Let me just chip in that as a musician I am horrified by the prospect of the new generation feeling it is their divine right to get music for free. The effect this is having is massive - and I have actor friends with similar concerns. So the future is going to be like this: We will sit back & watch our own natural resources be stolen and sold back to us for the pleasure, by Shell or BP or Texaco, but conspire to steal the work of the very people that make this life worth living: musicians, film makers , & authors. How many of these "file sharers" have ever created anything in their lives? Oh yeah? And did they want to give it away, when they could barely even afford to live? Sick.
I never steal music.Sometimes I'll read a review of a CD & will sample it on YouTube or MySpace & if I like it I'll buy a real copy and if not I just cross it out of my want list.I'm a HUGE music geek & I HAVE to do this to avoid buying CDs I don't like or I'll be homeless RIGHT QUICK !
As I recall the title of this thread is "Porn a Dying Industry". I don't know but to me the quality of the product is going downhill and perhaps the industry is dying. I suspect one of the reasons is piracy. Now it appears one of the biggest thieves is a major player in the industry. Why not. Put the smaller guy out of business and competition is reduced and of course quality is diminished. It is a sad state of affairs. However for now, like the Romans with the Goths and Visagoths knocking at the door, lets just revel in the fact today we have the articulate and sexy Clayra (shouldn't it be Clarya?) posting with regularity and eat, drink and be merry. Tomorrow is another day.
The defense of copyright sound more like the fear that someone, somewhere, is getting something for nothing. Akin to the fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. The impulse at the base of this concern is to punish. To bring them down to the miserable level of “good” people.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 10 2010 : 11:46AM
You aught to be more concerned about DJs and Karaoke bars than with file sharing... They cut into your performance venues and performance is where musicians make the majority of their money.If you can barely afford to live, maybe your music isn't good enough to support you on it's own. (or maybe you're just not finding enough of the right kind of gigs, or the right audience, there can be plenty of reasons) The VAST majority of entertainment people (musicians, actors, artist and I don't see any reason why porn stars aught not be the same) have day jobs so they can afford to put a roof over their heads and food on the table. Not everyone gets to make their sole living at entertaining... I know... I am also a musician, and an actor, and an artisan... Who also frequents a bunch of temp agencies to make ends meet (or sometimes just to fatten up the kitty)
That is one way to look at it. I think that it is an overly complicated view point full of assumptions, paranoia, and BS. It is really simple - don't take things that do not belong to you.
^^"Consume" "Fnord", "Consume", "Fnord" Where does my self interest and the companies bottom line coincide to the degree that I become angry that someone is getting something free? I understand the companies being pissed. Edited by - ntfighter on 5/10/2010 1:27:42 PM
It would not. Someone with their hand out grabbing everything they can get would naturally be selfish, and would not think (or care at all) that their actions have any effect on others. But when companies start losing money, jobs get cut, prices are increased for products, and they may go out of business altogether.
The invisible hand of the market will ensure that another company with a slightly different approach will come along to take its place. That's essential capitalism. Pay the lest amount possible. Grab as much as possible. There is no place for Morality in capitalism.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 10 2010 : 5:12PM
Brandon has steadfastly refused to post anything but troll posts, because he doesn't have any data to support his beliefs about file sharing so it's not the best idea to cite anything he's said. And sensitive business data? They don't have to share that, just disclose general financial data like other legitimate businesses do, but they won't do that, because it would tell us what we already know. Namely that their profits were fine until the last 2 years, when, like virtually every other business in this country, due to the recession, their profits declined. I suspect they know this and know it wouldn't help their cause, although they could do what the MPAA does and put forward flawed financial data that significantly overestimates any financial losses due to filehsaring, and then the GAO can examine their data and state that it's flawed as they did with the MPAA's data in their recent report: "Some experts we interviewed and literature we reviewed identified potential positive economic effects of counterfeiting and piracy," The GAO wrote. "Some consumers may knowingly purchase a counterfeit or pirated product because it is less expensive than the genuine good or because the genuine good is unavailable, and they may experience positive effects from such purchases. Consumers may use pirated goods to 'sample' music, movies, software, or electronic games before purchasing legitimate copies," the GAO continued. "(This) may lead to increased sales of legitimate goods." And I'm aware of the Brazzers vs Pink Visual case, but that's not exactly the best case to cite considering it doesn't involve the general public, but instead involves two highly profitable companies, who are largely unaffected by filesharing, where one company is fighting over their content being appropriated and money is being made off it by another company.
Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08
Posted - May 10 2010 : 6:02PM
From the NY Times article: "...Since the industry's peak in 2000, album sales have declined 45 percent, although digital music purchases continue to grow at a rapid rate..." The article is clearly stating that people are buying singles on-line rather than entire albums. Nothing is said about piracy. No figure is given for any overall increase or decrease in total revenue. Clearly, the Vibe article is BS, as is every mainstream music industry rag. Everything about this report points to a change in consumer behavior which is more savvy, less satisfied with album offerings and more strapped by a poor economy. MP3's sound like crap to me. I do not listen to them. However, the music industry has nothing to do with the porn industry.
My favorite store had a nice 4 for $10 deal, but they were losing money, so they went back to 4 for $15, for 2 days. Instead of renting porn I watched girls' high school soccer.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - May 10 2010 : 9:28PM
Album sales is where the industry always made their money, since the introduction of CDs single sales have been minuscule, in fact since the 70s album sales have far outstripped singles as a source of revenue for the industry. A drop of 45 percent in 10 years is unprecedented in the history of the music industry, and digital sales are not making up for it, the facts are laid out once again in book like Appetite for Self-Destruction for those who are interested. To fail to see the relation of downloading to the industry's revenues is like failing to see the connection between smoking and lung cancer. The argument that the drop is because the music the majors have been peddling is shit and that the albums are full of filler is true as far it goes but fails to explain why the industry raked it in throughout the 80s and 90s when that was equally true. If the industry is just pretending to be losing money why are they posting losses in revenue and laying off people in droves? To claim that there hasn't been some kind of loss in revenue is frankly surreal. Again, I'm no fan of the majors, and one can argue that because of their failure to get on the new downloading model they deserve it (Knopper in the book above makes the argument pretty convincingly). Seriously, fuck the majors, but don't act like what is going on is not going on. Edited by - BlackSix on 5/10/2010 9:36:17 PM
Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08
Posted - May 10 2010 : 10:18PM
^ The book is not called self-destruction for nothing. According to this book, if the music is being destroyed, it is destroying itself. This time you did not read the title of the book or the book itself. Digital sales continue to rapidly grow, according to the NY Times, indicating what people are doing instead of buying albums, not piracy. One might want to read the prologue of that book. It refers to the previous time the "main stream music industry" nearly destroyed itself by producing a glut of bad music. Post disco, in the early 80s the music industry experienced a much worse decline in album sales, until Michael Jackson saved the music industry, as he has been widely credited. Also consider that around 2000, the industry peaked with another glut of bad music which included boy bands, pop rap and Britney Spears. The music labels sign far fewer artists, who produce albums much less frequently, one album every 2 to 5 years. If you produce less, you sell less. In contrast, in the porn industry, there have been in recent years before the recession, record numbers of active pornstars and record numbers of DVDs. No industry is entitled to continued high revenue, it must be earned. Also, intellectual property is only an economic and legal construct, it must be actively protected by its owner. It's the cost of doing business.
Oh .... it's an unsupported anecdote, huh ? May I ask do you own a website, a program , a production company ? I'd love to know what it is that you own and run to make you KNOW that this is an unsupported anecdote. I've been in this business for 5+ years. I'm close friends with many producers and I've seen the numbers. I've seen the companies go out of business. I own multiple web sites and affiliate promo sites and I obviously have seen those numbers. I've been to every AVN award show the last 5 or 6 years and I can tell you that last year the show had booths sold out to freakin' poeple showing off cars because their weren't enough companies to fill them. It was also put together on the same floor with the product show which used to be totally downstairs from the expo. Like I said .... knowones going to post their numbers on an open forum .... but if you're that big of a fool to think that giving something away for free isn't going to ruin or drastically hurt an industry you're in for a rude awakening. However, go ahead and think it's an unsupported anecdote when someone that knows first hand is telling you that it is not. Unbelievable ?????
Tia Ling wrote I'm really flattered that you're thinking of buyint my dvd .... but just a little food for thought ... you stated porn tends to "suck ass" now. Did you ever stop to think that part of the reason it may or that it does is because most companies can't afford to shoot a regular scene anymore let along a crazy wild gang bang / orgy scene because it's too costly. That many companies have gone out of business or stopped shooting for the time being because they don't have the money. Girls are gettin paid half of what they were in many cases , so they're pissed about shooting the scene. How good is that scene going to turn out ? You may say that you could careless if you steal porn or if you're busted for it .... but you may care when there is no more porn . The free tubes are killing the industry. May not happen overnight, but you may wake up one day not having anything to watch if things continue the way they are ! That being said .... I hope you still buy my dp video ! lol ... Tia
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Thank You Tia Ling for such a sincere and enlightening response. Please be assured that when I say that the majority of porn tends to "suck ass", it is not a reflection of my opinion on female talent such as yourself. This comment is directed at the producers who peddle titles that are incestuous, derogatory, and outright inflammatory. The scenes which are geared toward competent male performers with beautiful hardcore anal performers such as yourself, are exactly what I wish to support by any means necessary. I wish in my heart of hearts that you were getting most of the money, and continuing the cycle of supply and demand which is sorely lacking in these strange days. As a man of my word, I will definitely be ordering the highest quality videos possible through these channels, as they meet my desires. Your RCA scene with lots of visible foot shots was definitely up to my standards, and it only took one good man with one righteous tool to get it done. You have a very satisfied customer and I look forward to doing my part. Edited by - AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy on 5/2/2010 2:37:51 AM Edited by - AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy on 5/2/2010 2:39:13 AM
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Lol .... glad to hear it ! I always love to hear someone enjoying something i did on film !
You'll also notice alot of the titles are OLD ! Why ? Because DVD stores don't have the money to buy alot of the the higher end titles that are more costly. They can buy older titles for much cheaper to sell. Not to mention their just aren't as many of them coming out as before .... the complilations are because alot of companies have scaled way down on production for now and have just been putting out complilations with stuff they've already shot to offset the decreased income.
I never said that the recession didn't have ANYTHING to do with it ... but to think that giving away shit for free doesn't have anything to do with it is silly. Of course those companies are still around, they're so big it 's going to take alot more to knock them off. They shoot so much that they could survive for years without even shooting because they have so much back stocked content. Not to mention that a couple of those companies are the biggest supporters of Tube sites in the industry, meaning they own their own ! many of the other ones aren't even shooting that much and the ones that are do constant Parody Features. However, regardless of what you think, NONE of those companies are raking in what they used to !
And I'm supposed to take your word for it, just because you post it on an internet forum? That's even more ludicrous.... Anybody can claim anything here.... I don't know you. You're barely even real to me... So, without corroboration, your claims are even less than anecdote.Hail Eris!
I think you really hit on the other big problem with porn. People have been bitching about the end product of a high percentage of porn for years now, which I think the industry as a whole dismissed or severely downplayed. I think the idea that most could just put anything out there and a good enough percentage would buy it, has completely been disspelled by now. And no disrespect to Tialing meant, but porn's internal issues are no concern to me when I purchase films. I expect good and hot films everytime, preferably all the way through. The buying public has expectations and/or certain specific expectations. When those aren't mostly met for whatever reasons, people tend to tune-out in droves. To me, a performer either wants to fuck or they don't. Excuses don't get me my $30 back, and I really think a high percentage of consumers are getting tired of half-assed films being made. I hear it all the time, and not always from pirates.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 11 2010 : 5:11PM
I think there's a lot of porn that would be 10 hex better if it was even half-assed....
I don't get the "I spent $30 and it was not good enough" argument. I mean, guys commonly spend a lot of money trying to get into some cutie's pants without any result. That doesn't give you the right to rape someone claiming that you only did it because dating doesn't provide enough enteritanment for its price.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 11 2010 : 8:48PM
Agreed. And it's the same situation with the Music industry. They used to believe that they could just sell albums with 2 or 3 hit songs on them and the public would buy the entire album because they had no other choice. Well now they can purchase individual singles from the album instead. And that's exactly what they've done instead of buying albums because it saves them money and it's more logical. And as for the industry, it's already happened with scenes becoming more popular as time has gone on and it will continue to become a more significant phenomenon in the future given that that's what the public wants to primarily purchase. And the evidence bears this out as a number of the most profitable companies make their money by selling scenes only not movies.And it's also rather absurd that their films which cost a fraction to make compared to hollywood films are priced in the same range: $25-30. Logic would dictate that they should be priced far lower given how cheaply they can be produced. It would therefore appear likely that their keeping movie prices artificially high has probably depressed sales to an even greater degree than can be expected from the recession.
^ +1 There has been a flood of titles over the last 5-6 years, with greatly varying "quality" levels which naturally will dilute/devalue the market. I agree people only want to purchase the scenes they want, and not necessarily an entire DVD with 4-6 scenes (CD analogy here). However, I think you know that titles are priced to what the studios think the market will bear, which may have nothing to do with the actual production cost. I shed no tears to the financial woes of porn studios, but do extend a kleenex to them to wipe the tears of their sob story away. [mod edit: quote removed] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 5/11/2010 10:11:52 PM
Flawed logic. A porn film may cost a fraction of a Hollywood title, however it doesn't come close to bringing in what a Hollywood title does either. A Hollywood title makes money from the theatrical run, premium channel payments, network channel payments, PPV payments, DVD/Rental payments and deals with companies like McDonalds don't tie ins. A porn film for the most part only gets DVD/rental payments and VOD payments. A few my get PPV payments and premium channel payments. So it may cost a fraction to make, it also brings in a fraction of the amount.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 12 2010 : 2:37AM
Nor should it. A Hollywood movie is big budget, mainstream entertainment... Porn is not.
Yeah I believe they price their content at what they can get away with, but as we've seen with the music industry that can only continue but for so long before they have to change how they sell their content.
Agreed! Porn simply can't go where mainstream does nor could it ever hope to sell near mainstream standards, and I'm talking about mainstream flops too. Ironman 2 just made over 133$ million in a week. I doubt either of porn's "Pirate" films are anywhere near those kind of numbers. Plus given the sheer higher volume of porn being produced compared to mainstream, porn has no choice but to charge within the mainstream range. I'm guessing most mainstream films can at least break even, while I'm almost sure most porn can't and doesn't break even once released. Still I'm gonna go see Ironman 2 this week for about $7. Somehow watching the new/newer Lex Steele XXX 13 in a small preview booth at a local and somewhat sleazy adult book store, for about the same price, doesn't quite add or measure up. Nor does paying $40 bucks for it's new release compared to the probable $25 blu-ray/dvd Ironman 2 disk once it drops. So I do think porn has a pricing problem. I'm just not sure they can get around it.
However, with a smaller market, they have to charge more per unit to make a profit.
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rambo99ca Deactivated User
ca 406 Posts 3/06
Posted - May 12 2010 : 1:53PM
Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 12 2010 : 2:53PM
Many of the top companies in the industry do far better than break even, they're highly profitable, so they could lower the prices on their content, which they do eventually after their movies have been out for a few months. They don't on new releases though, because as mentioned previously they can get away with keeping prices artificially high as people purchase their content regardless. But, if sluggish sales are any indication it may be that higher prices along with the recession are causing them to lose profit. Edited by - Zaer on 5/12/2010 5:00:58 PM
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 12 2010 : 3:03PM
Porn costs a LOT less to make... In fact, some of it, I have to wonder if anyone spent any money making it at all.
Wicked Pictures,Vouyer Media, Axel Braun Productions, Marc Dorcel, JoyBear Pictures, abbywinters.com 1390 Posts 7/05
Posted - May 12 2010 : 6:06PM
There are other flaws with the analogy as well - a crucial part of the "by unit" cost is authoring, replicating, DVD sleeves, O cards, DVD cases and other "out of house" expenses that we deal with on every title. These are real-world hard costs, and printing companies and other venders are not cutting anyone breaks because it's "only porn." In select cases, the opposite can be true - you can be dealing with one of the very few vendors that is willing to work on adult product and they'll feel free to give you a financial screwing because they know "taking your business elsewhere" may not be an easy alternative. Roads To Moscow / Twitter: @roadstomoscow
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 12 2010 : 6:35PM
Right around 1998, I remember Patrick (notorious foot lover) Collins being interviewed at the end of one of his ELEGANT ANGEL videos. The basis of his statement made me realize right then and there, that porn was never meant to be a perfected work of art. He was very direct and to the point as he explained that his productions were meant to be a taste of perfection, not a bite that could be swallowed. This ensures the customer will be back again next week, looking to capture what had previously been so elusive. Around that same time, John Stagliano put out a video that pretty well summed up the industry, I think it was called BUDA. It was a documentary style narrative on his experiences with transsexuals in South America. It dealt with the situation concerning his contraction of HIV. You see him masturbating to a woman as she is riding Max Hardcore in the RCA position. Frilly ankle socks on her feet, feet on Max's legs, John spanks it until he shoots a load. Then, he turns to the camera as if addressing the viewer. He tells us something like,... he doesn't do the type of porn that is meant to satisfy. He does porn that makes you almost cum, because he doesn't want to cum. He likes the thrill of the chase and not the kill. Me, I like to kill it and eat it. More and Faster. The statements made by these two extremely powerful icons should explain to a degree why porn "purposely" sucks. Porn will never die, it is lying there in a bed on life support....Detroit represent!
I disagree. Except at your local smut store, online prices for new releases are clearly lower than they used to be. Like I've said before, your simply not gonna get a new release for like $10. Even mainstream doesn't do that anymore. Porn only has so many ways to get their product to your doorstep. They can't afford to print hundreds of thousands or millions of units hoping someone will eventually buy them like mainstream Hollywood apparently does. Your always gonna pay higher for something generally considered higher quality. Is it always fair? Probably not, but a Porsche will always be more expensive than a Mustang. You just gotta ask yourself what your willing to pay. Edited by - aplus on 5/12/2010 7:42:17 PM
Novelty - review by Captain Jack
Posted - May 9 2010 : 7:26PM
