For "blind" I didn't mean they didn't see the differences , fact was that a complexion was seen no differently than hair color or eyes color , the word niger was only used to describe someone and never him as a person , someone from nubia , was a nubian not a "niger guy" , mind you to the Romans the most sauvages among the "barbarians" were the Germanic tribes and the Northern white populations , not the Africans . When they kneww the origin of soeone that someone was a "Chattus" (a Gernmanic tribe) not A blonde Barbarian and the Numidic populations whose complexion was a lot darker than that of the Romans weren't called "niger" but Numidic. More than that a numidic or a nubian free man could own white slaves. Most of the slaves in Roman territories where whites remember that , there was no "superior race" nor races "born slave" Edited by - LCF on 5/18/2017 9:20:03 AM
To the Romans citizenship was what mattered , Paul of Tarso (aka Saint Paul) was arrested an condemned in Antiochia Greece he just had to say "Civis Romanus Sum" I am a Roman citizen and he was granted appeal in Rome , no further questions were required even though he wasn't even of Italian origin , the famous attorney and writer Lucius Apuleius was numidic his father was a Senator and a former Consul and Magistrate of Rome he was thought to be black much like king Massinissa ,until recently where some scholars deny this possibility. Horatius was the son of a Freed man. There was no law nor attitude to stop any freed man to pursue whatever career they desired
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 18 2017 : 11:23AM
^The source of that story about Paul is the Book of Acts, which is not particularity reliable. An increasing number of scholars date it to the second century (most notably Joseph Tyson and Richard Pervo), even into the 120s. It contradicts Paul's much earlier, first hand accounts repeatedly, and even contradicts itself (for example, Acts 21:39 has Paul as a citizen of Tarsus, not Rome). Ekkehard and Wolfgang Stegemann, John Pilch, and other scholars have pointed out that Paul's own writings, such as the treatment he describes in 2 Corinthians 11:24-25, prove that he was not a Roman citizen. Anyway, it's quite clear that Romans placed much more importance on what they thought to be their advanced culture than they did on complexion. A citizen belonged to Roman civilization - a supposedly higher culture - and therefore by definition wasn't an uncultured, uncivilized barbarian.
Still he reported what was common knowledge , Cicero was Condemned and killed because as a Magistrate he put to death a Roman Citizen without appeal Also the Romans did not consider themselves the highest peak of culture , Greek was and especially Athens , a Roman who couldn't speak Greek was considered a rude one , there was a say Graecia Capta ferum victorem coepit (Conquered Greek conquered those savages who won over it) They considered themselves almost wild compared to the Greeks and the same awe they had for the obviously ancient Egypt far more older than Rome itself
I believe that slavery is the key word , to some it's unthinkable that a society whose labor was based on slavery could be "color blind" but still there are no cultural references in over 1000 years of western Roman Empire of any derogatory attitude toward blacks , if there was , yet still to be found , it was very rare , no People was deemed slave by birth and the dark or black populations in Southern Mediterranean Sea were more civilized than the Northen Europeans by far, the Romans of course had black slaves as well but the vast majority of the slaves in the Empire were White Europeans , Celts, Germans or Slavic Black or dark complexed guys or even Freed guys may likely have had white slaves , and nobody gave a fuck. It wasn't important .
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 18 2017 : 5:21PM
I don't know where you're getting the idea that Romans viewed Greece as having a superior culture to their own. Erich Gruen is one of the experts on the relationship of Romans and Greeks, and he's written on the subject in detail. Nothing I've read from him or any other expert in the field has talked about Romans generally viewing Greek culture as superior, notwithstanding Horace's comment.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 18 2017 : 5:25PM
I don't know of any historian who argues that Roman slavery was color based, so if that's debated I'm not aware of it.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - May 18 2017 : 9:00PM
I have a question for everyone who insist that performers put aside their personal belief system when it comes to doing or not doing I/R? Do you practice what you preach and have sex with black guys?
So, in other words, would we work with someone we aren't sexually attracted to and/or aren't comfortable being seen with on camera(assuming there is a person or group of persons we wouldn't want to be seen with on camera for whatever reason.)
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - May 18 2017 : 9:36PM
No, not in other words, while in theory it's "work" it's still sex. So, will you fuck black guys?
And as far as the lack of attraction thing goes, the fantasy has to be sold that it could be me. I don't get much of anything out of the content of performers that make it clear that they would never touch anyone who best represents my point-of-view, unless they're in one of Ryan Madison's Teenfidelity creampie scenes or a part of a scene with Nacho Vidal's & Mike Angelo's & Chris Diamond's no inhibitions style of fucking. But generally, if the content doesn't include my point-of-view, it's difficult to muster up must interest in it, especially when there's high quality content that specifically caters to it.
If I were a woman, and if I were getting paid for it? Yes. If I were a dude and still getting paid for it? Probably not because I just can't see any way it'd be a scene worth shooting since I'm not attracted to men at all (and not being attracted to a gender and not being attracted to a complexion isn't the same thing on a fundamental level). And that's ignoring that I've never said that performers should put aside their personal beliefs when deciding who they do and don't shoot with, and have advocated against calling performers racist solely because they don't shoot with black male performers. I can quote a few times where I've personally said each in this thread. Page 1:Page 16:
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Agreed. The attraction justification has always been nonsense. Furthermore, from a purely financial perspective racial discrimination in ones scene partners limits profits. Particularly since female talent have a limited time frame in which they're at their most popular, and can cash in on it, before being replaced by younger talent (~ 2-5 years).
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 19 2017 : 11:18AM
^^Remember when Rosco argued that pornstars don't receive any pleasure when they shoot? So porn is not really work, and pornstars don't get any pleasure at all from performing. They just show up on set for what is only theoretically a job to do something they definitely won't enjoy.
Sorry, I overlooked this post. Considering that some of us are heterosexual males, we probably are not going to fuck someone of the same sex, period, no matter what race he is or the color his skin is. Intellectually, this isn't the best analogue for a performer, who IS attracted to males, refusing to fuck black males. Not being attracted to a sex =/= not being attracted to a skin color and/or race WITHIN the sex you're attracted to. I got the point of your rhetorical question, but the better question would have simply been: You guys want performers to put aside their personal beliefs to fuck someone, but would you do the same?
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Eco195 Deactivated User
126 Posts 2/12
Posted - May 19 2017 : 11:55PM
I've actually seen others try to make that laughably bad comparison before. Which is like comparing apples to oranges. He should be asking if someone would work with someone of a different shade of skin color that they've never worked with before not a different gender. Also his taking of an extreme position makes it clear he's not serious about accurately discussing the subject. Now if a girl is a neo-nazi or other type of white supremacist I can imagine even the idea of them working with someone not of their "group" would be impossible, and his question would have merit. But since most women aren't in that category it doesn't.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 20 2017 : 12:18AM
In Europe there are examples of white supremacists shooting IR. Serenity is one that comes to mind. Kitty Blair is another. US examples would include Jessica Darlin.
misspornusa, Gore Gore Girl, Snowbunny Sorcerer, and MrMarcus are having what is probably my favorite intellectual debate to geek out on as a black dude. I tend to land more on misspornusa side of the issue (i.e. colorblindness is contrary to human nature and if think you're the special snowflake who is, you're naive), and while I will agree with Sorcerer that he is in fact consistent with academic consensus in the view that colorblindness might have been a thing before European colonization--even though there was limited contact between people of different phenotype and skin color before 1492--the reason I agree more with missporn here is that racism is just one special case of a more general ancient instinct: tribalism. It's inbuilt, it's always been there, and we all have to deal with it at some point in our lives. Incidentally, I think what's really going on with raceplay (my biggest fetish, personally) and those who like it is that our personal tribal instincts are to some extent oriented outward: we are what you call exogamous. Not that we hate or are sexually repulsed by our own race, simply that we are extremely fascinated by what society has conditioned us to think of as exotic and find a thrilling catharsis in engaging with it, sexually and otherwise.
^They shot those scenes before joining and/or converting. The odds of anyone who currently has those beliefs and is currently a part of any group like that, the odds of them having sex with a black person on camera...well, let's just say they're very slim.
Of course , but many others agree with that , it is possible that in over a thousand years of military dominion over many cultures something bad happened , the point is there was no philosophy supporting premeditated cruelty toward any of them , what is especially remarkable is that in over 500 years since when the basis for racism have been developed finding out anything that could support such view there's not a single one coming from the Roman era. If you want one you have to handpick and single out episodes and possibly phrases out of context I mean we have a culture who become the strongest over every aspect of life of its era which was also very inclusive in which such diversity was an important part of its greatness and we seem to not want to follow the example , that's strange Edited by - LCF on 5/20/2017 2:55:34 AM
Thr tribal instinct you're taking about is strong and is meant to "protect" the genes of the tribe from those who don't belong to it ,much like a husband preventing his wife from sleeping around so that he's reasonably certain their sons are actually his so that his genetic line could survive. Someone of very different skin complexion is most clearly not of the tribe. But for "color blindness" I don't think anybody means actual blindness to the color but the importance that such difference might have in a social group. look at the police for example everybody obeys what an officer would tell them , no matter what sex or race such officer belongs to. At a crossing you will obey the signs the police would make to you and cross or turn the way you're shown, nobody would disobey just because the policeman is black . Of course you see he's black but it doesn't matter at all, that's the kind of color blindness I mean Edited by - LCF on 5/20/2017 3:10:45 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 20 2017 : 11:15AM
Except that Kitty Blair was an active NDP member when she shot IR. Serenity worked through 2016 according to IAFD, and was found out by her fellow Nazis in 2012. On Jessica Darlin, the late performer/director David Aaron Clark shed some light (I added emphasis):
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 20 2017 : 12:01PM
I have a question for everyone who insist that performers put aside their personal belief system when it comes to doing or not doing I/R? Do you practice what you preach and have sex with black guys?
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 20 2017 : 12:20PM
Jessica Darlin had her "racial awakening" after exiting the porn industry, so that one kinda does count.
I stand corrected. Thanks for the info, guess I shouldn't be as surprised as I am; I know of ppl with those beliefs doing it behind closed doors, doing it on camera for all to see, well, is actually kind of funny.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 20 2017 : 12:28PM
Ethnocentrism is different, like I posted before, a light-skin Nubian was just as culturally accepted within the tribe as a dark-skin Nubian. The system of racism/white supremacy created a petty system of biological exclusion. The divisions before that were silly but less rigid i.e. language, religion etc.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 20 2017 : 12:34PM
Me too, and I'm glad you said that because it's the sort of thing that no one ever brings up, and I know that I'm not the only one who's known racists who sleep with black men.
Let's not forget Rwanda and Burundi where Tutsi and Hutu tribes extermenitated themseves by the hundreds of thousand if not by the millions solely on racial hate , I have personally heard a Hutu claiming that the Tutsi were an inferior race. Both are dark black Sub-Saharian African Ethnic groups
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 20 2017 : 1:38PM
^^ ^^^^One of the things that I learned from Timothy Longman's Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda is that Christian missionaries greatly contributed to the development of a Hutu-Tutsi dichotomy. Mahmood Mamdani's When Victims Become Killers also has a chapter in which he explores the crucial role of missionaries in racializing Hutu-Tutsi differences. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/20/2017 1:38:52 PM
^ It's a possible cause , but the one I talked to was a Muslim from Senegal and I still can't see the reasoning for the missionaries and therefore the Church to create such hatred , as far as I know they already hated each other , it's not just Rwanda and Burundi similar hatred could be found throughout Africa Hutu and Tutsi are the main Ethnic groups of African humans much like German and Latin Europeans although we never hated each other to that extent we did mutually kill ourselves by the millions
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
^ no I mean race , the Hutu I spoked with considers the Tutsi adifferent inferior race you may say ethnic group but this won't change his view on the matter , he doesn't think they belong to the same group and they're not equals
Chloe Temple Interview
Posted - May 18 2017 : 3:45AM
