If just one person can rip the content, even if it takes special hardware and a lot of effort, then it'll end up online sooner or later. Look around and you can find just about every game for every old emulated console/computer, no matter what format it came on, or what copy protection it featured. Countless obscure vinyl records that never made it onto CD are carefully ripped and cleaned up, without any monetary reward for the effort. Those have a pretty small audience compared with porn. If it's possible then someone will do it, if just for the challenge and the props. Maybe with future technology things will change, but I wouldn't bet on it personally. There've been countless "impossible to crack" copy protection efforts that turned out to be nothing of the kind.
I think the focus should be directed on the forums,torrent sites,newsgroup hosts and p2p who make it easy for anyone to share pirated content with people they don't even know.since the days of the VHS tapes,content as been ripped but piracy was contained because of the inability to share it with 1000's of people.the government and laws must acknowledge that this isn't 1990 and that times have change and that tolerating this kind of abuse of technology must stop. it's hurting businesses and it's unfair to those who produce the content.
Obviously, I can't answer for the industry at large. And our industry really isn't much different than mainstream movies and entertainment, which are all hurting...both in terms of piracy and the economy. Overall, technology is overwhelming and difficult to adapt to...and, quite honestly, it gets tiring trying to keep up. Give me some specific examples of "stagnant business models" please.There's a changing of the guard, so to speak, in Porn Valley. I've seen it in the 7 years I've been in this business. New blood means change. So I think there's change happening as we speak, which will accelerate as the old-school leaves and the new-school steps in to take its place.Of course. No doubt about it. And now you're being heard. The internet has really taken the adult business out of hiding, so to speak. No more nameless, faceless producers and directors. And the consumers are communicating to producers and directors directly and almost instantaneously. Some are even listening, as this thread / and forum in general show. What did you do in the VHS days when you had a complaint? Write a letter and put it in the mail to the 2257 custodian of record?Most of the DVD producers in Porn Valley are really lost when it comes to the internet. The old cliche rings true -- they're a day late and a dollar short. They've either had to hire people to help them, or close up shop and move on. That's a fact. In 2002, internet producers were a big joke in Porn Valley. We even had a cheaper "internet rate" when it came to booking girls. Producers even licensed their entire library of their titles cheaply, thinking the arena was a passing phase. So, in that regard, it was a matter of dragging their feet. The ones that are around now are scrambling to adapt. Shit, we all are now.Absolutely. Porn's a vice -- just like tobacco, booze, and gambling. They're the last to feel the pinch in an economic downturn. The Tube sites, as well as the file sharing sites, have leveled the industry. Don't get me wrong -- there'd be a slow-down, but nothing like this. When I wanted to lend out a dirty tape to a friend, I'd have to have two VHS decks, dub it in real time, and hand it off. Now a file goes to Rapidshare and it's worldwide in seconds to as many as can grab it. All ya gotta know is where, and that's easy.
Well, there ya have it. But what else could anyone expect?
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TeganLovesSara Deactivated User
Are you smoking yet? 252 Posts 12/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 8:26PM
And the "where" is easy to find thanks to google. i was legitamely looking up a title a couple days ago, to check for some info about an actresses i like. as soon as did the search, i had results to at least 10 different places where i could dl the scene or the whole movie for free if i chose. the worse part about it..........the movie hasn't even been released.
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TeganLovesSara Deactivated User
Are you smoking yet? 252 Posts 12/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 8:30PM
OT: Why doesn't your company shot any interracial?
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 9:50PM
Caveat: Porn and even mainstream media is not my profession/expertise. Neither is business or entrepreneurship, so a lot of this is just from a fan perspective with some technical skills/background (computer wise). As I see it, I'm guessing a lot of business strategy and tactics aren't compatible with the common industry's point of view. To me, growth is bad if piracy (I say over-exaggerated many times) is your main concern. Does a industry really want more customers if all new customers (x%-xx%) are pirates (i.e., prior post about streaming counter-measure)? So if attaining new customers inherently increases pirating, then the only "option" is to 1). cut costs (since growth = flat or < 0%) 2). charge more for same services 3). offer same product, but use more product that doesn't cost as much (i.e., filler material). I would guess many have cut costs, but inevitably, there's only so much cost-cutting that can be done. This leaves charging more or filler. We have all see companies practice the filler (have 1 good scene bundled with 3-4 mehh or bad scenes) thing, but there's a time when paying customers are going to realize the perceived value vs. true value (or not want to buy a $20-30 DVD for 1-2 scenes and 2-3 bad scenes). As for the raising costs, we all know, the industry can't go this route in this economic climate. All this while some of the production costs are going down (I'm guessing due to hard media vs. digital-internet distributed cost?). In the end though, any initiatives for things like 1a). moving to a-la-carte (just recently) 1b). micropurchases if a-la-carte 2). give more promotional-free memberships (temp) 3). advertising and targeting mainstream crowd (advertising porn toward mainstream pop has been really poor - not using scandalous ads) is moot, if a significant number of these new customers/business would end up being pirated. Also, there's the train of thought that the economy is shit, people are out of work (no discretionary money), so some of financial decline will invariably pickup when these recover, but it's going to take time and not much people can do. I'm sure there are many holes and/or errors in my perception, but this is how I see it. I don't mean to put this on you, but you are one of the few executives (production side) who are engaging fans, which I commend. Still, I have seen that the industry has been horribly complacent (more than many other industries) and failed to adapt or try to stay ahead and now that we are in bad times, a lot of that stuff doesn't fly anymore. I do appreciate your responses and hope for the sake of the industry they realize a healthy consumer/fan base is probably the only way to survive.
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 10:03PM
You probably know more than I do about numbers, projections and network things of caps, so all I can contribute is a gen Xer/Yer, who embraces a lot of the tech/net stuff. I know a lot of people say >200GB/month is a lot, but I really think 5GB/month is nothing, especially as services like streaming net-flix, Hulu, 480p--->720p, Web 2.0 etc. etc. continue to take off and grow, nevermind adding dimension of porn. All I can say is I hope it's a lot more than 5GB/month. The US has been constantly behind many developed countries in the world for broadband metrics/stats and hope we can finally get some value (comparably) and improvement.
5GB a DAY is nothing. I'm a huge fan of Kink.com and they have taken a lot of my money (when I used to have some to spare). InSex was pioneering the live feed deal years ago. It's genius (although not my thing). What Kink does is a) give you stuff you won't find on DVD, generally, for putatively legal reasons and b) update consistently with high-quality content that is expressly tailored for its subscribers. The reason they could keep taking my money is they have a ton of different sites – and at least 3-4 that I enjoy – and it's appealing to play round robin with you monthly subs. It's a "different" vibe than the usual gonzo thing, and the brand has been strongly cultivated since they first went online ... and having been exclusively online from the beginning, they have an edge now that the web thing has exploded. For all I know they could be up to their dog collars in debt, but it seems to be that companies like Kink (which I like) and the Bang Bus folks and their ilk (who churn out garbage), are the contemporary versions of what Stagliano and Collins were at the dawn of the gonzo age. But I can't imagine that anyone who isn't already rich, or tight with a top distributor like Jules, Evil, etc., stands to make more than beer money in the current porn environment. It's gonna be a not-so-[ invalid url ].
I think this is one of the biggest reasons for the demise of the industry that has been overlooked mostly. Think about it, when the website subscription model came into place they would charge you $29.95 on most sites for a couple of small sized screenshots and some low res short video clips in real media (.rm). That was probably an okay price if not a bit too much for the value you get. What's the price today? It's still $29.95 or even cheaper in some cases but these sites give you so much more for your money. Up until 3-4 years ago the video quality on the web wasn't even on par with DVD but now it has way surpassed it and "Full HD" seems to become the new norm. This means there is no reason whatsoever to buy DVDs anymore (only for people who still haven't figured out that web stuff can be watched just as conveniently or even more so than DVDs in their living room). Not only the quality of scenes increased but also the quantity, on some sites you even get the full back catalogue of whole companies for the same price they have been charging for a decade now. You don't need to be a business major to recognize how stupid this is. What the industry has done is basically constantly raising the value of their product without ever trying to adjust the price. And if this wasn't enough they now even throw multiple sites at you for the same price! Wouldn't it have been so hard to say "Well, if people want to join another site of ours they should pay for that one too"? Now of course it's way too late to do anything about it. They would have had a chance had they reacted 5 or 6 years ago but they didn't and so they basically fucked themselves.
piracy might be a factor in why Winter Pierzina stopped posting new content on bustywinter.com. bukkake sites are a dime a dozen. a woman who can store a claw hammer in her bra is special.
I'm 100% with you on your estimation. I currently subscribe to 5 different adult websites. This number changes every few months, but 5 different subs per month is about average for me, as I often cancel one membership to grab another. Give or take, I'm spending about $100/month on porn right now. I've no idea where that puts me versus your average porn consumer, although 100% of my expenditures are on internet-provided porn, I buy hardly any DVD's, I don't do webcams, I'm just buying subs to libraries of porn from the likes of Kink, VideoBox, a couple of preferred studio sites, etc. With VideoBox alone, I'm downloading something like 3 equivalent DVD's worth of stuff per day, or 10-12 gigs. Throw in the other stuff and it is closer to 20 gigs easily. Add my normal web traffic on top of it and it is pushing 25 gigs/day. The average US Broadband speed is 3.9Mb/s. Most people work or at least aren't at home all day long, so lets cut the day in half and say that the average bandwidth consumption, maxed out, is that speed for 12-15 hours per day. While I doubt that "most people" do this, a heavy user of the bandwidth they are paying for could easily hit 40g/day in downloads. Now take a look at all the major ISP's: Time/Warner - Several test markets already in place, testing 10-50gigs/month caps, plus $1.50-$2/gigabyte overage fees. Comcast - Ditto but far more giving at caps between 150-200gigs/month, $1.50-$2/gigabyte overage fees. Rogers (Canada) - Testing 10-25 gigs/month plus $1.50/gigabyte overage fees AT&T Uverse - Reno was the first test market, with AT&T putting a cap of 40-150gigs/month (depends on service tier), plus a fee of $1/gig over that amount. In their letter to customers, they had this ominous statement: "We have previously stated that some type of usage based model, for those customers who have abnormally high usage patterns, seems inevitable." Verizon FIOS - They just started booting users off that they deem are doing "too much P2P" traffic. It should be noted they are doing this in full cooperation with the MPAA and RIAA as well. ISP's really only have 3 methods for dealing with those users they deem to be bandwidth hogs. Throttling/Shaping (cutting your bandwidth down when using certain apps), Filtering (blocking certain IP addy's or even ports on the router) or Capping. Throttling/Shaping and Flitering are both really anti-Net Neutral. If the Net Neutrality bills pass, ISP's will no longer be allowed to use either of these methods but rather be forced to treat every packet of data equally. But metered internet, already a mainstay in the wireless 3G/4G business model, is most assuredly legal and permissible under Net Neutrality guidelines. This is where the ISP's are headed. They are getting customer backlash, to be sure, but they are continuing down that path on their own already. And if Net Neutrality passes (Obama promised to make it law if elected), caps will be HOW the ISP's manage their user base and their revenue stream. For many ISP's (Verizon being one the primary ones) their entire business strategy was built around the old "walled-garden" models where you paid for access to their walled garden and you would be funneled to businesses where they were getting a cut first as a means of supplementing their fixed-rate bandwidth offerings. They are already a LONG ways down the metered internet packages already and it looks like it will now be impossible to stop unless Obama doesn't pass Net Neutrality in its current form. So what does all this mean for porn users like me? Easy.....I won't be streaming porn (DRM or no), I won't be buying and downloading as much porn (DRM or no) because in my case, my current porn consumption of a half-terabyte per month would cost me not $100/month but something closer to $650/month. I'd likely cancel everything but Kink in my case as that is not available in any other fashion. I doubt I would go back to buying DVD's to supplement this, but maybe a few more than I have been for really hot titles. But frankly, I couldn't afford it any longer. I'd still be able to afford the porn, no problem. It would be the BANDWIDTH I could no longer afford. All this talk about piracy and DRM and DCMA take-down notices really are just smoke to me. The real war is happening on the Net Neutrality front. Very few people have paid it much attention as the buzzwords for pro-Net Neutrality all sound fine and dandy....ISP's can't be gatekeepers, they can't give preferential treatment to selected (often owned) websites, or charging you a different rate for using P2P and VOIP services versus just plain-jane web browsing and email. I mean, when you put it that way, why would anyone be against it? The insidious alternative, however, is a total justification (and tacit support) for metered internet usage plans. You use more, you pay more. And for porns current business model....that is a total death knell and in my opinion a far bigger threat to Brandon's, Billy's and Mike's livelihood than piracy. I can't think of a single way for a pirate to get around this as their pipe to the content will be severely restricted by how much money they are willing to spend on metered bandwidth charges. And for a pirate...I have to assume they are willing to spend nothing. Net Neutrality is the game changer. Not another anti-piracy campaign. It's now all about anti-bandwidth usage. Edited by - lubenluv on 1/21/2010 10:15:53 AM
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 10:38AM
Lube, I think Net Neutrality and associated effects (not necessarily caps) might be put on the back burner for a little bit as they finally realize that economy & unemployment is more imperative. I don't doubt that it's coming though. As for alternatives, that's one thing I'm not worried about. Even if the industry adopts this streaming thing, companies & start-ups will realize and capitalize on any stupidity and provide traditional services (esp. if it doesn't cost them or figure out streaming is much more financially costlier than trad DL). Sure they'll be fall out that will be sad, but the streaming porn is such a bad model (and illogical) that they'll be alternatives for people like us. Thanks for the ISP figures. I've heard stories, but didn't realize that some were that restrictive.
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icecreamman1963 Deactivated User
"all my flavors guranteed to satisfy" 8 Posts 1/10
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 11:18AM
what makes you think it's dying?in my view,it's more popular than ever! why?the internet!buying porn dvds may not be selling well,but internet free porn is booming. the porn industry is suffering from lost profits the same way that music,tv ,and hollywood movies. "all,s fair in love and sex"
This sums it up in a nutshell. Millions and millions of people think this way, and until it ends -- which won't happen -- the problem will remain. The economy, the industry's past in regards to how it treated fans, the crappy product...all those three combined don't have the effect piracy does. That's my statement. I'm not sure what's so fair about ripping off the people who entertain you on any sort of level -- from listening to your favorite song to unwind after a long day at work or jerking to your favorite girl to unwind after a long day at work. "internet free porn is booming" There you have it. Edited by - billywatson on 1/22/2010 11:36:34 AM
Here's how I see it: Pirates are a lost cause and cannot be rehabilitated into becoming paying customers. The best you can hope for is a "good vs. evil" moral victory if/when you finally stop them from getting your stuff for free, but it will not translate into increased sales, it will not translate into money. On the other hand, those other factors (improved economy, ethical treatment of customers, improved product) can bring the honest, paying customers back and can get the existing paying customers to increase their porn spending.
Just so this thread doesn't die the same death as me, here is what I find extremely frustrating: 1. A lot of expensive content I own is up on a site run by Keez (detailed earlier). The site is connected in some way to Brazzers as far as I know but no one wants to admit it. I'm not sure why someone would be so secretive if business was conducted above board but that's beside the point. I'm only interested in protecting what's mine. It's how I earn a living. There is also content on this particular site from Elegant Angel, JM Productions, www.comeonherface.com, Anabolic, and many others. If those companies licensed their content (which I doubt), so be it. I did not license mine. 2. Much of the same content I own was removed temporarily last summer but it went right back up. 3. I've DMCAed the site in accordance with their own policy. It was ignored. 4. I left the guy a voicemail to call me so reasonable people could be reasonable. My call was not returned. 5. Bramm_Brazzers shared his opinion in this thread and basically says he applauds a company that is "innovative" enough to survive in these tough times. That tasered my brain with 50,000 volts of "WOW!" 6. If you go to www.brandoniron.com, you won't find anyone else's content, Brazzers or otherwise. I know Bramm_Brazzers said he would not comment further but I am desperate for some practical advice as to what he suggests I do. Would it be equally innovative for me to go to his set and start taking lights, cameras, etc.?
Bramm is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He's on board with them in the same way Jules is. Asking him for advice isn't going to help your situation one bit. If anything, ask Bramm to be kind enough to interrupt his bosses during one of their Foosball tourneys and plead with them to make sure your content is off their tubes. The Brazzers rip-off network: Porn Hub -- Alexa rating 50, Tube8 -- Alexa rating 77, Keeze Movies -- Alexa rating 211 and Extreme Tube (their newest incarnation) -- Alexa rating 1076. All pointing to Brazzer's content or sites they're promoting. For those of you who don't know, these numbers are gigantic. Completely unattainable for adult traffic if content wasn't given away. And we all know whose content they aren't using to attain this.
I read this and I really do feel for you. I'm a businessman, if I came into the office every morning to find someone had stolen all of our product, all our raw materials to make more product, and were giving it away for free over at the plant next door to mine and I filed report after report with the police, with proof and pictures and evidence, and it STILL kept happening each and every day.... Well, I'd likely go vigilante. That is a possibility for you but you'll likely face federal charges if you tried such a thing. Ironically, so should they but you'd be far easier to prosecute so we'd see Brandon's face on a wanted poster. I really, really feel for you. There's not a damn thing you can do about your livelihood it seems like.
"all my flavors guranteed to satisfy" 8 Posts 1/10
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 2:49PM
do i feel bad about getting free porn,movies,tv shows,and rock and roll free from the net? hell no,not one millisecond!i grew up in the late 60s era,the era of zeppelin,kiss,the stones,the who, the clash,jaws,star wars,and hawaii five -o and the real saturday night life with belushi,akyroyd,chevy chase,and bill murray.do you know how much money i spent on lps,tv and going to these movies? a whole lot! it was worth every penny.i have all my fave movies on dvd and my classic rock cds that i paid for,probably at least 50k worth over the years.i have paid them all a lot on royalties.so i look at it just as getting my money's worth.i don't sell anything,cds or dvds, i use them all privately within my circle of family & friends.i don't feel bad about it,never will!besides today's rock and roll music scene sucks,movies ain't much better,and except for 24, fringe,csi,ncis,monster quest,criminal minds,and a few other weekly series, it pretty much sucks too,especially when you compare it all to the rocking rolling 1970s!!! i am not harming anybody,wtf should i stop? "all,s fair in love and sex"
Are you sure you didn't grow up in the 1860's? Because that has to be the most horrid run on sentence I've ever seen. But tell ya what....lets say you post your home address and let one of us come over and buy one of those record albums from your collection. But while we are there, we'll tie you up and take everything you've ever collected over the years and stick it over in the yard next door with a big sign on it that says "FREE STUFF." Anyone, but you, can come over and take it. You'll be forced to stand and watch as kid after kid shows up, takes as much of your stuff as they want, and carts it away. You can call the cops later if you want but they won't do anything about it. It's just a bunch of movies, music and tapes. I mean you wouldn't mind, would you? Turnabout is fair play, right?
ironically being able to download music really speeds up the search. I dont like the gamble aspect of buying Cds and really only like about 1 percent of everything I hear. It prob does lead to theft by convenience though peace man
This is the other pervasive thought out there -- it's OK to steal from rich folks. I used to listen to people defend, over and over, their right to free music via Napster (back when it was a free-for-all) cause the rock stars are "already rich". Steal from Ice Cream, he'll fill ya full of buckshot. But he's the first to steal from whomever he pleases. Edited by - heynow on 1/22/2010 9:31:17 PM
Using your example. Icecreamman is not actually the thief but one of the kids taking the "FREE STUFF" that someone else had already stolen and was now giving away for free.
This is already in place in New Zealand. You pay $100 for 40GB, $10 for another 40 GB and then it gets very, very expensive. There is one option that Vodafone uses -- throttle your speed to 64kbps for the remainder of the month once you reach 80GB. Other than the $100 monthly buy-in, it is fair as most wouldn't use 80 GB a month and it would prevent piracy and abuse. If you use less than 20GB a month, internet is cheaper there (I think that much bandwidth is $60 monthly with either a per KB fee or throttling to 64kpbs). I realize that a $100 fee wouldn't work here, but why not $25 for 40GB and $10 for an additional 40GB then a penny a KB ($10 per MB, $1000 per GB). I feel that 5GB is too little for most people's use and would keep customers from legit uses of porn streaming sites. I used an estimator site and even using You-Tube and Hulu, I use less than 40GB a month (way less)! I realize the argument that some download up to 15GB a day, but those are few and the rest of us shouldn't have to subsidize that kind of use (although I could support a cheaper per GB fee, say a dollar or two after reaching 80GB). Edited by - mharris127 on 1/22/2010 4:31:36 PM
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 8:26PM
You can justify stealing any way you want, but it is still stealing. I grew up in the 60's and I have spent far more on entertainment, it doesn't mean because I spent $25 or $250,000 that whatever I can grab now is mine. The artists make a living on their royalties, that is how they feed themselves and their families. Just because Avatar is on some tube site for free, doesn't make it right to steal it. I would rather buy a ticket and see it in the theater, so James Cameron can make more movies for us all to enjoy. You may find the word steal harsh, but that is what it is.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 8:41PM
You should check the etiquette on this site before calling everybody names. Two wrongs don't make a right. Understand? Because some people steal cars and rob banks, doesn't make it ok for me to do it. Those people are criminals, I am not. I get up every morning and go to work each day, if i want something i pay for it. I don't steal it. You came on here gloating how it is ok for you to steal stuff, people who don't steal stuff are probably going to take exception with that. People like you drive the cost up on products for people like me. It costs money when people steal, and they pass on the costs to people who pay for things. No one is better than someone else, just some of us are honest and care about doing the right thing, and some of us don't care about anyone but ourselves. You fall into the latter category. Edited by - heynow on 1/22/2010 9:28:42 PM
Hollywood, it's someone's alt...."i-scream-man" get it? Just ignore the boy, he has nothing to contribute other than a need for attention. Ok so to sum this thread up thus far for those that have joined us late.... 1) Brandon is freaking rich and owns a yacht and doesn't need any more money. Lets just get that out there right now. Somehow he can't afford to change the hideous wallpaper behind that couch but he does have good taste in boats, or so we are led to believe by his detractors in this thread. 2) Other than Brandon, everyone else from porn land is officially opposed to piracy and has tendered evidence it costs them money, either in losses of revenue or in legal fees to prosecute/collect. 3) DCMA take-down notices are totally ineffective versus tube sites it seems...when they do work at all, the copyrighted content just comes right a few weeks/months later. We aren't even going to get into torrents and Usenet content postings. 4) Many of these tube sites appear to be all owned by the same company or companies...and many of those roads lead to Brazzers. 5) Brazzers won't deny or admit their relationship with these tube sites, but seems to think they represent an "innovation" via ad revenue or some other scheme. Jules Jordan is seen as supporting these tube sites due to his role as a distributor of Brazzers products. Jules, however, has taken a zero-tolerance stance towards piracy and content theft. 6) There are some new fangled ways to combat porn piracy, ranging from change in flat-rate bandwidth models to Mike South working on some super-hacker-proof DRM scheme. But otherwise....there isn't much to be done to stop the loss of content right now. It's all "coming soon" but for now, as a porn content producer, you are pretty much fucked the moment you press the record button on the camera. That about sum this up thus far???
BW (et al), please forgive me if this has already been addressed. i'm replying to page 1 without having read the 6 pages of replies that have been posted. a suggestion. you need to QC your piracy results. meaning you need to demand and make sure that the people you have contracted to locate your pirated content are working up the food chain. producing volume results and presenting them to clients is sleight-of-hand. take downs, DCMAs, and C&Ds that are served on the bottom feeders in the food chain are only a starting place.
BI, your frustration is understandable. in the case of the examples you've provided, take a closer look at the IPs of those websites. alternately, you should know that the veil of the proxy registrant is EASY to pierce. you just need to know how. good luck and keep up the fight.
#1 is a red herring. the content sales are not what drives the perceived success of that model. it is in the purchase of the proprietary player sales. #3 mistakenly identifies the reason why government agencies (and non-government associations) do not activly enforce piracy laws where adult content is concerned.
In what way has Jules taken this stance? Because he said so? Is that all that is required to qualify for a 'zero tolerance stance'? Actions speak louder than words and Jules actions speak volumes about where he stands on this issue. The only stance Jules Jordan has certainly taken is to lie down with the dogs who are stealing everyone's content. He's wearing the uniform of the other team.
Jules made a very public statement on his stance HERE some time ago. This thread seems to challenge that, however. I was just trying to summarize. And for the info just posted, I hope that is useful to Brandon.
