Unless either he produces a smoking gun that says that she's lying, or she produces one that says that she's telling the truth (and I doubt either one of these things happen), it looks like this will end up as a he-said, she-said argument with people taking their own sides (and the other stories mattering less and less as time goes on), with him staying in his little corner of the internet on his website (any maybe some shoots with Jules or other people he's known for a really long time), and Stoya will stay in her little corner of the internet with TrenchcoatX (and maybe another director or two, either someone outside of the mainstream US porn scene or just maybe Stagliano [who is technically one of the only people, if not the only person, to shoot her outside of Digital Playground]). I don't see how someone like Mason or Collette can shoot him going forward, though (though Collette seems to be trying really hard to make me think otherwise).
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 7:08PM
There is one telling factor about this that no one is mentioning that I've seen: Eexcept for a few tweets, guess what he hasn't done - denied it. Were I innocent I would be on the attack in the media, suing companies and Stoya for wrongful termination and defamation. He's done nothing. Boycott James Deen, Silicone Is Evil, Razors Aren't Much Better
^^ He can't sue anyone for wrongful termination, because no one has terminated him. Porn performers are independent contractors who work on a per shoot basis, and all Evil Angel and Kink have done is said that they won't be contacting him to be in any more scenes. Doc Johnson has declined to sell his products, but I'm fairly sure they can end a product line any time they want for any reason, and don't really have to recompense him for that. And he denied it again in the interview with Aurora Snow. And as has been stated in this thread before, he doesn't want a defamation lawsuit because even if Stoya's accusation (and a few others) aren't true, you don't know what else might come out in a lawsuit that you don't want coming out. Even his friends have clearly stated that he's an asshole, and who knows what level of assholish behavior will come out of it. And that's not to mention that any lawsuit keeps this whole incident in the press (and the courts) for even longer, and for the good of his career what he would want right now is for everyone to just forget about this and move on. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 12/11/2015 7:15:38 PM
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 7:16PM
^ Good points. Yet the defenders persist. Reminds me of the heady Paterno days Boycott James Deen, Silicone Is Evil, Razors Aren't Much Better
A lot of vehement opinions here, and few minds changed. Maybe everyone can agree that the debate itself is actually good. Without defenders of the accuser, we'd be be suppressing the voice of any victim. Without defenders of the accused, we'd be convicting without a hearing. While this case won't go to trial, many do. And both camps are the foundation of justice everywhere. Be good. Whatever it is, defend something. You matter.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 9:40PM
Honestly, whether he is innocent or guilty going into aggressive denial would be a lot worse for him. Best thing is to not say anymore. He has said his piece and people know where he is coming from. He needs to take a year away from porn until this all settles down. I honestly don't think this is the end of his porn career. There will be plenty of people who will still work with him; especially with this out in the open people may perceive he will be on better behavior and not cross the line (I do not agree with that sentiment, it will be out there though). And plenty of men will still want to watch his scenes. Who knows; it's porn, anyone can make a comeback. Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 12/11/2015 9:40:59 PM
Very true! With this thread, at least no one will ever be able to accuse ADT of shutting down the debate and closing ranks behind either the accused or accusers. Porn's enemies in the past have accused the industry of shutting down discourse about negative news. This thread preempts that accusation this time.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 11:05PM
With a bit of time and clever marketing you never know. Look at Mel Gibson, Mike Tyson, or who was that football player that went to prison for dogfights, etc..
^^ None of them (and Michael Vick is the football player) is anywhere near the level of popularity/importance they had before their incidents. While James may not be done as a performer in general, there's no way he comes back from this and gets to the top of the heap in terms of male performers again.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 11:48PM
For the record, if Deen's controversy was the result of his smacking his girlfriend and using a couple of racial slurs (Gibson), or dog fighting (Vick), and not due to multiple accusations of rape, I doubt that it would do nearly as much damage to his place in the industry. If he were to be convicted of rape like Tyson was it's unlikely that anyone would hire him after his release.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/11/2015 11:50:36 PM
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JB_X Deactivated User
addled 1500 Posts 10/12
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 11:54PM
Several of the women that have come forward have mentioned December 17th as some kind of key date. Whether that means legal action, or some other sort of allegations, I don't know. I have a feeling that this won't just "blow over," though.
I have said it once and will say it again. Any porn studio from this point forward who hires James Deen to interact with female talent in any sexual manner is just asking for trouble. It might not be today, tomorrow, a week from now or a year but regardless of any of the previous accusations if he finds himself in the news for sexual misconduct regardless if the female is truthful or not, money grubbing or not, there will be heads rolling. He has a huge target on his back. HUGE. I would hate to be the person who hires him having to be in the middle of a lawsuit / criminal case with people tearing them a new asshole asking how they allowed this to happen especially after the previous allegations.
I don't think it will blow over for him. Deen is probably done. What Vick and Gibson did is categorically different. In porn, you have to put your trust in people, especially if you are doing BDSM scenes. No way very many people will be able to do that. I wouldn't hire Vick to baby sit my dog. I wouldn't hire Gibson to babysit my imaginary child. If I wanted someone to throw a football, I might hire Vick. If I want someone to jump out of an exploding building while I film it for a movie about Jesus, I might hire Gibson. I'm not hiring Jame to fuck. that said, I think this issue, as a whole, will blow over, nothing will have changed. there still may be a problem in the industry, where people might see behavior like this from popular performers and brofive it. (as is alleged several times here) Edited by - yourmomma on 12/12/2015 12:36:02 AM
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 12:27AM
Yeah reminds me of an interview with Robert Downey Jr. where the studio's wouldn't hire him, this was back when he had just gotten out of prison for drug charges, because he couldn't be bonded for any movies or something because of course none of the production companies wanted to take a risk with him in any of their films. Think he thanked Johnny Depp or some other actor because they put up their own money or got someone to put it up for him because they believed in him. And now look at him and what a big reversal and crazy to think there was a time no one but his friends believed in him! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Completion_guarantee Edited by - daviangel on 12/12/2015 12:29:20 AM
Also in the case of Michael Vick specifically, he openly admitted what he did was monstrous, and served a prison sentence. The public has (by and large) forgiven him because he came right out and made no excuses for his behavior. If Deen were to do an about face and attempt to atone for what he did, some of it may die down eventually. But in that scenario he'd probably only be able to shoot for his own site (much farther down the road). Edited by - high_flyin5 on 12/12/2015 1:06:48 AM
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Probably grown out of it/moved on to the next 'hot' guy. Haven't seen swathes of teen girls crying about their hero being picked on & attacking the accusers on social media. The guy was a five minute wonder which led to him getting a part in a mainstream film that nobody watched-taking barely a fifth of the production costs.
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 2:32AM
I always thought of him as the Justin Beiber of porn with baby face and clean cut (probably why I never liked him in the first place) and girls still not tired of him AFAIK? Edited by - daviangel on 12/12/2015 2:32:56 AM
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 4:57AM
Agreed Even in this thread there are people who attempt to stifle bedate by characterising anyone who dares question the allegations as a rape defender. It is wholly reasonable to question and scrutinise the allegations - the fact that Stoya has allegedly threatened false rape allegations in the past is pertinent. The suggestion that journalists are offering large sums of money for dirt on Deen is pertinent. Trying to stifle pertinent information under the guise that anyone who does so is a rape defender , is simply the limp mindset of the class of person who sends death threats to defence lawyers in high profile cases. These people actually do more harm than good as they just undermine the subject being dealt with in the serious and inteligent manner that it deserves.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 5:01AM
So lets examine the Ashley Fires - James Deen Almost Raped Me" allegation. "I was getting out of the shower of the communal bathroom at Kink, I reach for my towel to dry off, and he comes up from behind me and pushes himself and his erection into my butt,” she continued. “He pushes me against the sink and starts grabbing on me and I was like, ‘No, no, no James, no,’ and he released me from his grasp". First the almost raped allegation is subjective sensationalism. What actually happened is either standard Kink environment high jinks - or sexual assault depending oh how you choose to view it and context is crucial in evaluating how it should be viewed. How acceptable it is for a male to press himself up against a woman depends on circumstances , location , individual familiarity , relationship history etc etc. It seems that this might be acceptable/accepted behaviour at kink. See numerous articles. Deen made a Kink situational acceptable move on Ashley , Ashley objected and James backed the fuck off. I am making an arguement for the defense - please dont limply respond with ; your a rape defender , your a bad person , your probably a rapist , nobody but a rapist would concoct an arguement like that etc etc etc. What's Going On At Kink.com http://mic.com/articles/129866/what-s-going-on-at-kink-com-the-studio-at-the-center-of-the-james-deen-allegations#.hKbt52zMj
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pervybrit50 Deactivated User
473 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 5:19AM
I doubt Kink have a policy on sexual shenanigans in the shower, again it is up to the individual & nothing to do with Kink or any other company. Most porn performers want to show up, do a scripted scene, get paid & go home or somewhere else-not hang around having sex for free afterwards, if you are in the shower you are cleaning up after the scene so really you would imagine the last thing you want is more sex. If he had asked her first & she said yes then fine-but there is no defence for just ramming your dick in the ass of somebody without their permission, even if you were both in an orgy scene 40 minutes or so earlier.
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JB_X Deactivated User
addled 1500 Posts 10/12
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 5:25AM
^ It seems like your argument here, at its core, is that even if everything Ashley Fires has said is true, you don't see anything wrong with Deen's behavior in this context. Which demonstrates, in my opinion, that your posts shouldn't be taken seriously. It feels like a thinly veiled "pornstars can't be raped" argument, to be honest.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 5:47AM
@ pervetbrit The point is that if this acceptabted behaviour at Kink then that is the standard against which we should judge it (up to a point) If someone goes into a swingers party and a naked person accosts them, the person objects and the accoster backs off, its a different behavioral norm against which we should judge right and wrong /acceptable and unnacceptable than the same behaviour occuring e;sewhere.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 5:53AM
You havnt understood my arguement. He made an approach , was rebuffed and he backed off. This does not equate to a ""pornstars can't be raped" argument". This equates to a pornstars can experience untoward advances being made towards them , and the chance of this happening may be aggravated by the location being one that accomodates such behaviour.
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JB_X Deactivated User
addled 1500 Posts 10/12
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:03AM
I think you ought to read her account of the incident again. It wasn't a casual rebuff of a sexual advance. If you don't believe it, that's fine, but again, I think that's a disingenuous interpretation of her story.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:13AM
Jesus. In comparison with some of the stories and scenes that people have discussed, I remember a BTS clip (can't remember the exact video sorry) where Manuel chokes a female performer a bit too long and she freaks out. She recovers and apologizes and wants to continue the scene but Manuel refuses saying something about how he feels too bad to continue (he may even say 'I feel like a rapist, but don't quote me on it!) and the director agrees and the scene is over.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:31AM
@ jbx Dont get me wrong - Deen was wrong in an absolute sense - im just saying the heinousness of the situation might be mitigated by the context. Im not trying to excuse his behaviour rather contrextualise/mitigate it.
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pervybrit50 Deactivated User
473 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:45AM
We have no idea whether this is accepted behaviour at Kink & again I don't see how Kink would have any say over what happens outside of a scene when nobody in a position of power like one of the bosses or a director is around.
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pervybrit50 Deactivated User
473 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:52AM
An approach is asking somebody first, not just ramming your penis in them-that is sexual assault or rape.
According to the law, rape is a crime in itself, regardless of what happened before or after. Which means that your looking for an explanation, about something that happened a long time afterwards, makes no sense.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 7:37AM
Penis contacting female without asking does not necessarily equal sexual assault or rape (husband wife etc etc) - wether it constitutes sexual assault or rape depends on the particular circumstances. If the circumstances are that the female is non compliant then it is obviously defacto wrong but the wrong doing might be mitigable. For example - You speak in the library cos you see everyone else doing it , even the librarian but someone tells you off for speaking. You are wrong in an absolute sense , insofar as speaking in the library is wrong , but your wrong doing is mitigated by the pervading culture of talking that existed at the time of the offence.
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 7:40AM
You did not really get his post. His words stand true regardless of his guilt.
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 7:43AM
Good point.. Not sure where I read it but it looks like everyone has sex with everyone in the UpperFloor room or something
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 7:45AM
"If you asked for a condom on a shoot, you could be labelled difficult or a troublemaker and denied future work opportunities both with Kink and at other porn studios," How is this unfair? Fans like condomless scenes, so people who do that are hired again and again
Please tell me I've misunderstood you but regardless of marital status, it is still rape/sexual assault if one party does not consent. Marital rape/sexual battery may be treated differently by some but it's still sex/sexual contact without a party's consent. Your analogy of the library is a pretty lousy one frankly. I could get told off or thrown out of library for being a nuisance but I haven't committed a crime and I can still go to the comfort of my own home. If I'm in the vicinity of a gang rape, the "pervading culture" of multiple men fucking a woman without her consent isn't mitigating circumstances for me to join in. I would be horrified if that defence held up in court.
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 9:00AM
Bret Easton Ellis on James Deen Rape Claims: "A Ridiculous Witch Hunt" http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bret-easton-ellis-james-deen-847935 This site is fucking ancient..
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 9:19AM
Ok . Regardless of marital status. Man contacts woman with penis. No prior consent obtained prior. If the woman welcomes the contact do you still call this sexual assault / rape/ An example of this would be boyfreind going into shower with girlfriend and accosting her or etc etc , too many obvious examples.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 10:33AM
I was wondering if/when Bret was going to speak about this. Unfortunately, his thesis seems to be "Stoya's story is bullshit so the other stories are bullshit as well." Perhaps Stoya was lying, but in no way, shape, or form does that invalidate every other individual claim against Deen. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/12/2015 10:33:33 AM
well, but it's interesting because he's another person who knows her and he say she's a unstable person, and more important, he's another person mentioning the fact that Deen has in his phone messages of her threatining him with false accusations of rape. And mentioning also the fact that Stoya wrote the two tweets exactly the same day he was moving in the new house with Chanel Preston. I have to say that at first I was much more inclined to believe Stoya and all the other girls, but the more I discover about this story the more I don't know what to think. Edited by - leatherface on 12/12/2015 10:49:01 AM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 11:24AM
Let's say that I accept your premise that the culture of rape/sexual assault at Kink was pervasive enough to mitigate Deen's alleged behavior... To what end am I supposed to accept this premise? Am I supposed to accept Deen's behavior as "normal" since it was in the context of his surroundings, and dismiss Fires's allegations? Am I supposed to feel sympathy for him, in that he's being unfairly singled out for behavior that was considered acceptable at that studio? Am I supposed to ignore the implication that the environment at Kink was allegedly so accepting of rape/sexual assault? I have to confess I'm super curious where you're going with this.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 11:32AM
I could be mistaken, but I haven't seen anyone say that she threatened him with false accusations of rape. Plenty of people are interpreting it that way, and I'd even go so far as to say that's what the people (who are defending Deen) who mentioned it are trying to suggest, but that doesn't necessarily mean that if those text messages exist that they were false accusations.
James Deen @ Adult Empire
Posted - Dec 11 2015 : 5:35PM
