Why buy porn anymore? (page 6)

Author	Post
dannydeviant Member 10 Posts 3/08	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 4:47AM It will be a sad day when the mom and pop porno store can no longer operate because there are no dvd's to sell and at the same time production companies have to result to vod services only in order to make some money. With porn becomming more and more mainstream it looses it's perverse persona, becomming as generic as the latest cast of American Idol. Quality is far more important than quantity and if we want access to quality smut then we must pay. Think of this next time you illegaly download a torrent. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 8:46AM "Problem is there aren't enough customers left." Source?? Not enough customers?!?! Ya... the porn industry is REALLY hurting because of internet downloads.... I suspect that crap product (not scat) has way more to do with any slump in sales (If in fact there is any such slump) "With a majority of habitual thieves who don't respect intellectual property a modern society which wealth is based on intellectual activity cannot survive." Majority? Thieves?? That statement is SO rife with unsupported assertions and outright inflammatory rhetoric that it's not really worth considering or responding to. "Thinking that only a miner or a steel worker produces values is soo outdated." I don't recall anyone in this discussion saying that at all.... "Some 2.3 million people skanked Radiohead’s latest album from BitTorrent sources - during the two months it was legally available for free." And they still made more money off it than they ever would have selling it through the 'normal' channels... so I didn't bother to respond, because I'd already said that and it's yet to have been refuted. "It will be a sad day when the mom and pop porno store can no longer operate" Why? Isn't that "Free Enterprise"? Someone comes along and does what you do, only does it better, faster and cheaper and you lose your job... Sort of like Economic Darwinism... Or do you also lament that refrigerators put Ice-men out of work? The very nature of media distribution is changing, and the change is SO new, it's almost impossible to predict what this evolution is likely to result in... But I think you can safely bet that it's NOT going to evolve into mom&pop stores and NO ONE sharing files electronically... So again, to return to the OT... Why buy porn anymore? I have to once again say one of the big reasons is to support the industry while it sorts out how it's going to work in this, the emerging digital distribution age... [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 10:07AM "Or do you also lament that refrigerators put Ice-men out of work?" My new favorite quote from ADT. Funnnny. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 1:26PM NewRomancer wrote: Or do you also lament that refrigerators put Ice-men out of work? Click to expand Yeah, bad development for porn. Now it all comes down to the pizza boy. But seriously. People didn't rob the Ice-men's vans to fill up their fridges. So your analogy doesn't fit. Edited by - juha on 8/28/2008 1:29:54 PM [Link]

hollywood woody Senior Member Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 5:13PM Fingerbangger wrote: Hollywood , what are the big company's doing to stop this? Is there no way to put something in the code when the scene is compressed so it's not so easy to copy? I have the new version of photoshop and I can only use it on one computer, because it has some kind of protection. I know there will always be someone who can copy it, but at least if it's harder the masses will not have the knowledge. Why is there no R&D on this method? or is there? Click to expand we have employeed a company called nexicon that surfs the web and finds any illegal downloaded material, when they find it we make them take it down and charge them for the downloads. They think twice about putting it up again, then do it anyhow. [Link]
hollywood woody Senior Member Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 5:19PM NewRomancer wrote: Every attempt at copy protection is cracked almost before it is even introduced... And failing that, there's always the analogue hole... A company is better off concentrating on pleasing their customers and keeping them, then waisting time and money trying to stop something that is unstoppable... Click to expand How can you call them customers when they are just watching stuff for free? A customer is someone who spends money for your product that allows you to continue to remain in business to make more products. Why is it so hard to grasp that concept of business 101. You are saying Cadillac should concentrate on making better cars so when a thief steals it, he can be more comfortable and enjoy it more. [Link]
hollywood woody Senior Member Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 5:25PM licker wrote: hollywood woody wrote: how can i turn someone into a customer who is getting my product for free? Click to expand Easy. They do it themselves. Back in the nineties I saw some images from a site called "ALS Scan" which were posted on usenet. I was impressed with the quality and the beautiful girls, so I went looking for the website. A site I had NEVER HEARD OF. When I found the site, I was even more impressed. I gave them my credit card number and bought movies from them by mail order. I paid for a subscription to their site so I could download more of their images. Do you really think that out of all the millions of men who saw those images, I was the only one to hand over any money? More than ten years later, their material still gets broadcast around the net illegally. It always has, and guess what. Their company is a HUGE SUCCESS. They have hired hundreds of top models. They are making so much money they can fly to exotic locations around the world and shoot in fancy, expensive resort villas. Do you believe they would have made so much money if no-one had ever heard of them? Do you really think all the money that flowed in to their company after their pictures were distributed has "hurt" them? The situation is not as simple as you might think. Click to expand That is promotion, nothing wrong with that, we do it. We are talking about people taking movies illegally without consent and people watching them for no charge, appples and oranges, two different things. wewill be making behind the scenes free on cezarcapone.com, it's free, but it's our decision to do that, not a third party. [Link]
MikeSouth Deactivated User 511 Posts 11/02	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 6:01PM hollywood woody wrote: we have employeed a company called nexicon that surfs the web and finds any illegal downloaded material, when they find it we make them take it down and charge them for the downloads. They think twice about putting it up again, then do it anyhow. Click to expand woody...not trying to be the fly in the ointmentbut nexicon isnt doing much for you your stuff is all over usenet. from the newest releases to some of the oldest full dvds, menus and all [Link]
hollywood woody Senior Member Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 7:57PM MikeSouth wrote: hollywood woody wrote: we have employeed a company called nexicon that surfs the web and finds any illegal downloaded material, when they find it we make them take it down and charge them for the downloads. They think twice about putting it up again, then do it anyhow. Click to expand woody...not trying to be the fly in the ointmentbut nexicon isnt doing much for you your stuff is all over usenet. from the newest releases to some of the oldest full dvds, menus and all Click to expand I meaning Cezar Capone. I am not longer doing anything except Cezar Capone and Am District, which we have completely revamped. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:02PM Gunzo wrote: I think it's just fine if they go after real piracy, people who sell bootlegs or set up paysites with unlicensed material. Click to expand FYI, people who sell bootlegs OFTEN get the source material online. i know, because these same lowlifes FOR YEARS walked into my stores trying to sell bootleg copies. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:09PM jaden wrote: This industry should look at what the music industry has done, sell scenes on like a server like a Iporn. Every scene from every production company is for sale. Click to expand and producers of features would chop their product into 10-15 minute segments? jaden wrote: For me, Pirates 2 is a definite buy, and is deserving of it. Click to expand because you wouldn't want to buy (and view) it scene-by-scene, as advocated above? [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:15PM Gunzo wrote: And it's funny today to see all the rappers blinging it out on MTV, and then the viewer is told that illegal downloading hurts the artists Click to expand LOL. you do know that most of those individuals don't actually own that "bling", right? don't believe everything you see on MTV. look at rihanna's current financial status. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:30PM BlackSix wrote: Eventually there will only be pay sites and the pirates. Click to expand don't you mean just pirates? paysites get ripped and illegally distributed like other content producers. paysites are even better targets, because they hesitate to protect content with DRM to placate their customers. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:51PM tricia_devereaux wrote: We have a brand new general manager who is really great and loves solving problems like this even more than I do, with probably a lot more ability to be able to do it. Click to expand congratulations on that acquisition. class act and good person all the way around. [Link]

arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:53PM juha wrote: Lonborg wrote: Here is an example of what I'm talking about. ...Everything else could be individually downloaded on a case by case basis for $2-6(based on resolution size). This is reasonable and in line with the pricing structure for other forms of entertainment. Click to expand Thanks for explaining. I see one problem with this business model. Click to expand i see more than one. this "busines model" also supposes that pirates will not ever target those individual scenes, and make them available for free online. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:57PM licker wrote: Somebody needs to invent "PayPal for grown ups", since PayPal refuses to handle adult products. Click to expand paypal does allow for adult DVD sales. i know, because 1 of my sites uses paypal as a payment method, and i was sure to clear it with paypal in advance. it's ebay that doesn't allow paypal. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:30AM "How can you call them customers when they are just watching stuff for free?" I'm not referring to the people who download for free as customers, nor can I imagine why anyone would... "You are saying Cadillac should concentrate on making better cars so when a thief steals it, he can be more comfortable and enjoy it more." Are you suggesting that Cadillac should make WORSE cars so that when someone steals one (Something that is statistically rare but also something you're NEVER going to STOP from happening) they're uncomfortable()??? Are you actually suggesting that someone should what, buy one dvd for their home, buy another dvd for in their car, buy a digital download for their laptop and another one for their iPhone??? Not that downloading something for free has any relevance to stealing a car... Downloading a copy of something does nothing to 'take away' from the original. What I'm saying hollywood woody is that there is NOTHING you're ever going to do to stop some people from ripping your dvds and sharing them with some others... If your business plan is solid, if your product fits your consumers needs and wants well enough, that will be such a small percentage compared to the people who are buying your stuff you won't even notice them. "protect content with DRM" Show me ANY DRM that hasn't been cracked... There's no point in putting a deadbolt lock on a screen door. Were 8 posts in a row really necessary? [Link]
zaffer Member 208 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:52AM The right marketing and business strategies are the only way to make successful business - if somebody know better way I would ask him/her to share it with us. Everybody decides for himself how much to spent to improve the security, how much to improve the product and so on. But only a fool will completely ignore what the customer wants and what the customer needs are. And because somebody mention youtube. I can quote what google(owner of you tube) said about youtube and the TV companies - not exact quote bu the same meaning: This is the reality. Instead of trying to delete content from youtube the TV companies have to change their business model. And some of them have change it. Well not because google said that - I said it because it's a kind of proof that google was right about that. [Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 10:37AM hollywood woody wrote: we have employeed a company called nexicon that surfs the web and finds any illegal downloaded material, when they find it we make them take it down and charge them for the downloads. They think twice about putting it up again, then do it anyhow. Click to expand Now that's a job for me! Are they interviewing? [Link]
ninja1 Senior Member 2939 Posts 1/08	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 3:10PM Clam Digger wrote: Now that's a job for me! Are they interviewing? Click to expand I would think it's an extremely tough job. The "pirates" aren't gonna have every scene neatly categorized and properly identified. The only way to know that a file titled "hot_chicks_do_anal.057.001" is one of Woody's protected scenes is to download it and watch it. Imagine all the crappy porn you would have to download and watch. Imagine all the blogs/forums/newsgroups you would have to subscribe to and monitor. That would be torture; it would require an army of websurfers to do the job right. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 4:14PM And even then they wouldn't have a hope in hell of finding even a FRACTION of it... so why even bother? It's like trying to stop the flow of cocaine into America... For all the busts and such, never has ONE single addict not been able to get his hands on s score... DRM is like the War On Drugs in that it's a colossal WOMBAT that will NEVER be more than trying to fill holes in a giant sponge with bandaids... [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:37PM NewRomancer wrote: And even then they wouldn't have a hope in hell of finding even a FRACTION of it... so why even bother? Click to expand There are many crimes that go unsolved. Should we stop bothering with trying to solve all crimes? Just make it a free for all out there? If so I doubt you'll be continuing to steal porn for very long after someone has stolen your computer. Of course you can steal another one but your high speed connection will be gone after people have stolen the wires for money, the cars of the employees who work there, the service trucks, etc. Let me know your address when this happens so I can come steal a living room set from you. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:57PM NewRomancer wrote: "protect content with DRM" Show me ANY DRM that hasn't been cracked... There's no point in putting a deadbolt lock on a screen door. Click to expand i'm not rooted on either side of that fence (DRM or non-DRM). of course DRM can be defeated; i hope no one inferred something different than that from my post. however, if you were to view the problem of online piracy as a gas leak, then DRM does slow the "rate of effusion", especially amongst computer users who are not interested in investing the time to defeat DRM. if a burglar is given a choice between a home with a dog and alarm and a home with no dog or alarm, they usually opt for the home without safeguards. though we know the dog and the alarm can be easily defeated, the burglar will likely choose the home that presents less inherent risk of detection. likewise, if a pirate wishes to rip content from a paysite, s/he will opt for the easier target first: the site that offers pics with no watermark and WM video over the DRM site. NewRomancer wrote: Were 8 posts in a row really necessary? Click to expand i don't log onto ADT as often as i'd like. so i responded to the thread as i read it, replying to the oldest posts first. Edited by - arkdvd on 8/29/2008 6:59:25 PM [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 7:12PM NewRomancer wrote: Downloading a copy of something does nothing to 'take away' from the original. Click to expand Since you obviously believe that intellectual property rights don't exist and that people should create and give away what they create since their creation has no value to you can you answer a question for me? How would you feel if after working for 2 weeks at work your employer didn't pay you since they determined that by not paying you they didn't take away anything except your effort? [Link]

licker Senior Member Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic 1141 Posts 8/03	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 12:32AM arkdvd wrote: however, if you were to view the problem of online piracy as a gas leak, then DRM does slow the "rate of effusion", especially amongst computer users who are not interested in investing the time to defeat DRM. Click to expand I'm not convinced of this. I suspect that there is more illegal copying of DRM material than there is of unprotected files. That sounds counter intuitive, but the reason I suspect it is this: DRM makes legitimately purchased movies hard to play. Any one of a thousand trivial technical things can go wrong to make it impossible for a person to play the movie they just paid real money for. Just pushing one wrong button in windows can deactivate a whole collection of DRM videos, permanently. This creates a situation where the "pirated" product with DRM removed is actually of higher quality than the DRM product it was copied from. (And yes, it goes without saying that it will be copied, because all DRM can be defeated.) So you have a situation where the paying customers are getting an inferior product to that received by the illegal copiers. Some of them will have paid money but have no movie they can watch. It stands to reason that this will drive a portion of those paying customers to "jump the fence" and stop paying. Once they are outside the fence, it will be hard to win them back. I hope people will consider this issue very carefully before they apply DRM to their movies. [Link]
cand86 Member 164 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 1:58AM I watch a lot of porn from small, indie, non-mainstream companies that need all the help they can get to stay afloat and compete. So I would never steal/watch for free for them, because I know that every dollar I spend towards it tells them there's a market so they keep making more! Also, because the porn I like usually isn't mainstream, it's hard to find it being disseminated anywhere on the Web (though occasionally you do get lucky). It's pretty much required to purchase it. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:25AM Flash... You analogies have no relevance... sorry... (Filesharing and the theft of physical property aren't even close to being the same thing...) "then DRM does slow the "rate of effusion" Not even a little bit... "Since you obviously believe that intellectual property rights don't exist and that people should create and give away what they create since their creation has no value" Show me a quote where I said ANY such thing??? I have never said someones creation has no value and should be given away! Please don't project your own agenda onto my posts, thank you. This issue has nothing to do with rights... 'Rights' don't matter a tinkers cuss, because rights are only as valuable as ones ability to enforce them. The FACT is people have always and will ALWAYS 'fileshare' over the internet and there's not a DAMN thing that can be done to ever stop it in any rate that comes close to being worth the effort put in (unlike some other kinds of crimes that some people here want to erroneously try to draw comparisons to)... The business model (Especially when it comes to distribution) MUST change or companies who don't will die out. "you have a situation where the paying customers are getting an inferior product" And again it is the business that is called upon to change... Or suffer the consequences.... The harder they try to grip, the more and more people will 'jump the fence' to enjoy ease-of-use... Or didn't Gran Moff Tarken teach us anything? Cand86... you said "I would never steal/watch for free". DO you copy the original content to your iPod, or your laptop so that it's easier to carry around? Have you ever taken your fav clips from a bunch of different movies and assembled your own Best Of DVD? If you have, and even if you didn't copy those scenes yourself, then according to the DRM fascists, you're a thief... for copying something you already purchased for your own use... -IF- there has in fact been any decline in the sale of porn, I'd suggest one only need look as far as the "Does Anything Bug You In Porn" thread for a LONG list of reasons for it, that are a LOT more probable than filesharing... Edited by - NewRomancer on 8/30/2008 11:34:35 AM [Link]
Zoid Senior Member Boobies and Anal 2004 Posts 5/04	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:50AM arkdvd wrote: however, if you were to view the problem of online piracy as a gas leak, then DRM does slow the "rate of effusion", especially amongst computer users who are not interested in investing the time to defeat DRM. Click to expand Aren't you being a bit too optimistic? Piracy is not gas leak, it's the Niagra falls. I seriously doubt that DRM slows anything. And why would average users who download illegal content need to bother with DRM in the first place? Most people don't even know what it is. It takes one hacker-wannabe to rip some paysite and publish its contents on usenet, p2p and numerous blogs and forums. Then anybody can download everything without any DRM. All you need is Google. likewise, if a pirate wishes to rip content from a paysite, s/he will opt for the easier target first: the site that offers pics with no watermark and WM video over the DRM site. Click to expand I don't think that's the case. Firstly, let's define 'pirate'. We are not talking about a dozen of wizards in the whole world who do this sort of thing, and who have some kind of quota to meet. The problem is that these days anyone can be a pirate. Anyone who's a legit member of a paysite can rip it (or a part of it) and publish it elsewhere. Anyone with a computer and some free software can rip a dvd. I think that more 'established' pirate groups would rather target popular websites/companies, than the easy (and unknown) ones. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 12:31PM "Piracy is not gas leak, it's the Niagra falls." Hardly... especially given that most people in the world don't even have a computer, or access to the internet... [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 2:22PM NewRomancer wrote: Flash... You analogies have no relevance... sorry... (Filesharing and the theft of physical property aren't even close to being the same thing...) Click to expand Not paying you isn't the theft of a physical property. It is not giving you money for your time. I know you refuse to accept that anything else in the world is the same as stealing movies online as that is how you justify your theft to yourself and everyone else around you. However I still am interested how would you feel when you didn't get paid for your time. What would your reaction be when it is your time that has been stolen. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 2:31PM There are things that I have produced that are available for free over torrent or other 'pirate' methods. Me, I'm chuffed that someone would think enough of my stuff TO pirate it... and I love the idea that someone I might never have reached in the first place might have access to what I've made. Not that this issue is about me in the least. Edited by - NewRomancer on 8/30/2008 2:31:38 PM [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:26PM juha wrote (in response to Harri Patel): Rationalize your stealing as much as you want. Click to expand Flash wrote (in response to NewRomancer): I know you refuse to accept that anything else in the world is the same as stealing movies online as that is how you justify your theft to yourself and everyone else around you. Click to expand Is it at least possible to acknowledge that these issues can be discussed in the abstract, in the same manner that it is possible to discuss other current interesting sociological, economic, and legal matters, and to refrain from making irresponsible personal accusations against those who make an argument you don't like, or cannot otherwise counter? I know you know nothing about me; and a re-reading of NewRomancer's comments in this thread reveals nothing that would justify the comment about him. [Link]
cobalt60 Knuckle Dragger 2046 Posts 2/03	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:28PM If chuffed is to stoked as boo is to yah, then I believe I would feel the same way. Unfortunately, my creative output = epic fail. No, I don't really talk this way. Point is, I, too, am a hypocrite. It would chuff me to no end to have my shit jenkemed on the torrentwebz. [Danny Glover]I'm too old for this shit.[/Danny Glover] [Link]
cobalt60 Knuckle Dragger 2046 Posts 2/03	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:30PM In a parallel universe, I make as much sense as Harri, but with more dick jokes. [Link]

Zoid Senior Member Boobies and Anal 2004 Posts 5/04	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 8:11PM NewRomancer wrote: "Piracy is not gas leak, it's the Niagra falls." Hardly... especially given that most people in the world don't even have a computer, or access to the internet... Click to expand There are 1.4 billion interrs worldwide. It's plenty, considering that in some countries -- for example China with its 250mln interrs -- nearly everything is "illegal" when it comes to software, movies, etc. Oh yeah, sure -- it's just a tiny leak that you can fix with a magical DRM system. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 8:50PM Zoid wrote: I don't think that's the case. Click to expand i know it to be the case. but since i can't reveal how i know, you win. I think that more 'established' pirate groups would rather target popular websites/companies, than the easy (and unknown) ones. Click to expand illogical leap here, because that line of thought requires you to assign "popular websites/companies" with DRM usage, and "easy ones" with non-DRM usage. look around. sample a few of the VOD sites (joining is not required) and see if your idea floats. [Link]
arkdvd Member 103 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 8:57PM Zoid wrote: Oh yeah, sure -- it's just a tiny leak that you can fix with a magical DRM system. Click to expand DRM is not a fix, nor a solution, and hasn't been presented (in this thread) as such. DRM is a moderate deterrent to casual users. the casual users choose the path of least resistance. why try to defeat CSS when ripping a DVD? why bother messing around with DRM? why spend time downloading content from a file sharing service? every measure taken deters SOME amount of potential pirates. isn't that why tube sites are so popular? even to the point of people choosing convenience OVER quality? [Link]
RandomPrecision Senior Member Enjoy! 8175 Posts 3/06	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 9:00PM Frankly, I don't know much about DRM. But if it's anything like most anti theft stuff, it will only make things harder for legitimate consumers. Thieves find ways around the stuff when they have to. I bought an MP3 player some time ago. The goddamn thing was in one of those blister packs. I don't know if they use those to deter theft or not but they obviously never gave a second thought to the consumer trying to get the fucking thing out of the package. I was recently looking for a new MP3 player. Every one of them was in the glass display case and the attendant was nowhere to be found. My car "security system" has prevented ME from driving my own car more times than it's deterred a thief. In fact, the one time when I needed it to work, the thief was a friend who simply stole the keys, opened the door, stole my stereo and put the keys back on the hook. [Link]
Zoid Senior Member Boobies and Anal 2004 Posts 5/04	Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:25PM arkdvd wrote: because that line of thought requires you to assign "popular websites/companies" with DRM usage, and "easy ones" with non-DRM usage. Click to expand Why? I don't know of any particular pattern of DRM usage among companies/websites; but if DRM can be cracked, how is it of any concern to a potential pirate? Take your example with houses and alarms: if, as a thief, you have the code to the alarm, doesn't the alarm simply become irrelevant? the casual users choose the path of least resistance. why try to defeat CSS when ripping a DVD? why bother messing around with DRM? Click to expand Because some people have nothing better to do? As far as I know, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to copy a movie. There are programs that can rip protected DVDs. I believe there is also software that strips DRM from WMVs (or at least there was). In any case, it seems like a matter of pushing a button because there are some "uncasual" users who create such software. why spend time downloading content from a file sharing service? Click to expand Uhh.. because you don't have to pay for it, and can get away with it. Isn't it kinda obvious? every measure taken deters SOME amount of potential pirates. Click to expand It also deters some amount of legitimate users. The only problem is that it takes only ONE pirate to neutralize your measures (and spread your content all over the net). isn't that why tube sites are so popular? even to the point of people choosing convenience OVER quality? Click to expand You mean porn tube sites? I have no idea how popular they are or whether they are popular at all. Edited by - Zoid on 8/30/2008 11:26:53 PM [Link]
licker Senior Member Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic 1141 Posts 8/03	Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 3:41AM Flash wrote: Not paying you isn't the theft of a physical property. It is not giving you money for your time. Click to expand Flash, this is not a particularly good example. I suspect you may find that failing to pay an employee is not a crime at all. Not any kind of crime. I am not a lawyer, but I guess that at most it would be breach of contract. When was the last time you heard of police arresting someone for breach of contract? This is a civil issue, and unpaid employees must usually seek redress in civil court. Criminal prosecution does not apply. You could actually make a good argument that copyright infringement should also be a civil issue, and be treated in exactly the same way as unpaid wages, with redress limited to only the actual financial loss that can be proven. From your tone, however, I would guess that you would oppose such an idea. [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 11:52AM "There are 1.4 billion interrs worldwide" Have you got a source for that claim? And even if there are, on a planet of 6+Billion people, 1.4 isn't very many... "every measure taken deters SOME amount of potential pirates" What a crock... any schmuck who puts half an effort into it can crack/rip/decode any "DRM" attempt... or find someone else's work that will.... All DRM is doing is making pirates out of legit users... People who don't want to have to buy mp3s for each of their portable players... [Link]
Zoid Senior Member Boobies and Anal 2004 Posts 5/04	Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 11:59AM NewRomancer wrote: Have you got a source for that claim? Click to expand http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm And obviously, Internet isn't the only way to distribute illegal stuff. In places where they don't have Internet, there are markets and stores that sell bootlegged cds/dvds for a couple of cents. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 3:27PM licker wrote: Flash, this is not a particularly good example. Click to expand I know that's not the greatest example but I'm trying to get people who feel that downloading illegal copies is acceptable to at least answer as to how they would feel if people took their primary source of income away from them. NewRomancer claims to work in some sort of industry where his/her material gets taken that way but from his/her answer I suspect that isn't the primary source of income since I doubt anyone would be happy sitting in a ramshackle apartment not eating because they weren't making any money but people where enjoying the efforts of their work for free. The reason for my "tone" or anger as I'll put it towards illegal downloading is that not only does it hurt the people involved in making the content but it also hurts every customer who actually purchases the material. And we have hit the point where it appears to have become socially acceptable. When I try to get information on a foreign release to find out if it has an English language track, before purchasing it I get bombarded by people telling me how much of an idiot I am because it's available free at [insert stolen movie site name here] with an English track. When I search for foreign releases of a movie I want that isn't available here I have to sort through pages of rip sites and the like before I get to legit sites selling the item legally. My anger is towards the fact that I am becoming the minority and as a result I'm going to have less entertainment to enjoy because as the money goes down less and less will come out and more and more of the people involved in making it will end up having to do something else. And to top it all off, I'm sure when the entertainment goes away the people who are and support illegal downloading will be one of the first ones to bitch when there isn't anything new out there. And this doesn't just go for the adult movie industry, but to the mainstream movie industry, music industry, etc. It all comes down to one thing, and one thing only. If you are downloading something for nothing and you don't have the permission of the current copyright owner to do so, you have taken something that doesn't belong to you. And, in various ways, you have stolen from a wide range of people. And I have a giant problem with that. And I'd like for the various industries to all come together and find a way to go after the people who do it. At least if you are stealing something from a store you risk getting caught. I think if the industries banded together, quietly were able to take over some of these domains that allow people to partake in such practice and were able to legally go after them for the cost of the item if they had bought it, for every one downloaded, plus a fine, plus legal fees and then be able to go after the owners of the domain there would be a significant decrease in this activity. I know people are now going to say that everything stolen doesn't equal a sale, but once you have stolen it then I think that the companies have the right to come after you for the MSRP of the item since you chose to steal it. And when I use the term "you" in this I'm referring to anyone who partakes in illegal downloading, not any specific poster here or anywhere. [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 4:33PM licker wrote: You could actually make a good argument that copyright infringement should also be a civil issue, and be treated in exactly the same way as unpaid wages, with redress limited to only the actual financial loss that can be proven. Click to expand Absent aggravating factors, copyright infringement is largely treated as a civil matter in the United States. With respect to available remedies, the primary difference from breach-of-contract claims is that, if the copyrightable material has in fact been duly registered with the U.S. Copyright Office, fairly stiff statutory damages apply in the event that greater "actual economic damages" cannot be demonstrated by the claimant. However, if the claimant hasn't duly registered the copyright, then he/she is only entitled to actual economic damages as determined by the court. -------------- [typos] Edited by - bob on 8/31/2008 4:34:50 PM [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 3:37AM Flash wrote: The reason for my "tone" or anger as I'll put it towards illegal downloading is that not only does it hurt the people involved in making the content but it also hurts every customer who actually purchases the material. And we have hit the point where it appears to have become socially acceptable. Click to expand That online stealing has become socially acceptable really pisses me off! In one thread about Devon new member ycblows posted a link to her latest scene. Obviously he thinks he does Devon fans a favour and doesn't think about the consequences. If people steal the scene instead of buying it Devon won't get hired again. Everybody who is a true fan of a girl buys her scenes to keep her in business. Edited by - juha on 9/1/2008 3:39:39 AM [Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08	Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 11:50AM "but from his/her answer I suspect that isn't the primary source of income" You suspect erroneously... I have looked around a little and I don't see any good reason to take seriously any claim made by "http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm" [Link]
JimGunn Member Where The Teens Are 173 Posts 1/02	Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 12:10PM Harri Patel wrote: There is absolutely no case to be made that this is correct. If someone who does not, and never has, participated in the retail porn market obtains an unauthorized copy of a movie via the internet, it has no effect on either the supply of, or the demand for, the movie, and there should be no effect on the price of the movie. It's not a lost sale; it's not a unit of inventory that goes missing; it isn't anything. Click to expand Are you a nitwit or are you just amoral? Have you never heard of theft of services or theft by deception or copyright infringement? Just because there is no physical product being whisked away under someone's jacket doesn't mean that no one is hurt when someone enjoys the benefit of getting something for free that they have no right to. In particular the owner and distributor of the movie are hurt because that is one less sale than they should have gotten. And don't you dare say that that consumer wasn't going to make a purchase anyway, because that is for one a lie in most cases and two irrelevant. If they don't want to pay let them do without the benefits of the producer's hard labor and investment. If you get caught stealing a cable tv signal or re-broadcasting an NFL game, there is also no physical product being taken away from a location, but those crimes are commonly punished severely. The audacity of some people to justify their bad actions never ceases to amaze me. JimGunn.com / Sisterlicious.com [Link]
pornnookie Member 58 Posts 2/01	Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 2:07PM When a person state that they download cause they don’t want to see greedy multibillion companies make lots of money when their artists almost get nothing – that is just bullshit. What they are trying to do is to justify their actions nothing else. Do a recording artist benefit if people choose to download his/her songs illegally? If all people that liked the songs actually bought it legally – yes, otherwise no. I remember an artist that was signed to a big label (label doesn’t exist anymore) – he sold pretty well in the US, first album was gold. Label requested more radio material for the next album – they did a song that was played a lot on MTV and radio and the second album sold gold as well. When they were supposed to start working on their third – they heard the same thing again and this time they said fuck it. He continued to create music and decided to sell his albums as downloads – entire album for 3 dollars with no DRM. If it turned out well it should cover the expenses for the recording of the album and generate money for a tour (which is not for free!). A lot of his fans bought it – but an even bigger part downloaded it for free. The very same people that didn’t pay for it were also the ones that was complaining the most that he didn’t tour in their small cities or even better in their backyard. So – even when artists try to sell music for a good price, try different business models they are still fucked by the majority of people because they want it to be free not willing to pay for it. But they have no good answers either how the artists should be compensated. Also – bands/artists back in the day early in their careers such as U2 and Springsteen didn’t sell well but that was OK since the labels could have lots of artists that didn’t sell that much – they had time to grove since they got money for artists that sold well. Today when margins are less – labels are gone, sales is down, if you don’t sell – then you are gone. No one cares if you could be something big if you had the opportunity to do a few records. OK – this was lots of music related – but pretty much the same thing applies to movies and maybe even more too adult movies. Now people don’t have to embarrass themselves buying movies – no one can see them visiting an adult store or they don’t have to explain for their partner why the credit card bill have a huge post from a XXXDVD company. Instead they can find everything they want for free on various sites but at the same time – they are killing the business. Production values might go down – since margins on the movies produced goes down. Companies might need to close down business. As long as people can download material such as books, music, movies and magazines and not risk anything they will continue to do so. Some people here say that companies (record labels, movie companies) need to change their distribution model – but seriously do you think that would actually change anything? The very same people that download today will continue to do so and most likely that number would increase. Why share credit card information with the risks associated with that when you can download it and pay nothing? And if we look at our youth today that is used with downloading through bittorrent sites. Will they ever pay for anything online? Today it might be hassle for many since they don’t have a credit card and it is a ‘pain’ to ask the parents – and what they are looking for can be found on that bittorrent site. Edited by - pornnookie on 9/1/2008 2:18:52 PM Edited by - pornnookie on 9/1/2008 2:19:47 PM [Link]
licker Senior Member Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic 1141 Posts 8/03	Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 6:59PM pornnookie wrote: If it turned out well it should cover the expenses for the recording of the album and generate money for a tour (which is not for free!). Click to expand This is just plain silly. Touring is how musicians make their money, not record sales. Most bands HAVE to tour to pay back their debts to the record labels, because those companies manipulate the accounts to avoid paying any royalties to the artists. Don't pat yourself on the back for buying CDs. The musicians will never see one cent of your money. Far better to listen to them on the radio, and spend all your money on tickets to their concerts. If you really must have a CD, buy a used one. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08	Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 2:25AM licker wrote: This is just plain silly. Touring is how musicians make their money, not record sales. Most bands HAVE to tour to pay back their debts to the record labels, because those companies manipulate the accounts to avoid paying any royalties to the artists. Don't pat yourself on the back for buying CDs. The musicians will never see one cent of your money. Far better to listen to them on the radio, and spend all your money on tickets to their concerts. If you really must have a CD, buy a used one. Click to expand This is an incredibly simplistic breakdown of the music industry. You're assuming several things. First, you're assuming that the artist tours. Not all artists do. There are some who gasp make their money exclusively off of album sales, and cannot tour for any number of reasons. Second, you're lumping every record company into the same boat. If a band sells their own CD, that they put out themselves, then they in fact see all of the proceeds of it. It's what they'll use to pay back the money required to put the album out in the first place. Unless we're talking about a big band, the money they make on tour, playing in bars to 10, 20, maybe as much as 50 people, is basically enough to get them to the next town and pay for their meals along the way. Third, supposing they get absolutely no airplay, which is actually the vast majority of artists out there, then listening to them on the radio simply isn't an option - unless it's a campus or community station, in which case they don't get paid for it anyway. Fourth, what if the band has a record company, like so many small companies out there, that simply splits production costs with them straight down the middle, essentially providing the band with twice the money to record and release their album, which will be repaid with the profits of sales - again, split down the middle. In any of these scenarios, which probably apply to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 98% of all people who refer to themselves as "musicians", how are you helping them by not buying their CD? [Link]

Author

Post

dannydeviant
Member

10 Posts
3/08

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 4:47AM

It will be a sad day when the mom and pop porno store can no longer operate because there are no dvd's to sell and at the same time production companies have to result to vod services only in order to make some money. With porn becomming more and more mainstream it looses it's perverse persona, becomming as generic as the latest cast of American Idol. Quality is far more important than quantity and if we want access to quality smut then we must pay. Think of this next time you illegaly download a torrent.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 8:46AM

"Problem is there aren't enough customers left."
Source?? Not enough customers?!?! Ya... the porn industry is REALLY hurting because of internet downloads.... I suspect that crap product (not scat) has way more to do with any slump in sales (If in fact there is any such slump)
"With a majority of habitual thieves who don't respect intellectual property a modern society which wealth is based on intellectual activity cannot survive."
Majority? Thieves?? That statement is SO rife with unsupported assertions and outright inflammatory rhetoric that it's not really worth considering or responding to.
"Thinking that only a miner or a steel worker produces values is soo outdated."
I don't recall anyone in this discussion saying that at all....
"Some 2.3 million people skanked Radiohead’s latest album from BitTorrent sources - during the two months it was legally available for free."
And they still made more money off it than they ever would have selling it through the 'normal' channels... so I didn't bother to respond, because I'd already said that and it's yet to have been refuted.
"It will be a sad day when the mom and pop porno store can no longer operate"
Why? Isn't that "Free Enterprise"? Someone comes along and does what you do, only does it better, faster and cheaper and you lose your job... Sort of like Economic Darwinism... Or do you also lament that refrigerators put Ice-men out of work?
The very nature of media distribution is changing, and the change is SO new, it's almost impossible to predict what this evolution is likely to result in... But I think you can safely bet that it's NOT going to evolve into mom&pop stores and NO ONE sharing files electronically...
So again, to return to the OT... Why buy porn anymore? I have to once again say one of the big reasons is to support the industry while it sorts out how it's going to work in this, the emerging digital distribution age...

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 10:07AM

"Or do you also lament that refrigerators put Ice-men out of work?"
My new favorite quote from ADT. Funnnny.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 1:26PM

Yeah, bad development for porn.
Now it all comes down to the pizza boy.
But seriously.
People didn't rob the Ice-men's vans to fill up their fridges.
So your analogy doesn't fit.
Edited by - juha on 8/28/2008 1:29:54 PM

[Link]

hollywood woody
Senior Member

Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin
1567 Posts
2/07

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 5:13PM

we have employeed a company called nexicon that surfs the web and finds any illegal downloaded material, when they find it we make them take it down and charge them for the downloads.
They think twice about putting it up again, then do it anyhow.

[Link]

hollywood woody
Senior Member

Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin
1567 Posts
2/07

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 5:19PM

How can you call them customers when they are just watching stuff for free?
A customer is someone who spends money for your product that allows you to continue to remain in business to make more products.
Why is it so hard to grasp that concept of business 101.
You are saying Cadillac should concentrate on making better cars so when a thief steals it, he can be more comfortable and enjoy it more.

[Link]

hollywood woody
Senior Member

Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin
1567 Posts
2/07

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 5:25PM

licker wrote:
hollywood woody wrote:
how can i turn someone into a customer who is getting my product for free?
Click to expand
Easy. They do it themselves. Back in the nineties I saw some images from a site called "ALS Scan" which were posted on usenet. I was impressed with the quality and the beautiful girls, so I went looking for the website. A site I had NEVER HEARD OF.
When I found the site, I was even more impressed. I gave them my credit card number and bought movies from them by mail order. I paid for a subscription to their site so I could download more of their images. Do you really think that out of all the millions of men who saw those images, I was the only one to hand over any money?
More than ten years later, their material still gets broadcast around the net illegally. It always has, and guess what. Their company is a HUGE SUCCESS. They have hired hundreds of top models. They are making so much money they can fly to exotic locations around the world and shoot in fancy, expensive resort villas.
Do you believe they would have made so much money if no-one had ever heard of them? Do you really think all the money that flowed in to their company after their pictures were distributed has "hurt" them?
The situation is not as simple as you might think.
Click to expand

That is promotion, nothing wrong with that, we do it.
We are talking about people taking movies illegally without consent and people watching them for no charge, appples and oranges, two different things.
wewill be making behind the scenes free on cezarcapone.com, it's free, but it's our decision to do that, not a third party.

[Link]

MikeSouth
Deactivated User

511 Posts
11/02

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 6:01PM

woody...not trying to be the fly in the ointmentbut nexicon isnt doing much for you your stuff is all over usenet. from the newest releases to some of the oldest
full dvds, menus and all

[Link]

hollywood woody
Senior Member

Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin
1567 Posts
2/07

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 7:57PM

I meaning Cezar Capone.
I am not longer doing anything except Cezar Capone and Am District, which we have completely revamped.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:02PM

FYI, people who sell bootlegs OFTEN get the source material online.
i know, because these same lowlifes FOR YEARS walked into my stores trying to sell bootleg copies.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:09PM

and producers of features would chop their product into 10-15 minute segments?

because you wouldn't want to buy (and view) it scene-by-scene, as advocated above?

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:15PM

LOL.
you do know that most of those individuals don't actually own that "bling", right?
don't believe everything you see on MTV.
look at rihanna's current financial status.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:30PM

don't you mean just pirates?
paysites get ripped and illegally distributed like other content producers.
paysites are even better targets, because they hesitate to protect content with DRM to placate their customers.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:51PM

congratulations on that acquisition. class act and good person all the way around.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:53PM

i see more than one.
this "busines model" also supposes that pirates will not ever target those individual scenes, and make them available for free online.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 28 2008 : 9:57PM

paypal does allow for adult DVD sales. i know, because 1 of my sites uses paypal as a payment method, and i was sure to clear it with paypal in advance.
it's ebay that doesn't allow paypal.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:30AM

"How can you call them customers when they are just watching stuff for free?"
I'm not referring to the people who download for free as customers, nor can I imagine why anyone would...
"You are saying Cadillac should concentrate on making better cars so when a thief steals it, he can be more comfortable and enjoy it more."
Are you suggesting that Cadillac should make WORSE cars so that when someone steals one (Something that is statistically rare but also something you're NEVER going to STOP from happening) they're uncomfortable(*)??? Are you actually suggesting that someone should what, buy one dvd for their home, buy another dvd for in their car, buy a digital download for their laptop and another one for their iPhone???
*Not that downloading something for free has any relevance to stealing a car... Downloading a copy of something does nothing to 'take away' from the original.
What I'm saying hollywood woody is that there is NOTHING you're ever going to do to stop some people from ripping your dvds and sharing them with some others... If your business plan is solid, if your product fits your consumers needs and wants well enough, that will be such a small percentage compared to the people who are buying your stuff you won't even notice them.
"protect content with DRM"
Show me ANY DRM that hasn't been cracked... There's no point in putting a deadbolt lock on a screen door.
Were 8 posts in a row really necessary?

[Link]

zaffer
Member

208 Posts
8/08

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:52AM

The right marketing and business strategies are the only way to make successful business - if somebody know better way I would ask him/her to share it with us.
Everybody decides for himself how much to spent to improve the security, how much to improve the product and so on. But only a fool will completely ignore what the customer wants and what the customer needs are.
And because somebody mention youtube. I can quote what google(owner of you tube) said about youtube and the TV companies - not exact quote bu the same meaning:
This is the reality. Instead of trying to delete content from youtube the TV companies have to change their business model.
And some of them have change it. Well not because google said that - I said it because it's a kind of proof that google was right about that.

[Link]

Clam Digger
Deactivated User

Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good.
2268 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 10:37AM

Now that's a job for me! Are they interviewing?

[Link]

ninja1
Senior Member

2939 Posts
1/08

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 3:10PM

I would think it's an extremely tough job. The "pirates" aren't gonna have every scene neatly categorized and properly identified. The only way to know that a file titled
"hot_chicks_do_anal.057.001" is one of Woody's protected scenes is to download it and watch it. Imagine all the crappy porn you would have to download and watch.
Imagine all the blogs/forums/newsgroups you would have to subscribe to and monitor. That would be torture; it would require an army of websurfers to do the job right.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 4:14PM

And even then they wouldn't have a hope in hell of finding even a FRACTION of it... so why even bother?
It's like trying to stop the flow of cocaine into America... For all the busts and such, never has ONE single addict not been able to get his hands on s score...
DRM is like the War On Drugs in that it's a colossal WOMBAT that will NEVER be more than trying to fill holes in a giant sponge with bandaids...

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:37PM

There are many crimes that go unsolved. Should we stop bothering with trying to solve all crimes? Just make it a free for all out there? If so I doubt you'll be continuing to steal porn for very long after someone has stolen your computer. Of course you can steal another one but your high speed connection will be gone after people have stolen the wires for money, the cars of the employees who work there, the service trucks, etc.
Let me know your address when this happens so I can come steal a living room set from you.

[Link]

arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 6:57PM

i'm not rooted on either side of that fence (DRM or non-DRM). of course DRM can be defeated; i hope no one inferred something different than that from my post.
however, if you were to view the problem of online piracy as a gas leak, then DRM does slow the "rate of effusion", especially amongst computer users who are not interested in investing the time to defeat DRM.
if a burglar is given a choice between a home with a dog and alarm and a home with no dog or alarm, they usually opt for the home without safeguards. though we know the dog and the alarm can be easily defeated, the burglar will likely choose the home that presents less inherent risk of detection.
likewise, if a pirate wishes to rip content from a paysite, s/he will opt for the easier target first: the site that offers pics with no watermark and WM video over the DRM site.

i don't log onto ADT as often as i'd like. so i responded to the thread as i read it, replying to the oldest posts first.
Edited by - arkdvd on 8/29/2008 6:59:25 PM

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 7:12PM

Since you obviously believe that intellectual property rights don't exist and that people should create and give away what they create since their creation has no value to you can you answer a question for me? How would you feel if after working for 2 weeks at work your employer didn't pay you since they determined that by not paying you they didn't take away anything except your effort?

[Link]

licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
1141 Posts
8/03

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 12:32AM

I'm not convinced of this. I suspect that there is more illegal copying of DRM material than there is of unprotected files.
That sounds counter intuitive, but the reason I suspect it is this:
DRM makes legitimately purchased movies hard to play. Any one of a thousand trivial technical things can go wrong to make it impossible for a person to play the movie they just paid real money for. Just pushing one wrong button in windows can deactivate a whole collection of DRM videos, permanently.
This creates a situation where the "pirated" product with DRM removed is actually of higher quality than the DRM product it was copied from. (And yes, it goes without saying that it will be copied, because all DRM can be defeated.)
So you have a situation where the paying customers are getting an inferior product to that received by the illegal copiers. Some of them will have paid money but have no movie they can watch. It stands to reason that this will drive a portion of those paying customers to "jump the fence" and stop paying. Once they are outside the fence, it will be hard to win them back.
I hope people will consider this issue very carefully before they apply DRM to their movies.

[Link]

cand86
Member

164 Posts
8/08

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 1:58AM

I watch a lot of porn from small, indie, non-mainstream companies that need all the help they can get to stay afloat and compete. So I would never steal/watch for free for them, because I know that every dollar I spend towards it tells them there's a market so they keep making more!
Also, because the porn I like usually isn't mainstream, it's hard to find it being disseminated anywhere on the Web (though occasionally you do get lucky). It's pretty much required to purchase it.

[Link]

NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:25AM

Flash... You analogies have no relevance... sorry... (Filesharing and the theft of physical property aren't even close to being the same thing...)
"then DRM does slow the "rate of effusion"
Not even a little bit...
"Since you obviously believe that intellectual property rights don't exist and that people should create and give away what they create since their creation has no value"
Show me a quote where I said ANY such thing??? I have never said someones creation has no value and should be given away! Please don't project your own agenda onto my posts, thank you. This issue has nothing to do with rights... 'Rights' don't matter a tinkers cuss, because rights are only as valuable as ones ability to enforce them. The FACT is people have always and will ALWAYS 'fileshare' over the internet and there's not a DAMN thing that can be done to ever stop it in any rate that comes close to being worth the effort put in (unlike some other kinds of crimes that some people here want to erroneously try to draw comparisons to)... The business model (Especially when it comes to distribution) MUST change or companies who don't will die out.
"you have a situation where the paying customers are getting an inferior product"
And again it is the business that is called upon to change... Or suffer the consequences.... The harder they try to grip, the more and more people will 'jump the fence' to enjoy ease-of-use... Or didn't Gran Moff Tarken teach us anything?
Cand86... you said "I would never steal/watch for free". DO you copy the original content to your iPod, or your laptop so that it's easier to carry around? Have you ever taken your fav clips from a bunch of different movies and assembled your own Best Of DVD? If you have, and even if you didn't copy those scenes yourself, then according to the DRM fascists, you're a thief... for copying something you already purchased for your own use...
-IF- there has in fact been any decline in the sale of porn, I'd suggest one only need look as far as the "Does Anything Bug You In Porn" thread for a LONG list of reasons for it, that are a LOT more probable than filesharing...

Edited by - NewRomancer on 8/30/2008 11:34:35 AM

[Link]

Zoid
Senior Member

Boobies and Anal
2004 Posts
5/04

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:50AM

Aren't you being a bit too optimistic? Piracy is not gas leak, it's the Niagra falls. I seriously doubt that DRM slows anything. And why would average users who download illegal content need to bother with DRM in the first place? Most people don't even know what it is. It takes one hacker-wannabe to rip some paysite and publish its contents on usenet, p2p and numerous blogs and forums. Then anybody can download everything without any DRM. All you need is Google.

I don't think that's the case. Firstly, let's define 'pirate'. We are not talking about a dozen of wizards in the whole world who do this sort of thing, and who have some kind of quota to meet. The problem is that these days anyone can be a pirate. Anyone who's a legit member of a paysite can rip it (or a part of it) and publish it elsewhere. Anyone with a computer and some free software can rip a dvd. I think that more 'established' pirate groups would rather target popular websites/companies, than the easy (and unknown) ones.

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NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 12:31PM

"Piracy is not gas leak, it's the Niagra falls."
Hardly... especially given that most people in the world don't even have a computer, or access to the internet...

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 2:22PM

Not paying you isn't the theft of a physical property. It is not giving you money for your time. I know you refuse to accept that anything else in the world is the same as stealing movies online as that is how you justify your theft to yourself and everyone else around you. However I still am interested how would you feel when you didn't get paid for your time. What would your reaction be when it is your time that has been stolen.

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NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 2:31PM

There are things that I have produced that are available for free over torrent or other 'pirate' methods.
Me, I'm chuffed that someone would think enough of my stuff TO pirate it... and I love the idea that someone I might never have reached in the first place might have access to what I've made.
Not that this issue is about me in the least.

Edited by - NewRomancer on 8/30/2008 2:31:38 PM

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Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:26PM

Is it at least possible to acknowledge that these issues can be discussed in the abstract, in the same manner that it is possible to discuss other current interesting sociological, economic, and legal matters, and to refrain from making irresponsible personal accusations against those who make an argument you don't like, or cannot otherwise counter? I know you know nothing about me; and a re-reading of NewRomancer's comments in this thread reveals nothing that would justify the comment about him.

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cobalt60
Knuckle Dragger

2046 Posts
2/03

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:28PM

If chuffed is to stoked as boo is to yah, then I believe I would feel the same way. Unfortunately, my creative output = epic fail.
No, I don't really talk this way.
Point is, I, too, am a hypocrite. It would chuff me to no end to have my shit jenkemed on the torrentwebz.
[Danny Glover]I'm too old for this shit.[/Danny Glover]

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cobalt60
Knuckle Dragger

2046 Posts
2/03

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:30PM

In a parallel universe, I make as much sense as Harri, but with more dick jokes.

[Link]

Zoid
Senior Member

Boobies and Anal
2004 Posts
5/04

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 8:11PM

There are 1.4 billion interrs worldwide. It's plenty, considering that in some countries -- for example China with its 250mln interrs -- nearly everything is "illegal" when it comes to software, movies, etc. Oh yeah, sure -- it's just a tiny leak that you can fix with a magical DRM system.

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arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 8:50PM

i know it to be the case. but since i can't reveal how i know, you win.

illogical leap here, because that line of thought requires you to assign "popular websites/companies" with DRM usage, and "easy ones" with non-DRM usage.
look around. sample a few of the VOD sites (joining is not required) and see if your idea floats.

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arkdvd
Member

103 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 8:57PM

DRM is not a fix, nor a solution, and hasn't been presented (in this thread) as such. DRM is a moderate deterrent to casual users.
the casual users choose the path of least resistance. why try to defeat CSS when ripping a DVD? why bother messing around with DRM? why spend time downloading content from a file sharing service?
every measure taken deters SOME amount of potential pirates.
isn't that why tube sites are so popular? even to the point of people choosing convenience OVER quality?

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RandomPrecision
Senior Member

Enjoy!
8175 Posts
3/06

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 9:00PM

Frankly, I don't know much about DRM. But if it's anything like most anti theft stuff, it will only make things harder for legitimate consumers. Thieves find ways around the stuff when they have to.
I bought an MP3 player some time ago. The goddamn thing was in one of those blister packs. I don't know if they use those to deter theft or not but they obviously never gave a second thought to the consumer trying to get the fucking thing out of the package.
I was recently looking for a new MP3 player. Every one of them was in the glass display case and the attendant was nowhere to be found.
My car "security system" has prevented ME from driving my own car more times than it's deterred a thief. In fact, the one time when I needed it to work, the thief was a friend who simply stole the keys, opened the door, stole my stereo and put the keys back on the hook.

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Zoid
Senior Member

Boobies and Anal
2004 Posts
5/04

Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:25PM

Why? I don't know of any particular pattern of DRM usage among companies/websites; but if DRM can be cracked, how is it of any concern to a potential pirate? Take your example with houses and alarms: if, as a thief, you have the code to the alarm, doesn't the alarm simply become irrelevant?

Because some people have nothing better to do? As far as I know, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to copy a movie. There are programs that can rip protected DVDs. I believe there is also software that strips DRM from WMVs (or at least there was). In any case, it seems like a matter of pushing a button because there are some "uncasual" users who create such software.

Uhh.. because you don't have to pay for it, and can get away with it. Isn't it kinda obvious?

It also deters some amount of legitimate users. The only problem is that it takes only ONE pirate to neutralize your measures (and spread your content all over the net).

You mean porn tube sites? I have no idea how popular they are or whether they are popular at all.
Edited by - Zoid on 8/30/2008 11:26:53 PM

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licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
1141 Posts
8/03

Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 3:41AM

Flash, this is not a particularly good example. I suspect you may find that failing to pay an employee is not a crime at all. Not any kind of crime. I am not a lawyer, but I guess that at most it would be breach of contract. When was the last time you heard of police arresting someone for breach of contract?
This is a civil issue, and unpaid employees must usually seek redress in civil court. Criminal prosecution does not apply.
You could actually make a good argument that copyright infringement should also be a civil issue, and be treated in exactly the same way as unpaid wages, with redress limited to only the actual financial loss that can be proven. From your tone, however, I would guess that you would oppose such an idea.

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NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 11:52AM

"There are 1.4 billion interrs worldwide"
Have you got a source for that claim?
And even if there are, on a planet of 6+Billion people, 1.4 isn't very many...
"every measure taken deters SOME amount of potential pirates"
What a crock... any schmuck who puts half an effort into it can crack/rip/decode any "DRM" attempt... or find someone else's work that will.... All DRM is doing is making pirates out of legit users... People who don't want to have to buy mp3s for each of their portable players...

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Zoid
Senior Member

Boobies and Anal
2004 Posts
5/04

Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 11:59AM

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm
And obviously, Internet isn't the only way to distribute illegal stuff. In places where they don't have Internet, there are markets and stores that sell bootlegged cds/dvds for a couple of cents.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 3:27PM

I know that's not the greatest example but I'm trying to get people who feel that downloading illegal copies is acceptable to at least answer as to how they would feel if people took their primary source of income away from them. NewRomancer claims to work in some sort of industry where his/her material gets taken that way but from his/her answer I suspect that isn't the primary source of income since I doubt anyone would be happy sitting in a ramshackle apartment not eating because they weren't making any money but people where enjoying the efforts of their work for free.
The reason for my "tone" or anger as I'll put it towards illegal downloading is that not only does it hurt the people involved in making the content but it also hurts every customer who actually purchases the material. And we have hit the point where it appears to have become socially acceptable. When I try to get information on a foreign release to find out if it has an English language track, before purchasing it I get bombarded by people telling me how much of an idiot I am because it's available free at [insert stolen movie site name here] with an English track. When I search for foreign releases of a movie I want that isn't available here I have to sort through pages of rip sites and the like before I get to legit sites selling the item legally. My anger is towards the fact that I am becoming the minority and as a result I'm going to have less entertainment to enjoy because as the money goes down less and less will come out and more and more of the people involved in making it will end up having to do something else. And to top it all off, I'm sure when the entertainment goes away the people who are and support illegal downloading will be one of the first ones to bitch when there isn't anything new out there. And this doesn't just go for the adult movie industry, but to the mainstream movie industry, music industry, etc.
It all comes down to one thing, and one thing only. If you are downloading something for nothing and you don't have the permission of the current copyright owner to do so, you have taken something that doesn't belong to you. And, in various ways, you have stolen from a wide range of people. And I have a giant problem with that. And I'd like for the various industries to all come together and find a way to go after the people who do it. At least if you are stealing something from a store you risk getting caught. I think if the industries banded together, quietly were able to take over some of these domains that allow people to partake in such practice and were able to legally go after them for the cost of the item if they had bought it, for every one downloaded, plus a fine, plus legal fees and then be able to go after the owners of the domain there would be a significant decrease in this activity. I know people are now going to say that everything stolen doesn't equal a sale, but once you have stolen it then I think that the companies have the right to come after you for the MSRP of the item since you chose to steal it. And when I use the term "you" in this I'm referring to anyone who partakes in illegal downloading, not any specific poster here or anywhere.

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Bob

All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03

Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 4:33PM

Absent aggravating factors, copyright infringement is largely treated as a civil matter in the United States.
With respect to available remedies, the primary difference from breach-of-contract claims is that, if the copyrightable material has in fact been duly registered with the U.S. Copyright Office, fairly stiff statutory damages apply in the event that greater "actual economic damages" cannot be demonstrated by the claimant. However, if the claimant hasn't duly registered the copyright, then he/she is only entitled to actual economic damages as determined by the court.
--------------
[typos]
Edited by - bob on 8/31/2008 4:34:50 PM

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 3:37AM

That online stealing has become socially acceptable really pisses me off!
In one thread about Devon new member ycblows posted a link to her latest scene.
Obviously he thinks he does Devon fans a favour and doesn't think about the consequences.
If people steal the scene instead of buying it Devon won't get hired again.
Everybody who is a true fan of a girl buys her scenes to keep her in business.
Edited by - juha on 9/1/2008 3:39:39 AM

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NewRomancer
Deactivated User

under THEIR avatar
738 Posts
7/08

Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 11:50AM

"but from his/her answer I suspect that isn't the primary source of income"
You suspect erroneously...
I have looked around a little and I don't see any good reason to take seriously any claim made by "http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm"

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JimGunn
Member

Where The Teens Are
173 Posts
1/02

Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 12:10PM

Are you a nitwit or are you just amoral? Have you never heard of theft of services or theft by deception or copyright infringement? Just because there is no physical product being whisked away under someone's jacket doesn't mean that no one is hurt when someone enjoys the benefit of getting something for free that they have no right to. In particular the owner and distributor of the movie are hurt because that is one less sale than they should have gotten. And don't you dare say that that consumer wasn't going to make a purchase anyway, because that is for one a lie in most cases and two irrelevant. If they don't want to pay let them do without the benefits of the producer's hard labor and investment. If you get caught stealing a cable tv signal or re-broadcasting an NFL game, there is also no physical product being taken away from a location, but those crimes are commonly punished severely. The audacity of some people to justify their bad actions never ceases to amaze me.
JimGunn.com / Sisterlicious.com

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pornnookie
Member

58 Posts
2/01

Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 2:07PM

When a person state that they download cause they don’t want to see greedy multibillion companies make lots of money when their artists almost get nothing – that is just bullshit.
What they are trying to do is to justify their actions nothing else.
Do a recording artist benefit if people choose to download his/her songs illegally? If all people that liked the songs actually bought it legally – yes, otherwise no.
I remember an artist that was signed to a big label (label doesn’t exist anymore) – he sold pretty well in the US, first album was gold. Label requested more radio material for the next album – they did a song that was played a lot on MTV and radio and the second album sold gold as well. When they were supposed to start working on their third – they heard the same thing again and this time they said fuck it. He continued to create music and decided to sell his albums as downloads – entire album for 3 dollars with no DRM. If it turned out well it should cover the expenses for the recording of the album and generate money for a tour (which is not for free!). A lot of his fans bought it – but an even bigger part downloaded it for free. The very same people that didn’t pay for it were also the ones that was complaining the most that he didn’t tour in their small cities or even better in their backyard.
So – even when artists try to sell music for a good price, try different business models they are still fucked by the majority of people because they want it to be free not willing to pay for it. But they have no good answers either how the artists should be compensated.
Also – bands/artists back in the day early in their careers such as U2 and Springsteen didn’t sell well but that was OK since the labels could have lots of artists that didn’t sell that much – they had time to grove since they got money for artists that sold well. Today when margins are less – labels are gone, sales is down, if you don’t sell – then you are gone. No one cares if you could be something big if you had the opportunity to do a few records.
OK – this was lots of music related – but pretty much the same thing applies to movies and maybe even more too adult movies. Now people don’t have to embarrass themselves buying movies – no one can see them visiting an adult store or they don’t have to explain for their partner why the credit card bill have a huge post from a XXXDVD company. Instead they can find everything they want for free on various sites but at the same time – they are killing the business. Production values might go down – since margins on the movies produced goes down. Companies might need to close down business.
As long as people can download material such as books, music, movies and magazines and not risk anything they will continue to do so.
Some people here say that companies (record labels, movie companies) need to change their distribution model – but seriously do you think that would actually change anything? The very same people that download today will continue to do so and most likely that number would increase. Why share credit card information with the risks associated with that when you can download it and pay nothing? And if we look at our youth today that is used with downloading through bittorrent sites. Will they ever pay for anything online? Today it might be hassle for many since they don’t have a credit card and it is a ‘pain’ to ask the parents – and what they are looking for can be found on that bittorrent site.
Edited by - pornnookie on 9/1/2008 2:18:52 PM
Edited by - pornnookie on 9/1/2008 2:19:47 PM

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licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
1141 Posts
8/03

Posted - Sep 1 2008 : 6:59PM

This is just plain silly. Touring is how musicians make their money, not record sales.
Most bands HAVE to tour to pay back their debts to the record labels, because those companies manipulate the accounts to avoid paying any royalties to the artists.
Don't pat yourself on the back for buying CDs. The musicians will never see one cent of your money. Far better to listen to them on the radio, and spend all your money on tickets to their concerts. If you really must have a CD, buy a used one.

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killbillvol69

All-Star Member

^Lucy Pinder
18634 Posts
4/08

Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 2:25AM

This is an incredibly simplistic breakdown of the music industry. You're assuming several things.
First, you're assuming that the artist tours. Not all artists do. There are some who *gasp* make their money exclusively off of album sales, and cannot tour for any number of reasons.
Second, you're lumping every record company into the same boat. If a band sells their own CD, that they put out themselves, then they in fact see all of the proceeds of it. It's what they'll use to pay back the money required to put the album out in the first place. Unless we're talking about a *big* band, the money they make on tour, playing in bars to 10, 20, maybe as much as 50 people, is basically enough to get them to the next town and pay for their meals along the way.
Third, supposing they get absolutely no airplay, which is actually the vast majority of artists out there, then listening to them on the radio simply isn't an option - unless it's a campus or community station, in which case they don't get paid for it anyway.
Fourth, what if the band has a record company, like so many small companies out there, that simply splits production costs with them straight down the middle, essentially providing the band with twice the money to record and release their album, which will be repaid with the profits of sales - again, split down the middle.
In any of these scenarios, which probably apply to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 98% of all people who refer to themselves as "musicians", how are you helping them by not buying their CD?

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