I disagree that they're comparable. Like I said, both are trying to get more money by holding out, but the reasons for doing so are not similar, and in the case for IR, it's race related. That separates it wholly from the sports example because of that very immutable fact of race. You can't change your race, but a team's coaches can change, a team's players can improve, etc, so it's less immoral to wait on a sports team for a bigger paycheck than it is to wait on IR. Again, I'm not blaming the girls for the system, I am blaming them for adhering to it. They obviously get paid more that way and that's a reasonable approach to it, but it does not make it any less immoral than it is.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 1:28AM
^^^^Perhaps pornstars will take your personal moral code into consideration when IR fans do. Note that I referred to IR fans. IR itself has a consumer base. There is a significant, unique demand for IR and it is in that context that IR firsts are event porn. Edited by - misspornUSA on 7/27/2017 1:29:09 AM
Just because the "market" says something ought to be priced higher than something else has no bearing on the morality of it. The morality of it is what I'm arguing.
That's a chicken or the egg question, is it not? Whose job is it to start the reform? Realistically speaking, either side can. The difference being that it is faster and quicker for the industry to change than it is for the fanbase to change, on the account that there are simply more minds in the latter than the former. Just like how you quoted Mimefreak to have said that it was the industry's idea to do "firsts" they can do away with that idea as well.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 1:36AM
^^^^Pornstars are still waiting and most do not have IR on their tickets when they enter the industry. However, in the Blacked era, the waits are becoming shorter and shorter. Let's not forget the beating that Bella Rose took on social media when she expressed antiquated views about IR. I think that we're living in a different time than before.
Are the waits becoming shorter(for those who do intend to shoot but opt to hold out)? Yeah, it feels like it, but again I don't have the numbers. For those that do intend to shoot, the decade or longer waits seem to be going away. And Bella Rose got attacked for what other female performers perceived as a slight at them for working with black men. Elena Koshka flat out said that the sooner a girl does anal, black men, etc, the sooner her career comes to an end.
^ As an industry, porn is a disorganized mess, so I don't think anyone has any concrete statistics on that. What I have noticed though are girls who charge the same rate for IR as they do for any other vanilla scene. At the same time though, those are a minority, and the likes of Bella Rose still exists. In addition, most things on the economics side of porn will be kept hidden from us, so we may never know for certain.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 2:03AM
^^I would care about what Elena said if there were any evidence at all that she was voicing a popular opinion among pornstars, but the Blacked era trend away from waiting forever to shoot IR makes me indifferent. Bella Rose claimed that the only reason to shoot IR is if you're in need of quick money or you're washed up, and she got slapped around online like a ragdoll for saying that. Edited by - misspornUSA on 7/27/2017 2:04:23 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 2:26AM
^^^^^I expressed and defended similar views to your's at length on this thread in the past, so I might have some idea of where you're coming from, but there's not a chance in hell that what you're asking for will take place. If consumer demand for IR firsts dries up, then the industry will respond accordingly. There are also a whole host of questions about your implication that there is a moral imperative for the industry to change their approach to IR, the first being the most obvious: Why should the people within the industry, or anyone at all, adhere to your moral code? In the absence of a moral consensus, merely stating that there is a moral imperative is not enough imho.
The quest for moral fiber in porn will fall on deaf ears. Racial divides still thrive in our society, and to expect porn to change in accordance to someones moral code is a naive line of thinking. Things like Blacked exist for this sole reason, because IR was forged into its own separate entity and they want to capitalize on it. So basically what I'm saying is, you're going to need our world to change its view on race if you want porn to change. It's not like other industries. It's sex, first and foremost. And when it comes to that, a select few will always have an archaic thought process behind differing ethnic backgrounds having sex. That said, fans enable IR just as much as the industry who created it.
^ / ^^ both fair points but doesn't actually say much. Change can and have come from both sides of an issue, from the masses and from those in control. As others have noted, the industry is changing in the "BLACKED era". Attitudes of consumers are also changing as race becomes less of an issue for many. It's a slow process, but it is happening, and has been happening for sometime.
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Milo Balz Deactivated User
111 Posts 7/17
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 3:36AM
As stated, it's personal opinion. We all have gut feelings and my track record is pretty good for making judgement calls. I guess you would rather she work another decade in porn before doing IR? How do you deny a sexual desire when you are in the industry this long? For the record, I make my opinion known, when there are facts, I will certainly reference the data. All said, you can find facts, it's personal opinion in most cases you won't have unless someone shares that with you. If this isn't a place for opinion, speak now or forever hold your peace :-)
All this words to say you completely made it up, you actually know nothing about her views , you're just speculating about Alexis , even if you're right about the others and I'm not in any way confirming that you are , even if you're right , that doesn't mean than Alexis shares their views
i dont think Rachel Starr is racist she said that she had a black boyfriends in the past but she is no comfortable with stereotipes of interracial porn or the barely legal porn too so thats what she dont like to shoot that kind. she has always said that she is not a size queen so she is not atracted to big cocks like lexington steele or mandingo. Despite of that she has always said that she would love to work with greg lansky and maybe its the best option to see her first interracial but i think is not easy beacuse they have to arrange the rates and schedule because she is living in Dallas a just shoots a few weks each year.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 11:43AM
I don't see why that must mean that your opinion has no basis, which is why I asked my question.Just to be clear, your basis for speculating that Rachel is not attracted to any black men is your gut feeling and what you believe to be a good track record for making judgement calls?No. What makes you think that?I don't have any reason at all to believe that she is denying herself. We don't know if she has slept with black men offscreen. She could even have slept with black male performers. I certainly don't know, but what I do know is that choices about who to have sex with for money as part of your job/career is a different matter.That a personal opinion is not a fact does not mean that it has no basis in facts.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 11:53AM
Why is the industry changing? Surely it's not in response to a moral imperative. People are looking for the most effective ways to make money, and it is consumers who determine which methods have the most success.IR has experienced a surge in popularity since the advent of Blacked, and yet you conclude that race is becoming less important for consumers?
agents obviously are influencing these girls, but the girls still eat up the "advice" nonetheless. And just because a person holds a position of power over others doesnt make them correct on their decisions and allow them to pull Trump cards as they see fit Now with said, the logic is that IR makes more money. Yet standard IR is no more physically demanding than anything less than Anal and gangbangs. So if the easier physical stress brings in more revenue for client and agent, why would one steer clear of it for years and years and years? I still believe that many believe IR scenes will ruin their lives outside of porn, and only an absurd amount of money will ever get them to consider a change of mind. Another excuse I dont like is the portrayal aspect, guys like Lex, Mandingo, Napier, Marcus were pretty much stand up guys(sans Marcus' abrupt end). Marcus, Slayer, and Prince were never the biggest studs. Jules and Elegant pretty much kept the edgy raceplay out of their films BTW, these agents are the ones crafting these excuses too I bet
^^I think that argument would have more weight if we saw an increase in all kinds of IR along with Blacked's popularity. The scarcity of hard raceplay and thug/hood scenes would seem to indicate a shift away from fetish and toward racial variety.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 28 2017 : 1:02AM
^Separate issues imo. There is a sizable consumer demand for scenes between black men and women who are not black. Again, there is a demand for that specifically, apart from a general demand for b/g. The extent to which those scenes include some elements of raceplay doesn't have any obvious bearing on the fact that there is a substantial consumer base who are clamoring for scenes that feature black men - not just any men - black men having sex with non-black women.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 28 2017 : 1:04AM
Kevin Moore, Bonnie Rotten, and other people in the industry have provided answers both on this thread and elsewhere. In any case, the practice of waiting years and years and years to shoot IR is becoming old hat. If a new performer enters the industry today and sticks around with the intent of shooting IR, I think that there's a good chance that she'll shoot IR in the first or second year.That foolish old excuse has been discussed ad nauseum on this thread and is rare today.
Actually dogfart is shifting more and more toward racial roleplay and hard cuckolding the absence of any N word doesn't mean there isn't race play Edited by - LCF on 7/28/2017 9:50:42 AM
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Eco195 Deactivated User
126 Posts 2/12
Posted - Jul 28 2017 : 4:20PM
Rachel has been in the industry since 2007 and has pointedly refused to do such scenes. So she's made her racial views quite clear through her actions. Alexis has as well. And words as we all know in this world don't mean anything if one's actions directly contradict them.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 28 2017 : 4:43PM
^Rachel's choice to not shoot IR as part of her job tells us nothing about her offscreen sex/romantic life on who she's attracted to in reality. Likewise with Alexis. The reverse is also true. Shooting lots of IR does not mean that a pornstar is interested in black men in her personal life, anymore than shooting a lot of anal means that a pornstar loves anal sex. Trying to discern a pornstar's real life tastes from her work is a naïve pursuit, especially if that pornstar isn't producing her own content like, say, Dana Vespoli.
I think you misunderstood what I mean by "race". By "race" I mean the fact that it's less taboo to have sex with a man of color for whatever reasons it may be (familial reasons, personal reasons, etc). Not even a decade ago, there were stories of pornstars having their privacy invaded because they shot IR. Nowadays, interracial both in real life and in film is far more acceptable than before. As to why the industry is changing, that is a narrow view of it. Industries do not pivot like the IR industry has from "hard raceplay" to the more vanilla stuff like BLACKED or DarkX does without multiple reasons. For one thing, yes you are right that there is a monetary incentive in those vanilla IR scenes, but the question is why that is. That reason being was that there was a void in that IR industry where IR was by and large part of gonzo porn, so it was often associated with other gonzo acts. By making high-quality vanilla IR porn, that gap was filled because there was a need and a desire for that to be filled. Why people enjoy that kind of IR is in part because of that "moral desire" to see IR in that way, as well as for other reasons. Obviously, some people just watch BLACKED and DarkX because they want to see people fuck and others watch it because they want to see a black guy fuck. But those are things they could find on other IR sites, but until BLACKED came along, those IR sites they did find were all gonzo and "extreme" for a lack of better word.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 28 2017 : 8:09PM
^I agree with you that interracial sex has become more accepted in society. On the issue of Blacked's success, I wrote the following on the Is IR becoming too PC? thread:Something else that I wrote on that thread:
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Milo Balz Deactivated User
111 Posts 7/17
Posted - Jul 29 2017 : 3:44PM
True, but I'm just here to chat on the most basic level. I'm not footnoting, foreshadowing or plagiarizing anything. From the start, I come from the heart! I don't know dick about Rachael. What I did know is what makes sense to me. Is it possible she's slept with a black man, yes, it's possible. It's also probable if she had during her career, she would have cashed in or confirmed that she had. For an industry that tells white women that IR will hurt their career, I sure see a lot of top male talent is "White Boy Stomp" and other titles where white guys fuck black girls in the ass. Hasn't hurt their careers. As you can see, I'm upfront. You don't want to do IR, don't! Doesn't bother me, you want bonus points, come out and say you aren't interested. At that point, there is nothing left to say. I just saw Life After Porn 2 on Netflix and a popular 90's star said she could still be working if she was willing to do Anal or Black men, but she wasn't willing to do either anymore. I forget her name, I want to call her Cassie or Casey, but I think her mom was Kitten, or something to that effect. She was a female bodybuilder. Anyway, I found that offensive. Everything porn has to offer, she wants to compare sleeping with black man to the pain, stench and messiness of anal. The good news is it's not always painful, smelly or messy. I think those terms were more reflective of her career and life, but the lingering effects of those comments define the stigma.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 29 2017 : 6:01PM
Introducing probability into the mix isn't chatting on the most basic level. As far as I know, Rachel hasn't claimed that she's never slept with a black man. I could be wrong about that, but since I'm not aware of any evidence either way, I'm agnostic on the question of whether she's slept with black men offscreen, and likewise agnostic about whether she's not attracted to any black men or not.Some people in the industry made that claim in the past. I suppose some people are still making that claim today (I wouldn't be surprised if Ben English still holds that opinion), but current trends seem to indicate that it's fewer people than in the past.Haven't seen it, but I assume that she grouped them together because she doesn't want to do either of them and believes that she would need to for the sake of her career were she still in the industry. Personally, I think that porn would collapse if performers only shot sex acts that they were personally interested in. Edited by - misspornUSA on 7/29/2017 6:02:37 PM
^^ Yeah, Milo, lumping working with black men in with any act that is treated as more extreme than B/G in the industry is as insulting as fuck. Period. And before anyone brings up size, scenes with black men are still lumped in with acts that are treated as more extreme than B/G no matter how large or small the black male talent actually is. The fact that this is so normalized tells me everything I need to know.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 29 2017 : 8:35PM
^A big part of the reason that IR is lumped in with anal is because there is a demand for both that is distinct from the general demand for b/g.
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Milo Balz Deactivated User
111 Posts 7/17
Posted - Jul 29 2017 : 10:03PM
IR and Anal are two subjects that inflame most non porn advocates. Anal is seen as the ultimate sin, despite most men craving it even in the most closeted ways. IR makes most white men uncomfortable. Trumps determination to repeal Obamacare isn't about how broken it is, it's about taking one of the biggest wins of his administration and stripping it away. They couldn't couldn't take Saddam Hussein, but they could piggy back off it and claim that Bush put the ball in play. Just like the game of pool is over when the white ball put the black ball in the hole. Any black man that get's up and over on a white man is a threat. The real gem is it's not about getting up or over, it's about equality and it's no different than not wanting or needing something until a black man is interested. Her name was Chasey Lain, and again, the perfect example of a burnout in the industry. The fact that the only offers she's had to return are for IR and Anal unfortunately sum up "The White Man's" value of her worth.
More extreme or more valuable? You do understand that the money flows because it's IR and is considered different do you? Why would anybody pay a membership to an IR site if it was just as any other sex site? Why would there be a thing such as "IR fan" if it was exactly the same? Why would such IR fan so obsessed with IR if it was exactly the same? So you say it's the same but it really isn't
I can't understand why throwing bananas at people is percieved as racism but what you call "racial play" is not. If IR porn works and sells, it doesn't mean society is more equal, it only means more customers are racist. A wordplay maybe is better: Sex sells but Racism races sex.
Although lots of IR and anal fans won't admit it or can't even see it, the reason that they like IR and anal so much is because they see it as "taboo" or "edgy" as opposed to "regular" sex. It's going above and beyond typical sex. In the case of anal it's something that goes further than ordinary sex and seen as something that makes her a bit more dirty/slutty than the typical girl who doesn't do such things. Others see it as just another way to "give it" to this slutty girl who is just there to let a guy do whatever they want to her. With IR some people still look at it as this edgy/taboo act that adds a layer of "hardcore" to a scene. Can this sweet (or slutty) white girl handle all this big black meat? Or they want to see that white girl get defiled by that big black brute. There are different reasons for people liking IR but in most every case the bigger penis or the harder she gets it the better. That's why the most popular black performers by far are the ones with the biggest package or at least pounds girls the hardest. Most porn is about fetishes or fantasies or about seeing something uncommon or extreme. It's why so many people on this site don't like anything remotely in the realm of "vanilla" sex. They want/need their porn to go above typical regular people sex.I was a big fan of Chasey. But to be honest there really isn't a strong argument for her to come back to porn at this point to only do more of the same she's done before. Is there really a point? She's older now and why watch an older version o her doing the same thing when there's plenty of footage of her in her prime doing that. If she expects people to get excited over a comeback from her she will have to offer up stuff we haven't seen before to get our attention and to make it worth someone paying to shoot her. In a porn world where a girl needs something to make her stand out to get work she will have hard time getting steady mainstream work. Most pornstars get work due to their beauty, youth, big breasts, big butt, and/or willingness to do anal, gangbangs, extreme sex, or IR. If a girl doesn't have physical attributes to make her standout or is willing to do sex acts that are above the norm she will have an extremely hard time succeeding in porn in any major way. Edited by - draxxx on 7/30/2017 10:17:06 AM
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Milo Balz Deactivated User
111 Posts 7/17
Posted - Jul 30 2017 : 2:35PM
I think that sums it up. Honestly, her entire interview in the film was weak and I saw someone who regretted their career, especially the IR and anal acts. I also saw someone so ruined from being a junkie that her opinion was secondary to her addiction. She though IR or Anal would make her bigger than Jenna or Savanna, and when it didn't she started her spiral.
^ I actually felt bad for Chasey in that interview. For years she had been the pampered contract girl who didn't have to do anything she didn't want to and got treated like a star and had a fanbase that was totally happy with what she did. But after her contract era ended and she had to make it in the harsh world of Gonzo she had a harder go of it. Gonzo has fans who expect more and don't really care much about a girl's Contract Girl heyday. Looks can only get a girl so far when there are so many great looking pornstars out there who are willing to do more. Without the backing of a studio keeping a girl in the spotlight and promoting her a girl entering or in Gonzo has to work harder to get noticed. Gonzo is in the era of more extreme sex acts and IR. Chasey and other Contract Girls who try to transition without willing to step up their game always have a harder time being a Gonzo star. We see this happening all the time.
Crazy theory time: what if some women in porn avoid IR work because they actually are that into black guys - like they really love them and in fact prefer black lovers in their private lives? Maybe they don't want the "job" to ruin what they honestly love. We spend so much time trying to connect the dots between racism and avoidance of IR in the industry in order to indict someone's character, but what if the truth was the polar opposite, with the same end result? I can think of some things I enjoy doing which I would probably enjoy less if doing it as a "job." In fact this is quite common. People often struggle to enjoy a craft under constraints of streamlined production and other inorganic parameters that sap the fun and passion out of it. How many times have we heard performers say the sex they engage in for work is routine and removed of their showy performances is hollow? Of course, it's different for everyone and I have no doubt some performers do genuinely enjoy shooting sex and are very much into it personally.
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Daime Deactivated User
28 Posts 8/17
Posted - Aug 4 2017 : 1:20PM
This is my they first time on this place, and I been reading this forum for a long time, and I want to give my take on this subject. As a black man I do enjoy IR porn but sometimes some of the girls who do it don't even enjoy black men or don't even like IR. I don't want to give out names on here but some of them will do it for a lot more money. If she really feel like it when she shouldn't do those type of scenes. Let support girls like Jada Stevens, Sara Jay, August Ames, Nina Kayy, Kate England, Kagney Linn Karter, and many others who enjoy doing scenes with black men and they don't even do it for more money like most of these girls do
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themagnum Deactivated User
116 Posts 2/17
Posted - Aug 5 2017 : 6:26AM
Many on this forum have stated that porn is a business. Yet when these white women want to hold out for a bigger paycheck, this forum gets irritated and start to bring in her upbringing/private life. If a white woman doesnt want to do IR, that's their choice. But these idiots go on social media and badger these white porn stars to do IR (or Anal, DP, etc). Why would these "fans" get angry when white women don't want to do IR but believe they can fuck whomever they want? It's complete hypocrisy. It's the kind of shit that makes me want to log out and not come to this place. Why read a bunch of insane and neurotic shit from assholes?
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - Aug 20 2017 : 3:19AM
[Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available]
^ I'd like to know how an IR fan would find his movies and preferred scenes when they aren't tagged as such, how they would find all the scenes from a star when they're not separated with a tag , also how would they allow even the existence of an "IR Site" any racial reference should be removed from title, name , tags , reference to performers and such Last but not not least, does Flash really think he would get the same amount of bookings out of IR ? Does he really think he gets booked because of his overwhelming and charming personality? His stellar performances instead of just having a black dick? Edited by - LCF on 8/20/2017 10:28:28 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 20 2017 : 11:30AM
^ and ^^ I just don't understand how a former contract star for Blacked can be in denial about the distinct consumer demand for IR. Unless he's just saying "Fuck consumer demand", which would be ridiculous in light of the current financial state of the industry.
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Daime Deactivated User
28 Posts 8/17
Posted - Aug 20 2017 : 2:30PM
Speaking of Flash there was one black male performer just quit porn because he was call the N-Word by a white directors.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 20 2017 : 4:05PM
^Thanks. I see that Michael Adam responded to Jovan's account of what happened. I won't take a position except to say that it's unfortunate that Jovan retired. He wasn't one of my favorite talents but I did like a lot of his work. Edited by - misspornUSA on 8/20/2017 5:08:44 PM
^×5 LCF, you’re Italian. I’m an Italian myself, but live in Germany. Here in the local video stores at least, there is no interracial section, these are all mixed up with the other titles, categories are: Teens, MILFs, Lesbian, Tits, Fat, Trans, Gay. (oh, and Asian... I guess there is a special demand for it) Still, interracial gets rented a lot, and those who seek it out know the studios and where to look for it. I don’t know how italian video stores/rental places are set up, though. Today I watched the remake of The Magnificent Seven with Denzel Washington. Would you expect to find this movie (because it has Black, Asian and native american actors, as well as white actors) in a specialized section? Or thematically sorted, right where it belongs: under Western. Because interracial again can be Teens, MILFs, Lesbian, Tits, FAT, Trans, Gay (... well, I guess the industry is what it is, as the occurrence of the Asian section demonstrates: there’s no 'asian' category in conjunction with 'interracial'). I get that there is a special demand that consumers look for it for either aesthetic reasons (they like the contrast of the skin colors etc.) or for the taboo reason (which I find hard to grasp, to be honest). Edited by - lex von v on 8/20/2017 4:07:44 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 20 2017 : 4:44PM
^On amazon.com in the US, sub-categories under "Books" include "African American Romance Fiction", "African American Women's Fiction", "African American Urban Fiction", etc. That is more analogous to porn imo. If someone wants to read a book about black characters, why not make it easier for them to find what they want? The specificity makes sense. It also makes sense in porn. If I want to see a black man having sex with a woman who isn't black, why should I have to wade through a bunch of other stuff first? Who does that help?
Posted - Jul 27 2017 : 1:16AM
