He is right, it's mainly the stars who just don't want to have sex with a black man. Their agents also have something to do with it but it's mainly the girls. Their excuse is either it's degrading or they aren't attracted to black men. And of course they aren't racist because they have black friends. Edited by - Nimrod on 10/1/2009 3:38:46 PM
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 1 2009 : 4:37PM
But it is the performer. Each contract girl has a list of guys she wants to work with. A lot of Vivid girls love Mr. Marcus, they work with him. You say the industry is validating and funding. Funding? Meaning the industry is paying people to not use African Americans? Paying who? Vivid has also done a series called Blackmaled. We have shot IR for a longtime. You shout discrimination, yet I don't see it. There is a ton of IR stuff being shot and that's been produced. Are you suggesting that every movie should have an IR scene in it? That is crazy. Janines Been Blackmaled, Monique Been Blackmaled and Savannas Been Blackmaled, three of our biggest stars have all done IR, we still shoot IR. We employed Mr. Marcus for his own series. What companies are discriminating? Name Names. I don't blame economics at all, our IR stuff sells really well.
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Well my friend there was a time when Vivid didn't do it and people were questioning discrimination of what Vivid didn't do for the Interracial fans. Hell, you had contract girl Jenna Jameson and she didn't take one black dick while she worked for your company not even Marcus. But, you guys have change in the past three or five years so that's a start. I give you credit for that.
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Dude, you cannot fault Jenna for not doing inter racial, we don't force girls to do anything. If we did that, you would be screaming that Vivid makes girls do inter-racial. It was never a decision to do it or not do it, back in the day, there were companies that catered to that audience, Vivid wasn't one of them, the Vivid customer was a couple or a woman or guys who liked storyline. We have diversified over the last 25 years. We make porn that we feel will appeal to the widest audience. You never answered my questions above, what companies are discriminating? You say the industry is validating and funding. Funding? Meaning the industry is paying people to not use African Americans? Paying who? Please answer this.
The reason why he is saying this is because once they retired, these girls usually say that the companies are the reason why they never did IR. They always say that they just did scenes they were told to, but we all know that they are free to do whatever they want to. They make the final decison. I don't think that every girl has to do IR but they shouldn't blame their agents or companies like Vivid as to why they never did IR. They need to be more honest and say that it's their personal decison. It's their body and no one can force them to do what they aren't comfortable with.
To the people who use the attraction argument, why is it that a vast majority of European girls don't mind IR ? Here in the US, there is more girls not willing to do IR that the ones who have no problem with it. Does that mean that European white girls are naturally more attracted to black men than their American counterparts? Are they genetically different? Almost all the top stars in Europe do IR.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 1 2009 : 6:36PM
Totally 100% correct. Fact: Jenna did not wan to do black guys period. The companies cannot tell the girls you are working with a black guy today. First of all, the girls are all listed with an agent, we get a flyer that says what they will and will not do, it says on the flyer, Inter-racial: yes or no Anal: yes or no DP: yes or no, and on and on. We don't call girls they have listed no inter-racial and ask them if they will do it. When we are doing an IR scene we pick the girls that list yes to IR. There is discrimination in every aspect of life, that's life. I love everyone, except Arab terrorists, but even being jewish, I know some Arabs I like. It is not what they are, it's who they are. There are assholes in every race, usually they are the minority. I happen to like all people unless they are assholes. To say this industry has it out for anyone simply is nonsense. Some of my best friends in the industry are black. Mr. Marcus is the fuckin best dude on the planet, we love each other, I don't see color, I just see a really cool dude.
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supa_dupa09 Deactivated User
118 Posts 6/09
Posted - Oct 1 2009 : 6:58PM
Oh! I never noticed that about valerie and the other girls anybody want to clue me in: http://forum.julesjordanvideo.com/showthread.php?t=1131 and who is nicole banks? Name sounds familiar. Anyway i just wanted to knwo do anybody in here subscribe to blacksonblondes.com If so have ya'll seen that new austin taylor/jordan kingsley scene and the mellanie monroe scene they got up now. Bananas! But that sadie west scene is still the best of the year on blacksonblondes.
Shake for me girl... I wanna be your backdoorman ! 2776 Posts 10/07
Posted - Oct 1 2009 : 8:45PM
Just so ya know ! I refuse to read anymore IR threads ! This shit is boring as fuck and has no apparent meaning,function or end. I know "Don't let the door hit you on your ass on your way out" ...I won't !
^It's not overtly obvious from the title of the thread that it's an IR thread. (i.e., the sentence could have been finished with: "I do anal." "I only do girls." "I let people know I'm married." "I let people know I have a boyfriend." etc.) I'm sure that he arrived here by accident.
i think its because a lot american white porn women are racist, i dont care anyone says. There are girls who dont really like black men in europe off camera, but have no problems with us on camera. Because they see it as porn, not a love connection. Also blacks are an embarrassment in the U.S. Like these chicks are afraid of what their friends might say back home.
Ive heard how racist certain european countries are but when i look up their pornstars, they all seem to do i.r. which is weird to me. The only type that i hear are racist sometimes r hungarian chicks, no black people are there, but you see aletta ocean taking it black with no problem.
Well my friend there was a time when Vivid didn't do it and people were questioning discrimination of what Vivid didn't do for the Interracial fans. Hell, you had contract girl Jenna Jameson and she didn't take one black dick while she worked for your company not even Marcus. But, you guys have change in the past three or five years so that's a start. I give you credit for that.
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Dude, you cannot fault Jenna for not doing inter racial, we don't force girls to do anything. If we did that, you would be screaming that Vivid makes girls do inter-racial. It was never a decision to do it or not do it, back in the day, there were companies that catered to that audience, Vivid wasn't one of them, the Vivid customer was a couple or a woman or guys who liked storyline. We have diversified over the last 25 years. We make porn that we feel will appeal to the widest audience. You never answered my questions above, what companies are discriminating? You say the industry is validating and funding. Funding? Meaning the industry is paying people to not use African Americans? Paying who? Please answer this.
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Jenna did scenes with black women (Tiffany Mason) http://www.iafd.com/title.rme/title=where+the+boys+aren%27t+17/year=2004/where-the-boys-aren%27t-17.htm (Anna Amore)(Taboo) http://www.iafd.com/title.rme/title=kiss/year=1995/kiss.htm She gets double teamed by two black women with strap-ons Here is a small clip http://eskimotube.com/51278-Anna-Amore-And-Taboo-Vs-Jenna-Jameson-The-Kiss.html Edited by - pokerman on 10/2/2009 12:19:15 AM
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supa_dupa09 Deactivated User
118 Posts 6/09
Posted - Oct 1 2009 : 11:45PM
Valeri Luxe clearing things up on her blog http://valerieluxe.blogspot.com/ But the thing she said about black guys in porn kind of is one of them weak excuses again "If and when I do anal on camera, it will not be based on race, but rather on size. Not many black men in porn have small dicks sooooooooo.........LOL." Why do pornstars say that when you have black male pornstars out there that are not BIG, it makes no sense. Any way I just found out who nicole banks is, I saw her before just didnt remember.
This is one of my few problems with the whole "IR" thing. Its just as you said in this post right(I cropped it out). "Its not what they are, its who they are". So why is race even an option on their "flyer" or "card"?! Just the fact that they hold sex with a black man along with categories like DP, DAP, DVP, Creampie, Anal, etc is just lame. So the industry does have a big role in it. How much of a role companies, agents, manager, friends, directors, and the girls themselves play in the verdict has yet to be determined. In th end without an facts, this is just a bunch of people throwing Hypothesis and assumptions back and forth at one another. *****The Dr. of Nasty*****
To me it's simply a non-issue these days. I never thought the argument stood-up 20 years ago, and damn sure don't think it's holds up in these modern times. I'd be surprised to even hear any female spout such nonsense with so-called IR pushing the units they do today, although I'm guessing they'll always be some who do. Damn I just wish they'd take that racist ass IR tag off performers "do" lists.
I am getting so shit of people whining about this issue? Why the FUCK does it matter? For every 1 chick who doesn't do interracial there are 20 who will. You say it's not damaging to a performers career - how would you know? Just because Jenna Haze are Sasha Grey have done black guys and have successful careers does not mean many other girls have. Personally (generally) I do not find black female performers attractive, and for that reason I do not usually watch porn with black women in it. Many are talented performers, but just don't do it for me. Some white girls I don't find attractive either. It's not purposely discriminating, being racist or a bigot, it's just the way it is for me. I assume some girls who don't do black guys often feel the same way. At the end of the day, whatever the reason, it exists. Deal with it. Black performers who are men, not really an issue for me - I don't mind watching them with white girls but I am not gonna purposely buy a flick because it's interracial. Edited by - joel on 10/2/2009 6:55:10 AM
To me classy is more what you do off screen anyway, Valarie (and I hope you see this). What you do sexually is so little of what life is that I would not call a woman classless over one or two scenes. I don't know you or even what you look like, but class is what standards you hold up to off screen and is not affected by what you do on screen for money (although Mr. Marcus does owe an apology if he left bruises on you without your permission, most mainstream male talent would not do that unless he was doing an BDSM scene and the harshness was mutually agreed to). Have fun with your black guys and I hope you find a good husband out of one of them so you can have a happy retirement when that time comes. Also, I wonder if that text was really left by the real Marcus London, many porn talent have been impersonated online (including Stormy Daniels and Julia Ann of all people).
I don't think there was direct contact in the scenes she did with the black girls. They only used strap-ons. By direct contact, I mean kissing and pussy licking.
In real life, a lot of people aren't attracted to some races and don't date them but that doesn't mean that it they were pornstars they will refuse to do scenes with ALL people of those races. I'm not attracted to Asian women but does that mean I think all asians are unattractive? No. When you consider millions of people of a certainl race as being the same when it comes to looks, it becomes a little fishy. There is ugly in every race. I'm not a big fan of asians but I think Asia Carrera and Tera look good and I can never refuse to do them. Do you think that all the people who work with black men are attracted to them? Why do you explain that almost all European pornstars have no issue with IR? Is it because they are different from their American counterparts?
That is lame lol! Have you not seen these scenes. Tiffany Mason, Mercedez and Jenna all give each other oral. http://bp2.blogger.com/_-jyWLvY6RC0/SI5e1Ol6JoI/AAAAAAAAKX8/LeabtxGoGtI/s400/M,JJ+%26+TM_wtba+%2317+Preview.jpg Edited by - pokerman on 10/2/2009 10:09:13 AM
I agree with what you said and know what you mean. There are girls in all races I find attractive, but generalizing it is mostly white women - and mostly black women I find less appealing.
Again, my point was: We've got the whole IR genre -- which is huge! -- of Black males fucking White females, yet all these guys want to do is complain about individual performers who don't (or haven't yet) done IR scenes, hurl accusations as to "why" and call the girls racists. Why do you refuse to respond to this point? You want to play "victim" and blame the "White guys" for pointing out an obvious flaw in the whole "White-girls-won't-do-Black-guys" tirade? And, just who's buying all this BM/WF IR product? I've got to believe it is predominately Black males. My theory of the racial divide in porn is that, men want to see studs of their own racial/ethnic background fucking the girls -- and that most men could care less what the racial/ethnic makeup of the girls are, as long as they're attractive and appeal to them. (see here) Here's what my fellow mod killbillvol69 had to say about my comments. Now, I want to see more WM/BF IR, goddammit! Who's going to do something about that? All evidence would seem to suggest that White porn studs and Black porn chicks don't have any problems doing IR. Now, I'm sure there are those who will argue that, the scarcity of WM/BF IR porn is just an economic reality of the porn marketplace, but they "do not see a problem because it isn't a problem for them." But, I'm sure it's a racist conspiracy of some sort Just for yucks, I'd hate to be the Black guy whose Black wife/girlfriend finds his stash of BM/WF IR porn. What's up with that? White She Devil Further research
This statement is far from true. You should look at a few modeling pages and see how many girls do "IR" and compare that number to the ones that don't. Then come back and give a realistic number. Last time I checked LA direct there was about 5 girls out of 50 or so that listed "IR". That is a pretty small ass number. I am guessing it hasn't changed much since then. *****The Dr. of Nasty*****
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 2 2009 : 1:55PM
Jenna did scenes with black women (Tiffany Mason) http://www.iafd.com/title.rme/title=where+the+boys+aren%27t+17/year=2004/where-the-boys-aren%27t-17.htm (Anna Amore)(Taboo) http://www.iafd.com/title.rme/title=kiss/year=1995/kiss.htm She gets double teamed by two black women with strap-ons Here is a small clip http://eskimotube.com/51278-Anna-Amore-And-Taboo-Vs-Jenna-Jameson-The-Kiss.html Edited by - pokerman on 10/2/2009 12:19:15 AM [/quote] I think they are talking about guys. Jenna is not a racist, she just didn't want to do black guys. Because you wouldn't fuck a black guy doesn't mean you're a racist. It means you don't want to fuck a black guy.
BigBobxxx wrote: Why do you refuse to respond to this point? You want to play "victim" and blame the "White guys" for pointing out an obvious flaw in the whole "White-girls-won't-do-Black-guys" tirade? [/quote] ntfighter wrote: Some are born victims, some achieve victimhood and some have victimolgy thrust upon them. LOL As I've said before, I think this a stimulating and particularly adult discussion. I was taken aback at just how my own views differ from most white guys. Imho, it is not about interracial sex in porn or it's not only about interracial sex in porn, and for me it's not the individual girl. It began with the advent of porn as a business and has persisted unabated to this day. I think most folks are rarely if ever exposed to overt racism or they are unwilling to recognize it when it appears. Well here it is, the porn industry. It places special circumstances on African American participation, it has at its core a reward system where white females are paid a premium to perform the most basic tasks with African Americans. It offers a spurious economic excuse why African American women are held to be not as valuable as any other women While it refuses to expend the resource to promote black women. BigBobxxx wrote: My theory of the racial divide in porn is that, men want to see studs of their own racial/ethnic background fucking the girls -- and that most men could care less what the racial/ethnic makeup of the girls are, as long as they're attractive and appeal to them. [/quote] ntfighter wrote: That is the basis of this thread. Not being able to see the girl you like with a guy who looks like you. I prefer black women I'm guessing that you prefer white women. I'm male, I don't dislike any women. There are some who are not into (black} women [/quote] BigBobxxx wrote: And, just who's buying all this BM/WF IR product? I've got to believe it is predominately Black males. [/quote] ntfighter wrote: Reading some of the ir threads I can see how one could get that impression, but don't think that's true. I basing my opinion on the titles and the content of most ir movies I've seen. That whole thing of portraying the "thugged out black-man" or "split the white bitch" isn't aimed at a black audience. Take a look at Justin Slayer's or LT's or some of the amateur stuff produced, nobody gets their ass kicked. [/quote] BigBobxxx wrote: Now, I'm sure there are those who will argue that, the scarcity of WM/BF IR porn is just an economic reality of the porn marketplace, but they "do not see a problem because it isn't a problem for them." But, I'm sure it's a racist conspiracy of some sort [/quote] ntfighter wrote: It's not conspiracy in tthe sense that you mean, but it produces the same results It's a confederation of like minded people who have not as yet seen the worth of black women. I wouldn't discount a bunch of porn studs who refuse to do interracial, but that hasn't been explored yet. We had a producer/director come in here and post that there is no difference in a girl refusing ir and refusing to work with animals. I'm banking on his opinion being out there at the extreme edge,, but he felt perfectly comfortable in expressing his views here. No one called him on it. After waiting I posted a reply. If there were such a thing a a conspiracy involving white she devil and what was the other character in that movie, Mr big. Do you think you would notice? I don't think so. White She Devil
There is different level of prejudice in the world. Some people don't mind having black friends or having them over for dinner but they wouldn't let them date their daughters or sisters. They aren't hardcore racist but they have some prejudice in them to a certain extent. There are some people who are racist to the point where they wish some races could just be exterminated...that is harcore racism. However, anybody who says that he can't fuck anyone of a certain race no matter what they look like definitely have some kind of prejudice in them. There are some blacks who are mixed to the point where you can't tell if have black in them. Girls date them without a problem but when they tell them that they have black in them, some girls just refuse to date them. I've had friends like that in the past. If you are raised in an environment where you are told people of a certain race are below you, whether you are racist or not you will have a hard time getting intimate with them. In some countries, that stuff sometimes happens within people of the same race...it usually has to do with ebing from different religions, tribes,social class and other reasons.
blah blah blah blah blah??? B L A H!!!blah blah 69 blah blah blah.... rehash of the same old shit. blah blah blah.NO IM THE VICTIM TO!!! I have black friends so therefore im not a racist im just misunderstood..everyone hates everything on some degree or another. my idea is to say get the hell over it and find something worthy of your time to fight for. argueing over who a woman fucks for money is so fuckin anally trival it boggles the fricken mind. people are dying and starving and you fuckin idiots are whinning over this???? really???
Because I don't know her and don't know the reasons why she didn't fuck black men, I can't say that Jenna is a racist. However it seems like people think to be racist you need to belong to some racist group, constantly use the N word or wish the worst on blacks. Like I said there is different level of prejudice. No one can deny that are some people don't like to have sex with blacks because they find them inferior and repulsive. Some of those people aren't necessarily hardcore racist...they can even have black friends. It's when people are put to the test that they can find out if they are prejudice or not. When I was in College my best friend was white and I can't say that he is racist, but when he was put to the test he failed. After college, I dated his sister and when he found out about it he got upset and it ruined our friendship. A friend of his dated his sister in the past but he had no problem with it...he was only freaking out because I'm black. He initially denied it but he confessed after we broke up. Do I think he is hardcore racist? No. But he certainly has some prejudice in him because he didn't see me as equal to other white dudes.
ntfighter, Will all due respect, I do not feel that you have addressed this point: "We've got the whole IR genre -- which is huge! -- of Black males fucking White females, yet all these guys want to do is complain about individual performers who don't (or haven't yet) done IR scenes, hurl accusations as to "why" and call the girls racists." There is a staggering amount of BM/WF IR porn being made. Just how, exactly, is the industry failing to meet this market?
Well, {sigh of resignation} no disrespect intended, but its a black thing you apparently will never understand it. I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain for posting tin hats or advocating that the thread be locked. It seems that because you don't understand the interest in this subject, you believe people who do understand are crazy. It is an ugly attitude. Edited by - ntfighter on 10/2/2009 9:12:22 PM
I was mocking one of the main "points" of this thread.I'm sure he was trying to make a point using a deliberately preposterous analogy. It would be helpful if you quote and/or link to posts when you make these kind of self-justifying statements.The character of "White She Devil" was given that name by one of the Black female characters, because that was meant to show how the Black women perceived the Black man/White woman dynamic -- and, yes, I thought you should have noticed that. It was a major plot point. Again, you play deliberately obtuse to the point being made.
I understand perfectly well when people are unwilling and/or incapable of responding to a point, and defending their position. Are you a politician? But its NOT a Black or White "thing," which you, apparently, will never understand.
You have the ugly attitudes. I understand the "interest" in these threads all too well. If the tin hat fits, wear it. Please show me where I advocated that THIS thread be locked? (We all know that I changed my mind and did say so in another thread). But, I guess all these IR threads are one-in-the-same to you, aren't they? What you call "crazy," I would describe as flawed premises, inarticulately argued, intellectually dishonest and beaten-to-death. I would "appreciate it" if you would refrain from putting words in people's mouths, and casting dispersion on those that dare to question you, and the flawed premises that are posted as gospel in this -- and every other -- IR thread.
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supa_dupa09 Deactivated User
118 Posts 6/09
Posted - Oct 3 2009 : 12:49AM
OOOOUCH!! Who will do somethin that fcukin crazy, better yet who is still walking from doing something that fucking crazy, lol. I like freaky porn, but thats too much, oooh their ass gotta be on fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this a racist statement? Which I think is the main problem here. I have never gone into a scene looking for what is called interracial. I just want to see hot scenes, I don't care if it's white on white, black on white, latino on white, latino on black or so on. I've also always hated the term interracial since I've thought just the aspect of it to be racist. But that's just me. But here, people are arguing that if a porn star doesn't have sex with black men, she is racist. And when someone doesn't get it, they are told it's a black thing, meaning, I'm assuming, that white people won't get the issue. By definition, that's racist.
honestly i think so-called "IR" porn is some of the most racist shit i have ever seen constant portrayal of black men as ebonics-spewing thugs and lowlifes, beasts and animals. a lot of "IR" porn is basically a minstrel show. it makes a fetish out of ugly stereotypes look at that Spring Thomas chick. who cares that she did so many scenes with black men? her dialogue was like a Klan rally. nigger this, nigger that. nigger nigger nigger. "niggers don't have jobs" if you care so much about racism, where is the outrage over that? the term "IR" is itself bullshit since it only means black man-white woman. if the IR fans really cared about racial equality, then the interracial genre would encompass all combinations. black women and Asian men, Hispanic men and Asian women, white women and east Indian women, whatever. but IR fans don't have anything to say about those combinations or lack of those combinations, because that does not turn them on. they are only into the fetishized black men-on-white women. it is not "a black thing" it is just a fetish. i bet many IR fans are not black. more and more i am thinking the IR trolls are the racist ones
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - Oct 3 2009 : 5:50AM
Generally speaking if they refuse to do scenes with Blacks, but do scenes with Asians and Latinos it's because they have a problem with Blacks. That's just the way it is.That whites wouldn't understand because of their history is statement of fact without a racial angle being involved. And generally speaking there are a myriad of issues that different groups have difficulty understand about each other. And that this is true is a racially neutral issue.
This isn't directed to you but I noticed that racists are very quick to call minorities racist for any reason. Maybe it's just a way to justify their own bigotry. Let's not get into politics but there was lots of it in the Sotomayor confirmation and in that "Gates" incident. Like I said, I'm not talking about you. Going back to topic, why are the people who get upset over racism in porn racist?
I'm a black guy that likes IR porn. There are periods when all I buy or rent is IR porn. So I can totally understand if people complain about the girls who don't do IR.....If this were 1985 but since it's not and there's an abundance of IR porn today I really don't get why so many are so bothered by the girls who choose not to. Really. There's so much IR porn out there I can ignore 98% percent of it and still get or see more than enough of it to be happy. There was a time when seeing a IR porn movie with pretty white women or big name stars in it was something special but now it's part of the norm and nothing special at all. Honestly, with all the big names and hot girls who're white and doing IR it baffles my mind that some people still worry about the ones who don't. If a person takes the time to go to different agent sites and look through all the girls just to count how many aren't doing IR I think they have an agenda and are just looking to have something to complain about. Because really, how many people are that hung up on the subject to take the time and effort to do that? I personally think there are several types of people who get so upset by this... 1) The people who are hung up on race and no matter what the subject is they'd bring race into it. They proclaim all people should be colorblind and race shouldn't matter yet they're obsessed with it and see "racism" everywhere. 2) The people who feel all porn and all porn performers should do what they want to see regardless of how the performers feel about it. These people also are very vocal about anal, boobjobs, and facials. 3)The people who are most attracted to or worry most about what they can't have. With the amount of big names and hot women doing IR why on earth would people be so obbseesed with some of the names being thrown out in thee discussions? If someone uncovered a secret stash of Jenna Jameson IR scenes I couldn't care less about seeing them and I'd have to imagine a lot of people would feel the same about probably most of the girls being named in these types of threads. But........ because those girls don't do IR and some are angred that they don't they become an unattainable attraction that the person must have (as in do IR). 4) The people who are never happy and this is just another in their long list of things that's wrong in porn to complain about. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this shouldn't be disscussed or isn't sometimes interesting or insightful. But starting all these threads under a supposed different angle to say the same thing over and over is a bit much. And yes, I know I can skip over them (and I do with most) but I sometimes get suckered in by the title of the thread and think it's going to be a different discussion but about 4 posts in it reverts back to more of the same.
What a bunch of rambling bullshit. People who like interracial porn are no more fetishists than people who like big boobs, big butts, gangbangs or whatever. And you call interracial porn racist, but the stars who refust to do it and the viewers who won't watch it, yeah they're so god damned enlightened right? Give me a fucking break. The same tired excuses for these girls who, for reasons of ignorance, prejudice or cowardice, still refese to do a single black guy on film. Edited by - Christopher256 on 10/3/2009 11:39:42 AM Edited by - Christopher256 on 10/3/2009 11:41:14 AM
Posted - Oct 1 2009 : 3:47PM
Further research
This statement is far from true. You should look at a few modeling pages and see how many girls do "IR" and compare that number to the ones that don't. Then come back and give a realistic number. 
