kind of already happening in my country. If the court feels that woman is completely truthful then no other evidence is necessary. would love to see the same happen in US too. only then most of these people will understand how good the current system was. Edited by - klies on 12/15/2015 9:03:06 PM
^Does anyone remember when Den (remember Den?) would automatically give a scene a failing grade, or wouldn't review it, if the male performer choked or abused the female performer? I understand the desire and market and place for S&M porn (I like my Kink stuff too), but I'm not happy with how it's become so mainstream either. Edited by - bossanova on 12/15/2015 9:03:28 PM Edited by - bossanova on 12/15/2015 9:07:02 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 9:15PM
A person can have rough sex several times a day, every day, and still fully understand and abide by safe words and laws of consent. Just because someone engages in or is aroused by consensual rough sex it does not follow that person is probably a rapist or on their way to becoming one.
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negro_of_record Deactivated User
100 Posts 12/15
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 11:10PM
Safe Words, really... Well, in that fantasy environment I guess anything is possible. However, you can see rage in some peoples eyes. I can't shake seeing a BTS of John Dough, farting on a woman's face after slapping her and being abusive, he then started laughing like a retard. Not long after that scene, he committed suicide. I think there is a place for rough sex, the same way there is a market for Twinkies and sticks of butter in women's asses. Mainstream porn should be exactly that. I am sick and tired of the lines being blurred, reminds me of being in a club years ago and the DJ mixed some country song in with a Hip Hop classic. I don't want Achey Breaky in my rap and I don't want abusive fantasy in my mainstream porn. I can be an ass fucking freak, and still be a complete gentlemen at work, but again it all come back to keeping lines from being blurred. Safe words or not, the wrong attitude, outfit or lack of panties on a hot day could get this negro in a lot of trouble. I have pulled my dick out more than once on the job and thank God I read the signals right or I would be the subject of someone else's forum. So I guess you are saying James wasn't clear on what Stoya's safe words were?
#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 11:34PM
It was posted on the internet, therefore it should be believed. Anyone who disagrees is an apologist. #SolidarityWithFido
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negro_of_record Deactivated User
100 Posts 12/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 1:39AM
Not my bag, but I'm all for it. For me, I just don't like the rough mixed in with my stuff. I love nacho's and I love stir fry and as racist as it sounds, you got to keep em separated. Unlike Reese's, it's not two great tastes tastes that taste great together.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 3:31AM
Yup I expect Godwin’s Law will come into play anytime now!
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 3:49AM
Yeh how many more people have to make unsubstantiated allegations against Bonnie before it becomes mandatory to believe them ? #solidaritywithbonnie #bonnieisinnocent
I forgot which thread it was on, but someone made the point before me and as perfectly as I would have. Women dodging IR because they thought black guys were "too rough", but called James Deen a sex god because he was always doing rough sex and fish hooking women. That was just gas poured on the fire of him being who he is. You're totally right, a person can engage in rough sex and become arouses by it and have others participate with them. Different partners, multiple occasions, etc, etc. But that same person can't take in those desires and wishes without taking full freaking responsibility in their partners well-being!!! Again, Stoya used her safe word, so if she had one and informed him about it she knew her limits. PERIOD! End of story! But he's probably been with other stars on and off camera and became that abusive and rough sex guy. A lot of them might've complained and/or not wanted to continue, but if he doesn't care and is in no way listening there's nothing they can do. That's called rape.
I think the choking part in porn-movies might mean something other than abuse or S&M porn. Because there is such a thing as autoerotic asphyxiation, where people deliberately cut off oxygen to their brain to impair their brain function and temporarily induce intoxication-like feelings and effects. Some years ago, an actor, David Carradine, accidentally killed himself, while engaging in this practice. And that's the thing about choking. It's a dangerous practice that can lead to a serious injury and even death. And this is true even when one person chokes another. Because such choking temporarily stops blood flow in the neck veins and arteries, which can lead to blood clotting there. And if such a blood clot goes from the neck to the brain, then this can lead to a stroke and a permanent brain injury or even death for the person who has been choked.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 12:06PM
^From what I've seen, much of the choking in porn nowadays is either very light or faked (the guy doesn't press down on the throat), with the person being "choked" exaggerating for the camera. I don't know that it's common for performers to be choked in a way reminiscent of being strangled by a noose. In any case, many people, including myself, regard it as pleasurable to be choked during sex under certain circumstances and many people enjoy watching the act. The point is to be careful, which David Carradine was not. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/16/2015 12:19:27 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 12:41PM
Not to go OT into IR territory, but those performers were likely talking nonsense in order to temporarily or permanently avoid shooting with black men. Both Adriana Chechik and Casey Calvert have acknowledged that black performers are not very rough. Of course they can only speak from their individual experiences, but considering that it's not uncommon for performers to tell lies when asked about why they won't shoot with black men, I don't see any reason to take "dodgers" to at their word when it comes to their excuses.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 1:18PM
Yup stupid way to die and even more stupid is I remember seeing some BTS where some pornstars talk about it and say they only do it with people they trust as if there was any "safe" or approved way to do this WTF!!!
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 1:26PM
^Are you really going to pretend that there's no difference between the choking you see in porn and what David Carradine did to himself? Maybe I've just overlooked all of the porn that features people being hung by a rope around the neck.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 1:42PM
Miss Genocide aka Holly Dee was the person who made a complaint about Deens behaviour on the set of a "breath play" movie. Her complaint goes ; ""He put the camera down and choked me until my eyes rolled into the back of my head and I passed out for a couple of seconds. It was only a few seconds, but I had never experienced anything like that. " In a breath play / choking / asphyxiation movie is that a legitimate complaint ? I mean if i was into suffocation (which im not) i would want to see the "victim" showing some signs of affect , and this presumably is tending towards unconsciousness , otherwise it just boils down to watching a guy with his hands round some chicks throat which is pretty lame. Same if it was a guy being choked - presumably he needs to be affected by the neck constriction , otherwise its a nonsense or im missing something. So from Hollys perspective she was choked on the set of a choking movie. From deens perspective maybe he was testing to check his partners response to constriction and establish the limits for the wscene about to be filmed.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 1:53PM
No rope is necessary that's why it's more dangerous than most realize: "One of the dangers of sexual asphyxiation is that it can trigger a heart attack. Deprived of oxygen, the chemistry of your blood changes. Those chemical changes can throw the heart into deadly heart rhythm abnormalities or cause and cardiac arrest. So you can die even if a partner loosens the noose. "The probability of a successful resuscitation is pretty low," Wiseman says. " http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=51776 Personally, I don't see how anyone would even contemplate this considering where the idea originated from: "The idea for this most likely came from subjects who were executed by hanging. Observers at public hangings noted that male victims developed an erection, sometimes remaining after death (a death erection), and occasionally ejaculated when being hanged." Anyways remind me how did we get off onto this tangent... Edited by - daviangel on 12/16/2015 1:54:04 PM Edited by - daviangel on 12/16/2015 1:57:28 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 1:55PM
^^Do you ever wonder why, in porn scenes and movies with slapping, the person being slapped usually doesn't end up looking they got slapped around the way somebody who's suffered domestic abuse has? Choking in porn is not about bringing your scene partner to near unconsciousness anymore than slapping in porn is about causing injury to your scene partner's face. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/16/2015 1:56:23 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 2:01PM
From that article:Is it your impression that this is common in porn? We are later warned in the article that a participant in sexual hanging "can die even if a partner loosens the noose." What does this have to do with porn?
There's actually a way to make that happen in this thread... LOL
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IkeMan Deactivated User
40 Posts 12/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 4:09PM
I still don't get why a) anyone is surprised that "James Deen" has a problematic sexual behavior (aggressive-violent style, pushing the boundaries of his partners, pleasure from treating women deragatory - this is in essence his sex style) and b) why self-appointed "feminists" celebrated this guy out of all so radically? Just curious, since it seems so contradictory to me. Please feel free to share your thoughts in a constructive way. I see this as an opportunity to learn something and I don't want to escalate anything here. Edited by - IkeMan on 12/16/2015 4:09:45 PM
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 4:16PM
Why anyone who called themselves a feminist would label James Deen a feminist, was always beyond my comprehension. I honestly doubt many people really know what that term means anymore. I often felt these people were just enamored with his looks and created some false narrative that he was a nice loving man who liked to rough it up in the bedroom.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 4:22PM
The following exchange may help illuminate that for you.Now your next question.Did they? I'm a feminist and I was a fan of Deen's for many years, though by the time this story broke I had already tired of his shtick. That said, being a fan of his was never about "feminism" for me. I just liked his work. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/16/2015 4:24:03 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 4:28PM
Personally, as a porn consumer and a feminist, the question of whether the performers I'm watching are feminists or not doesn't usually cross my mind. I liked James Deen's work, but the whole issue of his association with feminism was pretty much nonexistent for me until this controversy erupted. Maybe he identified as a feminist? I have to admit I wouldn't know. I can count the interviews of him that I've read, watched, or listened to on one hand.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 5:00PM
Gotcha so in the same way that porn slapping isnt slapping in earnest , its not breathing constriction in earnest either. Its doing it with kid gloves or faking it. I guess the differentiation is that if your into suffocation and are actually practicing yourself then you will do it for real in real life but porn performers doing it for video will just give a rendition of it , as thats all thats required. So it would seem that the Holly complaint is a legitimate one. Re - Deen and feminism my impression it was something that was thrust upon him rather than something he courted. (my impression based on his own account obviously)
My point here is that there are performers who do things such as fish hooking, slapping, ducking girls heads in the toliet, etc. In a Belladonna movie that's another thing entirely. COMPLETE DOUBLE STANDARD, I know. But for me it seems far different with a female director and star fully acknowledging that she likes rough sex and has shown so repeatedly in her movies. And said so in multiple interviews and audio commentary. But again the "he's so hot and I would let him fish hook me" mentality that women in the industry and in real life had for James Deen just played into everything the guy was and is about. I can bet dollars to donuts there are still vanilla women now who had read about this, but they still wish that he fucks them because "he's hot". Whatever this guy's deal is I can tell you he doesn't give two shits about anything except his own pleasure and whatever disturbing dominance he can show the women he's with. This is the same bastardized version of the BDSM D/s lifestyle so many people have fallen prey to in the past couple of years. A safeword is there to show you that the trust your partner has placed in you will not be forsaken or ignored. Just like in those idiot books when he ignored her safeword and continued to do whatever he was doing to her it was betrayal. And the same can be said for James Deen. Stoya told you her safeword and you ignored it... I'll say it again... that's called rape. And just because he's a pretty boy with a big dick doesn't mean he'll be immune to being called a rapist.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 5:24PM
^I agree with parts of what you're saying here, but in regards to your second paragraph I don't think its unreasonable that people are willing to go further sexually with someone to whom they're attracted than with someone to whom they are not.
^ I meant in regards to responsible people in the BDSM lifestyle. I wasn't referring in the least to people who disregard the mutual respect and openness that he obviously didn't display with his partner. She was not a consensual partner in regards to anything romantic or relationship based (as far as I know). It was a business transaction based on both of their standings in the adult industry for a movie or scene that was being filmed. So on multiple levels it is an act of betrayal on his part. That was my point. Edited by - DVDstuff on 12/16/2015 5:35:57 PM
So, James is nominated in many categories for the AVN awards. What's going to happen there? Will the nominations be withdrawn? Will he show up? It seems the porn industry have got to make up their mind here. I'm guessing he won't win anything at least. Btw, at this point there can be no doubt that he is someone who doesn't respect boundaries. Very likely a rapist, but likely not enough evidence to put him in jail. If he continues to get work, I'll certainly not buy anything he's in. Edited by - sp1 on 12/16/2015 5:51:45 PM
^ If the industry is anything like Hollywood it won't matter and in a few years they'll welcome him back with open arms. Then again the adult industry is nowhere near as big as Hollywood. It should be easy for the top stars to refuse to work with him now.
Porn watcher or not I do consider myself a feminist. And the simple fact that he raped a woman like Stoya who appears to be one of the smartest women in the adult industry speaks VOLUMES to his behavior. I'm saddened it might take her away from an industry that needs more women like her.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 6:01PM
Personally i would hesitate to champion the worthiness of any of the characters involved , the accounts we have of stoya hardly paint her as a worthy feminist role model , any more than JD.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 6:22PM
Ben Mockridge wrote:He actually said that in his last interview: " I have never claimed to be a “feminist” or “the boy next door.”"-JD seems he might've been fine with the label while it suited him since I doubt he ever said anything otherwise on the subject until these accusations
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 7:05PM
Like I said to someone earlier on the thread, hiring an alleged rapist to have sex with people is not the same as a "Hollywood" acting gig. We're talking about someone who's been accused of sex crimes being asked to have sex on camera. It's a bad idea and I think that a lot of producers probably understand that regardless of whether they believe Deen is guilty of one or more of the crimes he is accused of or not.
I guess when I look at someone who calls themselves a feminist, and they enjoy the sexual presentation of calling a woman degrading names and inflicting pain on her... I don't connect the dots. I honestly don't think anyone knows what "feminist" means anymore. It seems to be one of those words that everyone has created their own narrative for and then proudly say from the mountain tops that they are one. I couldn't call myself a feminist while at the same time enjoying a sexual performer who wants to fuck a girls ass until it bleeds. I just don't see the connection. But hey, that's just me!
Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 12/16/2015 7:31:49 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 16 2015 : 8:09PM
Personally, I wouldn't assume that person is a feminist nor would I assume the contrary. I'm going to share a helpful excerpt from an article on DominantGuide.com:In such a case, I don't why we should assume that person is not a feminist. There are plenty of feminists in the kink community, myself included. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/16/2015 8:11:23 PM Dan Savage wrote a tweet last year that I think is applicable to Deen and touches on the point I'm trying to make with this post: “I oppose the demonization of consensual kinksters. I despise abusers who cover for their crimes by claiming to be consensual kinksters.” It's important that we make that distinction. Just because someone is a sadist we shouldn't assume that they want to commit sexual assault or are misogynists (or misandrists for that matter). Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/16/2015 8:18:38 PM
I never expected to encounter someone from a Christian cult on a porn forum. I may regret asking this, but would you care to explain what point you're trying to make with the excerpt you pulled from your cult doctrine?
Edited by - raincoater-smutster on 12/16/2015 9:34:08 PM
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 17 2015 : 12:28AM
Just what you would expect a seasoned dog killer to say.. Deny it!!! Ok, that was a joke...Couldn't resist it., Though "Bonnie the dog killer" does seem to have a good ring to it. My point was about the damaging effect of rumors on a very public career of a porn star. I was asking you to imagine if something like this rumor came up when you are in the mainstream public eye Edited by - sparrow55 on 12/17/2015 12:30:54 AM
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negro_of_record Deactivated User
100 Posts 12/15
Posted - Dec 17 2015 : 1:32AM
Strong points by both of you. Anyone who doesn't engage in IR has issues and whatever those issues are don't concern me. If women willingly lay down with men that degrade them, or male talent like Ron Jeremy or Max Hardcore, but find black men repulsive, you ain't fooling this negro. Keep rocking your Drake, Tupac and Biggie T-Shirts, sell outs! As mad as it will make readers. This is exactly what went through my head when War Machine mopped the floor with Christie Mack's face. I would never encourage that behavior and think a man who put his hands on a woman is a punk, but that was straight up white on white plight. Black talent talks tough and a couple may have done time, but the only thing they are beating is pussy. So not to get off track, great points and James Deen was always overrated and it's obvious that his ego got the best of him and he should apologize and move on.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 17 2015 : 2:59AM
This is where you lost me over and over. what Deen does, breaking boundaries, pushing safe words, ignoring stops; this is not BDSM. He just wants to hurt people and make them feel horrible . If you truly are a member of a kink community, you know full well this is not a healthy or acceptable way for man to conduct himself in the BDSM community. Mr Deen is not about real BDSM; he is about hurting people and seeing them panic, feel awful, and wanting to get away because they are hurting. That is not real BDSM play. His continued actions would get him banned from any BDSM or swingers club I have ever known. So, for you to support him and admire his actions, would tell me you have lost your way on what BDSM play actually is. A feminist ( and I maintain nobody knows what that means anymore and makes up their own narrative), can enjoy BDSM.... I can not accept that a feminist can support someone who breaks BDSM boundaries and tries to put women in bad situations that make them feel awful and getting injured. There is no BDSM club that can call itself legit that would accept one of their members making a woman's ass bleed and then fucking her harder and not stopping when she is injured (just to make one example). Again, just my opinion which I know won't fly here... I just feel I should share it.
Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 12/17/2015 3:04:35 AM
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
MisspormUSA can obviously speak for herself but is pretty obvious that the "In such a case" she was refering to was "sadism is widely accepted as a healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual pleasure." Something allegedly different from Deen. Missporn was onviously not talking about Deen. Missporn was obviously not supporting or admire Deens actions. Missporn was obviously making the point that sane, safe and consensual sadism isnt incompatible with feminsm.
I agree. Politically it's a stupid decision for producers to continue hiring someone who's been accused of rape. Regardless of the truth of the allegation, i.e. Deen hasn't been charged or convicted yet, it wouldn't just be bad PR for the studio that hired him, it'd reflect badly on the porn industry as a whole and possibly affirm the beliefs of anti-porn activists that there is no good in the industry and that that rape is an occupational hazard.
James Deen @ Adult Empire
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 9:00PM
