I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 26 2017 : 1:05AM
^^^The first question that came to my mind when I read Prince's story about shooting a b/g with a white person who was getting paid $3,500 for the scene was: If Prince could have received the same amount, would he have said no? Edited by - misspornUSA on 2/26/2017 1:06:57 AM
^^ Yeah, thanks partially to Blacked, the offers that women are getting in their first year or two are so large that we're seeing agents take them instead of waiting years for a bigger offer to show up (or until the bookings have slowed down). Though now that I think about it, another part of that is probably agents realizing that even the girls they think might become stars aren't sticking around for long, so they're realizing that their better off taking their chunk of a big payday now as opposed to hoping she's still around for a huge payday later. ^ I think the biggest reason the male performer can't get that check for those "first" paydays is because, for the context of that scene, most people see them as interchangeable. I am generally of the opinion that if a performer knows that a scene is going to make more money for the producer, it's not wrong for them to ask said producer to pay more to shoot said scenes, and most firsts fall into that, including IR. But when it comes to the male talent in the same scenes, if he asks for a bigger payday for the same scene, he's much more replaceable than the female talent, and the producer can more easily just say no and move to the next guy down the line. I mean, I'd like to think the same thing would probably happen if Manuel asked for above and beyond his typical b/g rate to shoot a female performer's first anal scene.
we the people in order to form a more perfect union... 518 Posts 12/03
Posted - Feb 26 2017 : 3:47AM
^^^ I kinda have to disagree with you there. yes the existence of BLACKED.com has improved the IR genre as a whole but it is not the cure all for porn's race problem. as long as racism exist and "the porn business model" is still practiced in its current form holding out on black men will continue for the foreseeable future. remember over half of the women in porn do not do scenes with black guys and a lot of them never will.
Eh...This hasn't changed my opinion of whole "waiting to shot IR for a bigger payday" one bit. It's business as usual. Different girls get paid different rates because they bring different value to the table, different sex acts pay more because they bring different value, different studios pay more because they bring different value. These girls are free agents who carve out the best deal they can. Porn isn't working at the Post Office or an assembly line where everyone is paid the same. It's bad enough that certain fans can't wrap their heads around that but it's particularly sad that someone in the business can acknowledge that. If that $3500 porngirl was getting paid that much then surely the people paying her thought she was worth it based on her work and fanbase to make it that price. I'm thinking less and less of Prince when he talks about this stuff. Before I was him complaining about black women who choose not to do scenes with black men. He claimed he wasn't going to do any scenes with a women who made that choice. Was that proclamation a big deal to any of those women from a guy who gets his own series to star in and almost always (if not always) only perform with white women in them? If he truly cared about "our black women" as he called them then you'd think throw some more work their way. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I just don't remember seeing Prince working with black women when he stars in a series. Perhaps it's stuff I haven't seen? As far as him being upset about the $3500 girl...He seems only upset about the money and seems to have an odd set of double standards. He was probably more than happy to be a white girl's first IR who waited but...has a problem being a black girl's first black on black who waited. (?!). He was apparently okay with the $3500 girl until he found out how much she was getting paid. Yet he says this girl is a big deal in the porn world. Why would he think a big pornstar would be getting the same as most other girls to do an IR scene when IR is a hot commodity right now? If Prince had been offered more for the scene would he have turned it down? The girl has built a fanbase and probably worked hard and smart to be in the position she's in. Should her hard work result in an average wage for something that will make other people a lot more money? If we go with that type of thinking and that everyone's equal then Jules Jordan and other studios shouldn't give Prince his own series to star in and direct because everyone and everything should be equal. Those studios should give some of those series to Mo or Jon Jon since everyone should be treated and seen as equals and talent, fanbase and selling power doesn't mean anything. Lastly, I still can't get over how at this point in time people are still seeing black performers as victims in all this. IR is a major deal in porn now and some people are still choosing to spin it as "She's charging more because she sees black men as an undesirable thing". Nonsense. She's charging more because IR is big in porn right now and there's money to be made from it's popularity. Yeah, there are some girls who don't care to have sex with a black guy but I think most of them don't care that much and are mostly influenced by outside sources for their decision to not do it or hold off. In short, the world of porn is just a business and the players in the game are all just trying to do what they think is best for them short and long term. People getting their feelings hurt over other people's business decisions while thinking their own choices are okay is just a waste of time.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 26 2017 : 11:19AM
I don't view Blacked as a "cure all", but it's certainly affected the porn business model of waiting years to shoot IR. That doesn't mean that everyone now enters porn with IR on their ticket, but a lot of performers don't stick around and perform any firsts at all. For performers that do stay for awhile, IR within the first two years, often within the first year, has become common.
^ They don't pay the usual standard though, if you mean that there's is no more need to wait to get a big payday since blacked jumped in, then it's true
I think porn has gone through an evolution of paying girls more for IR. Years ago the purpose of paying girls more for IR was to coax a girl who may have been holding off IR until their career needed a boost or for the girls who had no intention to do IR for whatever reason. When others found out about this some took advantage of it and let it be known that they'd do IR for the right price. As this continued paying more for IR became more common and as IR became more popular things switched from it being a thing to get girls who didn't plan to do IR into IR being the popular thing that a girl can make lots of money from. All through this evolution some agents views have changed on what's best for their talent but throughout this their goal has always been to maximize their girl's earning potential. At one point the thinking was doing IR or doing it too early would hurt their earning power but now it's a cash cow that can be exploited. Everyone is simply out to make as much as they can in a business that's making less overall and where most girls have a short shelf life. I believe the same sort of business mentality can be seen with girls doing anal.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 26 2017 : 10:51PM
Bingo, I'm glad he brought this up. I've said it once and I'll say it again-when it comes to the controversey of IR, nobody has a more legitimate gripe concerning the practice than Black/Asian/Latin female performers. Every white girl in the biz is afforded this added financial incentive to perform with a black man (i.e. male performer of a different race) that a non-white girl is not. Not only is there no added financial incentive for a minority woman to perform with a male counterpart of a different race, but they essentially have no choice but to work with white guys from the start of their careers because the industry all but demands it, or else they get no bookings (work) at all. And to reiterate a point made by Draxxx above, it is a bit ridiculous that we continue to lament how the black men in the biz are being wronged, nevermind the fact (seemingly) that they're making a killing when it comes to bookings now as this IR bonanza continues.
Latin and Asian female performers can certainly hold out and capitalize on their firsts with black male talent if they so chose; it's not limited to white female performers.
I'm going to ask you a simple, honest, question: Who do you think gets booked more, Manuel or Prince? Mandingo or Mick? Lex shoots more for himself than anyone else, so I'll leave him out of this discussion. Hell, if you want to go a step below that, Isiah Maxwell or Johnny Castle? Moe Johnson or Jessy Jones? Rob Piper or Tyler Nixon? Rico Strong or Chad White? Black men are not "making a killing" here, and the number of non-IR bookings still well exceeds the number of IR bookings (as it should, if I'm being fairly honest), and most high end white male talent still shoots more scenes than high end black male talent.
All girls get heat that don't do IR if they are popular enough. Even the black girls get heat that have avoided black guys like Jezabel Vessir and Anya Ivy. Just ask asa akira was she called racist before doing ir. Ask Luna Star. Ask Tera Patrick. The list goes on and on. And yeah all non black girls can get paid more to do scenes with black guys. Asa got a fat check for first IR, same goes for luna star, Jynx Maze got a huge check from blacked and Eva Lovia. White girls are just more popular and it's more of them in the industry so they will get called out the most. I find it funny people are saying blacked is getting rid of girls taking forever to do scenes with black guys. I just named a few like jynx Maze, Eva, and Peta Jensen who got paid big time for first IR after years. They practice the paying of long term dodgers as well. Sure Brett got paid to. I also suspect Cassidy banks and Natalia Starr, among others will also get a huge paycheck from blacked before the year is over. If they reach a little more deeper in the pockets gracie glam and rachel starr have said they will do it for the right amount. No matter how "classy" IR is shot girls still will avoid and only do it for a big money deal. I see so many girls on twitter waiting around just to shoot for blacked and get a money deal. It seems so many of these blacked girls shoot very little IR in the end making no impact on the genre. I just don't see how paying girls more to do IR is a good thing. I think it is a bad thing. Porn is losing money but yet they can afford to pay girls 3, 4, 5 or more times the normal rate. Sounds like that budget will be hurt in the end. I support fresh IR girls and IR vets who shoot on a regular basis. These girls are what keep IR going strong.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 27 2017 : 6:21PM
I'm talking about the pornstars who are entering the industry now, in the Blacked era. Pornstars who were already waiting before Blacked's success aren't really relevant. The game hadn't changed when they decided to wait, and it's entirely possible that they wouldn't have waited so long had they entered the industry in the Blacked era.
Veronica Rodriguez, too. And to the bolded, yep, even ebony performer Sarah Banks was attempting to get a big 'first' with a black guy(citing that non-black females are able to do it) but unfortunately I don't believe she received the offers she was looking for; her scene with Nat for Wicked's "Ethnicity" isn't advertised as a first.
^^ If we're going to be 100% honest here, the game never changed. The timeline just accelerated. Women are now getting offers 3-6 months into their careers that they used to have to wait 2-3 years into their careers to get. What Lansky actually did was show that you didn't need the performer to already be a superstar at the time to make paying for her first IR a worthwhile proposition (which is basically the era that I would say Jules ushered in in the early 2000s). He showed that you could make money basically shooting every "up and coming" starlet you could get your hands on, and it didn't really matter if they ended up as stars (Keisha Grey, Jillian Janson) or were basically barely heard from in the industry afterward (and there's a few of those from the first few months of Blacked as well). Now that I think about it, it's basically turned first interracial scenes into a speculative market where you're basically hoping that you end up with the first IR of the next big thing, and as long as you shoot it competently you'll still end up with a dedicated IR fanbase. The reason Blacked has ended up better than all of its clones in the market is because, quite frankly, Lansky is a better director than nearly all of the copycats out there (the only exception, IMO, being Mason and DarkX).
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 28 2017 : 12:44AM
Okay, still, the growth in popularity of IR has certainly benefited them; the more IR sites and scenes, the more work they're getting.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 28 2017 : 12:50AM
Well yeah, black-on-black (or Asian girl/black guy and Latina/black guy) doesn't have the same consumer appeal as white girl/black guy. Even if some really popular girls, like Jynx Maze and Eva Lovia, can "cash in" on their first scene with a black guy, I don't think that the average black/Asian/Latin girl can cash in on their first scene with a black guy like the average white girl can.
^^ I'd argue that for most of the high level black performers, all this means is maybe a few more scenes per month. Something they'd be thankful for, of course, but not a huge bump in total earnings. If I really get down to it, the biggest beneficiaries are the black male performers on that are coming up from the "less established sites". Before this increase, your most known black male performers (i.e the ones I've mentioned and those in their class) basically were enough to fill the majority of the bookings out there in terms of mainstream companies shooting IR. This increase in IR scenes has also meant that sites are out there trying to find new black male performers to shoot with, and the guys on sites like Brothalovers are getting a chance to shoot with mainstream companies and prove their worth where as maybe in the pre-Blacked era they don't really get that chance.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 28 2017 : 1:40AM
This is just a minor issue of semantics, but if performers are getting offers earlier that's literally a change in the game. 2-3 years is not the same as 3-6 months.
^ not really they still wait for the big payday , the only difference is that such payday comes early , also there are very few new big names worth that kind of money out there , their careers have shortened a lot , their waiting could only last a few months before they go , and that is the perceived "not waiting" of the newer stars. That and the fact that today mixed couples are fairly common thus the stars themselves have no problems with it
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 28 2017 : 2:21PM
^When you wrote "the only difference" you were acknowledging the fact that a change took place. Waiting shorter periods is not the same as waiting longer periods. It is different. A change has occurred.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 28 2017 : 2:31PM
Personally I'd rank that pretty low in terms of importance. A pornstar's choice to shoot or not to shoot with black men for money as part of her job doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not she's interested in actually dating black men. So I'd be surprised if many pornstars are thinking about the existence of interracial couples when they decide to make themselves available for IR.
I think another factor was that there was simply a lot more work years ago and perhaps a big payday didn't mean as much for a girl who could work most days of the month if she chose to. An extra $1000-$2000 for a scene might be tempting but not seem like that big a deal when you can make that by simply working an extra day or two. So back then with plenty of work to be had the incentive to dive into IR wasn't as great. So IR was still something to keep on the back burner if the work started to slow. Also with the studios doing so much better back then they didn't have to go out of their way to come up with something to grab attention like they do now when sales are down like making a big deal about getting a girl's first IR or locking a girl into a contract to make it exclusive. Most every company was doing well and the need just wasn't as strong. Plus, IR just simply wasn't the big deal then as it is now. For some it was but now much more people are on that bandwagon.I think that does play a part. As time goes on interracial couples and dating doesn't have the same stigma it had before so there are less girls who have an issue with it and that also translates to more family members and boyfriends not having such a negative view of it. So I would imagine there's far less family/husband/boyfriend of threats of disowning a girl who does it. Then, from the audience POV because it's more acceptable it's translated into higher sales and I think as more people see it as good sex and the stereotypical aspects don't do as well because that was speaking more to a niche audience who saw IR as more of a fetish and wanted to see the players in specific roles.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 28 2017 : 10:28PM
^We haven't yet seen a traditional IR site that's at or near Blacked on an aesthetic level. In light of that, I'd be hesitant to conclude that sites like Dogfart haven't done as well as glamcore IR simply due to the way they depict IR.
But we have seen less of the over the top stereotypical IR in mainstream. It's still there but not the way it was years and it's been toned down. We see (as far as I can tell) less the "n" word being tossed out, titles with names like BLACKZILLA, and variations on the "N" word in the titles. The interracial aspect is still played up but in a less demeaning way. And although some people don't/won't see it, that also has some impact on some girls finally doing IR. For some girls it's really not that appealing to be in a movie with the title BLACKZILLA or "_____ HAS A NEGRO PROBLEM" or "CAUGHT MY WIFE WITH A NEGRO". That type of stuff may still exist but it's mostly niche sites not so much mainstream porn. So yeah, most studios can't match BLACKED in glamour and class but the negative stereotypical IR stuff has been softened or is fading away.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 1 2017 : 11:02AM
^There are still complaints about IR titles being provocative, and my understanding is that performers usually don't know how the movies they shoot for will be titled. As for the actual content of the scene, what you describe as "negative stereotypical IR stuff" wasn't the only option for performers before the rise of glamcore IR. LCF has repeatedly provided evidence for that in the past by listing directors/sites/performers. The silly "I don't want to say 'nigger' or be called a 'white bitch'" excuse that some performers liked to give was misleading. So Greg Lansky entered an atmosphere in which hard raceplay was already not the only game in town and he raised the standard of aesthetic beauty in IR.
I have seen several harassed for it. Abby Lee Brazil, Diamond Kitty, Kalina Ryu, and Yurizan Beltran to name a few. None of them respond so there isn't any negative feelings toward them I think. They also don't have comments that can be used against them on record as far as I know. The only one I have seen respond is Veronica Rodriguez and she said some stuff like she is too pretty to work with a black person.
I never saw this post from you. But yeah, you're wrong. Asian, Latina, and even black performers(see:Anya Ivy) all get the "ifs", "when are you gonnas", and "why won't yous" by inquirers and they also get called racist just like the white performers who haven't or don't shoot w/ black men.
^^ And V-Rod never said she was too pretty for black men, but she did retweet a post by someone else that said she was "too beautiful for that", in reference to doing IR. She also posted a snapchat video saying she won't be doing that because she's a classy pornstar, in reference to working with black male talent.
^ Alex occupies this weird space where he's black when he wants to be, but can then not be when it benefits him (or his scene partner, more to the point). There's more than a couple women he's worked with that ostensibly don't do interracial.
^Alex Jones is an interesting performer. He's the only current black/biracial male performer that I can think of who doesn't work with black women. Most black male performers work with black females. Heck most male performers be they black or white have worked with a black woman. He seems to work with white females only. He would get more work if he marketed himself as black and work the IR genre.
Yeah, whatever was intended by that remark, it didn't come across well . As far as Alex, his features are more ambiguous, so some may not know he is 1/4 black. Or if they do know, they don't really consider him to be black and a scene w/ him to be 'IR'.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 12:25AM
^I don't think that it's generally or primarily an issue of pornstars personally not regarding Alex as black. I believe that what matters is whether or not scenes with him will be categorized as IR, and how that will affect a pornstar's career.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 12:37AM
Or she's deliberately being provocative to raise her asking price, which we've seen before. What precisely did she say anyway? Even if we take her at her word (which I would hesitate before doing) and she does actually think that she's "too beautiful" and "classy" to perform in an IR scene, that doesn't automatically mean that she has a problem having sex with black men offscreen.
I came across some interesting tweets from Alex Jones which probably explains his booking challenges. [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available] [Tweet is no longer available]
^ That's why I wanted to point out that his scene partners use his race to their advantage more than he does. He's right in that he can't work for the "black" sites because he isn't dark enough, though if you ever look at pictures where it's just his dick, it looks like he is black,which is enough to make it hard for him to work for mainstream sites as a non-black performer. You can overcome this by having a large enough fanbase (or penis) to be in demand for other reasons, or by being a big fish in a small pond (I could argue that before his twitter temper tantrums, Bruno Dickemz is/was in a similar situation as far as looks/aesthetics, but the fact that he is/was one of the few reliable male performers shooting in Florida meant he got more work than he would have if he was based in LA/Vegas like Alex is).
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Eco195 Deactivated User
126 Posts 2/12
Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 7:52PM
The "people paying her" didn't and don't understand it's wasted money because these scenes aren't popular enough to justify the pay. Furthermore, the extra pay is still at this point nothing but an inducement to overcome their racism which leads them to refusing to work with Black talent to begin with. As for their "fan-base" being large enough to justify the pay. Many of the girls at Blacked, for example, have been in the business for less than 1 year and won't be around another year. Others have been in the biz less than 6 months. And the overwhelming majority of them will never do more than 1 or 2 such scenes. So why waste the money? There's nothing logical in it. Now there are a few girls like Brett Rossi and Eva Lovia who are popular enough to justify extra pay. But if they're receiving extra pay then Prince should receive a similar level of pay considering he's one of the more popular male talent in the biz and in most cases is more popular than the girl he's working with and has been in the industry far longer. So he's right to be disgusted by the pay disparity. Particularly when it goes to women who aren't well known and will quit in less than 2 years anyway. As for sending more work towards Black women that's an odd ting to criticize him for since he runs his own production studio and does in fact put a number of Black women in his films. But of course he can't only do that as he produces other scenes and is busy working for other studios shooting scenes for them. And the Black girls first Black talent issue is so absurd and niche it revolves around maybe 2 girls. So he's right to see that argument as outrageous. And the white girls are being offered more fundamentally because of the "spectacle" of them working with Black talent. Which of course is due to racism. So no, this isn't a neutral business where people are merely making deals based on what's financially best for them. It's as influenced by racism as any other industry.She's not trying to raise her asking price. And I think we can take her at her word. Odd that you want to soften and modify her own comments. She's an adult and has been in the industry long enough to know what she's saying so she meant what she said. She really believes that racist nonsense. Edited by - Eco195 on 3/23/2017 7:54:13 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 24 2017 : 1:07AM
^Precisely.
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Stall Deactivated User
83 Posts 3/17
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 9:03PM
Tell me how is it the fans fault on this, I been reading your BS a lot and now it time to address you. For one you don't speak up for most of the so call IR fans because I have seen you on here kiss ass to these girls who don't do IR, you have no pride, and want to blame others. You are a black man but have no pride. The fans don't have nothing to do with it but you can't blame them because they only paid for porn, and there nothing the fans can't do, SMH
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 8:01PM
^That doesn't mean that she didn't intend to do IR previously. Bonnie Rotten, for example, always planned to shoot IR eventually but retired. If the timing of the tweets doesn't work for that, perhaps her significant other is the issue. We can only speculate. Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/28/2017 8:03:59 PM
Dirty Wives Club 43 - review by Captain Jack
Posted - Feb 26 2017 : 1:02AM
