If there has been a push to have more aggressive porn, it's only been a marginal correction to compensate for the prevailing decline in aggressive porn in the last decade. People must have short memories, but there was downright brutal porn being made in the previous decade. I think as a whole, the industry has gotten a lot more tame in general. I'm not complaining about this either, but it's been pretty clear to me. And I don't usually go for that stuff, so it's not like I'm looking for it and noticed it disappearing. It's been that way with conservative and steady style fucking in the mainstream as well. What Voodoo and some others have mentioned about this "push to be more aggressive" but only be a reactionary directive which still hasn't compensated against the trend of softer fucking. Let's say the height of this rough fucking in the mainstream was around 2005, and if we had a scale it would rate about 10 in terms of aggressiveness. Since then had gone down to about a 5, so this recent "push" to be more aggressive hasn't even reached that previous threshold. We're probably about a 7 on the aggro-meter. IMO as long as the performers are both comfortable, they should have free reign to go hard as they want. But things really must have changed within the last 10 years, like some sort of formal or informal regulation to soften things. Maybe the Max Hardcore conviction? I remember HushHush had some pretty rough scenes, and they had to fold. I wonder if there was any lawsuits pertaining to treatment? I don't remember seeing them publish any scenes that were heinous, like some others out there. But who knows what got dropped on the cutting room floor? For the sake of discussing something besides accusations, but still related, on a scale of 1-10 how hard/aggressive do you think the general standard is for mainstream porn nowadays? Do you agree it's gotten more aggressive recently? Less? Either way you feel, more or less, or unchanged, what kind of perspective are you giving in terms of how far back you would compare? Edited by - Melvyn on 12/6/2015 7:35:55 PM
This may be news to Jezebel, but three of these lawsuits date back to August and are being brought by the very same people who were at the epicenter of the big 2013 moratorium over a report of an HIV+ performer. The aforementioned very same people are reportedly on the payroll of Michael Weinstein and Aids Healthcare Foundation. It has never been proven that the performer in question got HIV from the Kink.com shoot. It has, however, been proven that that performer's partner in the scene in question was HIV negative after the shoot and that said partner remains HIV negative to this day. Also, as matter of interest, Lorelei Lee, who has come out on the side of Stoya, is one of the individuals that the plaintiffs in that suit are suing in addition to suing Kink.com as a company.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 6 2015 : 8:11PM
Well I don't know if porn producers even follow The Cambria List, which was around long before Max Hardcore conviction but they seem to at least be aware of some of the no no's on it (for example watch some of Mike Adriano's scene's where some of the girls ask him to fist them or some other extreme stuff he says he can't do it on film). I provided links if you don't know what it is in a prior posting here: https://forum.adultdvdtalk.com/pierre-woodman-castings-a-fraud/reply/2969148#post p.s. The reason I say it might not even be used anymore is as someone in the other thread pointed out some of the stuff on the list is pretty common nowadays that no one even seems to blink an eye anymore since it's so commonplace and the whole point of the list was to avoid scrutiny from the cops/feds. List may become more relevant again in the future if the Republican's win the White House since historically one of the first things they do is crack down on porn!
Sticking only to the main discussion ... and offering a very objective comment. I doubt any of this would have happened (the media storm) if Deen and Stoya were not both InterWeb darlings and the (still active) porn stars who have made the most mainstream splash in the last few years, on their own terms and being taken very seriously. (As opposed to say, Bree Olson, of Charlie Sheen/Human Centipede 3 fame). Everything about this fits into such a perfect (dark twisted) click bait narrative, which (beyond the core issues, take them as you will) has amplified everything to a surprising degree. Websites like The Daily Beast have made a huge meal of this, the same kind of websites that also were in such thrall to James Deen. Sheena Shaw tweeted a lot of damaging stuff about John Stagliano a couple of years ago -- and had evidence -- but no one cared. Apparently, that was just a personal issue not deserving of wider scrutiny. Again, staying above the fray -- I have spent time talking with both these folks, James much more so and since the start of his career, off an on, over the years -- but it is interesting to me that performers who have been notoriously abusive for years and years (sure, let's say Max Hardcore, "for example") amid public porn star complaint ... nothing like this ever happened to them (Yes, Max is now washed up and went to jail, but that was a different thing). My thought is that this could only really happen to someone now, because of the symbiotic relationship between social media, porn, and celebrity/TMZ-Gawker websites that has evolved to where it is today, and it would only happen to someone who was well-known enough to transcend porn's insular culture to impact a wide audience. Not saying guilty or not guilty, or lying not lying, but it is something that I have been thinking a lot of about this last week. Edited by - skronker on 12/6/2015 8:38:20 PM Edited by - skronker on 12/6/2015 8:39:22 PM
I see the chickens are coming home to roost at Kink.com ... In the larger picture, this seems to be part of the whole unraveling of the porn industry. I just want cool people that I like to have fun doing sex on camera and get paid for all of us to enjoy. I think any true fan is just heartsick about all this. And I hope something positive comes out of it, although who knows ....
If I recall correctly, the judge said something upon sentencing about making an example out of his case and mentioned the treatment of the female stars or general nasty stuff he subjected them to. But I want to say it was as much about how Max was perceived treating women abusively. I never watched a whole scene that Max made. What little I've seen has been repugnant and beyond unappealing. It's revolting to me, and yet not only do I find obscenity laws usually more offensive themselves than the supposed crimes they pertain to, the whole idea of revenge justice is an inherent injustice. It's just revenge porn for judges and the sanctimonious types. That's how they get off. Revenge is not justice.
Thanks for the insight. Yeah, I vaguely recall coming across that Cambria List thing. I simply don't understand the anti-fisting thing. That just seems so bizarre to me - even more bizarre than the act of fisting. Once again, this is something I have virtually zero interest in, and yet I don't see what gives someone the authority to effectively outlaw it. I don't think out of the last thousand adult content vids I've seen, any of them focused on fisting. I have no special interest in seeing that. But I just don't understand what could the impetus for this restriction have been? I mean forget a fist, there's been way bigger and more extreme insertions that go on with monstrous toys and exhibitionists doing webcam shows all the time. How is a fist worse? It's just baffling to me.
I don't know how to show tweets in the message, so here's a link Stoya supports Lily Labeau and Bonnie Rotten But I don't recall Bonnie Rotten weighing in on this at all. Of course she then replies to Stoya's tweet with
Wow, I know there are actors who are in the "no list" of several pornstars but i have no idea that JD have trouble with many girls. He was the favorite, the best and most requested porn actor, is sad to see that his life and job are "done"...
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 6:07AM
After everything that's been revealed since this story first broke, two things are abundantly clear: -The environment at (certain) porn sets isn't as friendly, relaxed and "safe" as what we're lead to believe from industry people (stars, directors, etc). -There's more animosity between stars in the biz than we thought, as evidenced by many stars choosing one side, while trashing the other, in this scenario.
From what I remember about Max Hardcore's case, he went to jail for portraying underage girls as his sex-partners. His women looked a little too young, and that's what he went to jail for. According to the law, consent doesn't matter anymore, when the girl is too young to have sex with the guy. Which means that consent wasn't much of an issue there. Edited by - Dan on 12/7/2015 6:35:35 AM
I'd say that after this dispute in the porn industry, American porn-making will probably go down the drain. A lot of potential female porn-stars will probably get turned off and won't join the porn industry. And those who remain in the porn-industry probably won't perform as well with each other, as they would've done before this dispute. Because now a lot of people in the porn industry are going to distrust each other and play it safe, just in case. Which will lead to less hardcore and more softcore in porn movies. European porn is probably the future of porn for US porn-fans, who still want to see some hardcore. The biggest winner in all of this is probably the Legal Porno website. Because that's where a lot of US porn-fans will probably flock, after their disappointment with the US porn-industry. Edited by - Dan on 12/7/2015 6:43:31 AM
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pervybrit50 Deactivated User
473 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 7:02AM
Also I think Hardcore like Rob Black got done for selling certain types of material via the postal system-it was basically bs charges but it was his behaviour & the complaints from women like Neesa & Violet Storm in a documentary that put him back on the authorities radar-he was first charged in the late 1990's. People like Hardcore bring attention on themselves -dressing up women to look like underage schoolgirls, pissing on them, making them puke etc is obviously going to cause issues.
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pervybrit50 Deactivated User
473 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 7:11AM
Nope-this will not put many women off of joining the industry. Many come in don't like it & do one or two scenes for cash before departing, others love it & make a career out of it, sex sells & it is an easy way to make great money in a crappy economy.
Max Hardcore's case was an obscenity trial. Multiple counts. There's some odd info to the contrary bouncing around this thread. AVN: "Jury Finds Max Hardcore Guilty On All Counts in Obscenity Trial" "And so it went through all 20 counts against both Little and MWE for using a computer system to transport obscene material and for mailing obscene material to the Middle District of Florida: Guilty on all counts." - AVN
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 12:26PM
I can't say that I've been entirely convinced that Deen is a rapist, but I have been convinced that he is something of an asshole.
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klies Deactivated User
1733 Posts 5/09
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 1:12PM
American porn making is not going anywhere unless they are forced to shutdown somehow. Only thing I think will happen is that male performers are going to be extra careful from now on... but after some time all of this will be forgotten and things will go back to the way they always were.
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klies Deactivated User
1733 Posts 5/09
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 1:15PM
yup. Thread title should be changed to porn stars accuse Deen of assholery
You are correct to qualify that with (certain) porn sets. For example, in direct contrasts to the sets that have been described in this thread: a) on the set of 2007's Upload (as captured on the BTS of Upload), there is a rambunctious, over-eager male performer chasing BTS camera operator Kylie Ireland with a hard-on. Eli Cross stepped in and smacked said rambunctious, over-eager male performer hard right on said performer's hard-on, and then said "Be good!" The most telling thing about that BTS segment was the look on Aiden Starr's face throughout. Aiden is not exactly shy about giving male performers a beating. Throughout this BTS segment, however, she had an extremely awkward smile and eyes wide-wide-WIDE open. Someone immediately commented "Wow, that was harsh!" Aiden, still frozen-faced in shock at Eli's swift and unequivocal disciplining of a male performer who had crossed the line, did not verbally reply, but merely nodded up and down in agreement with that statement. b) For the life of me, I cannot find it now, but I distinctly remember reading (I think it was on Gram Ponante's on-set report of The 8th Day, but I could be wrong) that, on the set of The 8th Day, there were some male extras who were hassling Amber Rayne. Eli Cross swiftly fired them and had them thrown off the set. c) In one BehindKink episode, they are showing Jessie Parker being tied up by, I believe, JohnPaulThePope. They stop shooting because the camera woman says "I think we have reached one of Jessie's limits." I remember another such BehindKink episode wherein either Princess Donna or Isis Love does the exact same thing (halt a shoot because they perceive that the model's limit has been crossed.) d) I remember the BTS of one of the earlier Chanta's Bitches shoot involving a pair of blonde subs. One of the blonde subs verbalizes that she is uncomfortable. Chanta says "Tell me what is wrong." The problem with the adult industry is the exact same problem Dragnet's Joe Friday said about recruiting for the LAPD; "We have to recruit from the human race." As long as any industry/organization has to recruit from the human race, it will have its share of dirtbags, scumbags and assholes.There has always been animosity between people involved in the business. This was very clear in the pre-Measure B 2000's when Luke Ford had his second website and when MySpace was a thing. You could not go to Ford's website without seeing some performer/producer/director ripping into another performer/producer/director. This continued with the advent of Twitter. Then Measure B came along right after AHF destroyed AIM, and there was a collective reaction of "Holy FUCK! AHF is organizing to destroy our industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" In reaction to Measure B and AHF, there were plenty of meetings wherein industry people who absolutely could not stand each other, who had ripped each other apart constantly, were sitting next to each other trying to figure out how the fuck to react to the threat of Whinestain and AHF. Post Measure B, until this incident came up, the pre-Measure B, Luke Ford-era vicious, extremely public, eternal internecine industry warfare slowed down massively. It did not end, but it was not constantly at the forefront. Those disputes that were made highly public overwhelmingly involved people who were industry rejects/washouts/unemployables and a good number of them hitched their wagons to Measure B/AHF/Michael Whinestain as a means to stay relevant. The thing is, the adult industry has survived Luke Ford's attempts to destroy it because it offended his religious sensibilities. It has, thus far, survived Whinestain/AHF/Shelley Lubben/Gail Dines' attempts to destroy it because it offends their (religious, in the case of Lubben and Dines, bottom line, in the case of Whinestain) sensibilities. It has also found a way to remain somewhat profitable (clipsforsale, nightflirt and the new Virtual Reality porn) despite all the fucking tube sites. Everyone and everything has been trying to destroy the industry for decades. No one has yet succeeded.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 3:02PM
If you asked Deen privately, "are you an asshole", I doubt he would deny it. it is apparent, and has been for a long time, that he enjoys degrading women and causing them distress and discomfort (verbally or sexually). He also has to be told to stop and respect boundaries over and over again. Most people deal with it and move on, some put him on a No list (like lisa ann or bonnie), and some have decided to make it public. Wrapping the blanket of "this is BDSM" over it really misses the mark and I don't think he really understands the core principles of BDSM play and the lifestyle. I think he uses that term more to try to protect himself than actually something he believes in. A lot of his actions are not something a person committed to a BDSM lifestyle would actually do.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 3:11PM
I think it's pretty obvious that I'm speaking of the impression that I've gotten of him from various interviews and articles linked to throughout this thread. If you think that he is less of an asshole than I've come to believe or not an asshole at all, that's fine, but I frankly don't think that it's worth debating. Unlike rape, being an asshole isn't a crime.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 3:15PM
Well if we're taking everything the anonymous "industry vet" says at face value, he point blank says that Deen is an asshole. That's a guy who is defending Deen. But I'm not entirely sure that SP's question wasn't a bit tongue in cheek.
There's also an infamous video floating out there on the tubes showing Max peeing on a girl and then she has a hysterical breakdown, obviously it wasn't something she signed on for. He then spends several minutes trying to console her and say it was just water, while still conceding it passed through his body. oh brother... I also dont understsand that "portraying as underage" thing cuz it seems a lot of other companies try doing that too, with the whole "teens" theme. Technically they could be portrayed as 18 or 19, but they know what they are doing using "teens." Most teens are minors. Anyway if we lend credence to all this claims about James Deen, he actually makes Max seem tame. But James was better looking and young, so I guess he got by with more. If Max was doing the things Deen's been alleged of doing, he would probably still be in prison.
I don't think that's a fair conclusion. It's not like we suddenly have stories popping up about about a bunch of other male performers acting in this manner. You can't assume that a case like Deen or even a few others that may exist, are only the tip of an iceberg. Sure it's possible such incidents are more common, but a flood of stories surrounding an individual performer doesn't suddenly make me believe that such examples are widespread or common in the porn industry as a whole. I can certainly understand why one would now question if porn sets are as safe as we have been lead to believe, but I think that's a far cry from being able to state that it's "abundantly clear" that they are not.
I agree that being an asshole is not rape or a crime. A debate requires that I put forward an opposing argument which I am not. I'm just curious as to what specific things from interviews/articles contained in this thread have convinced you that he's an asshole?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 4:10PM
Besides what I quoted from Bonnie, I'm going to have to plead laziness here. Going back through the thread and clicking on link after link and then quoting from said links is not something I'm inclined to do.
I'm not taking anything the anonymous "industry vet" says at face value. Are you murdock? btw I'm genuinely curious. Are you also convinced that JD is an asshole?
Add teen mom farrah abraham and Bree Olson to the expanding list. This is so gross on every single level imaginable. James Deen in my mind will never work in porn again. It's way to risky for everyone involved for him to continue. From this point on out if he crosses the wrong girl, pisses off the wrong person, or steps out of line ( intentional or unintentional )and offends / hurts the wrong person he will find himself in the crosshairs of the law. Truthful or not it will only take on accusation and not only will his career be in jeopardy but his freedom. I cant see a big studio wanting any of that headache on their hands.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 6:02PM
No, I'm not taking anything from the anonymous industry vet at face value. As noted above I wasn't sure if your question was facetious or not, so I tried to reply in a manner that would answer it either way. That said, I'm convinced of very little from this thread, but I do lean one direction or another on many topics discussed here. My inclination is to think that Deen is probably an asshole. If I felt really strongly about it I'd go find additional quotes but like MissP I'm not really that invested in trying to prove it one way or the other. But I think there have been several people that have had interactions with him that seem to believe he is so I don't think it's really a stretch to believe them. Granted by my standards the burden of proof for "is he an asshole" is significantly lower than "is he a rapist" But honestly I'm not really sure what it has to do with anything. On a side note, who coined the term "rapist?" I always thought "raper" would be more appropriate. "Rapist" sounds like there has been some mastery of an artform in order to get the title. Doesn't sound right to me.
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 6:37PM
Bonnie rotten is just trying to extend her fading 15 mins.. Not sure if people remember it but she mocked Christy Mack after her rape.. [mod edit: comment removed. See the ADT forum etiquette, 3rd paragraph.] https://twitter.com/thebonnierotten/status/500749116797091840 And not sure if people posted the nicki blue link on her tumblr but http://nickiblue.tumblr.com/post/25030896483/im-so-happy-i-got-to-fuck-jamesdeen-before-he Things like you make one doubt about the ambiguousness of the event when narrated after a long time without any proof. It does not help that she is getting some publicity after so much time. Why is everyone talking to the media before even thinking about reporting to thee police ? Edited by - sparrow55 on 12/7/2015 6:43:15 PM Edited by - killbillvol69 on 12/7/2015 8:04:09 PM
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 7 2015 : 6:46PM
Of all the people involved, the one with the least credibility is Farrah Abraham. Remember how she tried to peddle the sextape first time around ? Deen refused to go along with her lie. He was a hired actor for her scene.
James Deen @ Adult Empire
Posted - Dec 6 2015 : 7:33PM
