Why buy porn anymore? (page 13)

Author	Post
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 3:35PM Mike Quasar wrote: Those "arists" supported by the community are not artists, they're pretentious drains on society. Let's do a comparison - The white album vs the Piss Christ. Which was was supported by public funds and which was made for profit? Enough said. Click to expand While I see what you're getting at Mike, I think you may be overstating your point. Do we really want to call Michaelangelo a "drain on society" because he was commissioned to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel by the RC Church? I'm not sure I'd want to pass that kind of judgment, and I have a feeling you wouldn't either. But I could be wrong. [edit: just noticed that this was my post #2257 - coincidence? I think not! ] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/20/2008 3:37:19 PM [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 4:19PM killbillvol69 wrote:But maybe the key here, for those looking for a way to fight the illegal downloading... Click to expand KBV, don't drink the kool aid. or at least not all of it. you're dangerously close to being sucked into the trap of the red herring fallacy ALWAYS trotted out by the piracy proponents/sympathizers: "you'll never stop ALL piracy" of course not. but who is the ridiculous clown who foisted that challenge upon john doe producer of "brand x" or jane smith producer of "brand y"? the red herring is that somehow the obtuse have appointed the content producer to be guardians of ALL digital media, instead of a willing defender of his/her own content. is adobe trying to protect photoshop or girlvana? is electronic arts trying to defend madden 09 or odd jobs 4? is microsoft fighting illegal distribution of windows vista or my neighbor's sex tapes? you get the picture. don't fall for the okey doke logical fallacies. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 4:36PM ^Whoa, hey, by no means am I falling into any traps or whatever else. All I was doing was explaining that the idea Flash had come up with about five posts ago or so has in fact worked in practice in the real world, and is therefore not all that crazy sounding. The rest of the comments were only meant to couch it so that people don't think that this ONE idea, by itself, will solve all piracy problems. Further, I was doing my best, as I have been whenever I've contributed to this thread so far, to stay out of the argument itself, and simply contribute various facts or stories that I felt were relevant, or challenge various claims that I felt were untrue. It is not my desire in any way to "join" the argument of whether or not illegally downloading is ok; everyone here knows that it is ADT's policy that no encouragement of illegal downloading is to be supported or encouraged or facilitated, and as a moderator I support that policy 100%. Most will know this from the many posts I've had to edit here in my first month as moderator, and in fact, the only reason I read this thread all the time is because it's the kind of place where it seems that information which runs counter to ADT's policy might be more likely to pop up. As such I make a habit of checking in on it whenever I can. Before I became a mod, I ignored the thread completely because I simply wasn't interested in the discussion, as it seems incredibly roundabout; as I suggested a couple of pages ago, it reminds me very much of the Monty Python Argument sketch. The only reason I have contributed anything at all is because I'm the kind of guy who just can't seem to let untruths or misnomers go unchecked. It's a personal fault. But again, none of my comments indicate me "falling" into the assumption that because ALL piracy can't be stopped, none of it should be. If anything, I think that my last two posts before this one indicate that this temporary means of slowing down piracy might give the industry a boost during which they would be ahead of the piracy for a small time, allowing them to come up with better plans of what to do about it for the long term. So if someone was being particularly shrewd, they'd probably be able to figure out that I'm actually offering a realistic start for a plan of how to get ahead of the pirates once and for all. Not that I'm taking sides. ;) [edit: fucked up cutting and pasting different paragraphs into each other, fixed now. also, typos. fuckin' typos.] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/20/2008 4:39:48 PM [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 5:01PM Mike Quasar wrote: You're absolutely right. Now stop masturbating to porn you fucking hypocrite. Those "arists" supported by the community are not artists, they're pretentious drains on society. Let's do a comparison - The white album vs the Piss Christ. Which was was supported by public funds and which was made for profit? Enough said. Click to expand Bullshit, there were and are many great jazz musicians who couldn't make a living based on their music, not to mention painters, novelists and poets. To drag up 'Piss Christ' is a straw man, how about Cormac McCarthy, who didn't produce a commercially successful novel until 'All the Pretty Horses.' To dismiss all art that isn't commercially viable as 'pretentious' is the height of ignorance. Might as well throw out almost every novel written since the late 50s in that case. [Link]

Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 6:17PM if you were paying attention, which clearly you weren't, I was referring to the NEA which takes my tax dollars and gives them to artists like Robert Maplethorpe. If they were going to brilliant jazz musicians I wouldn't feel quite so bad. [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 10:11PM Where did you mention the NEA? 'Piss Christ' was partially funded by the NEA but you never mentioned it in your original post. You said 'artists supported by the community' which includes every writer who every received a government grant. In fact, the NEA has funded and awarded brilliant jazz artists from Sonny Rollins, Betty Carter to Andrew Hill not to mention other artists like Maurice Sendak, Billy Wilder, Jason Robards, Fats Domino, Philip Roth, Doc Watson, etc. Edited by - BlackSix on 9/20/2008 11:02:29 PM [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 9:55AM "maybe that's all that the industry needs to do. Feel good for a while... feel as if they have made a dent in it all" So, lie to themselves? How's that going to accomplish anything positive? I suspect it would just turn more and more people off legit avenues of acquisition. "the trap of the red herring fallacy ALWAYS trotted out by the piracy proponents/sympathizers:"you'll never stop ALL piracy" Not only won't you stop all of it, you'll never stop anywhere near enough of it to justify your efforts... In that respect it's very similar to the so-called "War On Drugs". Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/21/2008 9:58:04 AM [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 2:40PM NewRomancer wrote: "maybe that's all that the industry needs to do. Feel good for a while... feel as if they have made a dent in it all" So, lie to themselves? How's that going to accomplish anything positive? Click to expand Had you read the sentence that you quoted all the way until the end (sentences end with a period, that's how you can tell where the end is), you would have seen the answer to your question. [Link]
Gunzo Senior Member 1377 Posts 2/05	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 1:57AM Mike Quasar wrote: If they were going to brilliant jazz musicians I wouldn't feel quite so bad. Click to expand Unfortunately, art is art even when people like you hate it and say it isn't. And that's the beauty of it, the reaction from people is part of the art (that's why porn in art is always art, because it always sparks reactions from people calling it porn). Most people think jazz is crap btw... [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 4:16AM "I'm actually offering a realistic start for a plan of how to get ahead of the pirates once and for all." That's no answer, 'cause it won't happen. "The Industry" won't ever "catch up to", let alone "get ahead of" the "pirates". So your 'suggestion' still rings pointless. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 12:27PM Gunzo wrote: Most people think jazz is crap btw... Click to expand Define "most". [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 12:33PM NewRomancer wrote: That's no answer, 'cause it won't happen. "The Industry" won't ever "catch up to", let alone "get ahead of" the "pirates". Click to expand Thankfully, we have all of your guarantees. Otherwise we'd think it was speculation. But all of these absolutes in the statements you make have made it clear that you have indisputable proof for all of these claims. I assume you can post several links to back up each of your claims here. After all, it's what you ask of the rest of us every time we make any claims at all. I'll expect the links which prove that it will never happen in your next post. Thanks. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 1:13PM Name me one situation where "The Authorities" have ever caught up to "The Pirates".... Prohibition alone, or more recently, America's so-called "War On Drugs" (A colossal WOMBAT) are examples of how pointless the attempt even is.... "The authorities" can't ever actually stop their population doing ANYTHING their population really wants to do... So round and round it goes... and still there's no answer... and someone somewhere is downloading someones BRAND new release as you're reading this, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop it. So, maybe we should all just have a drink at the bar, and get back to talking about porn eh... Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/22/2008 1:14:12 PM [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 2:25PM NewRomancer wrote: Name me one situation where "The Authorities" have ever caught up to "The Pirates".... Click to expand There are countless situations where the authorities have caught up to the pirates. What you're talking about here is every pirate being caught. Sure, that may not happen. But some can be caught. And is it wrong to pursue some? There was recently a mainstream pirated DVD bust of a ring that operated out of Toronto and Hong Kong; they seized tens of millions of dollars worth of pirated DVD's. Are there still pirates out there? Of course. But will those DVD's be sold on the black market? No. So how is it a bad thing that they caught them? Prohibition alone, or more recently, America's so-called "War On Drugs" (A colossal WOMBAT) are examples of how pointless the attempt even is.... Click to expand Both of these examples are far from what we're talking about here. In both these cases (and far more so with the war on drugs), infinitely more evils were caused by pursuing the war than were being prevented. The amount of money in mis-allocated resources for the war on drugs is in a very tangible way responsible for most of the problems in society today. Much funding for it has come from previously important national or state-funded resources like education and health-care. The overzealous prosecutions of marijuana possession alone has created a permanent underclass of millions of Americans who will never be able to work a "normal" job due to their criminal history. The average jail term for drug trafficking, even as a first offense, is longer than the average jail term for rape. This includes the "softer" drugs like marijuana. Let's also not forget the racial component. A Black American caught with drugs is far, far more likely to serve jail time than a White American, helping only to increase the racial divide. The overzealous attack on the drug supplies "at their source" has caused the CIA to install puppet governments in other countries which have become some of the most brutal dictatorships the world has known, crushing the entire infrastructure of some formerly well-developed "second world" countries, reducing them to impoverished status. And that's just the stuff we can prove. Even worse are the conjectures, like the CIA introducing crack cocaine to black neighbourhoods in order to 1) shut down public support for groups like the Black Panthers, and 2) make it easier to throw more Black people in jail. The fastest growing cities in the US are all cities with state penitentiaries, meaning that the population growth is due to the ever-increasing prison population, and the vast majority of it can be blamed on drug convictions or crimes related to them (someone who can't get a job due to a previous drug conviction who now resorts to robbery, etc.). If the rate of incarceration in the United States continues to accelerate as it has over the last ten years, half of the American population will be behind bars by the year 2050. I just don't see how flooding a few torrent sites with bogus files would cause the racial divide to increase, the prisons to be flooded, or the economy and infrastructure of several foreign countries to be crushed (not to mention a large portion of their population to be murdered). Your comparison leaves much to be desired. (And I swear to Christ, if you ask for sources for every claim made here I'll freak the fuck out - look it up yourself, all of this information is easily accessible on the interweb). [edit: in the stat about the prison overflow by 2050, I initially wrote "if the rate continues as it has over the last ten years...". That was inaccurate. I meant to say "if the rate continues to accelerate as it has over the last ten years..."] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/22/2008 2:39:32 PM [Link]

NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 3:19PM "Are there still pirates out there? Of course. " Probably so many that even that bust did NOTHING to curb the trade in 'illegal' DVDs... so, there's no point in even bothering. "And I swear to Christ... I'll freak the fuck out" In the immortal words of George Carlin... Calm down, have some dip.... "What you're talking about here is every pirate being caught." No... I'm taking about even catching enough to make more than a mouse-farts worth of difference... In which case it's EXACTLY like the "War" on Drugs.... a waste of huge wodges of dosh, that accomplish not a single thing. Everyone who wants to get stone, still gets stoned... Everyone who wants a 'file' on the internet, gets it... "infinitely more evils were caused by pursuing the war than were being prevented" The "Digital Millennium Copyright Act" and other suggested documents that have followed it.... the fact that otherwise seeming intelligent people look to CHINA as a model for the future... that seem to be willing to cash in their privacy their right to the things they have bought (That's the major hole in DRM as I can see... if I've bought it, I own it, and should be able to watch/listen to it on whatever I want to... that ability invariably leads to 'piracy', cause if I can copy it for myself, I can also copy it for others for right or wrong... ) Seem to me to be WAY more 'evil' than any suggested impact from a few people downloading a few porno dvds they likely wouldn't have bothered buying or renting in the first place.... I guess that's where our mileage varies. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 3:53PM ^Hey I'm not talking about ANY of that jazz. Just overloading torrent sites. Take up those arguments with someone else. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 4:07PM Overloading Torrent sites hasn't worked in exactly the same way that the War on Drugs hasn't worked... And I see no reason to suspect that any change in the future will improve either one... "Take up those arguments" I'd rather engage in discussions rather than arguments.... One is less likely to spill ones pint during a discussion. ,-) [Link]
Tobin Deactivated User 450 Posts 11/07	Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 9:43PM What are you babbling about? It does not matter what pathetic self-deluding self-justifying arguments the pirates come up with, Governments have already decided that porn is intellectual property, and illicit copying is a form of theft, with legal remedies. All of your arguments have been already rejected by the lawmakers. The porn industry is a massive earner for the USA, and a good source of tax dollars. It is not going to take too much convincing for the Government to recognise that the present legal remedies are not working, and that piracy is hurting the US economy. They might just consider that any software that operates on or distributes porn files should have digital rights management enforcement capability. This would suit the industry very well. It fits in very nicely with their campaign against illicit copies of software. Spyware could become the norm. All software might have to be licensed to run under a particular operating system. All dvd media may have to carry a license, if it is to be played or transferred by their operating systems. Good for big biz, and the tax collector, bad for pirates, bad for the small software writers and producers. You accept that you have to pay for locks on your door, and the police force. We all pay for crime, even if the crooks never visit us. One way or another, the rest of us are going to have to pay for piracy. [Link]
licker Senior Member Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic 1141 Posts 8/03	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 6:51AM Tobin wrote: They might just consider that any software that operates on or distributes porn files should have digital rights management enforcement capability. This would suit the industry very well. Click to expand That would actually kill the industry stone cold dead, while having little to no effect on illegal copying. Lets hope they aren't stupid enough to try it. DRM only harms paying customers. Unlicensed copiers simply circumvent it and distribute clean copies. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 11:12AM "All of your arguments have been already rejected by the lawmakers" Which hasn't stopped a single person who wanted to download something from downloading it.... Laws that are unenforceable, are worthless and not worth adhering to. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 11:18AM NewRomancer wrote: Laws that are unenforceable, are worthless and not worth adhering to. Click to expand seriously? so intellectual property theft can be lumped into the same scofflaw category with: mandatory seatbelt DUI/DWI speeding mandatory bicycle helmet wow. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:01PM Each one of those 4 save lives.... Downloading files isn't killing or even hurting anyone [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:49PM NewRomancer wrote: Each one of those 4 save lives Click to expand and therein lies the rub: your subjective criteria (saves lives) for deciding which laws can be appropriately scoffed at. so then let intellectual property theft top this heap?: immigration control laws handgun registration laws shoplifting mandatory vehicle insurance [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:56PM This thread isn't talking about any of those in the least... If you want to talk about "piracy", then talk about "piracy"... The water is already muddy enough Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/23/2008 1:51:02 PM [Link]

arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 1:42PM NewRomancer wrote: This thread isn't talking about any of those in the least... If you want to talk about "piracy", then talk about "piracy"... The water is already muddy enough Click to expand ...says the individual who more than once has compared anti-piracy to the "war on drugs". SMH [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 1:52PM "SMH" Hope nothing comes loose.... EA seems to have improved their handle on the issue... "DRM only inhibits legitimate customers. It is with a confusing naivety that publishers continue to impose DRM on legally purchased copies, while knowing full well that the restrictions will be cracked on day one - as they were with Spore - making illegally downloaded copies DRM-free. The legitimate customer is treated as a potential criminal, while the actual criminal has a much improved product." http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/09/23/spore-buds-ea-backs-down-on-drm/ Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/23/2008 1:53:51 PM [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:04PM NewRomancer wrote:EA seems to have improved their handle on the issue... "DRM only inhibits legitimate customers. It is with a confusing naivety that publishers continue to impose DRM on legally purchased copies, while knowing full well that the restrictions will be cracked on day one - as they were with Spore - making illegally downloaded copies DRM-free. The legitimate customer is treated as a potential criminal, while the actual criminal has a much improved product." http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/09/23/spore-buds-ea-backs-down-on-drm/ Click to expand nice link (and subsequent edit). why the irrelevant focus on DRM? re-read what i already posted about DRM. maybe you need to shake loose of that fixation. EA (electronic arts) position on DRM doesn't mean they are pro-piracy. it merely means they aren't satisfied with DRM as a solution. last i checked, EA is still a contributing member of the ESA, and the ESA remains committed to anti-piracy: http://www.theesa.com/policy/antipiracy.asp got any more fallacies to construct? EDIT: BTW, i found it extremely amusing (and disingenuous) that you attempted to pass off the blogger's (john walker) comments as those of EA's position/handle on DRM. so much for a civilized discussion Edited by - arkdvd on 9/23/2008 2:10:12 PM [Link]
tricia_devereaux Evil Angel DVD Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:07PM New Romancer - Did you ACTUALLY read the article you posted a link to? Electronic Arts still has DRM on Spore. They just eased up on the restrictions a little bit. They know they're pissing off consumers, but they don't have a better solution yet. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:10PM "They just eased up on the restrictions a little bit." I'd say more than a little bit... guess that's relative. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:15PM I just wanted to point out that your post is misleading. EA's statement was, "We’ve received complaints from a lot of customers who we recognize and respect. We need to adapt our policy to accommodate our legitimate consumers." Your quoted statement was the opinion and writings of the author of the article. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:30PM Flash wrote: I just wanted to point out that your post is misleading. EA's statement was, "We’ve received complaints from a lot of customers who we recognize and respect. We need to adapt our policy to accommodate our legitimate consumers." Your quoted statement was the opinion and writings of the author of the article. Click to expand LOL. i pointed out the same thing. frank gibeau also said: “We assumed that consumers understand piracy is a huge problem. We have found that 75% of our consumers install and play any particular game on only one machine, and less than 1% ever try to play on more than three different machines.” http://articles.latimes.com/2008/09/20/business/fi-techblog20 so EA allows 5 installs instead of 3, and unlimited transfers = complete indictment of DRM. wow. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:56PM arkdvd wrote: LOL. i pointed out the same thing. Click to expand I saw that after I posted. I was writing my post while making breakfast so it took like 10 minutes to make my tiny post. I'm glad other people saw the problem too though. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:59PM "so EA allows 5 installs instead of 3, and unlimited transfers = complete indictment of DRM" Who said that? It would seem that less restrictions are better than more, especially if you don't want to piss off your customers.... At least, less restrictions gets my vote FWTW..... [Link]
Tobin Deactivated User 450 Posts 11/07	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 2:29AM When are they going to learn the only thing accomplished by shutting down a potential medium for piracy is severely crippling a user's rights and abilities? Besides, soon enough, someone will come out with a drive emulator that doesn't just emulate a drive, it simulates a drive (the difference being that the OS recognizes it literally as a physically-attached device, not just Windows explorer). DRM is no less of a myth than security. If something is secure something at one level, all it takes is for someone to go a level lower in the system. No matter how thick you make the doors on a bank vault, there will always be the possibility of someone with enough will-power and dynomite to break throught the doors. No matter how high you make a wall around your castle, there is always the possibility that someone will have enough will-power and wood to make a ladder that goes even higher...I think those examples are enough to extend the point. Once someone finally introduces a DRM scheme that successfully prevents piracy, doesn't invade my privacy and security, and doesn't severely cripple fair use; then I'll be ready to accept it. ...which means, I'll never accept it, because it is physically possible for these three things to coincide for more-than-obvious reasons. [Link]

mariemadison Member 57 Posts 2/04	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 9:23AM Is this true Mike? I had thought that PayPal stopped processing all types of adult products, in fact, my PayPal account got closed a few years ago for processing adult DVD's, which very much are 'hard goods'. And it still is stipulated in PayPal's 'Terms of Use' that adult products are prohibited. I've since opened a new PayPal account that I use for speciality items like Panties, or Toys, or signed copies of DVD's, but I don't use them in my Shopping Cart anymore, because I don't want PayPal to close my account without notice again. If it really is okay to process 'hard goods', does download to own clips count? Technically, once the file is downloaded, it becomes a 'hard good', and would then be allowed, right? Or wrong? PayPal has a long history of fucking over adult producers so I don't want to be a victim again. - Marie Madison Click to expand Marie Madison Media MikeSouth wrote: Paypal doesnt havent any problem with adult products as long as they are "hard goods" pardon the pun. they just dont do site memberships (they used to) But they are a bunch of cocksuckers. I signed up to take paypal after they had a booth at internext pimping themselves for....site memberships. A month later they just quit doing them...and I lost the paypal members. So FUCK paypal [Link]
mariemadison Member 57 Posts 2/04	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 9:57AM As an amateur without a distributor, I have more or less been forced into using 'Tube' Sites for promotion, because while I have a decent sized, and fiercely loyal following, I don't have the advertising dollars or market saturation in brick and mortars to allow it grow. With the glut of product hitting the market every week and without the support of a distributor, I have to take a very 'grass roots' approach just to get my stuff in front of people, and unfortunately, that leaves me with 'Tube Sites' just to get my stuff seen. It's a double edged sword for sure, as I am well aware that I can't charge people for something they are already getting for free, but it does bring a small percentage of new customers to my site, which is better than the 'nothing' alternative I have and at the very least, the end consumer is getting an 'official' scene that I have at least some control over the quality and presentation of. I believe that the business model of 'tube sites' is one destined to fail and I'm already seeing changes in many of the sites like Rude.com, and XGarden.com that are making shifts in their business model to try and reverse the trend of 'everything is free', because it's got to be effecting the advertisers - who are trying to get an audience going to a site for 'free porn' to then click their ad and buy something. It doesn't even sound like it would work... but yet, most of these 'tube sites' are still around. I have shot hundreds of scenes, and I'm now in a position that I have to give away 10% of them just to gain a few points of market share. It sucks, but if anyone has a better way for someone like me to stay visible in this market, I'm all ears. - Marie Madison Click to expand Marie Madison Media NewRomancer wrote: Not a claim as such... allow me to rephrase The best business model would be people using the internet, and file sharing these days, to their advantage.... Not trying to run from it, or thinking they can ever stop it. Not that I know much about business! (or anything else for that matter) Click to expand Marie Madison Media [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 12:12PM mariemadison wrote: If it really is okay to process 'hard goods', does download to own clips count? Click to expand i don't know the full spectrum of what constitutes "hard goods" to paypal, but adult content DVDs are OK. download to own clips are not OK. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 12:18PM mariemadison wrote: I have more or less been forced into using 'Tube' Sites for promotion... unfortunately, that leaves me with 'Tube Sites' just to get my stuff seen. Click to expand nothing wrong with using legal tube sites (meaning tube sites that use properly licensed content). continue to take full advantage of every creative marketing channel open to you. mariemadison wrote: It's a double edged sword for sure, as I am well aware that I can't charge people for something they are already getting for free, but it does bring a small percentage of new customers to my site, which is better than the 'nothing' alternative I have and at the very least, the end consumer is getting an 'official' scene that I have at least some control over the quality and presentation of. Click to expand why give away an entire scene? why not edit the scene into a provocative watermarked teaser with a hint of what surfers can expect at your website? [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 12:26PM Nice to see you posting here again Marie. [Link]
mariemadison Member 57 Posts 2/04	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 2:34PM nothing wrong with using legal tube sites (meaning tube sites that use properly licensed content). continue to take full advantage of every creative marketing channel open to you. Click to expand Well thanks for saying that, because I feel guilty sometimes about doing it, and always with apprehension as to whether I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face or not. why give away an entire scene? why not edit the scene into a provocative watermarked teaser with a hint of what surfers can expect at your website? Click to expand Well, I've been experimenting with it this year, and offering both on different sites. I can tell you, that when I upload a full scene, it gets usually 2 or 3 times the views as some of my 'trailers' or 'music videos'. So, if I'm posting a clip for the sole purpose of getting people to watch some of my work, then I'll take the higher numbers. I try and target the clip to my intended audience, for example, if I'm promoting a new DVD, I'll put up the trailer, then maybe a shorter, edited from it a month or so later, and then after the VOD numbers top out, I'll put up a complete scene and often times see another boost to the downloads and DVD sales. Something else I've been doing this year, is giving away a free DVD with any paid DVD order in my store. The free DVD's have been either older 'catalog' titles or like new 4 scene compilations, but they without question, have boosted my DVD sales in this economy. And my DVD sales aren't really worth even talking about. Like I've written previously, for the last 8 years I've been working in the adult entertainment industry, I've been surviving with a very 'grass roots' approach. Being 'Pro/Am' and on the East Coast, I've long ago given up on being a part of the 'West Coast Scene' and so I'll take any opportunity I can to just get a little of my work in front of people. - Marie Marie Madison Media [Link]
mariemadison Member 57 Posts 2/04	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 2:37PM Flash wrote: Nice to see you posting here again Marie. Click to expand Thanks Flash, it feels good to be back. - Marie [Link]
Tobin Deactivated User 450 Posts 11/07	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 3:30PM Marie, if you put out a series of g/g rimming, similar to your Kami Andrews vid, I'll be a regualar customer. [Link]
Gunzo Senior Member 1377 Posts 2/05	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 4:06PM killbillvol69 wrote: Define "most". Click to expand Most people want to be entertained, want music (things) to be simple and pleasant. And I don't count smooth jazz as jazz (although in rare cases, say Bob James and Earl Klugh, I can just barely accept it being a part of the less abused but and interesting concept of Fusion). In a survery our Mike Q would probably be one of the few wanting 'great jazz musicians' to be payed for by tax money. I mean, jazz musicians smoke weed all day... why should we pay for it? [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 4:43PM ^Wha? As far as I know, most people (in North America anyway), young, old, white, black, can all dig on some kind of jazz. Maybe they like the swing stuff. Maybe the like Miles. Maybe some Art Blakey and bebop is their thing. But I can't really think of all that many people who say: "Jazz! That's terrible!" People who like soft music, well there's plenty of jazz they can groove to. If you like a little more energy, well there's plenty of stuff like that too. Even most metalheads love jazz for a lot of its interesting time signatures. Shit, Bad Brains (the inventors of hardcore punk) actually started out as a jazz band. Besides, I'm lost at your point now. In your earlier post, you said 'most people think jazz is crap" in reference to Mike Q's comment about him being more ok with people receiving tax money for making jazz than for making the "Piss Christ", because he felt jazz is more artful and thus more deserving of the money. So I thought your point was that actually, most people wouldn't agree with him because in your opinion most people would actually prefer that the "Piss Christ" artist receive money than jazz artists. That's why I wondered what you meant when you said "most", because I would think that the number of people that would be happy to know that the "Piss Christ" artist received public funds would be smaller than the number of people who would be happy to hear that Branford Marsalis did. But now I have no idea what point you were trying to make. Can you explain? [Link]
Gunzo Senior Member 1377 Posts 2/05	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 4:56PM I guess every point in this thread is kind of lost by now... but yea... I guess jazz would be more welcome than other forms of art, but still, and that's my point, art is not something that should be defined by what is likeable by a majority. Conformity can never lead to evolution. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 5:02PM mariemadison wrote: Well, I've been experimenting with it this year, and offering both on different sites. I can tell you, that when I upload a full scene, it gets usually 2 or 3 times the views as some of my 'trailers' or 'music videos'. So, if I'm posting a clip for the sole purpose of getting people to watch some of my work, then I'll take the higher numbers. I try and target the clip to my intended audience, for example, if I'm promoting a new DVD, I'll put up the trailer, then maybe a shorter, edited from it a month or so later, and then after the VOD numbers top out, I'll put up a complete scene and often times see another boost to the downloads and DVD sales. Like I've written previously, for the last 8 years I've been working in the adult entertainment industry, I've been surviving with a very 'grass roots' approach. Being 'Pro/Am' and on the East Coast, I've long ago given up on being a part of the 'West Coast Scene' and so I'll take any opportunity I can to just get a little of my work in front of people. - Marie Click to expand understood. and it makes sense, in general. more people want to see the clips that offer ALL the goodies, instead of just a taste. but this is where scrutiny of the data (web metrics) comes in to play. 2 or 3 times the views doesn't necessarily translate into increased sales for you. increased exposure, certainly. but ultimately you are seeking out those surfers who are prepared to spend; the nagging question is: are tube site viewers/surfers truly potential buyers or your product, or just ad click revenue for the tube sites? advertisers who are seeing huge traffic but getting poor conversion rates are wising up. keep up your efforts and best of luck for continued success! [Link]
mariemadison Member 57 Posts 2/04	Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 6:22AM but this is where scrutiny of the data (web metrics) comes in to play. 2 or 3 times the views doesn't necessarily translate into increased sales for you. increased exposure, certainly. but ultimately you are seeking out those surfers who are prepared to spend; the nagging question is: are tube site viewers/surfers truly potential buyers or your product, or just ad click revenue for the tube sites? advertisers who are seeing huge traffic but getting poor conversion rates are wising up. keep up your efforts and best of luck for continued success! Click to expand You're absolutely right Ark, and this is the 'double edged sword' part I was referencing earlier. Sending 2 or 3 times the views doesn't ever equal '2 or 3 times' the sales, as by far MOST of the audience at the 'tube' sites are there for only one thing: free porn, and most don't convert to a sale in the immediate future. The main reason for me to use any Tube site is to simply get new people to see the work I'm doing. It's so hard anymore for anyone amateur or pro am to be seen, not like it was even 5 or 6 years ago when banner exchanges and TGP's actually worked. We all know how this industry revolves and constantly changes and we all have to 'roll with it' so to speak and find a way to make it work for us. Unfortunately, at least for now, the 'tube' sites are a major (and probably most importantly for amateurs like me) free way to get seen. Thanks for the kind words and for listening to me drone on about it. - Marie www.MarieMadison.com [Link]
licker Senior Member Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic 1141 Posts 8/03	Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 6:38AM mariemadison wrote: 5 or 6 years ago when ... TGP's actually worked. Click to expand I'm curious. Don't TGPs work anymore? They are the main way that I discover new sites to subscribe to. Is there simply too much competition? [Link]
mariemadison Member 57 Posts 2/04	Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 7:46AM licker wrote: mariemadison wrote: 5 or 6 years ago when ... TGP's actually worked. Click to expand I'm curious. Don't TGPs work anymore? They are the main way that I discover new sites to subscribe to. Is there simply too much competition? Click to expand Licker... well, maybe I mis spoke. They don't work for me anymore. I shouldn't have presented that they don't work at all. For me, it could be too much competition, or it could be that I don't have a membership site which seems the focus of the sites who use TGP's successfully. - Marie [Link]
Gabriella Cuntez Member Get Some Head In The Game 55 Posts 12/08	Posted - Dec 5 2008 : 7:11AM Those sites like *load.com and tube all seem to have old scenes or just trailers. They are not high quality like the good paysites. Plus, I can't tell if it's "stolen" because I never ever see content from quality pornmakers like Private or Evil Angel. Until reading these posts, I thought sites like load were legal sites that some porn companies gave sample content to in order to attract business to the primary site (like Freeones.com or something.) Sites with stolen content...from what I've heard...usually have full videos at high quality. Why waste time with tube and it's ilk when Evilangel.com and julesjordanvideo.com have tons of free trailers of the highest quality (both content and video quality)? And the trailers on these good sites are 3 to 5 minutes instead of 15 to 30 seconds. Tricia, if you have anything to do with the A Number One trailers on the evil angel website, I thank you heartily. They have sold me much much of your product and they're so good as their own little porn product that I've more than once been surprised with an orgasm just by watching them. [Mod edit: obscured the names of sites which provide illegally uploaded videos.]* Edited by - killbillvol69 on 12/5/2008 3:22:13 PM [Link]

Author

Post

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 3:35PM

While I see what you're getting at Mike, I think you may be overstating your point. Do we really want to call Michaelangelo a "drain on society" because he was commissioned to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel by the RC Church? I'm not sure I'd want to pass that kind of judgment, and I have a feeling you wouldn't either. But I could be wrong.
[edit: just noticed that this was my post #2257 - coincidence? I think not!

]
Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/20/2008 3:37:19 PM

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 4:19PM

KBV,
don't drink the kool aid. or at least not all of it.
you're dangerously close to being sucked into the trap of the red herring fallacy ALWAYS trotted out by the piracy proponents/sympathizers:
"you'll never stop ALL piracy"
of course not. but who is the ridiculous clown who foisted that challenge upon john doe producer of "brand x" or jane smith producer of "brand y"?
the red herring is that somehow the obtuse have appointed the content producer to be guardians of ALL digital media, instead of a willing defender of his/her own content. is adobe trying to protect photoshop or girlvana? is electronic arts trying to defend madden 09 or odd jobs 4? is microsoft fighting illegal distribution of windows vista or my neighbor's sex tapes?
you get the picture. don't fall for the okey doke logical fallacies.

[Link]

killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 4:36PM

^Whoa, hey, by no means am I falling into any traps or whatever else.
All I was doing was explaining that the idea Flash had come up with about five posts ago or so has in fact worked in practice in the real world, and is therefore not all that crazy sounding. The rest of the comments were only meant to couch it so that people don't think that this ONE idea, by itself, will solve all piracy problems.
Further, I was doing my best, as I have been whenever I've contributed to this thread so far, to stay out of the argument itself, and simply contribute various facts or stories that I felt were relevant, or challenge various claims that I felt were untrue. It is not my desire in any way to "join" the argument of whether or not illegally downloading is ok; everyone here knows that it is ADT's policy that no encouragement of illegal downloading is to be supported or encouraged or facilitated, and as a moderator I support that policy 100%. Most will know this from the many posts I've had to edit here in my first month as moderator, and in fact, the only reason I read this thread all the time is because it's the kind of place where it seems that information which runs counter to ADT's policy might be more likely to pop up. As such I make a habit of checking in on it whenever I can.
Before I became a mod, I ignored the thread completely because I simply wasn't interested in the discussion, as it seems incredibly roundabout; as I suggested a couple of pages ago, it reminds me very much of the Monty Python Argument sketch. The only reason I have contributed anything at all is because I'm the kind of guy who just can't seem to let untruths or misnomers go unchecked. It's a personal fault.
But again, none of my comments indicate me "falling" into the assumption that because ALL piracy can't be stopped, none of it should be.
If anything, I think that my last two posts before this one indicate that this temporary means of slowing down piracy might give the industry a boost during which they would be ahead of the piracy for a small time, allowing them to come up with better plans of what to do about it for the long term. So if someone was being particularly shrewd, they'd probably be able to figure out that I'm actually offering a realistic start for a plan of how to get ahead of the pirates once and for all.
Not that I'm taking sides. ;)
[edit: fucked up cutting and pasting different paragraphs into each other, fixed now. also, typos. fuckin' typos.]
Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/20/2008 4:39:48 PM

[Link]

BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 5:01PM

Bullshit, there were and are many great jazz musicians who couldn't make a living based on their music, not to mention painters, novelists and poets. To drag up 'Piss Christ' is a straw man, how about Cormac McCarthy, who didn't produce a commercially successful novel until 'All the Pretty Horses.' To dismiss all art that isn't commercially viable as 'pretentious' is the height of ignorance. Might as well throw out almost every novel written since the late 50s in that case.

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 6:17PM

if you were paying attention, which clearly you weren't, I was referring to the NEA which takes my tax dollars and gives them to artists like Robert Maplethorpe. If they were going to brilliant jazz musicians I wouldn't feel quite so bad.

[Link]

BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 10:11PM

Where did you mention the NEA? 'Piss Christ' was partially funded by the NEA but you never mentioned it in your original post. You said 'artists supported by the community' which includes every writer who every received a government grant.
In fact, the NEA has funded and awarded brilliant jazz artists from Sonny Rollins, Betty Carter to Andrew Hill not to mention other artists like Maurice Sendak, Billy Wilder, Jason Robards, Fats Domino, Philip Roth, Doc Watson, etc.

Edited by - BlackSix on 9/20/2008 11:02:29 PM

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 9:55AM

"maybe that's all that the industry needs to do. Feel good for a while... feel as if they have made a dent in it all"
So, lie to themselves? How's that going to accomplish anything positive?
I suspect it would just turn more and more people off legit avenues of acquisition.
"the trap of the red herring fallacy ALWAYS trotted out by the piracy proponents/sympathizers:"you'll never stop ALL piracy"
Not only won't you stop all of it, you'll never stop anywhere near enough of it to justify your efforts... In that respect it's very similar to the so-called "War On Drugs".

Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/21/2008 9:58:04 AM

[Link]

killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 2:40PM

Had you read the sentence that you quoted all the way until the end (sentences end with a period, that's how you can tell where the end is), you would have seen the answer to your question.

[Link]

Gunzo
Senior Member

1377 Posts
2/05

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 1:57AM

Unfortunately, art is art even when people like you hate it and say it isn't. And that's the beauty of it, the reaction from people is part of the art (that's why porn in art is always art, because it always sparks reactions from people calling it porn). Most people think jazz is crap btw...

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 4:16AM

"I'm actually offering a realistic start for a plan of how to get ahead of the pirates once and for all."
That's no answer, 'cause it won't happen. "The Industry" won't ever "catch up to", let alone "get ahead of" the "pirates". So your 'suggestion' still rings pointless.

[Link]

killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 12:27PM

Define "most".

[Link]

killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 12:33PM

Thankfully, we have all of your guarantees. Otherwise we'd think it was speculation. But all of these absolutes in the statements you make have made it clear that you have indisputable proof for all of these claims.
I assume you can post several links to back up each of your claims here. After all, it's what you ask of the rest of us every time we make any claims at all.
I'll expect the links which prove that it will never happen in your next post. Thanks.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 1:13PM

Name me one situation where "The Authorities" have ever caught up to "The Pirates"....
Prohibition alone, or more recently, America's so-called "War On Drugs" (A colossal WOMBAT) are examples of how pointless the attempt even is....
"The authorities" can't ever actually stop their population doing ANYTHING their population really wants to do...
So round and round it goes... and still there's no answer... and someone somewhere is downloading someones BRAND new release as you're reading this, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop it.
So, maybe we should all just have a drink at the bar, and get back to talking about porn eh...

Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/22/2008 1:14:12 PM

[Link]

killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 2:25PM

There are countless situations where the authorities have caught up to the pirates. What you're talking about here is every pirate being caught. Sure, that may not happen. But some can be caught. And is it wrong to pursue some?
There was recently a mainstream pirated DVD bust of a ring that operated out of Toronto and Hong Kong; they seized tens of millions of dollars worth of pirated DVD's. Are there still pirates out there? Of course. But will those DVD's be sold on the black market? No. So how is it a bad thing that they caught them?

Both of these examples are far from what we're talking about here. In both these cases (and far more so with the war on drugs), infinitely more evils were caused by pursuing the war than were being prevented. The amount of money in mis-allocated resources for the war on drugs is in a very tangible way responsible for most of the problems in society today. Much funding for it has come from previously important national or state-funded resources like education and health-care. The overzealous prosecutions of marijuana possession alone has created a permanent underclass of millions of Americans who will never be able to work a "normal" job due to their criminal history. The average jail term for drug trafficking, even as a first offense, is longer than the average jail term for rape. This includes the "softer" drugs like marijuana. Let's also not forget the racial component. A Black American caught with drugs is far, far more likely to serve jail time than a White American, helping only to increase the racial divide. The overzealous attack on the drug supplies "at their source" has caused the CIA to install puppet governments in other countries which have become some of the most brutal dictatorships the world has known, crushing the entire infrastructure of some formerly well-developed "second world" countries, reducing them to impoverished status. And that's just the stuff we can prove. Even worse are the conjectures, like the CIA introducing crack cocaine to black neighbourhoods in order to 1) shut down public support for groups like the Black Panthers, and 2) make it easier to throw more Black people in jail. The fastest growing cities in the US are all cities with state penitentiaries, meaning that the population growth is due to the ever-increasing prison population, and the vast majority of it can be blamed on drug convictions or crimes related to them (someone who can't get a job due to a previous drug conviction who now resorts to robbery, etc.). If the rate of incarceration in the United States continues to accelerate as it has over the last ten years, half of the American population will be behind bars by the year 2050.
I just don't see how flooding a few torrent sites with bogus files would cause the racial divide to increase, the prisons to be flooded, or the economy and infrastructure of several foreign countries to be crushed (not to mention a large portion of their population to be murdered).
Your comparison leaves much to be desired.
(And I swear to Christ, if you ask for sources for every claim made here I'll freak the fuck out - look it up yourself, all of this information is easily accessible on the interweb).
[edit: in the stat about the prison overflow by 2050, I initially wrote "if the rate continues as it has over the last ten years...". That was inaccurate. I meant to say "if the rate continues to accelerate as it has over the last ten years..."]
Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/22/2008 2:39:32 PM

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 3:19PM

"Are there still pirates out there? Of course. "
Probably so many that even that bust did NOTHING to curb the trade in 'illegal' DVDs... so, there's no point in even bothering.
"And I swear to Christ... I'll freak the fuck out"
In the immortal words of George Carlin... Calm down, have some dip....
"What you're talking about here is every pirate being caught."
No... I'm taking about even catching enough to make more than a mouse-farts worth of difference... In which case it's EXACTLY like the "War" on Drugs.... a waste of huge wodges of dosh, that accomplish not a single thing. Everyone who wants to get stone, still gets stoned... Everyone who wants a 'file' on the internet, gets it...
"infinitely more evils were caused by pursuing the war than were being prevented"
The "Digital Millennium Copyright Act" and other suggested documents that have followed it.... the fact that otherwise seeming intelligent people look to CHINA as a model for the future... that seem to be willing to cash in their privacy their right to the things they have bought (That's the major hole in DRM as I can see... if I've bought it, I own it, and should be able to watch/listen to it on whatever I want to... that ability invariably leads to 'piracy', cause if I can copy it for myself, I can also copy it for others for right or wrong... ) Seem to me to be WAY more 'evil' than any suggested impact from a few people downloading a few porno dvds they likely wouldn't have bothered buying or renting in the first place....
I guess that's where our mileage varies.

[Link]

killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 3:53PM

^Hey I'm not talking about ANY of that jazz. Just overloading torrent sites. Take up those arguments with someone else.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 4:07PM

Overloading Torrent sites hasn't worked in exactly the same way that the War on Drugs hasn't worked... And I see no reason to suspect that any change in the future will improve either one...
"Take up those arguments"
I'd rather engage in discussions rather than arguments....
One is less likely to spill ones pint during a discussion.
,-)

[Link]

Tobin
Deactivated User

450 Posts
11/07

Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 9:43PM

What are you babbling about? It does not matter what pathetic self-deluding self-justifying arguments the pirates come up with, Governments have already decided that porn is intellectual property, and illicit copying is a form of theft, with legal
remedies. All of your arguments have been already rejected by the lawmakers.
The porn industry is a massive earner for the USA, and a good source of tax
dollars. It is not going to take too much convincing for the Government to
recognise that the present legal remedies are not working, and that piracy
is hurting the US economy.
They might just consider that any software that operates on or distributes
porn files should have digital rights management enforcement capability.
This would suit the industry very well. It fits in very nicely
with their campaign against illicit copies of software. Spyware
could become the norm. All software might have to be licensed to run under a particular operating system. All dvd media may have to carry a license, if it is to be played or transferred by their operating systems. Good for
big biz, and the tax collector, bad for pirates, bad for the small software
writers and producers.
You accept that you have to pay for locks on your door, and the police
force. We all pay for crime, even if the crooks never visit us. One way or
another, the rest of us are going to have to pay for piracy.

[Link]

licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
1141 Posts
8/03

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 6:51AM

That would actually kill the industry stone cold dead, while having little to no effect on illegal copying. Lets hope they aren't stupid enough to try it.
DRM only harms paying customers. Unlicensed copiers simply circumvent it and distribute clean copies.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 11:12AM

"All of your arguments have been already rejected by the lawmakers"
Which hasn't stopped a single person who wanted to download something from downloading it....
Laws that are unenforceable, are worthless and not worth adhering to.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 11:18AM

seriously?
so intellectual property theft can be lumped into the same scofflaw category with:
mandatory seatbelt
DUI/DWI
speeding
mandatory bicycle helmet
wow.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:01PM

Each one of those 4 save lives....
Downloading files isn't killing or even hurting anyone

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:49PM

and therein lies the rub: your subjective criteria (saves lives) for deciding which laws can be appropriately scoffed at.
so then let intellectual property theft top this heap?:
immigration control laws
handgun registration laws
shoplifting
mandatory vehicle insurance

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:56PM

This thread isn't talking about any of those in the least... If you want to talk about "piracy", then talk about "piracy"...
The water is already muddy enough

Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/23/2008 1:51:02 PM

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 1:42PM

...says the individual who more than once has compared anti-piracy to the "war on drugs".
SMH

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 1:52PM

"SMH"
Hope nothing comes loose....
EA seems to have improved their handle on the issue...
"DRM only inhibits legitimate customers. It is with a confusing naivety that publishers continue to impose DRM on legally purchased copies, while knowing full well that the restrictions will be cracked on day one - as they were with Spore - making illegally downloaded copies DRM-free. The legitimate customer is treated as a potential criminal, while the actual criminal has a much improved product."
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/09/23/spore-buds-ea-backs-down-on-drm/

Edited by - NewRomancer on 9/23/2008 1:53:51 PM

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:04PM

nice link (and subsequent edit).
why the irrelevant focus on DRM? re-read what i already posted about DRM. maybe you need to shake loose of that fixation.
EA (electronic arts) position on DRM doesn't mean they are pro-piracy. it merely means they aren't satisfied with DRM as a solution. last i checked, EA is still a contributing member of the ESA, and the ESA remains committed to anti-piracy: http://www.theesa.com/policy/antipiracy.asp
got any more fallacies to construct?
EDIT: BTW, i found it extremely amusing (and disingenuous) that you attempted to pass off the blogger's (john walker) comments as those of EA's position/handle on DRM.
so much for a civilized discussion
Edited by - arkdvd on 9/23/2008 2:10:12 PM

[Link]

tricia_devereaux
Evil Angel DVD

Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous?
4283 Posts
4/00

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:07PM

New Romancer - Did you ACTUALLY read the article you posted a link to?
Electronic Arts still has DRM on Spore. They just eased up on the restrictions a little bit.
They know they're pissing off consumers, but they don't have a better solution yet.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:10PM

"They just eased up on the restrictions a little bit."
I'd say more than a little bit... guess that's relative.

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:15PM

I just wanted to point out that your post is misleading. EA's statement was, "We’ve received complaints from a lot of customers who we recognize and respect. We need to adapt our policy to accommodate our legitimate consumers." Your quoted statement was the opinion and writings of the author of the article.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:30PM

LOL.
i pointed out the same thing.
frank gibeau also said:
“We assumed that consumers understand piracy is a huge problem. We have found that 75% of our consumers install and play any particular game on only one machine, and less than 1% ever try to play on more than three different machines.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/09/20/business/fi-techblog20
so EA allows 5 installs instead of 3, and unlimited transfers = complete indictment of DRM.
wow.

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:56PM

I saw that after I posted. I was writing my post while making breakfast so it took like 10 minutes to make my tiny post. I'm glad other people saw the problem too though.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 2:59PM

"so EA allows 5 installs instead of 3, and unlimited transfers = complete indictment of DRM"
Who said that?
It would seem that less restrictions are better than more, especially if you don't want to piss off your customers....
At least, less restrictions gets my vote FWTW.....

[Link]

Tobin
Deactivated User

450 Posts
11/07

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 2:29AM

When are they going to learn the only thing accomplished by shutting down a *potential* medium for piracy is severely crippling a user's rights and abilities? Besides, soon enough, someone will come out with a drive emulator that doesn't just emulate a drive, it *simulates* a drive (the difference being that the OS recognizes it literally as a physically-attached device, not just Windows explorer).
DRM is no less of a myth than security. If something is secure something at one level, all it takes is for someone to go a level lower in the system. No matter how thick you make the doors on a bank vault, there will always be the possibility of someone with enough will-power and dynomite to break throught the doors. No matter how high you make a wall around your castle, there is always the possibility that someone will have enough will-power and wood to make a ladder that goes even higher...I think those examples are enough to extend the point.
Once someone finally introduces a DRM scheme that successfully prevents piracy, doesn't invade my privacy and security, and doesn't severely cripple fair use; then I'll be ready to accept it. ...which means, I'll never accept it, because it is physically possible for these three things to coincide for more-than-obvious reasons.

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mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 9:23AM

Is this true Mike? I had thought that PayPal stopped processing all types of adult products,
in fact, my PayPal account got closed a few years ago for processing adult DVD's, which
very much are 'hard goods'. And it still is stipulated in PayPal's 'Terms of Use' that adult
products are prohibited.
I've since opened a new PayPal account that I use for speciality items like Panties, or Toys,
or signed copies of DVD's, but I don't use them in my Shopping Cart anymore, because I don't
want PayPal to close my account without notice again.
If it really is okay to process 'hard goods', does download to own clips count? Technically, once
the file is downloaded, it becomes a 'hard good', and would then be allowed, right?
Or wrong?
PayPal has a long history of fucking over adult producers so I don't want to be a victim again.
- Marie Madison

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Marie Madison Media

mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 9:57AM

As an amateur without a distributor, I have more or less been forced into using 'Tube' Sites for promotion,
because while I have a decent sized, and fiercely loyal following, I don't have the advertising dollars or
market saturation in brick and mortars to allow it grow. With the glut of product hitting the market every
week and without the support of a distributor, I have to take a very 'grass roots' approach just to get my
stuff in front of people, and unfortunately, that leaves me with 'Tube Sites' just to get my stuff seen.
It's a double edged sword for sure, as I am well aware that I can't charge people for something they are
already getting for free, but it does bring a small percentage of new customers to my site, which is
better than the 'nothing' alternative I have and at the very least, the end consumer is getting an 'official'
scene that I have at least some control over the quality and presentation of.
I believe that the business model of 'tube sites' is one destined to fail and I'm already seeing changes in
many of the sites like Rude.com, and XGarden.com that are making shifts in their business model to try
and reverse the trend of 'everything is free', because it's got to be effecting the advertisers - who are
trying to get an audience going to a site for 'free porn' to then click their ad and buy something. It doesn't
even sound like it would work... but yet, most of these 'tube sites' are still around.
I have shot hundreds of scenes, and I'm now in a position that I have to give away 10% of them just to gain
a few points of market share. It sucks, but if anyone has a better way for someone like me to stay visible
in this market, I'm all ears.
- Marie Madison

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Marie Madison Media

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arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 12:12PM

i don't know the full spectrum of what constitutes "hard goods" to paypal, but adult content DVDs are OK.
download to own clips are not OK.

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arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 12:18PM

nothing wrong with using legal tube sites (meaning tube sites that use properly licensed content). continue to take full advantage of every creative marketing channel open to you.

why give away an entire scene? why not edit the scene into a provocative watermarked teaser with a hint of what surfers can expect at your website?

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 12:26PM

Nice to see you posting here again Marie.

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mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 2:34PM

Well thanks for saying that, because I feel guilty sometimes about doing it, and always with apprehension as to whether I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face or not.

Well, I've been experimenting with it this year, and offering both on different sites. I can tell you, that when I upload
a full scene, it gets usually 2 or 3 times the views as some of my 'trailers' or 'music videos'. So, if I'm posting a clip
for the sole purpose of getting people to watch some of my work, then I'll take the higher numbers. I try and target
the clip to my intended audience, for example, if I'm promoting a new DVD, I'll put up the trailer, then maybe a shorter,
edited from it a month or so later, and then after the VOD numbers top out, I'll put up a complete scene and often times
see another boost to the downloads and DVD sales.
Something else I've been doing this year, is giving away a free DVD with any paid DVD order in my store. The free DVD's have been either older 'catalog' titles or like new 4 scene compilations, but they without question, have boosted my DVD sales in this economy. And my DVD sales aren't really worth even talking about.
Like I've written previously, for the last 8 years I've been working in the adult entertainment industry, I've been surviving with a very 'grass roots' approach. Being 'Pro/Am' and on the East Coast, I've long ago given up on being a part of the 'West Coast Scene' and so I'll take any opportunity I can to just get a little of my work in front of people.
- Marie
Marie Madison Media

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mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 2:37PM

Thanks Flash, it feels good to be back.
- Marie

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Tobin
Deactivated User

450 Posts
11/07

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 3:30PM

Marie, if you put out a series of g/g rimming, similar to your Kami Andrews vid, I'll be a regualar customer.

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Gunzo
Senior Member

1377 Posts
2/05

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 4:06PM

Most people want to be entertained, want music (things) to be simple and pleasant. And I don't count smooth jazz as jazz (although in rare cases, say Bob James and Earl Klugh, I can just barely accept it being a part of the less abused but and interesting concept of Fusion).
In a survery our Mike Q would probably be one of the few wanting 'great jazz musicians' to be payed for by tax money. I mean, jazz musicians smoke weed all day... why should we pay for it?

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killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 4:43PM

^Wha?
As far as I know, most people (in North America anyway), young, old, white, black, can all dig on some kind of jazz. Maybe they like the swing stuff. Maybe the like Miles. Maybe some Art Blakey and bebop is their thing. But I can't really think of all that many people who say: "Jazz! That's terrible!"
People who like soft music, well there's plenty of jazz they can groove to. If you like a little more energy, well there's plenty of stuff like that too. Even most metalheads love jazz for a lot of its interesting time signatures. Shit, Bad Brains (the inventors of hardcore punk) actually started out as a jazz band.
Besides, I'm lost at your point now. In your earlier post, you said 'most people think jazz is crap" in reference to Mike Q's comment about him being more ok with people receiving tax money for making jazz than for making the "Piss Christ", because he felt jazz is more artful and thus more deserving of the money. So I thought your point was that actually, most people wouldn't agree with him because in your opinion most people would actually prefer that the "Piss Christ" artist receive money than jazz artists.
That's why I wondered what you meant when you said "most", because I would think that the number of people that would be happy to know that the "Piss Christ" artist received public funds would be smaller than the number of people who would be happy to hear that Branford Marsalis did.
But now I have no idea what point you were trying to make. Can you explain?

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Gunzo
Senior Member

1377 Posts
2/05

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 4:56PM

I guess every point in this thread is kind of lost by now... but yea... I guess jazz would be more welcome than other forms of art, but still, and that's my point, art is not something that should be defined by what is likeable by a majority. Conformity can never lead to evolution.

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arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Sep 24 2008 : 5:02PM

mariemadison wrote:
Well, I've been experimenting with it this year, and offering both on different sites. I can tell you, that when I upload a full scene, it gets usually 2 or 3 times the views as some of my 'trailers' or 'music videos'. So, if I'm posting a clip for the sole purpose of getting people to watch some of my work, then I'll take the higher numbers. I try and target the clip to my intended audience, for example, if I'm promoting a new DVD, I'll put up the trailer, then maybe a shorter, edited from it a month or so later, and then after the VOD numbers top out, I'll put up a complete scene and often times
see another boost to the downloads and DVD sales.
Like I've written previously, for the last 8 years I've been working in the adult entertainment industry, I've been surviving with a very 'grass roots' approach. Being 'Pro/Am' and on the East Coast, I've long ago given up on being a part of the 'West Coast Scene' and so I'll take any opportunity I can to just get a little of my work in front of people.
- Marie
Click to expand

understood. and it makes sense, in general. more people want to see the clips that offer ALL the goodies, instead of just a taste.
but this is where scrutiny of the data (web metrics) comes in to play. 2 or 3 times the views doesn't necessarily translate into increased sales for you. increased exposure, certainly. but ultimately you are seeking out those surfers who are prepared to spend; the nagging question is: are tube site viewers/surfers truly potential buyers or your product, or just ad click revenue for the tube sites? advertisers who are seeing huge traffic but getting poor conversion rates are wising up.
keep up your efforts and best of luck for continued success!

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mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04

Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 6:22AM

You're absolutely right Ark, and this is the 'double edged sword' part I was referencing earlier. Sending 2 or 3 times the views doesn't ever
equal '2 or 3 times' the sales, as by far MOST of the audience at the 'tube' sites are there for only one thing: free porn, and most don't
convert to a sale in the immediate future.
The main reason for me to use any Tube site is to simply get new people to see the work I'm doing. It's so hard anymore for anyone amateur
or pro am to be seen, not like it was even 5 or 6 years ago when banner exchanges and TGP's actually worked. We all know how this industry
revolves and constantly changes and we all have to 'roll with it' so to speak and find a way to make it work for us. Unfortunately, at least for now,
the 'tube' sites are a major (and probably most importantly for amateurs like me) free way to get seen.
Thanks for the kind words and for listening to me drone on about it.
- Marie
www.MarieMadison.com

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licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
1141 Posts
8/03

Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 6:38AM

I'm curious. Don't TGPs work anymore? They are the main way that I discover new sites to subscribe to. Is there simply too much competition?

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mariemadison
Member

57 Posts
2/04

Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 7:46AM

Licker... well, maybe I mis spoke. They don't work for me anymore. I shouldn't have presented that they don't work at all. For me, it could be
too much competition, or it could be that I don't have a membership site which seems the focus of the sites who use TGP's successfully.
- Marie

[Link]

Gabriella Cuntez
Member

Get Some Head In The Game
55 Posts
12/08

Posted - Dec 5 2008 : 7:11AM

Those sites like ***load.com and ***tube all seem to have old scenes or just trailers. They are not high quality like the good paysites. Plus, I can't tell if it's "stolen" because I never ever see content from quality pornmakers like Private or Evil Angel. Until reading these posts, I thought sites like ***load were legal sites that some porn companies gave sample content to in order to attract business to the primary site (like Freeones.com or something.) Sites with stolen content...from what I've heard...usually have full videos at high quality. Why waste time with ***tube and it's ilk when Evilangel.com and julesjordanvideo.com have tons of free trailers of the highest quality (both content and video quality)? And the trailers on these good sites are 3 to 5 minutes instead of 15 to 30 seconds.
Tricia, if you have anything to do with the A Number One trailers on the evil angel website, I thank you heartily. They have sold me much much of your product and they're so good as their own little porn product that I've more than once been surprised with an orgasm just by watching them.
[Mod edit: obscured the names of sites which provide illegally uploaded videos.]
Edited by - killbillvol69 on 12/5/2008 3:22:13 PM

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