^Yeah, Dogfart doesn't, Stall. ^^ Although I know the reasoning behind it, I hate the holdout practice, personally, because it's basically: You know this hot new performer? Well, you'll probably have to wait 2 to 3 years for her to shoot with you, sometimes up to 10+ years, or she may not shoot with you, period. That's not really a selling point for me, at all. And as for as charging more for all of your scenes with black dudes, eh, if there are companies willing to pay you and performers willing to work with you, get what you can.
^ The smart ones (and to be fair, not everyone is smart) aren't holding out for a specific time period so much as a price. You offer up a few grand to most of these newbies (and their agents) for the scene, and there's a lot of them that will say yes. That, in general, is what Blacked has taken advantage of over the past few years to a large amount of success. That much of the audience doesn't actually care if these performers are current stars, future stars, or someone that will be gone in a few months. Just that they fit the type, and that it's their first.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 7 2017 : 6:33PM
^^When Dogfart's policy was brought up earlier in the thread, I think there was some uncertainty about whether or not they were including firsts or just general IR scenes. The practice of holding out for years is dying imho, and good riddance to it.
Man today those "years" are three months at best , most careers of those new starlets don't last a year straight , half a year and they're done. Some stars at Blacked were signed for a 6 months exclusivity, many of those have retired even before their agreement expired , so basically they covered all of their careers and what is there is all the IR you can find from them
Edited by - LCF on 4/8/2017 1:02:30 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 3:00PM
^Holding out on firsts only matters for actual stars, they're the ones who will have huge publicity boosts from a first B/G/anal/IR and have fans buy the scene in droves (and thus a better offer/deal for it)because they had been asking, thirsting for it, teased by it. Again, nothing that the very first comment in this thread didn't already cover. Now nobody cares about "firsts" from your average noname who just started, just like nobody notices if she's dodging anything, she first has to become popular on some level of the porn circus act ladder before people will notice she's dodging the next steps and feel teased by the dodgery. Just like a celeb sextape is meaningless to you if you never heard or saw that celeb before. Of course most agents will just encourage their girls to take whatever jobs come their way rather than give them a chance to try and see if they can play the long game(which might even go against the agent's interests as established stars would be more likely to ditch their old agent). That's why when those "First anal" list threads started I suggested they only mention first anals for girls who had dodged anal for more than 6 or 12months of B/G activity(the average pornstar shelflife) to weed out the non-stars. For instance listing first anals/first B/G / first IR etc for all eastern euro pornstars seems inane given that most of them start off getting DPed by woodman. Those firsts are meaningless when they're also their very first porn scene. And if those threads really are for the benefit of this forum's "firsts" enthusiasts (rather than an OCD compulsion or IAFD-completeness) they should have been accompanied by matching dodger list threads. A girl might have dodged B/G or anal for years but if her first anal is the first time I hear of her I'm not gonna be open-my-wallet-excited for it(and I don't have the racial hangups to care about dick color swap firsts). And this is something you see in the industry too: the firsts get advertised(maybe even over-advertised when you announce firsts by chicks who've only been around for a few months and haven't established themselves on any level) but the dodgery doesn't get advertised, meaning only a girl's hardcore fans will be aware of it. Yet the more you make people aware of a girl's dodgery the more they will be interested in seeing that "first" performance. And knowing that a girl is dodging something would likely get her more fans, at least from those who care about firsts of the category she's dodging. Example: Malena Morgan, I usually don't care for skinny chicks like her, but when I read something about her being infamous for dodging B/G and how there was a shady fetish vid floating around where she jerked a dick off I was interested and started following her(and later her first B/G webcam popped out). Had I first seen her already getting the bangbus treatment I wouldn't have been interested, she'd just be another bony-assed chick getting fucked. Hop on some less reputable porn boards and some of the most popular and long-standing topics are always "Who hasn't done B/G and you wish they did?" and dudes don't just go to those threads to post their favorites/holy grails, they also go there to learn of other dodgers so they can become fans of them and get excited when they do perform their "first"(since there is a high likelihood a pornstar will eventually do it all). Go to the fappening threads and you'll see that dudes are often sad that they don't know the celebs, robbing them of the "celeb sextape" arousal/effect. There is no way to guess which smaller celebs are gonna get their stuff leaked and thus which are worth following for that effect, but it shouldn't be so when it comes to pornstars. You'd expect the producers who invest in firsts to also invest in publicizing/signalboosting a girl's dodgery to make more people interested in seeing her first yet you almost never see any thought given to that. You could have a G/G performer masturbate in the background of a B/G scene or have her lightly touch the dude's chest or even get her face near the dick by munching on some pussy as it gets pummeled to tease first B/G fans, switch dick colors and make it a foursome for IR dodgers, that kind of thing. I remember Karlie Montana having a couple of huge tease scenes where she got real close to dicks in "Porcelain" and some dvd by Vince Voyeur, you hardly see anything like that these days. Can't believe this thread is still going on. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 4/8/2017 4:28:57 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 4:01PM
Blacked has proven otherwise. That an IR scene is a "first" is now a selling point in and of itself. That's why Olivia Austin received a big offer when she was still relatively unknown.
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 4:58PM
^Yeah so big that she felt it was still too early to do it... And how exactly has blacked proved otherwise? Do you think blacked pays the same for a noname's first IR as they do established IR dodgers? Or do you think that the people who care about first IRs care the same about a noname's first IR as they would an established IR dodger's first IR? Do we need another 47 pages? And of course as a producer you always have an interest in throwing extra cash for a first, not only is there a chance a newbie's first is also her last making it extra valuable in the long run but she could always have a few fans interested in it and since you have it you might as well advertise it. It doesn't cost anything to slap a big bold tag on a web scene or a dvd that reads "FIRST!", no matter how meaningless it might be (first IR anal!). I guess you might also be confused by the tons of websites dedicated to a random unknown's first porn like ftvgirls, girlsdoporn, rggb, all the casting sites etc but for the porn viewers the appeal is not the same as that of a known dodger performing her first, the end of a long tease, and for a fan of IR who's never heard of Girl X before, if the first time he sees Girl X is at blacked it won't make a difference to him if that's her first IR scene or her 100th and if she's already shot IR for multiple sites he's not gonna go scrounging around trying to figure out which one was her first, he'll just go with whichever looks best, at most look for the first later when creating a stash/collection since that's at least noteworthy. Pierre Woodman could slap firsts all over his work but the appeal has little in common with Big Wet Asses landing Gianna Michaels or Alexis Texas' first anals. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 4/8/2017 5:29:21 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 5:20PM
That I agree with.That doesn't appear to be true. Actually, a seemingly significant portion of IR consumers seem to be attracted to IR firsts just because they are IR firsts.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 5:26PM
whatsatelephonebill commented on this issue on this very page. It's also been discussed earlier in the thread.That is the specific claim I disagreed with. I certainly haven't argued that Blacked "pays the same for a noname's first IR as they do established IR dodgers" or "that the people who care about first IRs care the same about a noname's first IR as they would an established IR dodger' first IR." I am saying that somebody, apparently many somebodies, care "about 'firsts' from your average noname who just started." That isn't to say that they care as much as they do about a bigger name's first IR. That would be a separate claim. Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/8/2017 5:30:23 PM
Those "big stars" holding back are those of old , very few "stars" still exist and with "star" I mean an actress able to boost the sales of a company for a long time and maybe even rocket the sales of an IR scene or movie from them , but in these days those contract stars are almost as rare as a Panda bear. The big payday of today porn comes with "firsts" and those firsts are more profitable when a girl is new to the Industry so that it looks like even more remarkable as a first , especially as opposed to the "holding back" of old actually you'll get a big payday if you do IR as soon as you get an offer from some big IR site especially if you even get paid for not doing it anywhere else Edited by - LCF on 4/8/2017 5:31:08 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 5:54PM
The way I see it the people who'd care about an IR dodger's first IR would consist of a subset of IR fans together with a set of people who otherwise wouldn't be IR fans(Alexis Texas' IR dodgery made TMZ). The people who would even care about a newbie's/any first IR are a subset of the IR fans who'd care about an IR dodger's first IR, themselves a subset of IR fans. You're saying this subset of a subset of IR fans is seemingly significant but it sounds pretty fucking niche to me. Like those who'd use fappening leaks of celebrities they've never heard of. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:02PM
I been reading this thread, and I see someone ask did Nikki Benz got a bigger paid for her showcase she did you Jules Jordan, well she address the rumor. But sometimes not it's not true at all, I was watching the Lisa Ann video on YouTube the other day on racist in porn. At the end of the video she mention a girls who she know who just did her 1st IR, and the girls ask her how much more should I charges for interracial, Lisa respond back on depend how racist you are. Now I wonder which girls she was taking too on the video who to charges more for IR, well I did some I did some searching and I found this tweet, and the girls she was taking about is Nikki Benz who she doesn't get along with ask her about doing IR before she retired [Tweet is no longer available] Now she called Lisa Ann a racist, how can Lisa Ann be a racist when she did many scenes with black men and have made some IR movies in her own line. Now Nikki waited a decade to do IR, and is still getting much crap from these so called IR fans after a decade. Lisa Ann for many year has spoken about racism in the industry and other white girlswho do black men also address this. Now I was shocked when James Dean address it, and he called it right on the bat. We don't get many white guys to speak out on racism because it doesn't affect them because they work with all the girls of all color and not many black guys. Beside Deen which other white guys in porn address racism in porn. BTW here is the video, is there anyway to post YouTube video on here, I just paste it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F16-5OKQElw&t=53s Edited by - Stall on 4/8/2017 6:17:40 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:12PM
To a producer it might as well be the same, it either is arousing and rare/unique enough to get the consumer to open his wallet or it isn't. A DVD unit or webscene of Alexis Texas' first IR isn't going to retail for much more than that noname's first IR DVD so it comes down to target market size. So where you get that there are many such fans of noname first IRs? What are they are buying? ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:27PM
^^^Nikki Benz spoke about her showcase and IR earlier on this thread. Deen was also discussed at some point, but I'm too lazy to look for that. EDIT: Keep in mind that Nikki and Lisa hate each other. Anything they have to say about each other and any claims they make about one another should be looked at in that light. Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/8/2017 6:31:47 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:29PM
^^^Supply and demand. The IR firsts of newbies are obviously being produced for a consumer base.
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:37PM
I'm suggesting it was a bad example when the very person you're quoting is saying that she felt the offer she got for first IR at the 4 month mark wasn't enough and that it was too early in her career. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:45PM
I used to work at a adult video store a few years ago, and a big name with a 1st IR does sell. When Dani Daniel Blacked.com showcase came out a few years ago many consumer brought it. As a matter fact it outsold the Nikki Benz IR showcase, and many had request the Dani Daniel one. I never seen the Dani Daniel showcase to see what is all the hype about, and I saw the movie and it was pretty good, same with the Nikki Benz one. What is the different between Dani Daniel showcase and the Nikki Benz showcase, each are IR but Nikki didn't do IR for a decade, and Dani been in the porn for 3 years but didn't do B/G at the begin of her career. Now here something I don't see when Samantha Saint IR showcase came out the same year and it sold pretty. I was shocked about it because it's an Wicked Picture movie and those movies don't sell that much because all of those scene are condom, and Wicked doesn't shoot IR movies that offend. Now if Alexis Texas does her 1st IR showcase you know folks will be buying it because she is a big name, now a no name who is new and fans don't know who she is will never buy it. A big name who is well known will sell a box cover, but those Blacked.com DVD do sell pretty well and those girls are not well known but the brand is big because the brand sell. Edited by - Stall on 4/8/2017 6:51:11 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 6:52PM
Shifting goalposts now? You said there were significant amounts of dudes buying noname first IR scenes precisely because they were "noname first IR", where are these scenes? Show me, because I wanna see how you figure that they are being bought by dudes who fetishize IR firsts by nonames rather than regular IR fans who just want to see IR with new girls, just like fans of any other of porn category who want fresh meat.I already told you before it costs nothing to add a "First" tag to a scene (and it doesn't even have to be true) and what do you even mean by pay up? You think nonames are getting paid fortunes for their scenes(which will obviously be their firsts since as nonames they haven't shot shit). So for you the proof that a lot of people are fetishizing noname firsts is that people are shooting content with nonames? Are brazzers fans fetishizing "milf tenths!"? This is why I said you might also be confused by newbie pornsites since you could attribute to a "first" fetish what is often just a desire to see fresh faces. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 4/8/2017 7:05:08 PM
^^ Because Blacked is, arguably, one of the two or three best selling brands in porn right now, and they basically built their entire base (and are still building said base) on getting women that have mostly been around for very little time to shoot IR scenes with them. They punctuate this with grabbing IR scenes from long time holdouts (Brandi Love, Jynx Maze as obvious examples), but the majority of their scenes are first/early IR scenes of women who haven't been in the industry long enough to become stars (some of them have become stars after the fact, though, like Abella Danger). That tells me that there's a pretty large fanbase that is just looking for first IR scenes of any performer as long as they fit a certain type. Edit: And to use specific scenes as examples, while it definitely cost Blacked more to shoot Jynx Maze's first IR than it did for them to shoot Charity Crawford's first IR, Marica Hase's Blacked scene more than likely cost even less than that. Those newbies don't get big huge star first money, but they still get paid more than you would typically pay a performer for a non-first IR scene. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 4/8/2017 7:37:56 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 7:20PM
Again, you wrote: "Nobody cares about 'firsts' from your average noname who just started." You did not qualify this in any way. Now apparently you're making a distinction between "nonames" and new performers in order to salvage your initial hyperbolic statement. In fact, the overwhelming majority of new performers are "nonames." As I already said, Blacked has shown us that noname newbies shooting their "first IR" generates interest. Enough interest to keep the site successful. Enough interest to sell dvds.
If you don't like that we are taking about when it's best if you leave this thread because it seem you are cause more trouble, just saying Edited by - Stall on 4/8/2017 7:41:55 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 7:43PM
^^Ah, I see.
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 8:38PM
Looking at their website and DVD covers, to me their bread&butter seems to be the big black man+little white girl theme while the tastefulness and promotional photography that's on the level of japanese DVD covers seems to be what sets it apart from the competition. The promotional material makes it look completely different from your typical IR scene that's really just a dick color palette swap. Not sure if that translates into the scenes themselves(not a fan of tushy's) but that usually doesn't matter as much to sales as the marketing material itself. Looking at the DVD covers I also see a bunch of first IRs by established pornstars, more of them than nonames. So given the uniquely high quality photography that accentuates the black/white skin contrast, the big black man/little white girl taboo theme, the many established IR dodger's first IRs, the fact that it's part of a larger network of sites, the fact that the consumers typically don't give a damn about signalling noname firsts, why assume that the noname first IRs are a big draw rather than first IRs simply being something that's inherent to shooting young white girl IR(and might as well be advertised)? Did they conduct user polls that clearly showed they wanted newbie first IRs rather than just IR with young white girls/newbies? If I'm having luck selling water to thirsty people in the desert I'm not gonna attribute my success to the color of bottles I'm selling. Are there noticeable sales disparities between blacked DVDs with a black man and young white girl on the cover with her first advertised compared to a similar blacked DVD with no first advertised?Given that you agree that newbie and noname are pretty much interchangeable I don't see how you could think I was making a distinction. Blacked tries to publicize its newbie firsts, others studios have also publicized meaningless firsts to little effect(her first BBBG!), the fact that something is advertised on the cover doesn't prove that it's meaningful to the audience, it just proves the producers hope it helps. Again where do you get that the blacked noname firsts are a significant draw compared to it just being an IR scene wih a pretty young white girl with that kind of photography, or compared to a first IR scene by a performer who had long avoided it? ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 4/8/2017 9:04:12 PM
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 8:44PM
Maybe Nikki was lying to you all because most porn star will lie a few times just trying to she doesn't want people to think she is a racist or maybe Lisa Ann is lying and is a racist in real life. I don't know who believe but Lisa Ann is not a racist but we don't know these performers personal life outside of porn. You maybe even have girls who do IR but that are racist off film, just because they do in on film doesn't mean they are racist. Now let see you so called IR fans will support those girls. Edited by - Stall on 4/8/2017 8:48:13 PM
"You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 9:10PM
Uh, I've posted here, too. Seems like that "troubles" you
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 9:32PM
I seen your post on here and you were arguing with a another person on this thread which the Mods has to break it because you two can't agree on which turn into a fight.
They don't have many established dodgers first IR, unless you're description of dodger is someone who doesn't do it within the first year (which I wouldn't be surprised if it was). They do have some, but they only get one of those every couple months or so. The majority of first IRs on the site are from women that haven't been around for more than a year (and many of them haven't been around more than six months). If we look at, say the past 9 months, we have 3 firsts from "established dodgers" (Eva Lovia in February, Jynx Maze in December, Karina White last August). That's compared to 10 firsts from new performers that had been around less than a year (Kylie Page, Ally Tate, Arya Fae, Raylin Ann, Lena Paul, Kendra Sunderland, Kimberly Moss, Lily Jordan, Lily Ford, Charity Crawford). This has been the case since the site started (the first set of scenes included first IRs for Keisha Grey and Jillian Janson, who are stars now but who hadn't been in the industry very long at that point). Dani Daniels was the first time they'd gotten a long-time holdout, and that didn't happen until September 2014 (the site launched in or around May 2014, going by when its thread was created). Like I said, they have to fit a type (young, white, usually slim (with an exception usually made for exceptional breasts), natural, minimally tattooed), but as long as they do, the scenes have generally done well no matter if they're new names or "nonames" or big stars. One of Blacked's DVD series is literally called "My First Interracial". There's 8 volumes of it so far. The covers are, in order, Keisha Grey, Addison Belgium (who I think may be been a one and done), Sabrina Banks, Cadence Lux, Sydney Cole, Naomi Woods, Marley Brinx, and Lily Rader. At best, at the time the scenes were shot, Marley and Cadence may have been the only ones who had been around more than a year at that point. Oh, and this is only one site's popularity/sales data, but on Hotmovies, the top 5 selling DVDs have on their covers. 1.) Lana Rhodes and Leah Gotti (in a non-first) 2.) Marley Brink (in a first, MFI Vol. 7) 3) Brandi Love (in a first) 4.) Riley Reid (an IR anal movie, listed as exclusive and not first because her actual first IR anal was for her Tushy showcase) 5.) Lily Rader (in a first, MFI Vol 8) You have to go down to #7 before you see a movie that doesn't have a group scene or a first advertised on the cover (a creampie movie with Elsa Jean on the cover). Without comprehensive sales data (which neither of us will ever see), I'd say that yes, there's a high possibility that their new performer firsts sell just as well, if not better, than their young performer non-firsts. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 4/8/2017 10:41:00 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 8 2017 : 11:32PM
^^^^^I think I'll mention what you wrote again: "Nobody cares about 'firsts' from your average noname who just started." You made that statement without qualification. Do you still believe it? It seems that now you are saying that consumers do care about scenes that are IR firsts, but only because they are well shot and feature attractive young women and not because they are firsts.
I've seen multiple examples of stars dragging their feet on IR to get an increased payday (and subsequently increasing their B/G rate) but I'm not familiar with stars who have set one continuing rate for IR and a different one for "standard" B/G. The porn stars I've seen on Twitter and such will debate the merits of using IR to increase their overall rates, but not so much of the latter. I recall Lexington Steele and Allison Moore discussing such a practice on his radio show once, so I'm assuming it happens not infrequently. I'm guessing because the latter is more harshly received, fewer are willing to admit to it. But I'm curious of there are any that publicly talk about it.
Stall wrote:Maybe Nikki was lying to you all because most porn star will lie a few times just trying to she doesn't want people to think she is a racist or maybe Lisa Ann is lying and is a racist in real life. I don't know who believe but Lisa Ann is not a racist but we don't know these performers personal life outside of porn. You maybe even have girls who do IR but that are racist off film, just because they do in on film doesn't mean they are racist. Now let see you so called IR fans will support those girls. Edited by - Stall on 4/8/2017 8:48:13 PM
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While I don't believe Lisa is racist , it is known she did date some black men in private life after all , it looks like you're more interested in taking down Nikki than anything else , even if she sold less than Dani Daniels how does this have anything to do with Lisa Ann's problems with Nikki? Also as already pointed out the two of them hate each other so nothing they say about each other can be relied upon and this goes for everybody involved there. As for Nikki and her showcase while she have been paid a lot for it as a whole, you should consider it was a 5 scenes movie with anal , slight BDSM and DP involved , if you consider her rates for each scene and feature involved yiu will find out she actually lowered her rates in order to do it
Not necessarily. Sometimes these girls want to work with a black dude but depending on what companies they shoot for and depending on what scenes are called for, not everyone gets the same opportunities and there can only be so much IR produced in a given year, and there's like 10 times as many white performers as black it seems. You do the math and it means most girls won't even get the opportunity to shoot an IR scene for many months if not a year just based on the odds, and then there's how much each female individually is valued. But what really calls your presumption into question is that the producers don't simply pay extra for a girl to do IR. They're buying exclusive rights so they can market it as her 1st IR, and sometimes they pay extra to ensure that she's on a limited period of exclusivity. Blacked does this a lot more, but it was a practice before them as well. It really doesn't mean a girl would never do it otherwise. They hardly get much extra for it anyway. Yeah some rare exceptions can get an extra grand or two, but oftentimes it is just as little as a 10% bonus, if that. And that's just for one scene, they can't keep demanding that same bonus on every IR scene. So it's not even that substantial. If anything, most girls probably don't even get to bargain for enough. I bet there actually is more value to it than they realize, which is why we keep hearing about agents pressuring them to hold out, in the rare instances that is the case. What you're saying is these girls are so racist and discriminatory, and yet a couple hundred extra bucks 1 time and suddenly they'll do it. That's utterly retarded. If a chick really doesn't want to fuck black guys, then she's not going to. EVER. And she doesn't have to. A piddling 10% bonus isn't going to sway anyone who truly hates black people. Think about it. If the average porn chick does 10 scenes in a month, making 1000 per scene (I think that may be a low average), that's 10,000 grand in a month. So she can make 6 figures in a year easy. You REALLY think if she doesn't want to ever fuck black dude, that a couple hundred bucks is going to make it happen? When she makes 100,000 per year? Even if you offered one of the craziest bonuses we've heard of, like 4 grand for Riley Reid's 1st IR, that's not going to persuade anybody set against working with a black partner. They can easily pass on that. And I hardly think Riley Reid was bein "Racist" when she took her bonus pay either. She was probably going to do IR either way, with or without extra incentives. It just so happened though that her agent negotiated for 1st time exclusivity to Jules Jordan to market in one of those Mandingo joints. So seriously, why the fuck not get an extra 4 g's for something she probably wanted to do anyway? Yall need to learn to not make the perfect the enemy of the good. Is it a perfect system? Of course not. No system is perfect. But does that mean it's the enemy of the good, i.e. a net detriment? Hell no. We have no reason to believe Riley is racist. She went on to do Mandingo 3 times. She obviously liked working with him, and did a lot of IR later too. Did it cost extra? No.No. This is what you're getting twisted. When we say they are valued *more* we mean more than just a standard vanilla B/G. Not more than the girl. No regular dude is gonna be worth more than the regular female. Only perhaps the most high demand male talent could be worth more than the bargain bin females who nobody is checking for anyway. But it's been said by multiple producers/directors that black male talent do get paid more than the average male talent overall, which is mainly white guys. You seem to be hung up on the fact that the guys don't get extra pay for a female's 1st IR. But why would they? It's not the guy's 1st. Nobody is checking for guy's firsts, except maybe in the gay market.Except it is nothing like that, and that tells us you haven't been following this issue closely. Nobody is getting 5x the regular rate for doing IR. And a racist would still most likely pass. If they really don't want to do it, they don't have to. You need to start using real numbers to make a more compelling case. Only if a chick was offered something crazy like 10 grand extra... actually, nah, even then I see most porn stars who are racist passing on that. They can make that back in just a few scenes. You'd really have to pay someone like 20,000 grand. Something they'd have to work a couple months or so for in porn. Maybe that would persuade a racist. But nobody in the world is gonna pay that much.
^ Melvyn, I generally agree with you, but I have to call you out on your numbers being way off here. Most performers, for their first IR scenes, I'm fairly sure get well more than a 10% bonus (which would be a $100 bonus at a 1K scene rate, which isn't on the low end, if anything it might a little on the high end for new performers). And Riley getting 4K isn't anywhere near the craziest sum I've heard for a performer's first IR. We have, in this thread, a post about Olivia Austin getting offered 4K for hers after having only been in the industry a few months. Someone like, say, Mia Malkova (who actually has expressed some interest in shooting it)? If there are offers out there, they're bound to be much higher than that.
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 11 2017 : 10:47PM
So what are the black male performers point of view on this, have any of them ever read this thread. I seen Nikki Benz and other performers on this topic as well Edited by - Stall on 4/11/2017 10:51:49 PM
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 11 2017 : 11:02PM
While I don't believe Lisa is racist , it is known she did date some black men in private life after all , it looks like you're more interested in taking down Nikki than anything else , even if she sold less than Dani Daniels how does this have anything to do with Lisa Ann's problems with Nikki? Also as already pointed out the two of them hate each other so nothing they say about each other can be relied upon and this goes for everybody involved there. As for Nikki and her showcase while she have been paid a lot for it as a whole, you should consider it was a 5 scenes movie with anal , slight BDSM and DP involved , if you consider her rates for each scene and feature involved yiu will find out she actually lowered her rates in order to do it
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You don't know that, maybe Nikki Benz ask Lisa Ann after her 1st IR showcase how much more money to do IR scenes if you watch the whole YouTube video. So Nikki had a change of heart.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Apr 11 2017 : 11:39PM
We've discussed the views of some black male performers on this thread (most recently Prince Yashua), but I don't think any of them have ever stopped by.
Tee Reel is still a performer(castingcouch-hd) and he is also an agent: [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available]
Ok, well, if they get bonuses substantially higher, so what? It just tells us that IR has a lot of value and producers want to have rights to tout landing a popular star's 1st IR. That's what this comes down to. When people decry discrimination in the market, this invokes our fundamental anti-discrimination laws and values which have been established to prevent UNFAIR discrimination based on some kind of hate or devaluation rooted in racism or sexism. This is NOT the same thing as discriminating that something has MORE value than the standard commodity or service. Like I said before, this whole argument becomes legitimate if the case was that females are being offered LESS to work with black men than they would be offered to work with white men. THAT would be truly detrimental to black talent because then it incentives females to avoid working with black talent, which means less opportunities for those guys. THAT would be putting them out of work. What we have here is the opposite. We have extra incentive for females to do IR. This means MORE opportunities, because it is inextricably linked to and correlates with a higher value on IR scenes, which is a direct result of higher DEMAND. The more something is demanded, the more value it has. The only question is, how do these black male talent get a piece of that, or are they even really entitled to it? Unless all black males unionized, they can't really negotiate for any more than they are already getting - which has been pointed out repeatedly is already more than the average male performer. Even guys who don't really command banner titles like Rico Strong or Rob Piper are getting paid more than most white guys. So the argument is there that they already are being well compensated as it is. So again, if it is such a crime, then where is the victim? When investigating shady matters of business, we always have to ask "Cui bono?" Who benefits? In this case, it would seem quite clear that pretty much all parties involved benefit. Producers benefit for investing in the procurement of IR. White females are capitalizing on their value as dictated by the free market driven by consumers who clamor for 1st time IR. And black guys stay eating good cuz it keeps them getting work. So when debating this allegedly illicit practice, we also should ask, where is the victim? If everyone is benefiting, it really seems to be a matter of splitting hairs over who benefits the most. It should come as no surprise that females will benefit the most since the market is still mostly driven by male consumers, but it should be worth noting that black guys are hardly near the bottom of the totem pole. On average, they seem to be at the top as far as male talent go. I will say again, it does pose an interesting scheme which may yet result in an even more interesting corollary, one which could really shift the paradigm. I've speculated what that might be before, but the chances are quite slim it would ever come to fruition. Imagine a talent agency, or think of it as a union, that can claim a monopoly on all the prominent black male performers. That would really throw a wrench into the machine. But it could also backfire, and no plan is foolproof. I just think it would be really interesting if instead of wooing new starlets with bonus pay for rights to shoot their debut IR, producers would have to spend even more to get the most popular black male performers. It certainly cannot be denied that there is demand there. I just think it cannot compare to the demand for females, which is why the system is the way it is. But still, one of the basics of economics is scarcity's relationship with demand. So, which is more scarce? White females, or black males? Obviously the latter is on the order of several times more scarce. And while guys in general in porn will never be as valued as women in any of our lifetimes, the bm/wf IR genre remains increasingly popular. And how can you make bm/wf IR without black males?
Nikki had a change of heart after talking to Lisa Ann? LOL
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 12 2017 : 5:01PM
Maybe if you watch the Lisa Ann YouTube video at the 3:20 marked Lisa talk about a girls who is was doing her 1st IR, and the girls ask her after my first IR movie how much more should charge per scene for IR, and Lisa told her it depend how racist you are. So I think this took place before Nikki Benz was shooting her IR showcase. So after Lisa Ann told her the about it Nikki must had a change of heart meaning she just change her mind not to charges more for IR just do those scene for regular paid. Here the link https://youtu.be/F16-5OKQElw
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Apr 13 2017 : 7:21PM
Since this was on her thread and the Blacked.com thread I will post it here https://forum.adultdvdtalk.com/blackedcom-official-thread So how much money did they paid her?
Introducing Kalani Luana
Posted - Apr 7 2017 : 1:07PM
