^^That's not even what I said at all JMB, but thanks for trying to twist my words into looking like a rape apologist. Let me put it another way. Stoya is a liar, most likely having pathological issues. She tells so many lies and has been caught in them that it's seems as if she believes the lies she tells. She's told lies about other performers, producers and made false accusations on James related to other issues prior to the breakup and then recanted them only to make the same accusations again. I was trying to be a little more polite about it, but there it is. Her credibility is very low and I struggle to believe her over James.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 2 2016 : 9:42PM
^ You made a character attack on an alleged rape victim and then said "let's just leave it at that" So yes, that is classic rape apologist behavior, so if the shoe fits...
Who has attacked her? Nothing has been done to her. She's not suffering repercussions. She's being heralded as a crusader, a hero, a martyr. If anything, this listen and believe attitude doesn't only encourage but incentivizes women to report. Media beg for stories like these. Please tell us of your plight, and please let us pay you for exclusive rights to publicize your story. I don't know what rock some folks have been living under, but there's big money in professional victimhood. People can make a career off of it if the just know how to market their story. Look at Ayan Hirsi Ali. She is constantly being booked for appearances and speeches. Why? Because her story is one of victimization. In Ali's case though I do believe what she is doing is heroic as an outspoken critic of oppressive ideology rampant throughout the undeveloped regions of Africa and the Middle-east. And she does speak out at great risk to her own life. Stoya may be a hero as well. Like I said, I'm still inclined to believe things went to far between her and Deen and she feels abused, or just call it rape since that term has become so diluted nowadays it's virtually interchangeable with harassment. But this just proves my point that there's pretty much nothing to lose by coming forward and making accusations. There IS however certainly something to lose from being accused - even if there's no proof. Compare the certain repercussions, then you may want to reassess your narrative. Edited by - Melvyn on 7/2/2016 10:27:33 PM
I don't think you know what the term rape apologist means. Rape apologists try to brush off acts of rape or sexual assault by putting the blame somehow on the girl or by shifting direct blame from the perpetrator. "Yeah they all groped her at that party, but that's just boys being drunk. She shouldn't have been there alone." That's the kind of things rape apologists say. It's either that, or situations like the recent Stanford case where they want the guy let off easy because it'll ruin his life. That's not what I did at all. I took a shot at Stoya's credibility. I did it because I think it's relevant. Stoya is a well documented, and perhaps, pathological liar. I'm saying that I don't believe her accusation and I'm saying why. That's not being a rape apologist. You might want to go learn what these terms mean if you're gonna try and sling shade at people.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 1:03PM
^Rape apologist, victim blamer, potato, puttahtoe. At no point did you ever address the claims of the victim, only her credibility. As already stated, logical conclusion of that line of "reasoning" is that it's okay to rape "unreliable" women because they shouldn't be believed/trusted. If you don't believe Stoya that's fine. No one is saying you should just assume she's telling the truth, but to patently dismiss what she's said (and ignore the numerous claims by almost a dozen other women) because of unrelated events, sets a very scary precedent. Let's do a hypothetical, shall we? A woman named Yotas has a history of making shit up about her boyfriend whom she enjoys rough sex with claims that she was raped by him. She's lying. Made the whole thing up. According to you, we shouldn't believe her, and look at that, you were right. Hooray for you. But tomorrow, her new boyfriend actually does rape her. Plain as day, no question about it, raped her. According to you, we shouldn't believe her. So now any sadistic fuck that wants to, gets a free pass to do whatever they want according to your misguided rules of rape evaluation. Do you not see a tiny flaw in your system here?
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 10:29PM
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter who believes her. If she was serious about it she would file charges and let the courts decide. Whether Porn fan A or B believe her or not is not a factor. I lean heavily towards believing a victim. I am also heavily biased towards Deen because of how he is off camera with a lot of people, pushing their boundaries and thinking everyone wants what he has to throw. So, I am not the most objective here and lean towards believing Stoya beacuse it fits my narrative of Deen. However, I just think this whole thing is a shit show because it is nothing but internet and twitter garble, and nobody took the time to actually file a police report. I fully understand why people do not come forward .However, if you do come forward, then take the proper actions to see it through. it doesn't serve a higher purpose to throw it out on twitter, get all upset because some people think a person should not be convicted over a twitter post, and then think nobody listens to victims. A person is not automatically "victim blaming" because they ask questions or use critical thinking to decide if this is on the level. The major part of our court system is that accusations and evidence must hold up to examination and scrutiny. so, I really don't think people should be calling someone a victim blamer because he may say "well, this is a twitter post, I don't want to tar and feather a guy over that". Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 7/3/2016 10:34:46 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 11:15PM
Precisely, and the same is true of victim blaming. There's a big difference between questioning whether or not a sexual assault actually occurred and alleging that the victim of a sexual assault that did actually occur is culpable. Calling someone a "rape apologist" necessarily involves a presupposition that a rape took place. Likewise, if you accuse someone of victim blaming you're assuming that there is actually a victim who is being blamed. "Maybe there was no victim because there was no sexual assault" is not victim blaming.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 11:25PM
^ You can split hairs about what I said all you want. (and save your self righteous indignation speech about how you're not engaging with me, for a thread where you aren't specifically addressing something I said) The idea that the accuser "has issues" and nothing more need be said (which is exactly what the guy you're defending said) is an open invitation to rape women "with issues" with no repercussions at all. He wasn't drawing a conclusion based on accounts of the incident (by either party) it was a casual off hand dismissal of her claim, simply because of who she is. Call it whatever the fuck you want. I don't really care. I'm going to call it a gross perversion of justice because that's exactly what it is. Edited by - murdock on 7/3/2016 11:29:37 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 11:36PM
It's rather amusing to me that murdock chose to ignore Canadian_Cindy (the third paragraph of her last post seems addressed to him) and to respond to me, although I have repeatedly stated that I will not have a conversation with him.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 11:45PM
Nice catch :) Yeah, I just think victim blaming is not something that should be applied in the case were someone says "this was sent out in a tweet and no further actions taken, I can not take this as factual and will not burn the accused to the ground with only a twitter post". Saying it is her fault he assaulted her by things such as "oh, she liked it at the time and now attacks him".... that is victim blaming...... bringing up her past lies (which do not matter to whether she was raped or not) could be looked up as victim shaming or something. I just think, in this instance, it is completely fair to not take a twitter post as fact and to ask critical questions. I have said many times I don't like rape allegations over twitter and there are better ways to do it. Especially when they can destroy a person's life and career (didn't happen here, but Deen is in porn. If he were an exec in a big company, he would lose his job over a twitter post and it is fair to argue that is wrong). I personally lean heavily towards believing her and the other women. Just again, I think asking critical questions when the accusation is sent out in a tweet and no further actions are taken, is not default victim blaming. Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 7/3/2016 11:48:36 PM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 4 2016 : 12:01AM
I'm glad you're amused. You quoted someone who was responding to me. CC was just just talking in general. See the difference? I also don't often read her posts. but you can's swing a dead cat around here without hitting a whole pile of MPUSA posts. congrats on that post count by the way, and bang up job you're doing still not engaging with me.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 4 2016 : 12:18AM
In order to appease the peanut gallery... The poster I was replying to was not using critical thinking. He simply dismissed Stoya's claim because of her past, not based on anything that actually had anything to do with the allegation. To your other points the bigger issue here besides did Dean actually rape Stoya, is that in a situation like this is it is literally impossible to prove by the standards of the US legal system that a rape took place. The accused are presumed innocent in a court of law, it is simply a matter of one person's word against another. Dean will always be found not guilty whether he did it or not. It's a giant gaping loophole in the US legal system. Not just for Stoya and Dean, but for anyone that engages in rough sex. The problem as I see it isn't that Stoya used twitter to report the crime, it's that twitter, was her best/only recourse. The US legal system provides absolutely no help for someone in that situation. People seem to think it would add legitimacy to her claim if she filed formal charges, but in reality it would only end up in an acquittal or more likely never perused by the DA, which would do just the opposite.
Yeah it's harder to care now. A LOT harder. I hate to sound apathetic, but... this was tremendously overblown. Nothing excuses what he did, if it did indeed go down as her version describes. But for her to remain with him for another year after this supposed trauma tells us, even if we refuse to forgive or excuse him, she did. They lived and remained together. Does anyone think they stopped having sex after that? I find that dubious. Now contrast this with Christy Mack's story. Yes she also enabled that savage ex of hers - to an extent. But it actually reached a boiling point where she drew the line and this was actually the cause of separation. Whatever the boiling point for Stoya and Deen was, obviously it wasn't the alleged rape. And again, I want to emphasize this to illustrate why this is so complex, I still am inclined to believe she told the truth in the simplest terms of that tweet. Of course as is problematic with tweets, critical context is typically excised. I care about women whose husbands are abusive. I care about when they are beaten and battered and intimidated. I don't care so much when they have rough sex that goes across a line. Sounds like she had a serious addiction to him in order to stay with him after he raped her. Love can make people crazy. Maybe he was addicted to her too. When all is said and done, I guarantee you this is much more common than the unspeakable horror many of us got the impression of initially. And when it's this common, I gotta assign some of, if not an equal amount, the responsibility to the women who stay. That's what sexual equality means. It's not just about matching privileges. It's about matching responsibility. If you don't believe in matching responsibility, then you can't really be for equality. To be sure, I don't mean it's 50/50 in that particular instance of the alleged rape. Not at all. I mean matching responsibility in the way we would assign it if the roles were the other way around, keeping the degree of responsibility on the abusers the same, not on the genders. Which is why I'd say the same thing if the roles were reversed, such that some guy was abused or violated by some female, but then he decided to stay with her for a whole year afterward. It gets to a point where it's well past enabling and more like cosigning with equal responsibility. And the longer a couple stay together, the more it is like they have accepted and learned to own one another's sins. I guess my question for others who didn't seem as concerned by the dates of the incident and their meet/split, since having to be the one to ask about it so many times I guess I'm missing something(?), does the timing have any bearing on how you feel about this? I guess it suggests that most people don't think it makes much difference?
Do you mean that you can rape anybody deemed unreliable because she couldn't accuse you ? You may take into account someone's reliability when she's a witness , then you could discard her testimony , but not an accusation , you have at least take a look and see if it's true , also in this particular case many other women backed her up about his behaviour. Anyway if you agree to a sexual act and the man doing it does it violently well over the agreement it's still rape although very difficult to prove
Don't engage with murdock, he's the resident troll here(he admitted to being an asshole) who lives for conflict as that consists of every one of his interactions on this forum, just look at how he's begging several of you to like "take his challenge"(Lmao) this is how some people feel alive it's quite sad. On-Topic: We've gone through this before. We have every right to believe Stoya is a liar and making this up based on her past and the way she handled this from the start. You can believe her all you want, just drop the extreme left-wing pretense with those branding terms and thinking anyone who doesn't believe her must think rape is ok. (How many more times are some of you gonna use the silly "OH SO THAT MAKES IT OK TO RAPE HER?" over any disagreement here for crying out loud).
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 4 2016 : 2:46PM
That's a pretty fucking stupid solution. At no point in any of my posts here have I suggested that Dean face any legal repercussions at all since he has no legal charges against him. But what I have said, am saying and will continue to say is: Ignoring the claims of someone who you arbitrarily deem to be unreliable in the past simply because they were (arbitrarily deemed) unreliable in the past, is just about the only thing more fucking stupid than the suggestion above. I don't know that there is a perfect solution to the problem, but my first suggestion would be to encourage people who like to engage in rough sex to take precautions to protect themselves legally, not just physically when engaging in such behavior. I know nothing says romance like a signed consent form but if you trust a person to choke you to near the point of unconsciousness, a little paperwork shouldn't be a deal breaker. It wouldn't fix everything but it would be a start.
And what about the others? She's not the first to say he goes beyond what's agreed and many backed her up , all liars? or wait a minute extreme left-wing pretenders?
^ And therein lies the problem with using her trustworthiness to claim James as innocent. I can accept the idea that she might not be telling the truth. But then you have to talk about/investigate the other 8-12 allegations out there. And I don't think they're all lying. Even if I thought she was lying, all the other stories lead me to believe that in general he's an asshole who is actually a sadist and likes pushing people's buttons/limits further than they're willing to let him. Which leads me right back to thinking she might not be lying. And all of that is ignoring my opinion on the interview he gave with Aurora Snow.
The only two performers who have actually accused him of anything illegal are Stoya and Amber Rayne. Stoya has made a number of false allegations against a whole slew of people in the industry and is a well known liar, so without something more than her accusation I'm choosing to not believe. Amber Rayne has made about 7 or 8 false rape allegations, so I'm also disinclined to believe her as well. The other people "backing Stoya up" as some of you put it have only corroborated generally shitty behavior. For example I believe it was Bree Olsen who complained about him pinching her on set out of view of the camera. While this might paint a general picture of him being a dick, it's not rape unless she told him to stop fucking her and he continued. Being a douche does not equal being a rapist, much as some of you white knights want to make that correlation. For Murdock specifically, I'm not an authority figure and I have no responsibility to investigate anything. So I'm free to arbitrarily disregard whatever I choose based on whatever I want. If I ever become a cop or a prosecutor, that freedom will go away.
^ What Amber accused him of wasn't illegal. He was hired to do a rough anal scene, and the scene went too rough. If what he did was illegal, then any wrestling match where one of the hits actually lands and hurts the other person would be illegal/assault as well. On the other hand, what Tori Lux accused him of would be at least assault (if not sexual assault) in a court of law. And if we want to get super-technical, Ashley Fires could have brought him up on rape charges (which she'd never win because it would be nothing but a he-said, she-said story).
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 4 2016 : 8:31PM
If I'm not mistaken, others have accused him of sexual assault as well. Not rape, but last I checked, sexual assault is still illegal. And it's fairly obvious you're cherry picking what to believe and what to include based on your preconceived notions. Stoya has a history of lying about other things, so her history of being a liar immediatly discredits her. James has a history of pushing people to their limits (and sometimes beyond) but in your mind that has nothing to do with a rape allegation so it's just ignored. And yes, we're all free to make up our minds based on whatever criteria we choose. I'm just saying (and explaining why) the criteria you've chosen is a gross perversion of justice. If you can't handle any criticism of your shitty logic perhaps you shouldn't be so inclined to share it. Oh and one last thing... While Stoya's reputation as a liar paints the general picture of an unreliable accuser, that doesn't mean she couldn't have been raped. Being a liar in general doesn't mean she lied about the allegations as much as you white knights want to make that correlation. Enjoy your 4th.
^Stoya's history isn't simply that of being a liar, but specifically of making false allegations against people. That's a big difference. And no, her history doesn't automatically mean the accusations are false. No one's saying otherwise, at least I'm not. However her accusation doesn't mean he's guilty either. So you can try to make that part of your argument if you choose, but that thing goes both ways.
I googled "stoya false allegations" and couldn't find anything. It may well be that google is swamped with the most recent news and I couldn't find it on the first few pages. Now that I have made the effort, can you please provide links to make it easier? And while you're there, please provide links to where Amber Rayne made 7 or 8 false rape allegations.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jul 5 2016 : 1:46AM
Dean's history isn't simply that of being a dick, but specifically he has been a sexually aggressive dick to women. That's a big difference.Then care to elaborate what you meant by this:Because it sure sounds like you're suggesting her accusations are false based exclusively on her history.
Amber Rayne has made 7 or 8 false rape accusations? What? Links? I've never heard about this and she seems to have had a favorable reputation. Didn't she die recently and a lot of people were expressing kind condolences and sympathies? And didn't Amber actually offer some sympathy for Deen in the wake of this scandal? Actually I remember now she said she forgave him for the brutal experience she described which he put her through, and she evidently wasn't harboring any ill will toward him. I don't know much about her personal life, but it would surprise me to learn she was the type to make false accusations if she was willing to forgive and sympathize with Deen.
This is a hell of a long thread considering there aren't any hard facts to go on. There's an uncorroborated allegation. Without a full trial, no one knows what happened, if anything. How can anyone decide who's telling the truth without hearing them both give evidence? She has chosen not to make a formal complaint to the police; he has chosen not to sue for slander. We are no further forward and probably never will be. Everything else is pure speculation. That's the thread pretty much summed up from what I can see.
Yes you're right; my fault. I should have been more specific. I was referring to the fact that we're on page 42 of the thread and people are still expressing views on whether a rape took place. I didn't mean to diminish the wider issues that have been debated.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Jul 5 2016 : 12:52PM
This made me laugh... someone who accuses Stoya making things up, makes up something that isn't true to support the position :)
It's paradoxical, but often we will notice the stories with the least information available to us are the most heatedly debated. Because when a case is enshrouded in doubt and speculation, it basically provides a blank canvas for polarized reactionaries to just unleash all manner of colliding narratives. Recall what was arguably the most heated debate of any American news story in the last decade, the case of Trayvon Martin v George Zimmerman. Since there were no witnesses to what started the fight, everyone was left to their imagination, and like I said, that just provides a vacuum of doubt which sort of becomes a space for people to project their own nightmares or politically motivated narratives. It's been over 4 years and there's still no certainty, but there are a lot of roundly rejected myths that remain which people still cling to because of so much media spin and provocation. I can't tell you how many times I see people still perpetuating debunked claims about that case to this day, and I'm talking about things which we debunked 4 years ago. So many people kneejerked and jumped to conclusions based on misleading media propaganda, and they would only double down on poorly analyzed, unsound, and prejudiced positions.
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StarGrek Deactivated User
Under the moonlight. 1763 Posts 10/11
Posted - Jul 6 2016 : 7:50AM
This is a very complicated subject which has many parameters. It is started with an intimate incident between a couple but it quickly slept away as more and more allegations accumulated. But I honestly think it is time to let the issue gradually fade away just like the industry silently did. James already started to perform again. Stoya has a very sensitive soul but I "think" she let it behind. As about the other alleged victims, I am not allowed to say anything any more. If you ask me I think it had a good side all this fuss. It might make careless adult performers more cautious and more professional, in the good sense. In other words they might think it twice before they do something against the will and consent of the actress. The bottom line is this. Weather rape is happening indoors (between a related couple) or happens outdoors (in a dark alley for example), weather this is "covered" during a pornographic scene or it happens in war, raping is an utterly condemned action and it doesn't characterize a real man. And when I mean rape, I mean forced sex without the complete consent of the individual and not the "no", which actually means "yes".
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 6 2016 : 10:54AM
The industry was mostly silent, but I don't know that they let anything fade away. As I pointed out on another thread, if Deen didn't have his own site he'd hardly be shooting at all.
^ There's really only a couple companies that were shooting him before that aren't shooting him now (the primary one I can think of being Tushy). He's still shooting for Jules, for New Sensations, for EroticaX (which is run by James Avalon, not Mason).
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jeffandersonn Deactivated User
1605 Posts 3/13
Posted - Jul 6 2016 : 2:02PM
he is shooting for lots of different companies. Jules jordan, Bang.com archangel etc
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 6 2016 : 2:06PM
^ and ^^ It's not my impression that he's shooting as many scenes (not counting his site) as he was at the same time in 2015 and 2014, when I would hear about new content from him (again, not counting his site) very regularly. That said, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That's disappointing.
^^ It is less, it's just not a whole lot less. And the fact that he has his site to fall back on means that even if he's getting a couple less shoots per week, he can just fill those spots up by shooting for his site and still make money.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Jul 6 2016 : 2:48PM
As I have said many times, I don't like Deen and I lean heavily towards believing Stoya even though I feel twitter was the wrong method. In saying that...... Do we really want a society where a man loses all of his income and work based solely on a twitter accusation? This seems to be what people want, and are outraged he is still getting work. I just think we have to look at the overall picture and not just our disgust (at least in my case) for one particular person. In society at large, I should not be able to make a twitter comment about a man and his entire career is shut down the next day without even so much as an investigation. I don't support that line of thinking. I can get organizations suspending people (like they are diong in sports), however, his career should be returned if no charges or convictions come from it. Before someone brings up Bill Cosby being blackballed from work; his is a very unique situation. First, because the vast majority of these alleged incidents are far past any ability to get a police investigation, and secondly, the number of women that have gone on record ,made sworn statements, and done, serious interviews, is overwhelming. All we have with Deen is a few women making one or two online comments and that is that. I just want to say, I don't think it is an outrage that companies are giving him work. He didn't get charged, investigated, or sued, or anything . I can see why people won't want to bury him at this stage. While our justice systems our flawed, there is a basic principle that someone should be able to be heard, and examine and scrutinize evidence and allegations against them in a court of law.
James is definitely working much less now. He used to be pretty ubiquitous, especially in Mason movies. Now if I see he's in an upcoming scene for a company other than his own, it's unusual enough for me to take notice. Just to confirm my sense of things, I checked Data18. Since the allegations became public, he's had 58 scenes released from the start of Dec. 2015 to the end of June 2016. That's compared to 245 scenes released during the same time period the year before. So yeah, his career has absolutely suffered because of these allegations. The idea that the industry as a whole has simply turned a blind eye to his alleged behavior is not supported by the numbers.
James Deen @ AEBN
Posted - Jul 2 2016 : 9:35PM
