I have no objection to buying a CD from the band when they have produced it themselves. As you say, they will get all the profit from this. I have bought such CDs from bands at their public performances. Bands that get no airplay, I will mostly never hear of, unless they (or someone else) upload something to the net. Internet airplay is of course, FREE and AVAILABLE TO ANYONE, and any musician can have as much of it as they want, unless they prefer to stay home and whine about "piracy" instead. My comment about the relationship between musicians and record companies is largely based on material written by musicians themselves. If you know better I must take your word for it. In spite of that, I will buy only used CDs, never new, from any label associated with the RIAA. It is my opinion that their recent activities are utterly contemptible, and I refuse to contribute money to them in any way whatever.
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 12:00PM
" I will buy only used CDs, never new, from any label associated with the RIAA." Hear fn hear! "Some people here say that companies (record labels, movie companies) need to change their distribution model – but seriously do you think that would actually change anything?" Changing the distribution model isn't about stopping 'piracy'. It's about improving the distribution method so that companies make more $$ off their product and 'get with the times'... It also has a lot to do with improving ones PR (check the number if people who are disgruntled with porn... It's content and/or the people producing it or delivering it.. they've been vocal in this thread and in the "Any things that "bug" you in porn?" thread) As I stated a few pages back, if in fact there has been ANY decline in porn sales I'd be willing to bet those factors are way more responsible than bit-torrent...) There's NOTHING anyone can do to ever stop 'piracy'. It is a merger of the nature of digital entertainment media, and the internet which is an uncontrolled (Indeed, uncontrollable) method of disseminating digital information. How do you think you could ever possibly stop it without destroying the nature of the internet? There's nothing you can put on the product (All copy protection can and will be cracked) There's no real way to halt the flow of information across the internet (When necessary, the 'pirates' with encrypt their data so that it cannot be read....) Those who wish to use the net to deliver their product should be HALF as capable as those who they call 'thieves'. So all these cries of immorality fall on deaf ears because they offer no solutions. If your whole argument is that you don't do it, and so I shouldn't either, you have no argument. Morals are NOT 'universal' and so are NOT any kind of basis for any solution to this sort of issue.
#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 4:57PM
Gee, Jim, thanks for taking to heart my suggestion that we at least avoid making irresponsible personal accusations in this discussion.I was addressing the situation of an individual who indicated that he has a practice and custom of not buying any porn at retail. I am, for the sake of the discussion, taking him at his word. Your statement "don't you dare say that that consumer wasn't going to make a purchase anyway, because that is for one a lie in most cases" is rank speculation on your part. Your assertion that the point is "irrelevant" makes no sense; how is it irrelevant to wonder how an avowed non-participant in the retail market can somehow represent "one less sale than they should have gotten"?Like suggesting it's OK to download Stern show binaries because you've bought a lot of Snapple over the years?
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 5:20PM
I understand that there will always be low life thieves, but that is not what you said in the first place. If someone is watching a porno dvd while driving it is likely they will die anyhow. You are saying condone the rip offs because it isn't that many, I can't condone anybody stealing anyones product, yes I know it will continue, but it doesn't mean it is right or ok because only 10% are doing it. Right is right and wrong is wrong, it isn't kinda wrong. I am concentrating on making some high quality porn under the Cezar Capone label, I spend 99% of my time selling it and making sure it is exceptional, I spent 1% of my time chasing thieves.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 5:30PM
filesharing cpoywritten material without the permission of the owner is exactly the same as the theft of physical property without the packaging. You took the content, which is what people pay to see. I knew you would come up with some crazy justification that suits your needs, and you did.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 5:37PM
+1 go jim gunn!
[Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 9:00PM
My grandfather was a blacksmith. In the 1920's & 1930's he was able to make a living. By the 1940's he had become a night watchman. I can not blame someone in the porn business ululating the status of the industry. Lively hoods are at stake. Income loss is not painless. But, can someone be a thief if they take something of no value? Even while making an ethical claim against stealing something of no value, is it really worth getting hot and bothered about? Porn, or at least DVD sales, is in the toilet because, what seems like a couple of million people, went into the business of making it, all at once. I for one own more porn then I will ever be able enjoy in two more life times. I don't steal it and I sure don't buy more of it --- and I do not think that I am alone.
This might be a valid point except for one thing. The way most P2P clients work is that when a person is downloading something, they are also sharing that file (or pieces of it) with many other peers (who, in turn, are sharing it with many others). Not only that but with some clients, once a file has been downloaded, it is left in a folder that is made available for sharing over the network. So one person can distribute many, many copies of that file. So unless the person is downloading from some source that doesn't require them to share in order to participate, there is no way for them to know they aren't distributing that file to people who might have otherwise bought it. So it does get out of hand. Most P2P clients work this way and sharing cannot be disabled on some of them. Which would defeat the purpose of the network anyway. If nobody shared, nothing would be available. Millions of people are sharing millions of files and that has to be costing the copyright holders a lot in lost sales.
[Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Sep 2 2008 : 11:38PM
and you know that how? And if they are downloading or sharing these files, are they really watching them?
^I'll admit to not being an expert on this stuff, but why would you go through the trouble of downloading something in order to not watch it?
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 3:10AM
"Right is right and wrong is wrong" Hardly any kind of universal constant, either one. "filesharing cpoywritten material without the permission of the owner is exactly the same as the theft of physical property" Actually, it's nothing like the theft of physical property... Especially given that copyright laws all over the world are relaxing more and more as the global network makes the dissemination of digital media easier and easier... It's the direction that the wind is blowing. To deny it, or try to fight it is a waste of time (Not that you're not free to do what you will with your free time) So, what's your answer? Keeping in mind that filesharing is NEVER going to stop, and that there's no such thing as internet security.... What do you see the model of the future being, Hollywood Woody? "Porn, or at least DVD sales, is in the toilet because, what seems like a couple of million people, went into the business of making it, all at once." Another factor that's changing the market... any schmuck with a 500 buck camera, a hooker and a blue pill can shoot porn and sell it. Given the state of the "Does Anything Bug You In Porn" thread, it seems like maybe that's what's happening...
"Might have purchased" is not what you are trying to prove. The claims in this thread are more along the lines of "ALWAYS would have purchased it EVERY TIME without exception, even if he is fifteen years old and can't legally purchase it anyway, and even if he has absolutely no money whatever". That is the only possible meaning when somebody says "every download is a lost sale." Clearly such an assertion is utterly stupid, there must be many downloads that cannot possibly be lost sales. In fact the statement "every download is a lost sale" is guaranteed to be false. The only possible outcome of a person making such a statement is that they will appear to be foolish or dishonest or both.It isn't in any way self evident. In fact it is not evident at all. There is evidence against it in this very thread if you care to look.
It just seems like common sense.Why else would they want them?
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 10:51AM
" It just seems like common sense." In my experience there's no such thing.
[Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 12:10PM
I think some of this is just an expression of rather manic behavior. At my porn watching peak I probably watch on average a scene or 2 a day. I know that there are much heavier porn viewers than I ever was on this board alone, but there is only so much time available in a day. I think of it as an itch that can't be scratched.
[Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Downloaders can afford to be much much less discriminating than buyers. Download anything that seems slightly vaguely interesting, and decide its fate later. Some files are keepers, some deleted on 2nd thought, some deleted after viewing a few seconds (to determine what the heck it is), some forgotten about until time to free up HD space, at which time it gets deleted. It depends.
It's quite evident to anyone who isn't looking for an excuse to justify their conduct or playing word games for the sake of argument. Doesn't matter if it's an actual lost sale, a potential lost sale, a percentage of lost sales, a theoretical lost sale or if instead you want to look at it as one cheap-ass enjoying the benefit of something that he surreptitiously got for nothing that others had to pay for. It's obvious that someone or multiple someones are losing out to a greater or lesser degree, including but not limited to the director, studio, models, crew, distributors, people that service the industry, and others. If you can't wrap your mind around that simple fact than you aren't even being serious with this discussion. And for all you guys saying morality isn't universal and all kinds of other obtuse rationalizations, I would suggest that you aren't fooling anyone with that rhetoric, not even yourselves. Most of you are a bunch of middle class, non-criminal lifestyle, non-Anarchist dudes who know quite well what is commonly right and wrong in your daily lives, all transparent nonsense arguments on a forum like this notwithstanding. In the long run it's in everyones interest that a reasonably profitable business exists for creative expression, since it encourages all kinds of diversity, so that even fans of really specific niches like say, asian shemales with females, can find new material to entertain themselves. JimGunn.com / Sisterlicious.com
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 2:23PM
I have to address the dvd business is in the toilet part. Part of the problem is all the free porn on the websites. Part of the problem is the downloading of copywritten material. Another big problem is we aren't getting the new 18 year olds we used to get, because it is so widely availble for free, and the 35 to 45 year old crowd is now 45 to 55, and take it from me, they don't jerk off like the old days as much. But in the face of all of that, the market is not dead for quality product. I sold 5000 plus units of Deviant out the door and get re orders daily, because it is really well done, same thing with My Neighbors Sex Tapes 3, it went out the door at 2000 units and is getting re-ordered. Buyers are much more sophisticated, that is why we have to be in tune with and listen to what you guys want. Everyone was asking for girls fucking average guys, so we made Bangin Average Joe, real guys just like you, bangin hot porno chicks. It should do well. I'm not sure what you mean by stealing something that has no value, if someone spent money to produce a dvd, and people want to see it, it has value.
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 2:33PM
A lot of things are 'part of the problem', HW, no doubt at all... But there's no real evidence that shows torrents and free sites are even the biggest problems... "we aren't getting the new 18 year olds we used to get" So your target demographic has changed... That entails you might want to change with it because you have no control over changing them. "the market is not dead for quality product" Hear hear! I suspect if one could track such a thing, one would discover that a quality product would take the 'Pirate Factor' and shrug it off like water off a ducks back... all the way to the bank.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 2:36PM
I wish I had the answer, I don't. I know that I will continue to make quality movies and try to sell them the best I can. I will spend more time on my websites, ala reality kings, bang bros etc. with an attempt to make better product. It is admittedly hard to stop a hurricane with a table fan. Anyone can make porn yes, but anybody can fix their car too, it is a matter of doing it right, with the right tools.
[Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 2:45PM
Hollywood; I think that you have kind of made my point. You are moving product if it is good and is what the market wants. All I am saying is that of all the woes that are stressing the industry, I do not believe that downloading or file sharing is the major one. Just to be clear I am not arguing whether or no stealing is moral or legal.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 2:47PM
I think it is multi faceted for sure. It even goes deeper, the price of gas, shitty economy, thank you Geo. Bush, and people who used to spend are now getting their beer, gas and smokes, going home and watching what they already have. I am surely trying to roll with the punches and stay one step ahead, the answer for me is to make the best product out there, I spend very, very little time chasing, if any at all, the online downloaders. It is just aggravating that someone is stealing from you.
I disagree with you. And this goes for both the mainstream and the adult industry. When I search for a hard to find DVD, one not carried by stores in this price search or in the IMDB price search, usually out of my first 25 results 99% of them are for filesharing/torrent/stolen material sites. I usually don't get useful information on the actual DVD for this title until after the first 25 results, some even further. How many potential buyers do this and feel that it just isn't available and result to stealing it? If you went to the mall and on the way in there were 25 "stores" giving away hot goods before you got to the stores in the mall selling legit goods, how many customers do you lose on the trek in?
It doesn't matter how many percent of lost sales are attributable to torrents. While oversaturation or lack of quality are part of the free market torrents aren't. Stealing online unhinges the connection of supply and demand. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.It isn't just a simple change in target demographics. It's a matter of obsolescence. An 18 year old who steals online will never become a 28 year old who pays for porn. Edited by - juha on 9/3/2008 4:01:04 PM
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 4:05PM
"It is just aggravating that someone is stealing from you." To end aggravation then, put it out of your mind and concentrate on the things that are rewarding! :-) (Again, all the way to the bank!!) "usually out of my first 25 results 99% of them are for filesharing/torrent/stolen material sites" So narrow your search Flash... use "-torrent" or similar and similar strings to get you through the information you don't want and to the information you do want. Don't forget Half.com for mainstream DVDs too!
If it is truly unavailable and out of print, is it ever OK to grab it from whatever source has it? Or do you go without, in the name of morality and legality? Do we "owe" the vintage/classic copyright holders any consideration/loyalty when they withhold product from the market? Also, what search engine are you using? I can never get more than 1 or 2 relevant results in the best case whenever I attempt "hard to find" searches. Then the quality of results goes astray and offtarget immediately.
I still haven't seen anyone address the fact that those sites that host torrent links, and those tube sites that put up content they don't own are making MAJOR BANK by selling ad space. Of course they all hide overseas so that it's next to impossible to get the lawyers after them. Blackzilla and Reality Kings are marketable names...that traffic should be going to the copyright owners. That traffic should be going to our legal affiliates, which send us subscribers, and we pay them for that...and the rest of the money goes back into continuing to produce quality jack off material. But instead it's going to fuckfaces like Adult Friend Finder and Fling.com...who are doing nothing to make quality productions. And the freeloaders can rationalize your actions to yourself all day. But you sound like the guy in Office Space explaining how stealing fractions of a cent wasn't stealing. You're taking something for free that you should legally have to pay for. That's stealing or copyright infringing or whatever fucking legal mumbo jumbo you want to trot out. Was it manslaughter or was it murder...either way you fucking kill someone...and there's penalties for both because either way...IT'S WRONG. And I can speak from experience, I used to warez TONS of shit via FTPs and Fservs on IRC. I ran a fucking mp3 channel that distributed RNS rips of hip hop albums. I've sold bootleg episode sets on Yahoo. And every time I was doing it because I was a cheapskate that didn't (or couldn't) want to pay for the stuff. I knew all along what I was doing was illegal, and at the least..unethical. Will there always be people like that? Of course. I don't think any studio realistically think you can just wipe out all piracy. But to read some of the ridiculous rationalizations by you guys...who are supposed to be "real fans" is disturbing. And if you don't think piracy and free content on the web is a big problem. Why don't you ask Marc Bell (who owns Penthouse, who owns Adult Friend Finder) how he's doing? Why don't you check the Alexa rank on YouPorn, RedTube, Rapidshare, AdultFriendFinder, etc? Why don't you read some of the torrent forums where the overwhelming consensus is that "paying anything for porn is stupid"?
I've been keeping an eye on this thread for that very reason but I don't believe he did, Woody. half.com is a legit discount book store/video store.
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 7:07PM
"+1 you are correct on all points" Except that your assertions are baseless, unsupported.... so bang goes that +1 I guess. "An 18 year old who steals online will never become a 28 year old who pays for porn." According to what evidence please? "Just fyi, it is against the rules of this site to promote the acquisition of free goods." I haven't given anything away, nor have I enabled or even encouraged anyone to take things for free. My point is people do fileshare, and there's NOTHING you or anyone else will ever be able to do to stop it. So yes, you may as well ignore it if it causes you so much consternation, hadn't you? Otherwise you're only causing yourself grief, and you're way too busy to muck around with that! After all it's not going to go away no matter what you do, so why sweat it?
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Sep 3 2008 : 7:25PM
again, no sweat on my part. I am focused on making great product that I hope people will buy and enjoy. It's the best I can do. The only other thing i do is say the serenity prayer over and over. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference".
I think the lifelong freeloader/downloader will have a revelation once he sets foot in a well-stocked porn shop. There's nothing like instant access, instant gratification, browsing thousands of dvd boxcovers, and walking out the door with a porn stash in hand. Even the simple act of browsing porn online is a chore, no matter how well-designed the website.
This is one area where copyright law could be reformed to help it recover its credibility. Copyright should lapse irrevocably on any book, song, movie or computer program that has been out of publication for five years or more. While I am on computer programs, which are my own source of income, let me also state that copyright should lapse immediately and irrevocably on any edition of a program which the copyright holder is no longer willing to support. Copyright law should also require the copyright holder to release full source code to all licensed users immediately upon termination of support.
I would define a work as being "in publication" if it is available, in a commonly used format, to be purchased in unlimited quantities from the publisher by any retailer in the country where the copyright applies. There are probably some finicky details (lead times, for example, or reasonable pricing limits) that you would need to add to that definition to make it legally watertight. For example, when I go to a bookshop and try to buy a book, but the retailer cannot order it because it is "out of print", I define that book as being "not in publication". If the copyright holder abandons it in that condition for five years or more, he should forfeit all future rights to the work, since he is not meeting the social obligations for which copyright law was created.I actually disapprove of all criminal penalties for copyright issues, and would prefer them to be limited to civil remedies. However, if you want to insist on criminal sanctions or statutory damages, then penalties similar to those imposed under the DMCA for illegal copiers would also be adequate for software copyright holders. For example, people copying music have recently been charged 9000 times the retail value of the items copied in statutory damages. In the case of a software package that retailed for $1000, that would impose a penalty on the supplier of nine million dollars for each copy they sold and abandoned. I would define the new offence as "software abandonment". In the case where the offender was a company, the company directors and executives would be subject to the criminal penalties, and would be jointly and severally liable with the company itself for the statutory damages. As I said, that is not my preferred position. I would rather the law implicitly added a clause to all software licenses to protect the purchaser in the case of abandonment. This would allow the purchaser to obtain a court order for delivery of the source code of the abandoned software. If the copyright holder then refused to deliver, that would be contempt of court, and the usual penalties would apply.
It's very discouraging to see porn fans trying to rationalize this. I really do understand the temptation. I mean, here you have all this free stuff out there floating around and all you have to do is reach out and grab it. But isn't that just it? Does anyone really believe this isn't hurting sales? It isn't just a little bit either. Any title you can imagine is out there for the taking. If it just came out 3 days ago, it's probably available somewhere. The only people who are going to pay for porn now are people who believe in supporting the people who make it. Anyone who doesn't care is just going to take whatever they want and the studios will never see a dime from them. I don't see how anyone who wants quality porn to stick around can see this as anything but very bad for the industry. You can sit back and pretend it isn't hurting anyone but someday, you'll see that you're wrong. But you probably won't really know it until you can't find any decent porn anymore. There may be other factors that are contributing to poor quality and declining profits but this is not helping.
[Link]
NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Sep 4 2008 : 11:00AM
"The only other thing i do is say the serenity prayer" It's your breath... waste it how ever you chose "The only people who are going to pay for porn now are people who believe in supporting the people who make it. Anyone who doesn't care is just going to take whatever they want and the studios will never see a dime from them." That isn't even remotely a new attitude! Anyone who has ever wanted a copy of anything for free could get it... It's not like the internet invented bootlegging. "Copyright should lapse irrevocably on any book, song, movie or computer program that has been out of publication for five years or more." Hear hear! "copyright should lapse immediately and irrevocably on any edition of a program which the copyright holder is no longer willing to support. Copyright law should also require the copyright holder to release full source code to all licensed users immediately upon termination of support." Hear hear!
If by rationalize you mean excuse, then I think only 1 or 2 people in this thread have done that. Most of us are discussing how the industry could deal with it. The first step in dealing with an issue is putting aside our emotional response and looking for cold hard facts. In the interest of achieving that, I have been asking people to stop the name calling and exaggerations and instead look for evidence.The only way to find out would be to add up all the separate sales for DVD, VOD and web site memberships for this year, and compare that number with the equivalent number from last year. I really don't know how you could get all those figures. Even if you could, I'm not sure what it would prove. The US financial system just collapsed. Maybe the pie has gotten smaller. Perhaps there was a total of fifteen billion available for the population to spend on porn last year, but only ten billion this year, because people are preoccupied with other problems like mortgage foreclosures, lost jobs and disappearing share portfolios. Perhaps there are more people making porn this year than last year. Every day I seem to hear about new paysites. There must be thousands of them, and not all in the USA. Maybe that shrunken ten billion is being shared between twice as many studios as last year. I could imagine all of these things making life very difficult for someone in the business. It is quite possible that these effects are the main cause of the pain, with unlicensed copying being a much smaller effect.I still think that people will pay something for convenience. If you can rent a DVD for $4 when you go past the store on your way home from work, there is no way you would go to the trouble of searching for it online, waiting for it to download and burning it to a DVD. Also, if you can buy it online easily and conveniently, many people will do so, just like iTunes.It has been shown with books, that having the product available free online actually increases the sales of the same product in brick and mortar stores. While movies are clearly not the same as books, I see no immediate reason why this would not be happening with movies too. Porn only gets a small share of the entertainment dollar now. Perhaps unlicensed copying will increase its market penetration, and make the whole pie larger. The eventual upside I see of all this is that porn could actually become "mainstream". The first "internet generation" will become adults soon. These are people who are accustomed to the concept of having access to erotic material whenever they want to, and don't feel frightened by it. Perhaps in ten years they will all be watching porn at dinner parties, and nine out of ten homes will have a porn DVD library. If so, the industry will see more profit than it has ever dreamed of.
[Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Sep 4 2008 : 1:07PM
The issue of copyrights has been an ongoing problem for at least over a century. Charles Dickens was plagued by it here in America back in the day. Publications were always reprinting his stories without authorization (now the roots of that word are probably very interesting) or payment. As municipalities try to deal with "open government" mandates here in New Jersey, a very interesting wrinkle has emerged. There are companies who have been in the business of codifying town laws and publishing them, who are now trying to prevent these legal documents from being put up on the WEB, claiming that these documents are copyrighted material.
