Also, I just want to say that while all illegal downloading is illegal, I do not believe it has hurt the music industry or the traditional movie industry nearly as much as they claim it has. [For example, I own two or three thousand CD's, about 800 vinyl records, and a few hundred songs purchased online. I have also used Limewire to download music. This has often led to me going to Amazon to purchase albums I like. Where it does not, I delete the downloaded material. I share nothing. Other reasons like a lack of digital availability, the ability to purchase singles as opposed to albums, and most importantly the completion of back catalog releases of old material on CD hurt the industry a lot more.] With porn, I have downloaded some - usually looking for random acts. If I came across something I liked from a movie or website I could identify I often joined that website or bought that movie. It certainly introduced me to some performers that I ended up following. As I said before if you like the work of particular Auteurs (anything Mason/Sam No directs, I will buy) then you should pay them for the pleasure they bring you. Downloading should only be used to sample
Thank you for your support! It's truly appreciated. RE: Braincash and the Pornstarnetwork. I have nothing but good things to say about them. I've been treated great for 4 years now and hold them in the highest respect. For all my mistakes, partnering with them was one thing that I count as a blessing. They are honest to a fault and genuinely nice people. Can't say enough good things about everyone at that organization. Class act.
How is your personal experience is more valid than all the statistical evidence that suggests otherwise?
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 6 2010 : 9:06PM
What statistical evidence? The industry refuses to disclose it's financial numbers so it's virtually impossible to determine if file sharing has had a significant impact on its finances. So in the place of actual date one is left with hearsay and opinions. Now what we do know is that complaints about file sharing have risen dramatically over the past 2 years, which not coincidentally occurred at the same time as the country was going through the worst recession since the great depression. Furthermore we know that such complaints were not nearly as numerous before the recession began. So from that we can deduce that it was not file sharing, but the recession that was behind the industry's profits significantly declining.
I'm siding with Zaer. As proof that he's right, I have learned that it was the bad economy and not a volcano in Iceland that prevented all those planes from taking off.
Don't forget that drop in tourism in New Orleans a few years ago. Totally had nothing to do with floods, it was just the start of the economic downturn...
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 7 2010 : 5:11AM
The sarcasm is interesting, but in those two cases the evidence is irrefutable that nature was the primary cause behind the drop in economic activity. With the adult industry however the causal link is far more difficult to discern, considering it occurred at the same time as the recession. Which you two should understand was the worst since the 1930's. And of course your industry steadfastly refuses to release its financial information so as previously stated one is left with hearsay and opinions to determine what caused the downturn, not actual data. Furthermore, if the industry felt as confident about the issue of filesharing being the sole cause of its problems it would release its financial information to prove it, thus far it has not. Indicating that it does not feel that confident about the link. Edited by - Zaer on 5/7/2010 5:15:42 AM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - May 7 2010 : 5:23AM
The record industry has suffered a decline of 50-60 percent, a unprecedented decline profits that can only be explained by downloading, however much others may want to deny it. Sure mainstream music has sucked, but it sucked just as bad in the 80s and 90s, when the industry posted record profits. Similarly, porn seemed to peak in terms of profit in the late 80s and 90s when the quality of the product was often at its lowest ebb. Clearly the quality of the product and the profits have little relation, otherwise John Coltrane would have sold more records than Abba.
Like I said, I am on your side, Zaer. Imagine how much Brazzers could and should have earned allowing every other studio's content on their tube sites. It's appalling to me to see the government seize a mere $6 million from Mansef's accounts. They should have earned triple that. Quadruple. What ever the word for 5x is. I say leave those porn princes alone and put the economy on trial.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 7 2010 : 3:21PM
Your post brings up a good point. When someone such as yourself, who's in the industry, has to resort to trolling instead of putting forth any evidence to support your notion that it is filesharing, not the poor economy over the past 2 years that's significantly lowered profits in the industry, then that's evidence that the industry doesn't have much data to support its case.
What I find interesting is that what you are demanding are the P&L reports for these companies, something none of us are likely to ever have access to, and various groups have tried for decades to get a hold of. More interesting is the psychology of a situation where you refuse to accept the word of everyone in the industry as a whole that filesharing is hurting them. If Filesharing WASN'T hurting the industry, wouldn't there be at least someone coming forward from within the industry saying that piracy and tube sites wasn't a problem? Maybe even one or two who thought it was okay? The thing is, those people don't exist. If filesharing isn't having an effect on profits, why would people complain about it so much? Wouldn't it behoove them to complain about the actual causes? Or are you also convinced that there's a mass delusion that's swept the industry. Sadly, this whole reaction reminds me a lot of those that deny fossil records because they NEED to believe that the world is only several thousand years old instead of millions. I think Freud wrote a bit on how badly people react to having their paradigms shaken, maybe you should look it up and take it to heart...
Brandon and Clayra. Big fans of both. Just found Clayra, but will buy her stuff soon. Having said that you have bought the RIAA BS hook line and sinker. The RIAA has produced no statistical evidence to back up their claim. In the words of Colbert, the concept is truthy. I am a lawyer. I know that all downloading without purchase is copyright infringement. However, the music industry blaming their monetary losses on file-sharing is BS. This can be a long and protracted argument because no one has actual data to support their claim. I just note the industry's losses actually began when back catalogs were completely reissued, Music companies had not even begun digital distribution, singles weren't sold, and CD's at most suburban record shops would retail for 16.99 when not on sale. Has it hurt that industry at all? Maybe, but based upon my observations, not much. I could be wrong, it could be much worse than I believe it is. However, the recording industry hasn't supplied any evidence to back up their claim just a bald assertion that it's true. Having said that I do believe the porno tube sites probably hurt the porn industry more because in addition to the cost, many people still don't want to walk into a store and pay cash or use a credit card online to buy porn. Also, porn still has a stigma of illegitimacy for many and I believe they use that issue to justify their behavior.
I thought something like Clips4sale would work, although I looked on there once and the prices seemed high for single scenes.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - May 8 2010 : 3:55AM
That number is from an article in Vibe magazine, a mag that no longer exists by the way (although they maintain a website), but I guess you don't believe that the decline in magazine sales has any relation to the internet either.
By the way, Just to reiterate a point I made that may have been buried in my distaste for the RIAA - I believe anyone here who likes the work of a particular artist [I am using the term very broadly, to cover any creative work including porn so no f@#$ing semantic arguments please] should absolutely pay that artist for his her work. Sign up to the website - buy/rent the CD/DVD/BOOK, etc. I do. The only things I download are things of which I have little familiarity. Then I decide whether to buy or delete.
Saying that is a far cry from blaming it on illegal downloading. Newspapers and magazines shot themselves in the foot by giving away content online. Edited by - hst666 on 5/8/2010 4:00:59 AM
The mistake here, as I think it has been all along, is to confuse the RIAA, the MPAA, and the porn industry with one another. These are three distinct entities facing a similar issue, but with very different results over all. The RIAA lost several lawsuits (along with music store chains) over their price fixing, and handled the initial bought of piracy like clumsy fools. Did they take a hit? To some degree, sure, but they remained profitable throughout the years. What HAS happened to them is that they have lost the extra money they would have had to invest in new acts, so where once they may have signed 80 bands in a year, now they are only signing 30. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but radio has yet to catch on to the new ways people are finding music and thus only play what their corporate overlord buddies at the RIAA tell them to. Acts like One EskimO, Does it Offend You, Yeah? , MC Lars and mc chris go unnoticed by the radio stations, but each and every one of those musicians is on my ipod and the RIAA and Terrestrial radio had nothing to do with getting them there. Hell, proven acts like Tori Amos don't even get much airplay any more, but I own all her albums. This is different from the MPAA and movies though. The MPAA and the various movie studios have had less to worry about because the speeds to fileshare just weren't there until recently. These are massive budget projects that they are marketing though, so they care about piracy, and have been fighting it longer. After all, you never heard an FBI warning on a cassette tape, did you? But there it is on all my Blu Rays still. The mainstream film industry, with the advent of DVD, did something the RIAA never thought to do: They put added value into their product. I LOVE the blooper reels on most discs, and I know a lot of people who are into the whole director's commentary thing. Can't get that from a download typically, so they have some added insulation from the whole issue. Then there's us. Most people get off to about 5-20 minutes of footage in porn anyway. Rarely have I ever watched a porn film all the way through unless it was for comedic value like with all the spoof and parodies (like the old school Alice in Wonderland). This is why companies like Adam & Eve have done so well with compilations. That said, with the Tube sites comes the ultimate quick fix. Get in, get off, get on with your day. Bear in mind that just because porn and mainstream movies are both visual mediums, doesn't mean they're built on the same budget. I'm not making tens of thousands of dollars a scene. No one is! Compared to mainstream films, porn DVDs do not sell nearly as many copies, and marketing and selling isn't free. There's a pay off, for sure, and some people do make a lot of money compared to say waiting tables, but your average porn star or director isn't rolling in cash like Spielberg or Bono is. Add to that the fact that this isn't a unified "industry" so much as it is a number of like minded people all doing the same thing, and you have to see that we are NOT the same as the mainstream media and face tougher odds. Directly comparing the RIAA, MPAA, and the adult industry isn't fair because there isn't a direct comparison. Tube sites and piracy hurt the people who make the porn, plain and simple. Maybe they've only cost the adult industry a few thousand customers, but with an already lower customer base, we notice those few thousand a lot more than the RIAA or MPAA does. Yes, the economy has hurt EVERYONE, no doubt, but the idea that piracy hasn't hurt us because some other assholes have lied about how it effected their business is just not logical. It's both, my friends, and it's not meant as an insult to anyone when we it is pointed out. Tube sites may be part of the future of porn for a long while, but until they start doing a better job of policing the content that's uploaded, we're all in danger of seeing porn production slow way down.
"Acts like One EskimO, Does it Offend You, Yeah? , MC Lars and mc chris go unnoticed by the radio stations, but each and every one of those musicians is on my ipod" I like you more with every post Clayra. Love MC Chris and like MC Lars. Only found Chris because he was MC Pee Pants on ATHF.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 8 2010 : 9:55AM
Dismissed... biasExactly what I've been saying I do all along... and it's also what it would appear the majority of people are doing as well... This according to info that has been posted already.More likely by not offering services online that anyone felt were worth paying for... 24 News Networks and access other constant, portable streams probably had more to do with the decline of newspapers and magazines than 'giving away content online'... or is at least as likely a factor
I'm more than willing to concede that the economy plays a huge role in the industry's overall health. I don't understand anyone else's dismissal of an artist's right to control distribution of their product. People within the industry exploit DMCA loopholes for massive financial gain. Might makes right and no one acknowledges the elephant in the room. That elephant is crushing small producers one click at a time. How the hell do elephants even click?? Poach those predatory pachyderms!
I'll be waiting...and in the vein of this particular thread...if you had a scene where you began with it on, I'd buy it Edited by - algaliarept on 5/8/2010 1:18:13 PM
I thought of going to Video Exclusive for videos not stocked by the rent-by-mail companies, but for the gas used in the trip, return trip, and rental, it's almost the same cost to buy used.
It's well past time that copyright went away. Let artists stand, succeed or fail more on their own merit, than by some over-inflated, self-important business model that has more to do with money grubbing and legalese than with artistic merit.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
I wholeheartedly disagree with ending copyrighting. Performers, artists, etc should get paid for the work that they do. In fact I think that there should've been some sort of residual system for re-broadcasting their work.
It is so funny reading any article that CHAMPIONS piracy, and all the fools that cheer it. All these people really want is to have things for free available to them, and yet they sometimes take these laughable airs that they are standing up for the little people being used and abused by big business and the government.... it is just pathetic and asinine. Why should the industries effected by piracy have to prove a thing - when you download or share copyrighted material without the owner's consent, you are breaking the law. The bottom line is that if the activity is illegal, that activity should not be tolerated, much less championed as if it is a good thing that does no harm.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 8 2010 : 4:52PM
^Just because a person cheers the article doesn't mean they agree with everything in it. Artists should be compensated for their work more than the pimps that parasite their profits. Tech companies should keep up with consumer demands as the people insist. Governments will probably just use this orchestrated situation in order to further intrude upon the internet and it's users. I'd bet that the torrent sites that allow such an easy access to free downloads will soon turn their backs on the people and hand names and addresses over to some bureaucratic group of jack-booted thugs with a badge. Problem + Reaction = Solution
Wicked Pictures,Vouyer Media, Axel Braun Productions, Marc Dorcel, JoyBear Pictures, abbywinters.com 1390 Posts 7/05
Posted - May 8 2010 : 7:49PM
^ Zaer is purposely conflating publicly-held and privately-held business models, and he knows this. It makes having a conversation in five-sense reality with him impossible - but I commend you for doing so with your usual grace, style, and wit. Roads To Moscow / Twitter: @roadstomoscow
Thanks, but I kind of think we'd all be better off if I learned to stop feeding the trolls :P
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 8 2010 : 11:13PM
That's an interesting rhetorical technique, simply declare any argument you disagree with to be trolling. Now the only person I can see trolling in this thread is Brandon. Because though he's been in the industry for years, even he can't put forth any data to support his thesis about filesharing causing a significant downturn in profits in the industry, so he sticks to trolling posts. Furthermore, I merely asked for those in the industry to provide data to justify their complaints about filesharing, however thus far they have refused to disclose any. And thus their claims can't be taken seriously on this issue. Because without data one is left with debating the issue using opinions and that's ultimately futile. Edited by - Zaer on 5/9/2010 5:32:46 AM
Rhetorical technique? His thesis? In case you didn't notice, this is a message board on the internet. No one is defending a thesis, and that you take this as seriously as you do proves little more than your familiarity with forensics and the amount of arrogant pleasure you take in beating people over the head with your "superior" knowledge of argumentative style. Should we all follow Robert's Rules as well? Brandon and others have stated openly that their business is off and that they feel that filesharing is part of the problem and they should not have to disclose sensitive business data in an internet forum to do that. Why don't you look up the Pink Visual Vs. Brazzers case if you truly need data, but I suspect you don't care about the actual facts, you just want to justify piracy. Piracy is theft, and that is inarguable. Zaer, why do you so steadfastly defend filesharing and piracy?
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - May 9 2010 : 2:59AM
Alrighty, I know you're basically trolling at this point and just pop up in every one of these threads to repeat the same points over and over again, but here is a New York Times article with the exact same info. I'm not exactly heart-broken that the fuckers at major labels are going broke, but the historically unprecedented drop in sales is clearly connected to downloading and only those who for some reason feel the need to justify their downloading habits would try to insist otherwise. I know lots of people who download music and movies but they don't feel the need to come up with these elaborate but poorly argued rationalizations.
BTW note that reliable factual reporting still has to come from the newspaper dinosaurs. In fact, internet 'news' is massively reliant on newspapers for their info, as are TV and radio newsrooms, as anyone who has spent anytime in them can tell you. Edited by - BlackSix on 5/9/2010 3:20:22 AM
I am getting a PHd in Seeing-Everything-I've-Worked-For-Go-Out-The-Window-nomics and my thesis is very concise: I do not feel anyone is doing me any favours by allowing my content (or anyone else's) to be file-shared, uploaded to tube sites, or any other manner of cutting a producer out of benefiting from the creation of it. To learn that the main proponents of the tubes come from within the industry itself and are willing architects of their competitor's destruction makes me ill. Worse, it makes me lose boners. Not that I didn't already have enough of a problem with that but this only makes it worse. If I admitted that my business has taken a 30-40% hit over the past 2 years, there are those who would merely counter that my product sucks and I should put more money into it. Right, right. I'll get right on that. Trolling boards has been very lucrative for me. All I'm asking is that each and every one of you think about my boners and how important they are to me. Think long and hard, please. Long and hard.....there you go. I'm getting a chubby already. Thank you! You see! It's teamwork that will solve this mess. Now let's call this whole content theft thing a mulligan and start over. Brazzers, you keep your tubes but you only get to put your content on them. Are we cool? Great.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 9 2010 : 5:02PM
Not in my country. So you follow your laws, and I'll follow mine.Bull... Or at the very least they are not so dissimilar that one example can't serve for both.Hear hear! The people who want to support an artist, will (And do)
It is illegal for ANYONE to violate any of the rights provided by the copyright law to the copyright holder... actually enforcing it is another matter, but there is no doubt that it is ALWAYS illegal to steal copyrighted material no matter where the theft may occur.
For all these demands of pornographers opening up their financial records to prove an argument on a pointless internet forum... How about those who claim to be very open to piracy, yet claim you still buy lots of porn too, open up your financial statements, let's see your credit card records. Don't want to do that? Well then you shouldn't make such claims. Put forth your data. Edited by - just_me on 5/9/2010 6:08:00 PM
