judge them so harshly. Edited by - Melvyn on 3/12/2016 4:06:16 PM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 4:02PM
It is interesting that Lansky has made such a change to the landscape just through his creative intention. So much of porn is assumed to be strictly economically driven but Lansky has changed things to a large degree by being good. PS. There are lots of people in the black community who were and are critical of the personas of Ice Cube (a middle class architecture student btw) and Snoop Dog. And they aren't just older black people but people who are integral and knowledgble of the hip hop community. Edited by - BlackSix on 3/12/2016 4:11:52 PM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 4:14PM
^ Course and they need enough economic backing to reach the audience they have but pre-Lansky would many in the industry have predicted the demand he has tapped? He succeeded by doing something different.
^ Oh yeah, of course. No one is advocating that performers should do scenes they're uncomfortable with. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 3/12/2016 4:40:12 PM
Right but do you honestly think those are the type of people we want judging porn? Would it even make a difference to them? Wouldn't they just roundly frown down on porn period? With music it's different because that is something which much more publicly pervades in communities. Kids will hear it being blasted through the neighborhood. I take it you were only mentioning that for the sake of argument and you may not necessarily agree with those criticisms, and I take the point, but surely we can be a little less strict with porn? Whatever slack we afford music, we should afford porn even more slack.
BTW, the flick was talking about in reference to Austin Taylor and Rico Strong was "Dynamic Booty 4" - I highly recommend checking it out. Anyone who has a problem with that Alexander Devoe directed romp, please write a essay about why it's so offensive to you. You can check the trailer right here Edited by - Melvyn on 3/12/2016 4:46:07 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 4:56PM
I have no problem with her or any other performer, or any person, not being into raceplay. Ashley goes further than merely "not being into raceplay" in the last several sentences of that excerpt. There is a big, big, BIG difference between "I'm not comfortable filming that" and "That shouldn't be filmed."
Here's KLK tweet (She's a fan of the Pit BTW) For Zoe Voss you got me wrong Shorty Mac wasn't just her first IR it was probably her first scene ever she continued for three years after that, other than him she worked with Sledgehammer, did a Glory Hole scene and a Cuckold scene for Dogfart with Shane Diesel it wasn't brutal but the race play was heavy, which is probably the reason why she stopped doing IR, or at least she stopped performing race play Edited by - LCF on 3/12/2016 5:18:12 PM
So Jungle Fever was a complete fantasy? I'm asking I'm not American
[Link]
TastyFilthyGirlStinkHoles Deactivated User
It just looks and feels so fucking good! 142 Posts 3/16
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 5:31PM
Amazing how people are comfortable with hard raceplay, longing for the return of the use of the "N" word and black males depicted solely as thugs and criminals. Ya'll are arguing for this to return from some kind of anti-PC standpoint but fail to realize such thing perpetuate hateful racial stereotypes in society. The black man is an animal, a beast or a monster thug and the little white girl is a helpless innocent thing. what a load of BS Some of you claim "oh, its harmless fun"...but why is nobody pushing for other areas of "harmless fun" that negatively impacts other races or cultures? You're all for that, but nobody seems to be asking for NAZI or KKK themes why is that? if its just harmless stereotypes why don't we have it all? Why is it okay for the continued portrayal of the silly stupid dope-dealing gang-affiliated black males in porn but its not okay for white males to be draped in KKK attire? Why doesn't anybody ask for other such niches and stereotypes that push similar boundaries? Would any of you be comfortable with white males being dressed in a KKK clansman outfit as they fuck helpless black females who call them H*nkeys and Cr*ckers? would that be okay for your tastes? Perhaps KKKX could be the name of the studio? Or maybe some of you would be comfortable with white German male performers dressed in Nazi and SS uniforms as they fuck helpless Jewish females? perhaps the male talent can perform a Sieg Heil Nazi salute too before the scene begins? Surely all these things are agreeable with the same people who want black males dressed as dope dealers and gangbangers being called N words? since its just harmless fun? Or .....what is it that some of you really want, do you all just want to hear black people being called N*ggers because other forms of media cut it out in the 70s and 80s? what is it really? Edited by - TastyFilthyGirlStinkHoles on 3/12/2016 5:33:48 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 12 2016 : 5:40PM
I wasn't trying to find anything strange about her interview.I bolded a portion so I wouldn't have to reply to it as a separate quote. My response is no you don't. Angela White, for example, mentioned that her first IRs were first IRs but didn't go beyond that. I see nothing wrong () with Ashley's acknowledgment of race in the interview, but why, in her opinion, is it okay to mention and emphasize race and racial differences offscreen but if you do so onscreen it's racist?She's also saying that it's racist to speak about those things within the context of a porn scene. Again, why is it okay to mention and emphasize race and racial differences offscreen but if you do so onscreen it's racist? She said: "The way that pornography portrays race and the importance of race trickles down to everything in society. It’s really influential." Well, doesn't the way that a famous pornstar speaks about race and the importance of race also trickle down to society? Is it not influential? It's very possible that Ashley has very rational reasons for not seeing any contradiction here, but she didn't express any in her interview and you haven't expressed any here.It's my impression that you're reducing this to a simple matter of what turns Ashley on and what doesn't. I want to remind you of the context. Ashley said: "The racism of a lot of IR scenes is what markets it and that’s why it’s so popular. I wanted to do my movie in a way that didn’t feed into it." Ashley said: "The way that pornography portrays race and the importance of race trickles down to everything in society. It’s really influential. If more people would take the responsibility of taking that marketing tool away. People are still going to jerk off to it thinking whatever they want to think but we don’t have to perpetuate the certain stereotype of bigotry as pornographers. " The portion of the excerpt in between those two quotes is Ashley's description of how she tried to avoid "racism" and "bigotry" in her scene. It is important that we recognize that context. "I'm uncomfortable with that type of scene and I don't want to film it because it's offensive to me" seems to be how you're interpreting her, but she went further than that. Now, that's her right, but let's at least recognize what she's actually saying, beginning what the fact that she's not just talking about her subjective preference as you apparently think. She's talking about how even mild raceplay is racist, how people who are creating that "racist" form of porn should stop making it because they're promoting bigotry, and how she made choices in her showcase to not promote the "racism" and "bigotry" that purveyors of raceplay are. Again, she has a right to all of those beliefs and to express and share those sentiments proudly and widely if she so chooses, but can we not overlook what she actually said please? Now, I want to understand how a white man being cuckolded by a black man is wrong, but a black man being cuckolded by a black man isn't. We're talking about morality here. Wrong and right. "Racism" and "bigotry" and moral terms. This ain't about what's sexy to Ashley and what isn't. Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/12/2016 5:45:49 PM
I can only imagine what my dad thought.
The Blacked effect is a rose and this is its thorn.