God I have heard the above posters comments ad naseam. truth is that your free porn will eventually evaporate most adult sites are going streaming only and will soon be encrypted streaming those who do manage to rip the video stream will soon be finding that their username and ip addy is being encoded into the stream and their credit cards will be billed accordingly when they repost the copyrighted content. so these content thieves are fucking the users as well Thank Jules Jordan and others in porn who turn a blind eye to what their business partners do so long as the checks dont bounce. Jules say tubes are bad and he has spent all this money fighting piracy then he writes a check, a big one, every month to the owners of the biggest pirate sites on earth....Theres logic that I just dont get.
You really have no clue how these apps work, do you? Steam - Free download, serves as an eCommerce and community/social networking (lite) application. Its primary purpose is to deliver content that you PAY for, with a DRM-esque model. No Steam ID, your game won't operate. iTunes - Free download, serves as an eCommerce engine, lightweight communnity/social networking (reviews mainly) and as a utility for organizing media, transferring to media player, etc. Neither of your examples offer any content in and of themselves. They serve as portals for content acquisition. You still BUY content via these portals, they just help to push and manage the content you buy.
With all due respect, you're old. That is not an insult. I don't think you have a grip on how good hackers are at making tools to beat encryption. It will take a matter of months before this new tech is hacked, the protection stripped, and the streaming videos have been reformatted and reposted on tube sites. Worse, the tools to hack your new tech will be free and easily downloadable in seconds. Tech will not save you. Tech will only continue to hurt you. The Signal guys in my unit are always stressing that to us during security briefings. There's no such thing as perfect encryption. If you can decode it, so can the enemy.
Net neutrality legislation is coming and it is a major game changer, with every single US broadband provider ready to put 5 gig/month caps on even terrestrial lines, with per gig surcharges for overages. Unless the pirates learn to steal broadband, downloading gigs of stuff per hour will no longer be free.
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 11:55PM
im unoffendable trust me LOL but what I am is savvy you think it cant be done realistically....id suggest you have a look at the playstation 3 you can copy the game but it wont play, you can copy a protected bluray disk but it wont play...and the PS3 will lock you out until you contact sony and have it restored. then you manage to circumvent the encrypted streaming and rip it anyway.....well the ip addy you used to download it and your username are encoded into every single frame of that video you post it to a tube site or on usenet....I find it and hit your card with a penalty fee....its coming bro...every adult site will be using it too.
^^A lot more people would not give their credit card info if that was the case. Which would end up hurting the industry as well. That or they would get one of those prepaid debi/credit cards to do all of their transactions. Any way you look at it a criminal or a hacker will find a way to get around the "system" in play. There is no such thing as a perfect system. *****The Dr. of Nasty*****
I really think DRM is a useless effort on the part of hollywood, porn and the software industry. There are so many different ways to get around it. You make it IP based? Easy, the pirates will start trading IP addy spoofing apps that will make it impossible to trace porn to the buyer. Basically, if your media is encoded to look for a software or hardware-based encryption key before it will play, someone will figure it out and come up with software emulators and keygen services that fake those keys. This piracy tech already exists and has proven to be very difficult to thwart in the DishTV and most online gaming networks. It's an arms race and I seriously doubt the porn industry can afford an arms race if Hollywood and the Software industry can't. Microsoft has far deeper pockets than all of the porn distributors combined and even they can't keep their software secure. Their XBOX Live gaming service goes through security purges quarterly but the hackers just find new ways around the system. The PS3/PSP anti-copy/DRM methods get cracked all the time. The PSP has no less than a dozen custom firmware systems out there that will let you play any game ever released, defeating all DRM. Same for the PS3. Some are hardware based hacks but they exist and support a thriving piracy market under the guise of calling it "homebrew." The only way to combat piracy is when the pirates have to pay for their internet access in a metered fashion. Nobody wins in that scenario...other than the ISP's. And lets face it...how much of this free porn is downloaded by kids using mommy and daddy's unfiltered broadband in the first place? But it doesn't matter...if porn is spending their money on anti-piracy DRM measures, thats money that isn't being spent on better pay for better performers, better directors, innovations in the craft or whatever. Every penny that goes somewhere other than in improving the stroke value of porn is wasted money and thats the real price we all pay.
But you can strip a Blu-ray disk off its copy protection and play it on the PS3, easily. There is no locking out going on. Where did you hear that? A copied Blu-ray may just not play and that's it. Games on the PS3 haven't been hacked yet just because it's not feasible to copy Blu-ray media yet. And the PS3 wasn't popular enough for hackers to be tempted to crack it. Microsoft on the other hand does lock out users who run copies of games from their online services. But this is just online, they could still play copied games offline. And how exactly is this of help to the porn industry? This streaming-only model you talk about, let's assume for a second that it works and hackers aren't able to crack it. Will this bring more subscribers to paysites or will there be less? Even if every paysite on this planet adopts this model, will there be more or less? Even with millions of pirated movies and scenes still floating around the net and users' harddrives full with terabytes worth of porn, more subscribers or less? I've seen one paysite so far that chose to do streaming only and guess what I did first? Cancel my subscription. I'm never gonna join them again I have enough porn to last for years if not decades so I really don't need to put up with another pointless attempt of the industry to screw its customers.
I’ve been wondering why was it that a high profile website as adultfriendfinder would basically sponsor tube8, instead of having their ads on legit porn sites. Then I discovered that adultfriendfinder was owned by Penthouse which may explain a lot of things… Anyway, the question that bugs me is why internet porn businesses don’t move to an ad-based business model instead of fighting a lost battle for the lost cause of selling the content itself?
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 7:33AM
There are a few sites I really like and wish there were more of in terms of quality on the net: Abbywinters, Kissmegirl and Ifeelmyself. Some Kink.com stuff as well. They mostly do a good job of keeping their stuff off the tubes as well.
Sorry I dont have all day to spend writing responses back and forth to Billy Watson and Mike South, apparently they have way too much time on their hands. I've given Mike South way too much traffic for the week, why dont you try writing about Haiti or something Mike?.. i've said what I have to say, if you dont like it....I really dont care....I face the same problems that all copyright owners face, i'm not even sure that Mike South or Billy Watson own any copyrights. I have an email if anyone wants to contact me instead of showboating on message boards, all you have to do is click the little message icon on my post.
So you are saying that if porn offers a free, no cost distribution vehicle for their content, a 'portal' that allows you buy your porn that way as opposed to paying for it individually on various websites or retail store, this will stop pirates from taking their stuff for free? I don't follow your rationale. I already pointed out that iTunes/Steam don't offer any of your "services related to content instead of content" by itself. They offer services related to content IN ADDITION TO content for sale. It's not an -OR-, its an -AND-. Are you making a claim that iTunes and Steam have somehow reduced piracy of the content offered through their services? Edited by - lubenluv on 1/20/2010 12:10:58 PM
I would agree if you could control the hardware, as the Sony does with the PS3. But you don't. Once that data is transferred to pirate hardware you have a problem. It is far easier to modify software than hardware. If you were manufacturing the computers that people were using to download content you'd be in great shape. If you created the operating systems they used, you'd be in decent shape. But since you only control the media that is being played, you'll have a tough time keeping it safe. Simply stated, the Sony model will not apply to porn because Sony controls the hardware and software.
Yes they have been, for over a year now. Sony has released dozens of firmware upgrades to try and stop the pirates and each time, these are cracked themselves within weeks of an update. There are hundreds of YouTube videos showing even a monkey how to do it, step by step, with convenient links posted to the software you need to download and stick on a USB key. Both Sony and Microsoft do exhibit a greater degree of anti-piracy capabilities with their PSN and Live networks, respectively. However, until/unless porn goes interactive, this isn't relevant.
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 12:56PM
dont flatter yourself boy your name doesnt bring me any traffic I have contacted you and your suggestion was do a bit on tube site...hello where have you been this is a bit on tube sites. and if you knew squat about copyright law you would know that copyright legally exists the instant you publish something face it bro...yer a sell out.
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 1:02PM
ps3 games have only been cracked if you take a soldering iron to your ps3 ip spoofing wont work, I already employ protection against that and it works Most websites wont accept giftcards or prepaid cards.... I used to think like you but after what I have seen recently...not any more. It can be done and it will be done. There may be a few people that can manage to steal it but it will require a lot more effort (like modding your ps3 moherboard) and the newest content wont make it to tube sites so eventually they will fall by the wayside. Meantime the weak will die off and the strong will survive and become stronger, specially in niche markets. You may not like it but its gonna come to pass. Im just sayin.....
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 1:05PM
ya thats gonna happen...tell me who exactly is going to buy ads on a porn site?
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 1:08PM
Patriotic Sentinel wrote:not exactly accurate check out HDCP, it isnt being used to its potential yet....yet but the potential is there and every new video card, monitor and OS is compliant with this hardware/software standard
Hey look, technology is always changing, so if you think you've got a fool-proof way to do it be my guest. I'm very much against DRM because I think it limits my use of content I legally purchase. If you make it too difficult for me to download and enjoy your stuff on any media player I want, I'll go to someone else to get similar content. Because in porn, there is always similar content. Unlike in music and gaming, which enjoy mainstream motivators like peer pressure. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this as it would represent an invention that has far-reaching implications well beyond porn.
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 1:11PM
Although I'm not advocating piracy, I think there's a lot of over-exaggeration (akin to RIAA) of piracy's affect of industry. I understand there are a lot of effort and jobs at stake here, but to be nonobjective and unrealistic doesn't help or solve the problems. All the brainwashing of porn industry as "recession proof" is a myth, hopefully dispelled, because this would entail that the consumer income/non-porn-expenditures have kept steady or increased. Throw in the economy, unemployment, and cost of living raises and I don't see how one can argue that piracy has more impact than any of these factors (I hope people remember the stories of average Americans choosing between x or y is real - where do you think porn is within their hierarchy of needs?). Q: Hypothetically, what would be more beneficial to the porn industry (financially speaking), a 30% reduction in piracy or 30% improvement of economy? Also, as we have seen with the music industry, many companies have succeed while many others were finger pointing. Where would Apple be if they believed the RIAA BS? In this sense, porn (as a whole) has been no different than GM in 1). producing crap that many consumers don't want to buy 2). not kept up with the times 3). stayed ahead of the curve (where was porn's Netflix). I only say this cause, after many in the industry put all their eggs in the "anti-piracy" basket, without significantly addressing improving products/services/value and other factors, at the end of the day, they will still be failing. Since I like the industry too much, I don't want this to occur.
Good insight -- a lot of porn is crap, and you're seeing an interesting transition with the business keeping up with the times. The internet is making it very, very easy for the end user and producer to communicate...never before heard of in this business. If I could choose, gimme a 30% reduction in piracy any day. Shit, just make it harder to get free porn...Brazzers make it just too easy. I've said it a 100 times. Remember Kazaa and Limewire porn? You had to DL, it took a long time, and you never *really* knew what you were DLing -- a scene or a virus. Now it's push and play. With end user reviews as well. And I'm not so sure Apple is a good example here. They're certainly not a music company. They're a hardware company with a highly effective distribution network. I think The Wanted List was an attempt at porn's Netflix. I think there's issues with obscenity via the US mails that hinders that business model.
I'm making time Jules. I want everyone to know what it is you're doing. You're making it easier, too, with all your intelligent insight...just like these highly intelligent remarks. Imagine Steven Spielberg inking a deal with Pirate Bay. Imagine the head of Sony BMG working with Napster back in the day, when Napster was a free-for-all. While I hate comparing Jules Jordan to any of these guys, he's doing just that. Keep up the good work, Jules. And the smart comments.
That's dated information. Originally, hackers used modchips and mod boards to replace the circuitry that looked for disc-based DRM. But with the arms race I talked about earlier, Sony and others started updating their firmware to detect these mods and make the machines unusable. So, realizing that it was these firmware updates that was clobbering their hacks, the hackers targeted the firmware update processes. The result is that you can now play ripped/downloaded PS3/PSP games without ever having to open your machine. You do it via hijacked and modified firmware. The fact that the machines allowed remote updates of the firmware is the exploit that the hackers attacked. In a twist of irony, Sony changed their hardware boards on subsequent releases of the product to attempt to shut down hacked firmware by insisting on a run-time check of the board to see their own "modchip." That too has since been overridden by the hackers. The PSPGo, the successor to the PSP released only a few months ago, is already cracked and capable of running ISO copies of the games -AND- hacks of the Playstation Network games. Their whole model is fucked. For HDCP, which you mention, this too has already been cracked since it relies on the use of keys, albeit 40 (I think) or more secret keys. Hackers will manage to get keys from various devices (or else through leaks), but the HDCP specification allows for remote updates to the allowed keys of various HDCP devices. Thus any key that's distributed across the net or in a fake product will be disallowed, thwarting brute-force spoofing....but similar to Sony's failed attempts, this remote update procedure will be the gateway to nullify the protection. There are already websites showing how to defeat HDCP handshaking by "soldering some wires." This is how it starts...but it will gravitate towards plug-in bridge-and-divert boxes (HDMI in/HDMI out for pass-thru, 3rd outputs for pirating the signal in-transit) and then outright firmware modifications. Rinse and repeat. Now again, I recognize you are a smart man and have smart guys working with you on this....I just don't hold out hope for a DRM method that does anything other than make it a pain for me to buy and watch your stuff or proves to be a complete waste of effort.
It's a problem of time. Hackers have way more than developers. Even if it takes the same amount of time to hack an encryption as it took to create it, the lifespan of the medium in question is likely to be much longer than both. Example: Let's say the console life of a PS3 is 6 years. If it takes 2 years to make the PS3 crypto, and 2 years to hack it you have 4 years of hacked machines running pirated ware. This is why I think Mike South is using the "old" thinking. You can't win this thing with some new tech, you need a NEW BUSINESS MODEL. In the end tech is a stalemate with the built in house edge going to the hackers.
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 2:52PM
The point isnt that I can stop everyone the point is I can keep it manageable. With the current models it isnt manageable. With coming models it will be, and the fact that a lot of porn companies have already cut release schedules or gone outta biz means you can either watch old porn or play by the new rules....the days of using your media player to play your porn are coming to an end..... The only viewers I will likely lose werent customers anyway.
So I return to the initial question: What is your "Plan B" if all your vids STILL end up on tube/upload sites? Have you seriously considered the possibility that you may need a "Plan B"?
Kink are trying to pull this off, too. I've spent hundreds of dollars on their shoots, but I've yet to watch a single live show. Porn is something I purchase to consume it when I feel like it, not when a company feels like streaming it.
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MikeSouth Deactivated User
511 Posts 11/02
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 3:17PM
im not talking live shows im talking stream it when you want it and you could even be able to save it but if you post it elsewhere thats when yer gonna get bit. as for plan B...this is plan B Plan A clearly isnt working The only people this will really piss off are the ones stealing it anyway.....
For as long as I can download it, too, fine with me. I don't always have internet access, so a portable porn stash on a laptop is sometimes the only way to go.
In the interest of getting some concrete answers/solutions, I e-mailed Bramm_Brazzers to participate in this thread. All I want is to have control over my content, no different than anyone else here who takes pride in their work. I don't want to have to scour every tube site daily. It feels like a fisherman who has to catch and release the same fish over and over again. I was able to reason with a different member's board that had hundreds of links to my updates on their site. It had been going on for years....years! The admin people were very helpful and took down everything. Does it help? I'm not sure. But it helps me feel that I regained a little control over my universe. They were nice. I was nice. That's how I hope things can be done without having to threaten, cajole, berate, or DMCA-to-death. I hope Bramm can give some input.
Herein lies the issue. I don't blame the end user at all about this; in fact, there's no reason why, if they're paying for it, they can't keep it. A lot of my business associates have tried the streaming solution, wherein they can stream any movie from the members' area on demand -- just no download to a hard drive. In each instance the member backlash was so severe the sites discontinued that practice. Edited by - billywatson on 1/20/2010 3:45:51 PM
^ Not that I'd wish ill on any of your associates, but I'm glad things turned out this way. It's the same issue as with current DRM. After I payed for it, let me keep it and back it up to as many hard-drives as I like. That's why they call it 'download to own'.
Stream-only will make people feel ripped off. I hadn't thought about that, and it's a good point. If you buy Shrek 2, you get to keep it and people are used to that type of transaction. Change it to something where they have to keep paying over and over to watch one scene and they will probably revolt.
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 4:33PM
I didn't mean to imply that Apple is a 1:1 analog or a comparable example production (because you're right that they distribute and not produce). I primarily included Apple because in a time of massive finger pointing (i.e., Napster, Kazaa...) and many in the industry attributed the bad sales to piracy, Apple came in and proved that business can be hugely successful by merely updating and implementing a new business model (micropurchases, digital distribution, alternative for discouraged/frustrated customers to buying single songs, instead of whole albums). My questions for your industry (I don't mean to single you out) are... 1). Where are the porn industry's solutions and initiatives to stagnant business models? 2). What has taken them so long? 3). Do you think the porn industry has lost any significant business out of frustrated customers over the years (customers who don't resort to piracy)? 4). Do you think the industry has embraced and used the internet to it's advantage or dragged it feet in adopting products and services towards it? All of the examples I talk about are separate industrial problems/issues not related to piracy, nevermind the impact of the economy & unemployment.I wanted to find out what you thought would have the most positive effect on broad-based financial metrics (e.g., sales) for the industry and not necessarily personal anti-IP strategies. I know it's hard to fully extrapolate, but hypothetically, you are saying that you think a 30% reduction in piracy would be more financially beneficial to the industry rather than a 30% improvement in the economy?
So it's been a while since I've been on here, and it looks like people are pretty angry these days... Brandon drew my attention to this board, and I thought I'd pass by and talk about this for a second. My only issue is that I don't think i'd be a good representation of this company since I've been directing for brazzers for a bit more than 2 years, and honestly have no idea what goes on in the office these days. And although I did work in the head office before I began directing, today my job only consists of me picking up the camera and shooting the talent that the company has chosen for me. With that being said, I'm not really going to comment on whether or not we "own" these tube sites. It wont matter whether I admit to it or not, you all have drawn your own conclusions and will just continue antagonize this company. I will ask this, however, if we weren't around, would piracy still exist? What people have failed to mention is that there is a whole slew of tube sites that we don't "own" - youporn, spankwire, xvideos, eskimotube...i can name at least 10 others but for obvious reasons I wont...not to mention all the torrent sites. People also fail to realize that it is just as easy to find a full length brazzers scene on these tubes sites and especially the torrent sites, than any other kind of scene. On the one hand, I can see where you all are coming from because I agree that it sucks seeing something you've worked hard on being given out for free. However, on the other hand (and this is completely from my point-of-view) I couldn't care less because I don't make any kind of royalties or extra money off of my scenes. I get a flat annual salary. So can you blame me if this doesn't bother me? I completely agree with all of the arguments that are being said here, however, its easy to antagonize a company when they're at the top of their game. And if we do in fact "own" these tube sites, then I applaud this company for adapting to this constantly changing market, and doing what they gotta do in order to survive. I know it sucks, but sometimes that's just how business is. Finally, I definitely don't agree with all of you attacking Jules Jordan. I know for a fact that Jules does and excellent job at distributing our DVD's and that's ALL he does. He has no other business with us other than that. Whatever goes on in the head office has absolutely nothing to do with Jules and his affiliation with us is in no way criminal. I agree that business has been hurting. And I'll admit that I've also been shooting less scenes these days. However, don't think that it's fair to point the finger to just one company...piracy will always exist no matter what... That's all I'm going to say on this matter.
I hope it doesn't come to that Mike. Because you will lose me as a paying customer if I can't download your porn and watch it via a networked media player in any room in my house. Maybe I'll just have to find other porn that isn't so restrictive and I'm sure you don't care about just one customer anyways. But I think I represent a trend on the consumer side of the equation...if we pay for it, we want to be free to watch it wherever and on whatever device we wish.
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 4:53PM
First, I'm not sure the industry claiming that their schemes to be unbreakable/unhackable/unable-to-circumvent is a smart move, because we have seen that disproved many times and only gives these hackers incentive to do it. Whether adult sites want to provide a streaming option is fine by me, as long as it's an option and provide a downloadable option. The day there's not DL option is the day they lose a customer for ever (and guessing others too) and me informing others of their shenanigans. As your assertion of punishing IP breakers by pinging their credit cards, not sure if that's even legal, but if it is, I'd love to see the ToS on that one and I'm sure there might be major legal or legislative hurdles over that. Personally, even if what they are doing is illegal, I don't see ghost charges as right - take them to court. As with many technology driven "solutions" many have hurt customers who play the game, but there is a limit to patience and shenanigans and not sure if these routinely flawed solutions are worth destroying many loyal customers and would rather see them pursue other avenues.
PCI-DSS Security Standards certainly won't let you automatically debit someones credit card without their permission. You'll find your merchant account revoked pretty quickly if you try to do that as that would enable you to associate someones IP address with their credit card, and that information is not permitted for storage outside of the banks. However, if you introduce a new privatized currency (like Xbox Live points) then you have more latitude to do things like this. But that is nothing more than glorified tokens and I've not seen that to be an overwhelmingly popular payment model for adult websites either. Then again, I could be wrong.
Another thing abou streaming v download is this. With Download its yours to watch whenever you want at the click of a button, smooth and easy. With streaming, there are a variety of factors that make that a less reasonable experience. Buffering, bandwith, internet connection speed, service provider, website functionality, website maintenance, I could go on and on. All of these have to be perfect in order to achieve a lvl of quality that you get versus the downloaded version. How many times have you all streamed any movie or tv show only to have it stop halfway through or at a good part to buffer for like 10 secs. Takes you out of the mood. *****The Dr. of Nasty*****
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:22PM
^ Great points. Another reason. As broadband caps come more into play every year (as more services become digital) and with HD (720p or even 1080p), why would I want to stream a video in 720p several times a month (if I wanted to watch a particular video/scene more than once), which would go against my cap, rather than downloading it once? Q: Why porn is dying? A: Because "solutions" like these are being taken seriously and not outright axed by the industry. Funny thing is, hypothetically, all these customers lost from this fallout would be classified as lost sales or pirates, instead of unsatisfied customers due to horrible company/industry practices.
This thread is shit...... This thread should die all its done is create politics and hate! Delete it and get rid of it! Edited by - LexRated on 1/20/2010 5:35:02 PM
See my comment earlier on Net Neutrality, although the Obama administration may not be so quick to back it now as it was. Caps are likely going to be the primary anti-piracy mechanisms put in place since it appears that the ISP's are going to lose the ability to shape traffic themselves.
It would also be a heavier burden on the paysite's server due to people streaming it several times instead of downloading it once. I don't know how much they pay for servers these days but I guess this would cost them a lotta money and therefore they would probably have to raise prices. Stupid idea all around.
