Well some would rather complain about file sharing, which as you noted they didn't have a problem with before the recession, which was the actual cause of the downturn in their sales, than change their business model to give the consumers the content they want.Agreed. And as I've stated before, if someone was giving away a product for free, many people would accept it who weren't going to purchase it in the first place. Which is obvious, but doesn't serve to buttress their argument so it's ignored.
That was a very amusing bit of projection right there. If you don't want it to get personal perhaps you (and Flash and juha, to name a few other notable posters) should refrain from asserting that everybody who disagrees with your take on the filesharing issue is a bad - or at the very least deeply misguided - person.
On that note, I've long been wondering how much money the various flat-fee DVD movie sites (Videosz, Videobox, etc.) are making. I wouldn't be surprised if the recession in DVD sales strongly correlates with the rise of these sites where people can get their rocks off cheaply to a huge (often 5000+ discs) back catalog of 5 to 10 years worth of DVDs. Sure, they're often from lower-quality studios - you won't find EA or ZT material on there - but the sheer volume offered by these sites seems to be a strong selling point to me. Edited by - shalalin on 4/30/2010 10:50:25 AM
I fail to see how it could NOT be considered anything but a loss to have your product available for free. If given a choice of getting the same thing for free or for a fee, what choice do you think the majority of the people will make? I think most will know that you should pay for the products that you like and want, but if the product is free and available many will make excuses as to why they "deserve" to have it. This topic and thread is full of rationalizations, but it really does seem ludicrous that there are people that actually believe that porn available for free will not hurt the porn industry. It does hurt those that produce porn and everyone involved in porn. For those that think it isn't THAT bad, have some empathy and a shred of decency and realize that if this were happening to something that YOU made, would it really not upset you? I just see no way that there is any kind of a benefit to the porn industry of having so much of their material for free. I do not see how anyone can know that companies are making a product that they desire to sell - deserve to sell too, they made it, they should be the ones to profit off it, isn't that just common sense and the way it should be? - only to have that product given away for free... it is just wrong, selfish, and illegal to take something that does not belong to you, and for the ones putting up the free porn, they are profiting off the works that others did which is just wrong on every level and disgusting, and it is no wonder that they are so despised and hated by the porn industry and some porn fans. Few human traits are worse than a person taking credit/profit for something they did not do.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 30 2010 : 11:58AM
And I would be willing to bet that any supposed downturn in porn sales is just as likely due to the glut of crappy product.
Zaer wrote: And as I've stated before, if someone was giving away a product for free, many people would accept it who weren't going to purchase it in the first place. Which is obvious, but doesn't serve to buttress their argument so it's ignored. That argument works both ways, which is also obvious, and defeats the "argument" because it does not prove a thing. It is true. Some people take the free porn on the basis that they never had any intention of buying it. Some take the free porn that they had intended to buy simply because it was available for free. There is nothing to prove what the higher percentage is - are there more people taking stuff they never intended on buying, or are there more people taking stuff that they would have bought? I am sure that those in the porn industry or anyone with common sense would believe that nobody takes anything that they have no desire for (even if it be free, the term "crap" comes to mind; who goes out of their way to get crap they do not want - some do, and I would think they are foolish for doing so), and will always consider any material that is taken is a loss in sales regardless of the motivation of those that take.
It's the recession and file sharing which are likely over 95% repsonsible for this porn downturn. It's easy to bash the industry, but it's problems, the oversaturation of the market and a good portion of the market being junk, were there when the industry was booming in the early part of last decade. I'll put the best of todays porn head to toe against the best from the 80's and 90's. There are more great porn girls than ever, and for the studios that do try to make a quality product the camera work and lighting and direction are as good or better than ever before. HD porn is coming into it's own. Even if you believe there's been a depreciation of quality, which I do not, the demand for sex on video would not decline because of that. That has always been the nature of the business. Now, for the good stuff and the crap, more and more people are gettting it for free. I would hope it's primarily because of the recession, this downturn, but I fear more and more than the industry has changed for ever due this freeness. That ultimately could be what leads to a true decline in quality.
People keep trying to compare porns situation to the music industry. But you are all missing the point. Music is doing fine, it's the record companies that are hurting. If you want to compare the two formats, you need to compare the people that produce porn to the record companies. And when you do that, you will see that in both cases, the fat cats are dying off while the product still exists. There will always be music, but the way it is being developed, produced, and distributed has changed, and will continue to change. I don't see why we should expect anything different with porn. And my personal opinion of why this is a good thing? I think the richest people in porn should be the actors. I believe that the changes that have come and are to come will work to the actors benefit. And when that happens, when the actors get more control of what they do, the viewers will get better porn. In the music industry, singers wouldn't give a rats ass if all their music was free. They make their money on concerts. That is why so many artists leak their music now, or make it available for free in some way. What the actors need to do is find out what their "concert" is, and own it.
^^ I mostly agree with all of that. Especially the performers part. I buy porn more based on who is in it than who made it. But I do not think that porn really has the concert type thing to fall back on. There is feature dancing, and going on tour to attend events and for promotion but those things will only bring about a fraction of cash that a concert tour can bring. The "fat cats" are a necessary evil in porn because they are the ones that provide the funding. Porn stars can create their own sites, and in large part film their own content, but it still takes much money. Porn is also not nearly as mainstream as music is - musicians can make bank with endorsement deals, porn stars are without that option. I'm sort of interested to see if porn will ever be mainstream... it seems to be headed in that direction, and if it reaches a bigger audience, one that HAS to be paying for the product, then porn will continue to grow and thrive. But I still cannot get over how ridiculous it is that so much free porn is available. Porn is a luxury item, and should be either bought and paid for or gone without it. Stealing is not ok, even if it is easy... if anyone cannot understand that, I sure as hell hope they get caught and be held responsible, and used to be made an example of with huge fines. I feel no sympathy for them at all, and while I may not be a big fan of the porn industry in general, and may believe to at least some extent that performers are being somewhat used and discarded like life stock by some of the porn companies, the industry is right to be upset about all the free crap so many people are taking from them.
I wasn't suggesting the actors actually do concerts, I just mean that they need to find their money maker and be the ones that control it. They need to get involved with the change, be part of it so they can control part of it. If I were a porn producer, I would have to take a look at where I want this to go, not how to keep it the same, because that ain't gonna happen. If they want to try to hold on to the old, they need to work together to fight what they can, but it's a losing battle. Mostly because porn fits into society differently than, for example, music and software. But again, the porn industry is partly responsible for that too. Bottom line, the porn industry isn't dying, it's just changing hands. If I were an actor in the industry, I would be looking hard at what I had to do to come out on top of the change instead of letting the change happen to me.
Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08
Posted - Apr 30 2010 : 9:38PM
I see your point, but they actually started that complaint when the only trailers to be viewed were on their VHS tapes. I have never got off on a trailer in 30 years. The only thing a trailer can do for me is make me spend money. The trailers have been cut down in time, cut down in resolution, shown with distorting affects, or so chopped up that I have to rewatch, slo-mo or freeze frame just to get the key info that might make me want to drop some cash. Most of the time I do not know which lady I am looking at in a trailer. How can they complain about their own free advertising? However, it does not really matter if the indusrty is full of hot air. It does not matter if the lavish homes or the high end cars used for shoots belong to porn moguls. It does not matter if the porn industry is loosing money or making record profits. Pirated porn is wrong, it unfairly deprives all of the parties involved in the product of deserved revenue, and it negatively effects me, the consumer.
Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08
Posted - Apr 30 2010 : 9:55PM
If you think the product is so crappy, then why use so much of your resources to pirate the porn, watch the porn, and defend online your gross anti-social behavior. If the porn is so crappy you could at least shut the fuck up, or better yet let the industry have extra money to improve the product by quitting illegal file sharing.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - Apr 30 2010 : 10:37PM
My file sharing hasn't cost any pornographer a single penny I have either downloaded and deleted things I was never going to buy anyway... Or I have downloaded things that I then went on to buy.... Who have I deprived of any money?
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Apr 30 2010 : 10:58PM
Porn will never die. People will always find a way to get their fix. As a consumer willing to put out ideas for a potential solution, allow me to throw this idea out there. Recently there was a production put out by the EVIL EMPIRE called "Bet You Ass 6" by Jonni Darkko, it contained an anal scene with Lana Croft and Mark Ashley. Mark's cock is a supreme tool of penetration and Lana's asshole took it hard and balls deep. What I did not like about the scene is the fact that while she was wearing the hottest little lace frilly socks, she never removed her shoes during the scene. Had she removed her shoes to mount Mark in a reverse cowgirl position, thus allowing me to see her sexy feet during the anal bull ride, I would have easily spent $500.00 to see that. Not some isolated shot of the penetration, but a well captured, well lit, non tilted, depiction of her from head to toes, lasting at least 2-3 minutes. If there was a way to commission this type of performance, I'd be the first in line with my means of payment. When the industry figures out a way to create real hardcore fetish combination shit like this and finally decides to film it well, I will be happy to support it. As of now, I feel it should die. Productions such as Sean Michaels "Hose Hoes" are released, immediately available for free download, and I wouldn't even bother. I am laughing at his mockery then, and especially now.
You stole versus renting the porn initially. Making every download a loss to a video store, online rental shop or VOD store. Congrats, you have just proven that illegally downloading files has a negative financial impact on the companies that produce it.
I don't think the last 2 replies are necessarily true. If people have to pay to preview porn, or buy it blindly and get burned by bad porn, they are less likely to continue to buy porn. I'm not saying that everyone that previews porn illegally buys porn, but those that do buy it after illegal downloads are not hurting anyone.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 1 2010 : 10:23AM
The concept of deserve is subjective and can be interpreted in a number of ways. And it actually does matter if the industry's figures about filesharing are hot air. Because if they are then their hyperbolic rhetoric about it only obfuscates the truth, namely that the recession was the fundamental reason for their profits going down and filesharing had only a slight impact on their sales. And it also matters if they're making record profits because then there's no logical reason for them to complain about filesharing.By that logic, buying the content deprives rental companies of revenue. So perhaps one should buy and rent the content just to make sure the producers get paid twice. Edited by - Zaer on 5/1/2010 10:23:53 AM
[By that logic, buying the content deprives rental companies of revenue. So perhaps one should buy and rent the content just to make sure the producers get paid twice. Edited by - Zaer on 5/1/2010 10:23:53 AM
Actually, shitty porn is a logical reason for people to get it for free. It's called sampling. Years ago, you could pretty much go buy a new car, any new car, and you knew what your were getting. Now, some dealers/manufacturers allow you to test drive them for long periods. They have to do this because of the glut of cars, the number of crappy cars. Why should people buy porn blindly? Years ago when there were fewer titles, you got what there was. Now, there is so much, if you buy it blindly, you are just as likely to get crap as something you like. Something else to consider. There is so much porn, it's getting harder and harder for me to find something new, or that I like. That makes every purchase a crap shoot if buying blindly.
Gravity as Curved Space: Bootymeister's Theory of General Relativity 1589 Posts 11/08
Posted - May 1 2010 : 12:08PM
^ Total BS. Sampling is not using the product as though you paid for it. Thus, eliminating the need to rent or buy. Shopping for one's desired porn is done by trailers, rentals, stills, reviews, referrals, blogs and forums, and the provided DVD info. After a while, quite often, one has enough experience to make a purchase just based on the DVD cover.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 1 2010 : 12:39PM
The things I want aren't for rent in stores around here... and I'm NOT using shoddy security on VOD sites.... So again, my habits haven't cost anyone anything cause they weren't going to get my money anyway.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 1 2010 : 12:40PM
I learned a long time ago, what you see on the back of the box, is by no means what you get. I've said it before and I will say it again, screens on torrent sites help level the playing field against the porn industries "conspiracy of ineptitude".
That's your choice, but still depriving money from the companies, so it is theft and loss on behalf of the company. If I think the Ford dealership is shoddy here, I can't just take cars from other people to test drive them and then buy one from a far away Ford dealership when I like how one drives.
It does, but you have legally purchased it so that is immaterial, just like buying used doesn't help companies that much, however again you have legally purchased. Legally renting or purchasing is different from stealing illegally downloaded material. If you illegally download it you have deprived everyone of the money.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 1 2010 : 2:13PM
You can borrow a Ford from anyone who will loan you one, to do your test drive... and then you are welcome to buy your Ford from any dealership you chose.
Lets all stop pretending that there is absolutely any circumstance, reason, or rationalization around the simple fact that when you download or share copyrighted material without the owner's consent, you are breaking the law. And it is just stupid and naive to believe that doing this sort of illegal activity would not have any negative effect on the industry that is being robbed. When porn companies spend money to prevent illegal downloads, that cost can be traced back directly to everyone that illegally downloaded materials. So anyone that says "I didn't cost the industry a penny" is just being foolish.
I'm really flattered that you're thinking of buyint my dvd .... but just a little food for thought ... you stated porn tends to "suck ass" now. Did you ever stop to think that part of the reason it may or that it does is because most companies can't afford to shoot a regular scene anymore let along a crazy wild gang bang / orgy scene because it's too costly. That many companies have gone out of business or stopped shooting for the time being because they don't have the money. Girls are gettin paid half of what they were in many cases , so they're pissed about shooting the scene. How good is that scene going to turn out ? You may say that you could careless if you steal porn or if you're busted for it .... but you may care when there is no more porn . The free tubes are killing the industry. May not happen overnight, but you may wake up one day not having anything to watch if things continue the way they are ! That being said .... I hope you still buy my dp video ! lol ... Tia
Any program owner will tell you that sales have dropped dramatically. DVD Stores sales aren't hardly half of what they were. LA prod companies have shut down left and right. This years AVN award show was practically a ghost town when it came to Companies and Hired talent , especially when compared to recent years. Knowones going to throw their sales stats up on a furum. However, take from someone that owns a couple sites, sales HAVE dropped !
Again, how many players are there in the market today compared to a few years ago. With the internet's growth, you have more girls available, more people making porn, more sites providing it, etc. I don't know that you have the growth in people willing to pay for it to match that. And quite frankly, I think that's a good thing. At some point, the desire will match the product, and those willing to pay will get the best product out there. When I think back to the days when Ginger and Amber where on top, or bottom , you didn't have this issue. The way the industry is run today is their biggest problem. It reminds me of Kodak. Waited way to long to get into digital, they missed the boat. Porn keeps trying to follow the same business model, they are missing the boat.
^^ The internet seems to be both a gift and a curse to porn. The gift is exposure to a larger audience. The curse is that just about every material being shot is available for free. It is hard to sell anything that can be gotten for free, so how exactly are companies supposed to make a profit if their merchandise is constantly being made available for free? What business module is supposed to work in this type of environment?
So then you are saying the producer has willingly loaned your their movies?
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 2 2010 : 2:35AM
[/quote] Tia Ling wrote I'm really flattered that you're thinking of buyint my dvd .... but just a little food for thought ... you stated porn tends to "suck ass" now. Did you ever stop to think that part of the reason it may or that it does is because most companies can't afford to shoot a regular scene anymore let along a crazy wild gang bang / orgy scene because it's too costly. That many companies have gone out of business or stopped shooting for the time being because they don't have the money. Girls are gettin paid half of what they were in many cases , so they're pissed about shooting the scene. How good is that scene going to turn out ? You may say that you could careless if you steal porn or if you're busted for it .... but you may care when there is no more porn . The free tubes are killing the industry. May not happen overnight, but you may wake up one day not having anything to watch if things continue the way they are ! That being said .... I hope you still buy my dp video ! lol ... Tia [/quote] Thank You Tia Ling for such a sincere and enlightening response. Please be assured that when I say that the majority of porn tends to "suck ass", it is not a reflection of my opinion on female talent such as yourself. This comment is directed at the producers who peddle titles that are incestuous, derogatory, and outright inflammatory. The scenes which are geared toward competent male performers with beautiful hardcore anal performers such as yourself, are exactly what I wish to support by any means necessary. I wish in my heart of hearts that you were getting most of the money, and continuing the cycle of supply and demand which is sorely lacking in these strange days. As a man of my word, I will definitely be ordering the highest quality videos possible through these channels, as they meet my desires. Your RCA scene with lots of visible foot shots was definitely up to my standards, and it only took one good man with one righteous tool to get it done. You have a very satisfied customer and I look forward to doing my part. Edited by - AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy on 5/2/2010 2:37:51 AM Edited by - AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy on 5/2/2010 2:39:13 AM
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 2 2010 : 10:12AM
All that is, is an unsupported anecdote... sorry...
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 2 2010 : 10:34AM
The Metro Detroit area adult video stores are half gone. The selection of DVDs is lame, consisting mostly of compilations, MILF, and the usual suspects doing the usual "black men raped my wife and transsexual daughter" trends. I haven't ventured out to browse in months.
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Zaer Deactivated User
249 Posts 10/07
Posted - May 2 2010 : 12:02PM
Their business model continued to work in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression which has left 10's of millions of people unemployed. So given that they're still raking in millions in that environment it can endure file sharing, which it easily did from 2000-2007. It was only when the economy collapsed in 2008 that their profits dropped significantly. But as the economy continues to recover so will their profits.None of the major companies have gone, or are even close, to going out of business. In fact Brazzers, NA, BangBros, Digital Playground, Wicked, Vivid, etc..are still raking in millions, even in the middle of the worst economic environment since the 1930's. And before the recession the industry was doing even better than it is now. So don't you think that going through the worst recession since the great depression, with tens of millions left unemployed, was the main cause behind the downturn? Because you can't really stop that much economic activity without it having a deleterious impact on all sectors of the economy. Edited by - Zaer on 5/2/2010 1:55:05 PM
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 2 2010 : 12:45PM
Brick and mortar stores of all stripe are passing... There's no evidence that the internet is the sole, nor even the major cause of such a change in consumer trends (It may very well be a factor, sure) And well, Metro Detroit... talk about urban blight... It's no wonder they're talking about plowing it all under and growing crops instead....Which says to me that their complaint is not "We're not making any money", but rather "We think we should be making more", to which the response is, "You'll make as much money as the public decides to give you."
Hey Zaer, you obviously must have access to the P&L statements of all the companies that you mentioned who are "raking in millions". Could you please post them here so as to validate your moronic and completely uninformed statements? Oh wait... you don't have them?.... you're still just talking out of your own ass?.... thought so. Edited by - mike quasar on 5/2/2010 5:48:35 PM
I'm gonna call bullshit on this one. The same crappy xxx stores are still around that were here in the last decade, with high markup and poor selection compared to the vast internet stores. I've been looking for gape lovers 5 locally and none of the 6 stores I went to had it. Ended up ordering it online.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 2 2010 : 9:55PM
^ It's not bullshit...Metro Detroit XXX stores are exactly as shitty as I said they were. ....and worse. They'll be growing genetically modified soybeans in the cracks of the asphalt parking lots. I'll be ordering porn off the net.
I was calling bullshit on this part "The Metro Detroit area adult video stores are half gone. " Emphasis on the half gone part that is.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - May 2 2010 : 11:30PM
Well one thing I'm not gonna do is bullshit you. I may have to clarify that a shitload of regular video stores have packed up and left town. If you're a Metro Detroiter, you'll know what I'm talking about. Video stores that kept a good stock of fresh porn are very few these days. Their present selection is shit or compilations.
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NewRomancer Deactivated User
under THEIR avatar 738 Posts 7/08
Posted - May 3 2010 : 12:41AM
Lots of things have killed Brick & Mortar video stores... Downloading isn't the only factor... and there's no good evidence that it's even the biggest factor. It's an easy scapegoat
Video Exclusive on Telegraph Road in Dearborn Heights still has a great selection, but I haven't been there recently. It's not worth the drive when I get porn delivered by mail, without late fees.
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Porn from the late 80's to the late 90's generally sucked. The only ones worth watching were the couch interview movies as they were the only ones that gave you the sense the girl was really there. I say this as someone who loves porn from 70's through the mid-80's. However, I saw very few plot-based films from the late 80's to the late 90's worth my time. All the actresses were interchangeable. The large fake breasts ruled the land (much more than it does today) and they all had lazy plots. Porn in the last ten years has been a huge improvement over the previous decade. However, if people don't have to give their credit card and can see 3 or 4 minute clips on line they will. Fans need to spend money on the pornographers they like or we will all end up with nothing but amateur clips on the web. I have spent my share on sites like Brandon Iron at the PSN (although I caught a fragment that suggested BI may have been screwed by them). Also Reality Kings, Kink.com, and Annette Schwarz's site. I suppose I am a lawyer and may be able to afford more. But still, you can often find sites where you can join one and have access to a whole bunch like PSN, Reality Kings, or Brazzers.
Audrey Madison Interview
Posted - Apr 30 2010 : 10:35AM
, you didn't have this issue. The way the industry is run today is their biggest problem. It reminds me of Kodak. Waited way to long to get into digital, they missed the boat. Porn keeps trying to follow the same business model, they are missing the boat.