Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious - Brendan Gill 723 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 25 2010 : 7:49PM
The porn stealing issue is not a debate. A debate is a statement of opposing views, each view supported by the evidence from which each view was formed. This "free downloads are stealing; free downloads aren't stealing" verbal tennis match never deserved the distinction of being anything LIKE a debate. From the beginning, it has been rationalizations from the users and/or defenders of tube sites and torrents. They've called theft everything from a self serving re-definition of copyright infringement, to some kind of legal right, to justice for the fat cat evil porn makers, to an actual benefit for the producers that INCREASES their profits. There have been other justifications and semantic sleights of hand of course, but in every case, against statements from industry insiders, from lawyers apparently representing porn producers, against verbatim quotations of the law and news reports, all supporting that free downloading IS theft and IS hurting the industry, the only rebuttals have been a lot of opinions supported by nothing but the obvious fact that the people with those opinions want them to be true, and their conviction that, if they just say it often enough, that's the same as proving it. Likewise, they suppose that if they say the facts aren't facts often enough, they won't be. If they say you haven't explained what you've explained a dozen times, the explanation isn't valid. If you ignore poof, or insist it proves nothing, it's not proof. Finally, and this is always the last resort of the indefensible, it gets personal. I'm not stealing from you because you're a heartless asshole who exploits your employees, or you've made BILLIONS off of porn actresses who go off and kill themselves because you didn't care. Like a a couple of six year olds who insult each other's mothers, just because they want to hurt each other's feelings. Getting at the truth doesn't matter and never did. Debate? Nonsense! These aren't hypotheticals. All of this has been said, in this and other places where this issue has come up, by people who KNOW they are being dishonest, KNOW they are taking for nothing what they should pay for, but for some reason I STILL can't understand, don't want to accept that they are stealing, but because of their colossally fragile egos want to come on here and convince each other and themselves (they've certainly convinced no one else) that they aren't doing anything wrong, that they're even some kind of HEROES, getting revenge on the evil pornogrraphers for all those billions of dollars they make or forcing them to make GOOD porn for a change or whatever. It's what intelligent and civilized people should do? It's what people do who are selfish, sanctimonious, deluded, and too foolish to see how foolish they are being.
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 25 2010 : 9:54PM
duefuss, I thoroughly respect you but you are way too smart and analytical for me. Debate...shleebate, it's all the same to me. I don't care in the slightest bit about whether it's stealing or not. Searching for porn on the computer saves me money on gas, rental fees, late fees, time, effort...all that. If anybody thinks I'm going to go to a video store in the seediest Detroit neighborhoods, slap down $15.00 to rent videos of fat paid Europeans that do everything but what I want to see, they're crazy. So if I'm stealing porn off the internet, I really don't care what anybody thinks. Come get me cuz I'm guilty. If I find something I like, I will definitely buy it. I have a DVD collection that could get me committed to a mental institution for porn addiction. That was when the shit was decent, now it sucks ass. Recently, I have come across a couple vids I wish to purchase, "Black Ass Addiction 5" (Evanni Solei) and "Double Penetration Tryouts 9" (Tia Ling). When I find a couple more, I'll place an order through this channel. If you haven't noticed, the Federal Reserve and the rest of the white collar criminals have stuck it so far up this countries ass, that our children's children are already feeling an anal penetration. I was robbed by white collar criminals for $60,000 last year, and now, because I lost my case before an ignorant jury, I've been countersued for another $130,000 for their defense lawyer. I don't really care what happens next. I just keep fucking Asian assholes and buying them lingerie.
Strangely, after that last post, I kinda have new respect for you. If for no other reason than the fact that you don't usually come across that kind of honesty. My hats off to you.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - Apr 25 2010 : 11:50PM
Considering that many tube sites were created before 2008 that appears to be unlikely. And torrents have been widely used since at least 2004. Yet the industry continued to do well. Which shouldn't have been possible if file sharing was allegedly so deleterious. And this recession wasn't ordinary, it was the worst since the Great Depression. So severe was it in fact that even the wealthy had to cut back on their excesses and tens of millions of people were left unemployed, and many still are. So in any economic situation that severe all economic sectors will be affected, including the industry. But as the economy recovers, profits in the industry will recover to what they were before 2008, and possibly exceed what they were then. And then some will likely wonder why there was any concern at all about this issue. Edited by - Zaer on 4/25/2010 11:51:59 PM
Ahh, but what percentage of interrs had broadband back then versus how much do now. I suspect the number is higher, meaning more people who couldn't steal on dial-up could steal on broadband.
I've been doing this since I was 20 years old, I look at sales reports, I talk to people at other companies, I talk to the talent but we're clearly all suffering some sort of delusion. You're right. When the economy recovers, all those people watching free, pirated porn online will suddenly want to pay for it again and I can buy a summer home in the Hamptons. Whew! For a minute there I really thought that the business was in trouble. It's good to know that Zaer, the Nostradamus of both the porn business and the world economy, is predicting that everything is going to be A-OK :) Edited by - mike quasar on 4/26/2010 12:33:49 AM
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious - Brendan Gill 723 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 8:16AM
Then why did YOU bring it up? And the patronizing is unnecessary and pointless. We both know that you don't for a second believe that I'm way too smart for you. I hope you will note that Zaer, true to form, has since come on here and provided an example of EXACTLY what I said above.
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 10:29AM
As a rule of thumb, I never trust a guru that complicates the issues. The guru would only use confusion and complicated words so that you will not understand. This mostly ensures that you will continue coming back to him like clockwork with a check in hand. It takes me a long time to read and fully comprehend what you are writing, only because I have to stop, grab a dictionary and clarify the meaning of certain words you use. If people would just communicate in a simpler manner, we wouldn't spend so much money on slick talking representatives that basically only want to play monkey in the middle with the less educated. By no means did I mean to patronize you. An interesting philosopher once stated that language is a virus that limits our ability to fully engage our brains to the max. Unlike the dolphins, we pull a jet around with ropes and horses. This is why I don't like to complicate things with complex words or ideas. I would rather stand really far back, so as to get the biggest picture possible. I cannot prove or disprove any of the analytical data that is or isn't being revealed. The only thing I have is the ability to bring an honest opinion to the table, and I sincerely enjoy sitting with all of you at this table.
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Stalag Deactivated User
476 Posts 1/10
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 11:30AM
Ah, the anti-troll viewpoint. Very refreshing!
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 12:37PM
I'm still waiting to see evidence that the internet has a negative impact on the sale of porn... The idea that porn is a dying industry is laughable.
I'm still waiting to see your proof that stealing porn has not had a negative impact on the adult industry.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 1:27PM
And you still fail to grok that one doesn't seek to 'prove' a negative eh.... I guess we'll just have to find something else to do until someone provides some evidence.
If it has no effect that is provable. You don't seek to prove it since you can't as you know as well as everyone else that it does take money away from the industry. So come up with your proof that it doesn't, since that is your claimed belief, or stop asking anyone else to come up with proof of the opposite.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 2:26PM
The evidence that contradicts your 'belief', or at least suggests your are in error, has been posted... by me and by others. *shrug* I'm sure not losing any sleep over it on way or the other
There is absolutely no evidence in existence that will EVER show the internet negatively impacted porn. In fact, the evidence would only point to the internet increasing the sales of porn. But at one time the idea that Rome would ever fall was also laughable. Shit happens. The porn industry appears to be dying the death of a million little cuts... how many hundreds? thousands? millions even? of people out there who own porn, but has never purchased porn are there? It seems that number is on the rise. It seems that there is a generation being born that feels entitled to take whatever is on the internet simply because it is available or because they want it, or for whatever other reasons they think of... but people like that with such a selfish mentality that has been getting free stuff for so long, when exactly is it that they are going to wake up and think "hey, I did not make this porn, I like it, I masturbate and fantasize to it, I find it entertaining so I HAVE to buy it."? I think there will be a long wait for that as things are now. The longer the wait, the more likely porn will decline... but for those already getting porn for free, I wonder if they will then complain that their free stuff isn't as good as it used to be.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 7:03PM
Does it? According to what? Cause it doesn't seem that way to me at all....
^^^ [Edited -- no personal attacks. Read the forum etiquette - Flash]. But really, who gives a shit? I didn't pretend to be stating any kind of a fact, just a personal observation made because I have seen people on these boards that ask questions like "why pay for porn?". Edited by - Flash on 4/27/2010 1:21:22 PM
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - Apr 27 2010 : 6:08AM
The fact though is that the industry's not in trouble. Just as the music industry wasn't when false predictions were made about it years ago. Because talentless musicians still make millions and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future. And you don't have to be psychic to know that the economy is improving and will continue to do so. And as it does the industry will as well. Edited by - Zaer on 4/27/2010 6:10:34 AM
Seems to me porn isn't dying, it's just not making the same people rich. It wouldn't be free on sites, free to download, 12% of the internet if it wasn't making people money. It's just not following the same model that the porn industry had become so used to. The internet has done to porn what Walmart has done to mom and pops. http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 27 2010 : 11:37AM
IgnoreAnd those are the people who are crying the loudest... And like those who cry the loudest about no longer getting the same level as rich in the music industry, I say "nards" to them
Okay, I'll bite: Who IS making money on it then? And if it isn't the people actually MAKING the porn, why SHOULDN'T they complain about someone else making bank on their work? Also, the link features research from 2006, but we're talking about a problem that concerns 2008- the present from what I've been reading... That's like posting crime stats from the 1920s Chicago and committing a logical fallacy to say that crime in all of America is bad. Edited by - clayrabeau on 4/27/2010 2:51:20 PM
I didn't say anyone didn't have a right to bitch. I'm simply saying that people are making big bucks off of porn. It may not be the people making it, but the people providing it to the public sure are. And while the link may be from 06, it was meant to show the growth of the internet in porn. There will always be a need for new porn. Right now though, I would assume that the vast majority of people getting porn off the internet have not exhausted the old stuff that is out there. And with the internet today, they can join a single site or find a free one that has plenty to keep them busy for a while. The porn industry can no longer be defined as those that shoot or star in the movies, the directors, producers, etc. It is also now those that run internet sites, and those people way out number what used to be the industry. If the old school industry wants to survive, they need to get in bed with the people that are using their stuff. They need to understand that they are no longer selling to the public, but to those that provide it to the public. Edited by - dildoslime on 4/27/2010 7:45:50 PM
I get the direction you're trying to go in, but I don't think you've thought it through thoroughly. At this moment, Pink Visual is at war with Brazzers because Brazzers owns some of the most prolific and most visited tube sites, essentially turning a profit off the work of others. What you're saying isn't, I hope, tacit approval of what Brazzers seems to have been doing, but more an indication that you think the distribution model needs to change. If that's the case, I absolutely agree, but therein lies the problem. In order for those making porn to continue to do so, they need to keep making money on it. Have you seen the folks that do it for free? Check out newbienudes sometime, it isn't always pretty... And much of it is VERY low quality. Paid porn stars, producers, and directors make stuff worth getting off too, and they (we) should be able to make money on the work. Sure, someone is making money on the product, but if it isn't the people who made it, how is that not wrong? Worse, how do you get customers to pay for something some jerk has stolen and given away for free? For example, if you were a bread maker, and one night someone robbed your bakery, wouldn't you be pissed if the thief gave your product away down the block the next day and no one said a thing about it? I mean, everyone loves bread, and this guy that robbed you is just giving it away, so why should they complain? Now imagine this guy breaks in EVERY NIGHT and takes some more of your bread. If you raise your prices to make up the loss, you lose. If you appeal to your customers to stop going to the free bread guy, they might sympathize, but even those that feel bad will still keep going to the bread thief. In the end, the only options are to go out of business, or shut down the jerk stealing your product. The same thing is happening in porn, and while producers and companies may need to find a better distribution scheme to ensure that their customers get a quality product at a fair price, the folks stealing from them and giving it away NEED to be shut down. Maybe calling those who patronize these sites thieves in their own right is where the animosity comes from, but the fact is, until the free porn well dries up, there's going to be a lot of people in the adult industry hurting a bit.
Well...at least you have your priorities straight. (PS--I didn't know that they sold lingerie for assholes...hmmm....)
Edited by - fu_q on 4/27/2010 9:45:34 PM
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - Apr 28 2010 : 7:25AM
I'm not sure why, but this type of example keeps getting used when it's not the best way to define the issue. A more apt example would be for a guy to go into a bakery, buy 1 loaf of bread, then using a matter duplicating machine make 100's of loaves of bread and then give it away to people for free. Is that theft? Obviously not. Is the baker going to be angry about people not buying his bread because they can get it for free? Yes. Will he call it theft to try and convince people it is when it's just sharing? Of course. Will people who weren't going to buy bread from the baker accept the free bread because it's free? Of course. Will the baker then say that everyone who accepts the free bread is a lost sale when that's demonstrably not true? Yes And that is the issue as it stands.The primary cause of the current downturn in the industry is that they along with everyone else in the country just went through the worst recession since the Great Depression. You can't have tens of millions of people become unemployed without it significantly affecting every economic activity. But, as the economy improves the industry will go back to making the money it used to and likely will exceed it's past profits. Edited by - Zaer on 4/28/2010 7:27:26 AM
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
ClayraBeau - I don't have an interest either way, so I'm not arguing a point for anyone. I'm simply trying to point out that people have to deal with change. The porn industry isn't any different. I just watched a show on how Monsanto,the company that makes the weed killer Roundup, came out with a soybean that they patented. It is now used on over 90% of the farms that grow soybeans. This company now goes out and investigates every farm that isn't using their product. If they find their product on the farm, and they will, because it drifts from the neighbor farms that use it, they sue the farmer. He either goes under fighting it or settles and buys their product. Is that fair? The laws support Monsanto, the farmer is fucked. What about all the people/companies that used to provide soybean seeds, that counted on selling every year before Monsanto came along? They are fucked. Something as simple as a company finding a way to create a patentable seed changed the traditional way of farming. I own a business that makes a product. I am losing business to South America because they can make the product for less than I can buy the material for the product. This wasn't an issue until recently. I can't do squat about that. What I can do is work closely with my customers and be there for them when they get tired of getting shitty product from South America. And that is what happens. I work hard to turn the product around faster than the competition, making the competition look less attractive. I'm looking into ways to improve my product so that the comp can't compete. I know that your point is that these people that are making money off of porn are making it off of other peoples work. The people making porn have options. They can go after these sites if they have the content illegally. They can stop providing it to the sites that have it legally. They can get in bed with the sites. They can work to get laws to protect their content. Etc... Or, they can face the fact that the gravy train has come to the end of the track, and deal with the fact that the internet has changed things to the point of no return.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 28 2010 : 11:13AM
^That was beautiful ClayraBeau, and well stated. I realize that I will probably not get a response from you for certain reasons that will remain unspoken, but you have a good view of the world and how it works. ....Death to Monsanto! The porn industry has made it's stance on my fetish very clear and will not allow me to have it both ways. As I've said before, the internet has been a wonderful tool to find other amateur performers who share common interests such as mine. This industry seems to become more and more centralized and rigid in it's format, while performers like me network with the like-minded across the world. I am adapting as well.
Zaer and New Romancer, please go fuck yourselves. Seriously, just die. Leave this place never to return. Neither one of you have a fucking clue what you are saying. It would be comical if it wasn't so fucking annoying.
You know, I made a guy cum on my feet on femdomcuckolding.com, and I'm still a bit new to the industry, so I'm not sure what your particular fetish or what the industry's stance on it is, so no reason to think I won't reply... Just sayin.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 28 2010 : 3:19PM
Ignore.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - Apr 28 2010 : 3:52PM
A mature response. But here's how it is: I say the industry is going to thrive as the economy recovers, as it always has, based on historical precedent. And you say the industry will cease to exist because of file sharing, which not only would be historically unprecedented but hasn't happened in the music or movie industry, who've been dealing with file sharing since 1999, and who are less resistant to recessions than the industry. So we'll see in a year who's correct.
I hate to gloat but I just signed a deal with Monsanto to produce FARMER'S DAUGHTER. We are going to rule this industry. Pass the soybeans, please.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 28 2010 : 9:44PM
^ That's funny shit!....ClayraBeau, Thank You for your comment and inquiry. For reasons I will not go into deeply here and now, I am unable to find the middle ground between good anal and good pantyhose/foot fetish. Seeing a man ejaculate on a woman's foot, and so on, is very boring for me. Pantyhose tease videos bore me as well. I am a very dirty man who likes to see my women in sheer pantyhose as they perform RCA. Feet well captured on the legs is a must, I must be able to see the toes through the sheen of the hose, and I like my women to be deep anal riders. As I have said many times before, I like the male performers to be well endowed, circumcised, and hard as a rock for a well lubed anal penetration. I see pantyhose/foot fetish is mass produced without anal and anal is mass produced without pantyhose/foot fetish. I can do the math, but something seems to be keeping these two entities apart. Mr. Irons, you are under my spell. On 3....Go grab Kara Tai, put some black sheer thigh-high nylons on her, some crotchless panties, set her feet up on your legs, and pump her ass for me real good. 1, 2, ....3!
So how much has foreign talent hurt the industry? Not that many years ago, most of what we could see was American porn. Now because of the internet, the number of girls in porn viewable in America must have increased what, 2-10 times? So while there may be less work for girls here, how many porn stars all together are there compared to a year or so ago. And that doesn't even include the growth of amateur porn that doesn't go through the industry.
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 29 2010 : 12:33PM
From what I see, the majority of internet porn is saturated by a very very limited amount of Russian male performers who are paired up with gorgeous young Russian teens. These teens appear to be eighteen+ and very beautiful, but the men are creepy as can be. Oliver Strelly and Timo Hardy for example, have penises that fold in on themselves due to the uncircumcised factor and rarely penetrate more than an inch. It seems there has been no escape from their overexposure which is as lackluster as it gets.
I know I should not be tempted to take part in these discussions or respond to an obvious troll, but this is hilarious. Sure,these two guys are impossible to avoid if you watch anything produced in Russia (which for me is limited to analteenangels.com at the moment, if we are talking about b/g scenes; otherwise there are also lezcuties and cutiesgalore which are obviously shot in the same studio and feature many of the same models) and I am not exactly a fan of these guys, but anyone can verify (e.g. by viewing any of the freely available trailers at the aforementioned site) that their penises can obviously penetrate deeper than an inch. The thing is, as far as I know porn production in Russia is officially illegal and could lead to jail, which may thin out the pool of potential performers. Edited by - witling on 4/29/2010 1:16:57 PM Edited by - witling on 4/29/2010 1:17:27 PM
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 29 2010 : 3:12PM
^You got me. They might have gotten it in two inches on a random occasion, but I sure couldn't tell, all I saw was a rumpleforeskin. Now be careful crossing the bridge.
Nonsense! I suggest you check billboard every week for the last month, and then contrast that music sales say 10 years ago. I'll save you the trouble though. Music cd sales are way down, and have been for years. You'd to be every good-to-decent album had a chance of at least going gold, with the top sellers being well over 5-10 million units. Those days are gone and have been for years. You can't get back what some fool is willing to give away for free. You guys show me how it's in a benefit for any and every given producer to give away thousands of dvd's for free? I doubt porn dvd's can be written off as charity.
Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08
Posted - Apr 29 2010 : 7:02PM
Music sales are down because of the glut of crappy music. Illegal music downloads have been drasticly curbed while a growing percentage of I-tunes purchases are for the old stuff. The greedy pop music industry does not give a damn about gold, does not give a damn about great music, but dumps its money into trying to create idols (which may or may not have any talent) who will deliver 10 million units over the course of 2 to 5 albums.
Oddly enough, before the recession hit and everyone and their brother suddenly started focusing on the bane of illegal downloading, the main complaint about the internet and "free porn" used to be exactly that the wide availability of explicit trailers and preview pages supposedly caused the more fickle crowd of porn consumers to not spend any money on the main product, because their jacking-off urges could simply be satisfied by ten minutes worth of trailers. Edit: In case my point was too subtle - I find it a bit difficult to accept the common industry view of a downloaded movie as a "lost sale" when the very people doing the downloading used to be characterized (fairly accurately, IMO) as such easily-satisfied individuals that they needed nothing more than a couple of minutes worth of spanking material. Those people may not constitute every downloader, but they're certainly a very significant subset. And you're not going to get them back as paying customers (if they ever were one in the first place) simply by fighting torrents, tubes and DDL sites; they'll just go back to whacking off to lower-quality free material again. Edited by - shalalin on 4/30/2010 10:28:56 AM
