No i wouldnt agree with MrHs statement. Straw man maybe. But imo its more like hyperbole ; he says "honestly" but he dosnt really (honestly) think it, hes speaking with exageration for effect , to make a point ; the point iuuc is ; If we listen to and give credence to these frivolous complaints about "slapping and spanking" (consensual , on set and under direction) then it seems like people are discounting the legitimate right of directors to produce consensual rough ("slapping and spanking") sex. Its directed at people who cite (credit) the complaints of girls regarding "spanking and slapping during scenes" on set , consensual and under direction, because "she can't feel the cock of the guy then it doesn't work for her". It is not about rape. Cindy says ; "I really don't see how you can connect our condemnation of rape to hardcore sex scenes." Well MrH didnt. Did he ? He was refering to consensual , on set and under direction "slapping and spanking" and made no reference to rape. Every point Cindy makes is a straw man arguement based on the fallacty / misrepresentation that MrH was saying if you guys dont allow rape then youd probably prefer just missionary. When clearly that was not what he was saying. (that would be ridiculous) As far as i am aware nobody is arguing pro-rape. Just defaulting to rape slogans is like megaphone diplomacy - your not listening to what the other person is saying, your just repeating the party line rather than pursuing meaningfully discussion.
Ok. I've found the interview. It's in italian so I'll translate it with the automatic translator, be patient. This is Valentina about her personal Experience with JD: "I've worked with James Deen twice. The first time was a normal scene, without problems. The second time was on a set of Rocco. I'm not an actress who likes to turn violent scenes. We agreed on the scene and said to me, you take him in your lap (because I CAN take James Deen in my lap), you make fun of him a bit ', he fucks you ... I'd already told him that I do not like the pain, that such a thing was fine but not violent things on a physical level. An account is the psychological issue and another thing are the hits. According to Rocco I had exaggerated because I had offended him and so on, but it is not an excuse to do certain things. I had the feeling that he took seriously the fact that I was kidding. But the situation was simply to build the scene, certainly not a personal thing. He then, at the very beginning of the stage gave me a slap on the clitoris; I was lying on the couch and we were doing facesitting, and I was holding on the ground with his legs ... and he gave me this slap without notice. It was like starting the scene I'd gave him a kick in the balls. I think he assumed that I liked it. I pushed him, I got up and I gave him a slap in the face. We wanted to do just a beautiful scene, and I have analyzed it like it was a bit 'sexist thing: man you can say anything to me woman, but I can't make fun of you as a woman. I often provoke the actors on the set, I have fun with stereotypes, but simply because they do it with me. I do not see why I should not do it with them." And about what Stoya said: "And what do you think about Stoya statements? I think that's this way : he simply is an egomaniac who believes that just because he's James Deen he can push it over the limit, because he likes to have power and control over the other. Today I read a story of a chick who claims that he has abused her . But she did not say anything, did not tell him to stop. She claimed that he had not said anything because he is one that counts in the business. It is dangerous to start giving credit to people who throw accusations like this." This is because I LOVE Valentina so that there is no mistake in the interpretation of what she said in the interview. Edited by - Zondag on 12/22/2015 4:28:08 AM
People like me and you aka people with logic are a dying breed nowadays, it's sad. These feminist drones really like to think that they can control everyone's lives through their little internet blog pots and their anti-male vitriol posted all over YouTube, they live in an imaginary safe space full of rainbows Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner clones and unicorns where all men are hairless, soft spoken, 5'7, gay and deemed not to be any threat to the disease known as feminism, anything other than that is deemed to be a threat that must be destroyed, these things/people have a severe mental illness and they are not to be taken seriously in any aspect of life, what they really need is immediate nationwide assistance from medical pros and professional psychologists so we can put an end to this bullshit once and for all.
^ I have plenty of issues with what often passes for modern feminism, but delusional rants like that are unlikely to serve as any sort of meaningful corrective.
^^ such a stupid useless rant. Hilarious though I got lots of entertainment from the furious post. ----Dread's Twitter----
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 22 2015 : 9:10PM
People like me and you aka people with logic are a dying breed nowadays, it's sad. These feminist drones really like to think that they can control everyone's lives through their little internet blog pots and their anti-male vitriol posted all over YouTube, they live in an imaginary safe space full of rainbows Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner clones and unicorns where all men are hairless, soft spoken, 5'7, gay and deemed not to be any threat to the disease known as feminism, anything other than that is deemed to be a threat that must be destroyed, these things/people have a severe mental illness and they are not to be taken seriously in any aspect of life, what they really need is immediate nationwide assistance from medical pros and professional psychologists so we can put an end to this bullshit once and for all.
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Always smile with people who think they are the rare ones in the world who actually "know what they are talking about" :) You may want to consider that not liking Dean's behavior, or thinking a guy should stop when he is told to stop, does not make someone a feminist drone. I would never label myself one and think "feminism" has lost it's way long ago. If you want to be taken as someone who thinks with "logic" you may want to stop making silly statements like everyone who dislikes Deen is a mindless feminist and we must be calling for boring missionary style sex if you don't like a guy making our assholes bleed while we protest in pain. And I get it, you think continuing to be rough with someone after they say "stop" is ok. That is your choice. I just would like to caution you that if you do that in the real world you may face a consequence or two if you to it to someone who has the courage to report it. Just some advice for you. Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 12/22/2015 9:14:42 PM
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 22 2015 : 9:11PM
isn't it always the delusional ones that tell themselves they are the only logical ones in the gene pool :)
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 22 2015 : 9:13PM
You are going to run out of straw if you keep this up. This is where people like yourself lose some respect. There are different views on things; and discounting people who don't view it the same way as you just lessens your credibility. thinking you have all the answers and are logical and everyone else is making up stuff , using straw men, delusional, etc is just not going to work.
@ Mr Hardcore I think your ill-informed rant cost you what credibility or respect you think you had. As previously identified in this thread, feminism comes in many forms. To suggest all forms of feminism have anti-male agendas and to regard feminism as a sort of disease is utterly bigoted and sounds like fascism on your part, not to mention breathtakingly pompous with your proclamation that you are a dying breed of people with logic.
#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03
Posted - Dec 22 2015 : 10:07PM
Thanks, Zondag. I might have to watch that movie.
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Dec 22 2015 : 11:27PM
Curiouser and curiouser, on the IAFD main page, the slightly blurred background pic of Stoya has been replaced by a different pic and by a stock logo display.
Boycott James Deen, Silicone Is Evil, Razors Aren't Much Better
Nothing curious about it. The AVN Awards and XBIZ Awards posts have different backgrounds.
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Dec 23 2015 : 1:39AM
Indeed they do, I officially apologize for overreacting
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 23 2015 : 4:57AM
Of course everyone has different views and in the mix of civilised discussion i hope you feel that its ok for me to query your posting. Specifically The post you responded to (MR Hardcores) related to Zondags post about Valentina critscising James Deen for "slapping and spanking" her on set and because "she can't feel the cock of the guy then it doesn't work for her". The post you responded to expressed exasperation at "it's even gotten to the stage where people are now talking about him spanking and slapping girls during scenes" So the issue here is consensual , on-set , under direction sex, and the expression of exasperation that if such complaints are given credence to the effect that the girls sexual gratification takes priority it undermines the directors perogative to create rough ("slapping and spanking") scenes (or any scene where conceivably the girl wont maximise her pleasure). So can you explain your reasoning for making your response about rape and no means no ? Or if anyone else can explain the connect - please do so. Understanding the leap from discussing consensual on-set sex to rape is all i am trying to do. My feeling is that most people if they bothered to understand what was being said would actually agree that the director has the right to make the film he chooses , and the sexual gratification of the paid actors is secondary. It is not about rape.
Therein lays the problem here. Just as in Hollywood, where actors become legends and mythical people to those outside of their industry, the adult industry has the same problem and it is even worse because it is in a smaller community. 10 years ago I covered AVN for a now out of business magazine. I was invited to one of the after parties. Some of the others there, who I had known for a couple of years, began to recount in that very same suite a year earlier a very popular and well-known male star (name withheld) fucked two women in the bathroom at the same time. These were not industry women. These were two ordinary every day women who were invited and just ended up fucking this stranger in the bathroom. Now a lot of you are going to say that happens all the time, yes. But here's where the potential megolamania sets in, they "knew him". Just like when Hollywood actor randomly fucks some woman somewhere because he's a celebrity and it's just so thrilling to do so. Or a well-known golf pro does it at a Perkins diner for the same reason. It isn't always done because of "how hot he is". It's because that person is a celebrity. Given enough time ALL OF US would begin to let that sort of hero worship go to our heads. Valentina stood up for herself and told him "NO". I wouldn't be shocked if he had a look of astonishment on his face when she said so and then slapped him. The "fame" of being the porn star James Deen as gone to this guy's head and it doesn't help that it completely sounds like he was a mysgonist beforehand. In the 90s, long before the internet was what it is today, I knew tons of regular women who had heard of and seen movies with Rocco in them. These same women would giggle about wanting a dick that size and say "I would let him fuck me like he does in the porn movies". People quickly lose sight of it being a fantasy and allow it to become a very unhealthy thing. Heterosexual men love women. You find this out at an age a lot younger than most so-called experts even realize. From then on you look at a woman in a number of different ways, but it comes to the sexual it can be a million different ways. Girls realize even faster and think to themselves "they all want to put it in me". So they're guarded and careful about who they choose to have sex with in whatever form that sexual contact may be. Now that I have just horribly summed up men and women sexual behavior allow me to finish... So we now go into an industry where men and women are paid to have many different forms of sexual contact and intercourse. Now the rules are completely out the window for the people who never thought they applied to them in the first place. (I'll stick with the male point of view and try not to look like an idiot here). Men think "no matter how ugly I look I've got a big dick and they'll want it". We have all heard of the bullshit story James spins about wanting to have been a porn star since he was in 2nd or 5th grade or something. If that's true he's been looking at women as sexual objects HIS ENTIRE FREAKING LIFE! And because he "has a big dick" they've been letting him get away with shit. The more girls who talked in high school, the more shit he probably did with them. Then he goes into an industry where the FANTASY is for a woman to literally have her clothes ripped off and to "fuck her hard". The more popular he became in the adult industry, the more he pushed the envelope until he was doing exactly what turned him on sexually or just whatever the hell he wanted to do in the first place. Valetina said NO. Stoya said NO. Give it take and a lot more women will start raising there hands and recounting their experiences with him and hopefully exposing others who have done similar things.
@Ben Mockridge: I suggest to read the translated interview of Valentina, it explains really well what's happened on set and why she did get so mad, it seems that JD slapped her hard o the clitoris when she did make clear BEFORE the shot and with Rocco as well that she doesn't like this kind of pain.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 23 2015 : 11:04AM
If JD had been specifically told not to do something by Valentina and proceeded to do it and it wasnt a requiremnt of the director (rocco) then thats clearly out of line. Thats obviously very different from what we were initially led to understand ; "Valentina was talking about (of course) slapping and spanking, not touching. She said sometimes a spank can be good but if the scene is all about beating and she can't feel the cock of the guy then it doesn't work for her" which sounded like she was just unhappy that the director was making a rough sex film that wasnt sexually pleasurable for her and blaming her screen partner JD. Thanks for the additional info/clarification Zondag.
If they are terrorists, they have already shown the capacity to commit horrific crimes. That is why even Obama allowed due process for terrorists to largely consist of drone strikes.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 23 2015 : 11:59AM
I think we should move past this very OT discussion of terrorism and the IRA. Perhaps it can be continued through PMs or on a new thread.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 23 2015 : 12:00PM
Ok Missporn - this will be my last. I promise. It should be too obvious to have to point it out, but apparently not ; the Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) and Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) are quite distinct from the IRA, and Gerry Adams and Sinn fein have no association with either. I reiterate ; The website that you link to ; US State Department roster of Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations and Delisted Foreign Terrorist Organizations includes no mention of Gerry Adams , Sinn Fein or the IRA. You may not like it but it is a fact that Sinn Fein is the second largest political party in NI politics. And it is a legitimate political party not a terrorist organisation. And Gerry Adams is its leader. The US State Department roster dosnt support your claim. Because your claim is incorrect. Common sense would suggest that a recognised political party taking an active role in NI politics isnt a terrorist organisation. Edited by - ben mockridge on 12/23/2015 12:16:45 PM
MOD: White1970DodgeChallenger, I am sure that we can all agree that to all known degrees, Ben Mockridge is not a terrorist. Therefore let's stop linking to news articles from other countries and insinuating that he is a terrorist or whatever you are trying to prove here.
^ If that article that was written about her is any indication she had ZERO place to turn to. He's on the board of the organization that ferets out sexual abuse in the industry. She's dating him and had spoken highly of him in the past. Yeah, that's usually where drugs and alcohol usually come into place. It will take a strong woman to see this through. Not just in the social media realm, but in the courts as well.
In addition to whatsatelephonebill's response to that post, I replied enquiring how much more specific Stoya's allegation needed to be in the letter, at this stage when criminal proceedings had not been taken against Deen. Perhaps it's worth noting that "not being mentioned by many" is not the same as "interestingly ignored"?
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Dec 24 2015 : 8:29PM
it is interestingly ignored when he is on the very board that she would report to. Edit: And sorry whatsatelephonebill, I did look but obviously didn't see it posted.
^ That's a huge point I was trying to make. I think anyone on the board of this organization should be an inactive member and not currently in the industry. Would certainly help with any opinions that might not be objective.
Is she trying to fan the flames since the 15 mins have passed ? Nappi articulated my position on this issue better than I could.It gets difficult when people start accusing you of being his fan and defender with looking at the point that was being made. I always thought his aggression looked fake and too much of an act. Stoya has been attaching herself to right-wing feminism for sometime. As a fan, I noticed but did not bother too much. The people she associates with are usually the nutters that give feminism the negativity it has been associated with today. But people do it for their career or for positive PR relations. James Deen himself used the label to his career advantage. You would have to be an idiot not to I these circles, the bigger victim you are, the bigger your street cred. She even blamed her pill and alcohol abuse on him. The whole article reeks of self pity. I hope they release the data and the sales spike for the Trenchcoat site because of the publicity stunt she did.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 25 2015 : 1:45AM
Or I guess she could have just been following through with the statement she made nearly 2 weeks prior when she said she was going to clarify/elaborate on the situation on the 17th of December, which is exactly what she did.
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FlacFan Deactivated User
10088 Posts 8/15
Posted - Dec 25 2015 : 2:31AM
sparrow55 wrote: Is she trying to fan the flames since the 15 mins have passed ? Actually she posted them on her blog, and it wasn't after anything had "died down" it was less than a month later Stoya has been attaching herself to right-wing feminism for sometime...... James Deen himself used the label to his career advantage. You would have to be an idiot not to So Stoya's feminism is her reality and wanting improvements for her gender are bad. However when James does it strictly for business and nothing more it's smart and ok? Nice double standard. I these circles, the bigger victim you are, the bigger your street cred. She even blamed her pill and alcohol abuse on him. The whole article reeks of self pity. I would seriously argue that James has the higher profile, and on that basis I submit an Example: {insert name here} is in a relationship that also includes a work place scenario, said work being mainly driven by women. Your partner violates you horribly {yes i know, you are a big strong man} and it just so happens that said partner is respected and is also on the Grievance/reporting panel/board at your place of employment. You mean to tell me that you wouldn't have trepidation and worry over reporting the incident? I'd wager it would be even worse for a man, as studies have shown men are far less likely to report assault/abuse by a partner than women are. Your defense of this person really isn't logical. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think the secret pornstar network ganged up to "get" James. If it was that type of witch hunt, they'd have been far more likely to go after Nacho several times before this ever occured Edit: FYI: This is at least 3/4 of the reason why there are so many problems when it comes to police shootings: No Outside Review Board. It is impossible for internal review to find fault with one of its own unless the situation is so egregious that it cannot be ignored, and even then it sometimes is. Edited by - FlacFan on 12/25/2015 6:15:55 PM
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Dec 25 2015 : 2:44AM
Would you be implying that this attachment (as you call it), means she must be untruthful about James Deen? People you don't like or don't agree with can be raped... wackos can be raped...... liars can be raped.... drug abusers can be raped.. if you believe Deen because he is a cool guy or you think he treats women the way you love it, that is ok, it's your choice. But people need to stop using her personal affiliations, beliefs, or attitudes to make that decision.
Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 12/25/2015 2:46:02 AM
^ I think everyone in this discussion would agree that it would be right for Stoya or any other woman to complain about being raped, if this is true. No one is suggesting here that raped women should stay silent and not complain about it in public and in every other way. Which means that the only disagreement here is whether Stoya and other women like her have been raped or not. And this is something nobody here can know for sure one way or the other. Which makes this whole discussion pointless. When there is no proof, then everyone is entitled to have their own opinion about it. Edited by - Dan on 12/25/2015 5:06:45 AM
As I said to someone else here there's a great scene in the movie "JFK" that I think about when I read thoughts from people like this... "Why is it that because a woman is a prostitute she has to have bad eyesight". Meaning, just because she works in the adult industry she couldn't possibly be raped. This drivel you just wrote .... can I call it drivel.... is just more "blame the victim" mentality. Good luck with that!
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 25 2015 : 2:53PM
You did not even read my post FFS. You are talking about something entirely different. It is not even in the zip code. Not only, do I have to correct you, i will have to explain how you misunderstood my post, what my original intentions are only for you reply to me with an even dumber reply using cliches and platitudes irrelevant to the situation. Too much work. Also, replace the words raped in your post with lie.
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 25 2015 : 3:03PM
MOD: Would telling you to read the forum etiquette make you read the forum etiquette? Engage in conversation without calling the people who you disagree with idiots. Edited by - flash on 12/25/2015 7:18:20 PM
^ So this has gone from a conversation about a woman who has been allegedly raped, unfortunately I do have to say allegedly until charges are brought and a conviction is made ... so a conversation that was and should be about rape to one about politics.
^ There's really nothing to talk about anymore, unless some new accusations come out or someone gives some more detail on the current ones. And both James have Stoya have resumed using social media, and aren't talking about this at all.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 26 2015 : 5:04AM
Nowhere in that did i read the meaning to be " Meaning, just because she works in the adult industry she couldn't possibly be raped." Its wild and disconnected outbursts like this that seriously lessen the credibility of (im guessing) otherwise well intentioned individuals. The apparent mindset some people have that any questioning of the allegations , any slightest non-solidarity with stoya means the other person must therefore think rape is ok , or sex workers cant be raped, or is a rape sympathiser is not a coherent one ,and since most fair minded people do consider all the facts it only serves to alienate regular folk. Everyone agrees rape is wrong , sex workers can be raped , thats obvious. The rapist is to blame for the rape. However this fundamentalistic mindset that equates any critiscism of the victim with being a pro rape victim blamer also denies recognition of the vitally important role that women themselves have in ensuring their own safety (personal responsibility). They need not be victims - and that requires that we recognise there are good choices and bad choices so that we can encourage women to avoid situations where they may be harmed. Simply attacking any acknowledgement of female deficiency as being pro rape is injurious to reinforcing female behaviours that will reduce the risk of harm. So while the rapist is allways 100% to blame for the rape - what should be forefront in womens understanding is the critical nature of the choices they make and the importance of their own choices in ensuring their own safety. Like if you date someone who its an open secret is a sociopath and Joanna Angel is warning performers not to work with because ‘He likes to try to break women.’ , that is a questionable choice. While totally accepting the premise that the rapist is allways 100% to blame for the rape , it is at the same time important (for women themselves) to recognise the power to remain safe rests ultimately in themselves making good decisions. Better stay out of harms way than find yourself tweeting about it years later. Theres little consolation for rape in twitter. I firmly beleive women should be encouraged to ccw also.
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sparrow55 Deactivated User
82 Posts 11/15
Posted - Dec 26 2015 : 11:15AM
Do you still hold some kind of grudge or did you not read my post ? He saidAnd I replied it withIt was rude but not much more than the one it is replying to. Even then, I wasn't calling him one. It was making a point on insults about things you do not agree with. Him calling it drivel just so because he doesn't agree with it does not make it drivel. You seem to have no issues with such hostile posts, maybe because you agree with him ? Edited by - sparrow55 on 12/26/2015 11:17:48 AM
What exactly am I holding a grudge over? I read your post. You can try to now claim that you weren't insulting him but you clearly were. And I am rather sure you have been previously warned for this behavior in this thread before.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 26 2015 : 11:26AM
^^^ I don't think you're paying much attention to whom you're hitching your wagon. If you want to make the myopic, pedantic posts in defense of a pile of nonsense every time somebody replies to to someone and doesn't bother to go back and quote their entire history in the thread in order to give proper context, that your prerogative, but you're what is fairly obvious to most everyone else in the thread. It seems pretty clear that you aren't really trying to make a point, rather you're just hacking together some terribly flaccid attempt at playing devil's advocate, without even really having the wherewithal to commit to the position. That said, you've concocted yet another straw man in effort to fight some boogieman that isn't there. Dissent with Stoya and questioning the validity of her story aren't the issue with any of the Stoya supporters I've seen on here. The issue is with people that are simply throwing ad hominem attacks at her in an effort to undermine her claim, blaming her for not behaving in a manner they see fit as if that somehow excuses the allegations she and others have brought forth. If you can't see the logical fallacies contained within, then you have no business on here trying to point out the problems in other people's post. Edited by - murdock on 12/26/2015 11:26:48 AM
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 26 2015 : 11:46AM
^ If that was aimed at me ; I am not and i do not hitch my wagon to anyone - i judge a post on its merits not on whom its author is , something you should try. If you actually have a specific point re context, straw man, questioning the validity of her story, ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies or anything else please make it in a coherent , articulate and civil fashion. If your only interest is actually in making vacuous personal attacks on me please save your time, my posting style is my business and its not your job to determining whos place it is to post or not post and your opinin is consequently meaningless to me.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Dec 26 2015 : 11:55AM
^ It wasn't aimed at you, it was a reply to you. You had exactly one valid point in that rambling mess of a post up there and that was that Sparrow didn't insinuate that Stoya couldn't be raped because she is a pornstar. After that you completely went off the rails and went on some ill advised rant about victim blaming, and managed to do the exact thing you were complaining about and drawing some utterly baffling conclusion from a post when there simply wasn't anything there to support that assertion. If you feel anything in this or my above post was unclear feel free to let me know, and I'll repeat it with simpler language if necessary.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Dec 26 2015 : 12:01PM
So what specifically in my post do you disagree with ? edit - Use quotes - not your cockeyed misinterpretation of whats been said !
Edited by - ben mockridge on 12/26/2015 12:03:11 PM
