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James Deen @ AEBN| Author | Post |
|---|---|
| leatherface Senior Member 1258 Posts 7/07 |  Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 11:39AM[Link] |
| murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 11:58AM I'm not sure about Stoya's co-worker, but she's not really in a position to declare the threat false or not. Yeah she may have witnessed Stoya threaten Deen, but unless she said something to the effect of "I'm going to make up a fake rape accusation" it would be ambiguous at best. Anything else you're going to extrapolate from the threats will likely be the result of circular logic. [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 12:01PM [Link] |
| Ben Mockridge Deactivated User 382 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 12:15PM If you accept the premise of a culture at Kink castle where the idea of personal sexual boundaries is different from normal society then you are supposed to consider the case in this context. If the premise is true then it would be reasonable to ; Mitigate Deens wrong doing judged against the standards of behaviour that Kink allowed on their premises. So Deens behaviour might be considered less abnormal , and even normal if such behaviour was normal at Kink castle. I dont expect you too feel sorry for anyone i just expect you to evaluate thing logically , rationally and in a sensible manner that is fair to all parties. Deen behaved innappropriately and wrongly by standard societal norms, but he behaved less abnormally , even normally by the standards accepted in Kink castle. (remember that this is a standard where Kink directors allegedly fist virgins in the ass without consent) Where am io going with this ? - Deens guilt would be mitigated and Kinks partial culpability acknowledged. If a parent allows their kid to go round smashing peoples cars do we just blame the kid or do we blame the parent as well ? [Link] |
| murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 12:29PM If the kid smashed a car, ten the kid smashed a car regardless of the other circumstances surrounding it and leading up to it. Unless the kink castle is on sovereign ground then the laws of this country still apply regardless of what is considered normal within its confines. [Link] |
| leatherface Senior Member 1258 Posts 7/07 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 12:53PM Click to expand [Link] |
| Anonymous64 Senior Member 2694 Posts 2/14 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 12:56PM I don't profess to know anything regarding the above, but I believe that if such a thing exists, this could very well cover at least some of the reported on site occurrences. As the saying goes, be sure to read the fine print before signing! Follow @KhayaPeake On Twitter [Link] |
| leatherface Senior Member 1258 Posts 7/07 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 1:00PM There is other stuff that it's happened on stage that I would not describe as rape. There's the thing in the bathroom at Kink that I would not describe as a rape too. There are things that can be described as rough sex. This story is clearly complex, my impression is more that of a lot of lack of communication more than simply ten abuses. [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 1:27PM [Link] |
| White1970DodgeChallenger Member 406 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 2:39PM Not to mention that there are Kink sites like ElectroSluts, Fucking Machines and EverythingButt where condom/no-condom use is moot. The same applies to Girlfriends Films. Not to mention that there are performers who have made their entire careers strictly g/g, which also renders the condom issue moot. [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 2:39PM [Link] |
| White1970DodgeChallenger Member 406 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 2:44PM These women are individuals first and foremost. Some, like Amber Rayne, have an unbroken record of professionalism and non-involvement/non-engagement in industry/social media drama, which enhances their credibility. Others have rather different histories. [Link] |
| White1970DodgeChallenger Member 406 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 2:54PM From something Eli Cross posted here on ADT nine years ago:From what <iWanted</i performer and Best Scene nominee Jodi Taylor wrote on this situation:Long story short, however this plays out, James Deen is replaceable. The fact that he basically did Michael Whinestain's bidding, however inadvertently, in his interview with Aurora Snow and did a low-blow on Kink only reinforces that fact. [Link] |
| murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:35PM In the context of the text messages on Deen's phone, you claimed that people called those "false accusations" and that is incorrect. They simply stated that she threatened to make accusations. The people that have allegedly seen the text (rightfully) did not state the threatened accusations were true or false. Simply that she threatened to accuse him. [Link] |
| sparrow55 Deactivated User 82 Posts 11/15 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:37PM The film features the first-person narratives of individuals who describe their sexual assaults and then go on to describe the insensitivity of campus officials or police who did not vindicate their claims. At the Sundance festival première, which I attended, when an audience member asked what people could do to join the fight against campus sexual assault, one of the survivors featured in the film responded, simply, “Believe us.” It is a near-religious teaching among many people today that if you are against sexual assault, then you must always believe individuals who say they have been assaulted. Questioning in a particular instance whether a sexual assault occurred violates that principle. Examining evidence and concluding that a particular accuser is not indeed a survivor, or a particular accused is not an assailant, is a sin that reveals that one is a rape denier, or biased in favor of perpetrators. The ironclad principle that you must always believe the accuser comes as a corrective to hundreds of years in which rape victims were systematically disbelieved and painted as liars, sluts, or crazies. This history, along with the facts that sexual assault is notoriously underreported and that the crime suffers no more false reports than other crimes—and the related idea that only those actually assaulted would take on the burden of coming forward—leads many advocates today to the “always believe” orthodoxy. Edited by - sparrow55 on 12/12/2015 3:41:00 PM [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:46PM [Link] |
| Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User 1102 Posts 2/15 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:54PM Free and open debate can be scary and mean spirited at times; I still think it is healthy for it to run it's course. [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:56PM [Link] |
| Ben Mockridge Deactivated User 382 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:58PM "There are many, many stories of her irrational behavior ranging from punching a cat to threatening to falsely claim abuse to threatening to jump off the balcony." http://nevermorecollective.com/upset-and-plenty-of-vomit/ "Threatening to falsely claim abuse" . No ambiguity there. [Link] |
| daviangel Member Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 4:00PM Might've been different before viagra I remember a number of veteran male porn star's saying without viagra they would've been out of the business long ago.. [Link] |
| leatherface Senior Member 1258 Posts 7/07 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 4:02PM Edited by - leatherface on 12/12/2015 4:06:54 PM [Link] |
| leatherface Senior Member 1258 Posts 7/07 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 4:11PM [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 4:42PM [Link] |
| FlacFan Deactivated User 10088 Posts 8/15 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:35PM Boycott James Deen, Silicone Is Evil, Razors Aren't Much Better [Link] |
| Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User 1102 Posts 2/15 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:54PM As such, I have to lean on the side that something is wrong with him and this exposure is good for the industry. We can not dismiss anyone making a rape allegation even if they are a horrible person or have their own crappy reputation. It is not right to rape anyone, even if that victim is a horrible human being. And like someone else seemed to note ; just because you can make a case one person is lying doesn't mean you dismiss everyone else. It is always possible in cases of serial abuse some of the accusers are not on the level. That does not give license to throw everyone else out with them. Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 12/12/2015 6:56:34 PM [Link] |
| JigglyBoobs Senior Member 1614 Posts 3/12 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 9:16PM [Link] |
| murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 10:31PM In the context of the quote by leatherface that specifically referred to text messages on Deen's phone, which I have been very clear to specify throughout... she did not say that. Yes, she did say in general that Stoya as threatening to claim false abuse evidently (I think... your link leads to an error page) but unless she was there to witness it firsthand, and unless Stoya actually threatened to make up a false accusation, it is simply an assumption on the part of Shay Ryan whether the threats were regarding real or fake allegations.I mean that there is a big difference between someone hearing Stoya say "I'm going to tell the cops you raped me" and "I'm going to falsely accuse you of rape." If someone heard the latter, then yeah that is pretty damning, but I find it highly unlikely one would phrase it that was as I think the false accusation would be implied if she hadn't been raped. It looks to me like a lot of people are using circular logic to assume that she threatened to falsely accuse him because they already believed that he didn't do it. So yeah in that regard it is a pretty little detail because it adds no real context to the events. A woman who was raped might very well threaten to out the rapist, and a woman who wasn't raped might very well make up threats. Unless Stoya actually said she was going to falsely accuse him, the text messages on Deen's phone are much ado about nothing. It is not the piece of damning evidence some are making it out to be. [Link] |
| donzaloog Member 11 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 11:00PM Edited by - donzaloog on 12/12/2015 11:07:26 PM [Link] |
| JB_X Deactivated User addled 1500 Posts 10/12 | Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 11:41PM If 1, 2, and 3 are all true (and we don't know if they are, of course), then her decision to out him in the way she did at the time that she did does not strike me as weird, unbelievable, or inconsistent. It just strikes me as an emotional or psychological tipping point. [Link] |
| FlacFan Deactivated User 10088 Posts 8/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 1:28AM Boycott James Deen, Silicone Is Evil, Razors Aren't Much Better [Link] |
| donzaloog Member 11 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 1:33AM It completely undermines the very foundation of our justice system and reverse the burden of proof from the accuser to the accused. And let's face facts, the stain of a rape accusation never washes off. You can be proven innocent by every court in the land, have evidence as far as the eye can see, you will always be viewed as a rapist from that point on. The Duke Lacrosse guys are still catching shit for their false allegation to this day. And what of social responsibility? If I was raped by someone and I was fully aware that this person is dangerous, but I said nothing and that person went on to do it to other people, isn't that on my hands now? It certainly is. Now imagine that was a murderer, who I knew was killing and I said nothing. What would the police do if they found out I knew and said nothing after they finally caught this person after he/she'd killed 10 more people? I would most likely be charged for negligence. Some might say that the experience is so traumatic that they couldn't confront it and I understand, but ask yourself this: is your emotional state more important than getting a predator off the streets? If you think you feel like shit now, how will you feel knowing that other people were hurt and you could've stopped it or at least tried to before the fact? Edited by - donzaloog on 12/13/2015 1:35:02 AM Edited by - donzaloog on 12/13/2015 2:34:58 AM [Link] |
| Anonymous64 Senior Member 2694 Posts 2/14 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 1:44AM I just wonder how he managed to get nearly twice the nominations of the leading Female Performer?  Follow @KhayaPeake On Twitter [Link] |
| whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 1:53AM What IAFD did was to look at the nominated movies, and figure out which performer appears in more of them than anyone else. Because the top-end male talent pool is shallower than the top-end female talent pool, the top guys are more likely to show up in more of the top movies than the top women. [Link] |
| Anonymous64 Senior Member 2694 Posts 2/14 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 2:11AM When you put it that way, it does make sense. Follow @KhayaPeake On Twitter [Link] |
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| JB_X Deactivated User addled 1500 Posts 10/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 2:21AM Edited by - JB_X on 12/13/2015 2:22:59 AM [Link] |
| erik2690 Deactivated User 367 Posts 3/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 2:33AM [Link] |
| FlacFan Deactivated User 10088 Posts 8/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 3:02AM [Link] |
| Ben Mockridge Deactivated User 382 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 4:05AM Do we now agree that this is correct. Obviously i was just making a literal rebutal to someone elses literal assertion that penis contacting female without asking always constitutes sexual assault or rape - which iiuc neither of us interpret as being literally correct. (because as you observe consent may be implicit or implied) With reference to your point about implied or implicit consent , a notion usually associated as existing between lovers . Would you agree that , for example - at a swingers party where everyones fucking everone else there is some element of implied consent ? Edit - to avoid misunderstanding - (meaning ; implied consent for making an approach to female without asking or obtaining express permission beforhand - it is then obviously down to the woman wether she welcomes or rejects the advance but there is implied consent to make sexual advances) Edited by - ben mockridge on 12/13/2015 4:13:43 AM [Link] |
| JB_X Deactivated User addled 1500 Posts 10/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 5:24AM Also, rape accusations absolutely do wash off. Almost always, if you're famous enough, powerful enough, and good enough at what you do. Kobe Bryant, Mike Tyson, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Jackson, Woody Allen, Sean Penn, Roman Polanski, R. Kelly. That's off the top of my head, give me some time and I could dredge up dozens more. My point here is if your first instinct in a case like this is to immediately concern yourself with the accused's reputation, you're ignoring an overwhelming historical trend. [Link] |
| FlacFan Deactivated User 10088 Posts 8/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 5:51AM Edited by - FlacFan on 12/13/2015 5:52:53 AM [Link] |
| Ben Mockridge Deactivated User 382 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 6:06AM Yes no means no . Thats a given and is not disputed and is not the point being discussed (at least in the thread into which you interjected). The situation being discussed in the exchange into which you interjected is a sexual approach without prior consent - its acceptability and the role of infered/implicit consent on that acceptability (to the approach , anything more is obviously subject to further acceptance or rejection by the female) I suggest you read back to fully understand whats being said. [Link] |
| JigglyBoobs Senior Member 1614 Posts 3/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 6:19AM [Link] |
| Ben Mockridge Deactivated User 382 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 6:31AM With regard specifically to sexual advances without prior consent such as approaching a female with your penis exposed - at a swingers party where everyones fucking everone else is there some element of implied consent for that ? Edited by - ben mockridge on 12/13/2015 6:31:51 AM [Link] |
| Dan Senior Member 2056 Posts 6/07 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 7:31AM The reason for her using this word is probably because the guy is hurting her. Some of the porn actresses, who have complained about James Deen, had to go to a hospital for medical treatment after their scene with him. And this means that there was something drastically wrong with the way they were doing their scene to begin with. One thing that often concerns me in anal scenes is an apparent lack of visible lubrication for the lady and the guy. And if the guy is circumcised, then this in itself changes the mechanics of sex in such a way that it increases friction for the lady, which makes the possibility of injury for the lady even worse. Prevention is better than a cure. This a common saying that makes a lot of sense. And this is something porn-makers should think about long and hard, before they do their porn-scenes. Because all this trouble about Stoya's rape accusation possibly could've been prevented and avoided, if only they had used more lube and took more care, considering the fact that James Deen is circumcised, which increases friction for the lady. There is a reason why James Deen is the one who sent some porn-women to the hospital, but not someone like Manuel Ferrara. And this reason isn't how hard they bang their ladies. Manuel Ferrara bangs his ladies just as hard, if not harder. But one guy is circumcised and the other is not. And this might be the real reason why one guy is in so much trouble and the other is not. The circumcised guy is more likely to injure the lady. [Link] |
| donzaloog Member 11 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 8:10AM And those men you mentioned, they are still hunted by their allegations today, you know that for a fact. They may have been able to avoid jail time or convictions, but when their names come up, the subject of rape comes up. Polanski can't even come back to America iirc, Michael Jackson being an alleged child molester was the topic everytime his name was mentioned, it only eased up after he died. Tyson had to physically threaten a reporter who brought it up when he ran for mayor somewhere a few years back. Also note that this only applies to men who've been alleged to rape. You don't hear the mainstream media bringing up the fact that Lena Dunham openly admitted to molesting her sister all throughout her childhood and giving her shit for it. While Bill Cosby was losing gigs and his career ruined by mere accusations, people demanding his show be remove from syndication etc, Dunham admitted to her incestuous acts yet nobody was calling for her to lose her job. Her show ran until she decided to end it. She's still a feminist icon, still working as usual. I don't hear any feminists coming out saying "don't call Dunham a feminist" etc. She also falsely accused someone of rape in that book, dude had to literally threaten to sue her to get her to retract the printed story. Of course this was all brushed under the rug very quickly by the mainstream media. And "historical trend"? Please don't tell me that you're implying that because rape victims had a harder time being believed and getting justice in the past that they are somehow owed unquestioned support or belief today, because that's ridiculous. That's like saying "white people used to hang black people back in the day, so black people should be allowed to hang whites today". I'm not concerned with reputations, I'm concerned with the legal and social implications that come from the mentality of "always believe the victim no matter what" That mentality allows people to hear a rape allegation that has more holes in it than a sieve and take it to be the gospel truth. That's how cases like Jackie from UVA get believed. This girl claimed she was gangraped at a frat party, the guys threw her through a glass coffee table and raped her right there on the floor for hours. The logical reaction should be "How are you not dead?" "Where's the hospital records of you going to the hospital with serious blood loss and to get the shards of glass removed." Because if you get thrown through glass and then raped on the floor that covered in that same glass, you'd have serious wounds on your back, the back or your head, your hands something. So would your rapists have it on their feet, knees, etc.. Yet she was found later that night by her friends walking around campus with not a scratch on her. Of course, the story was published in Rolling Stone, got national media attention, the whole 9. Now a lot of people have egg on their faces and the credibility of future rape victims takes another hit. What I'm trying to say is that this is far too emotional a subject to be approached emotionally. People go full fucking retard when the topic of rape comes up. Approaching these subjects emotionally leads to people throwing logic out the window and going into "pitchfork and torches" mode. These things must be handled objectively by all involved, especially those in the legal system. [Link] |
| murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 8:46AM [Link] |
| JigglyBoobs Senior Member 1614 Posts 3/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 8:55AM At a swingers party, any self respecting organizer would set rules stating that by attending the party you accept there will be a lot of naked people and that you consent to people approaching you in the buff but it is of course your decision whether to consent to them touching you or engage in sexual activity. It's the same way that when you attend a sports/music event, as part of the audience you consent to being filmed at the event. I'm still curious what you appear to think this pervading culture is that mitigates James Deen, assuming that Stoya's allegation is truthful. As far as I'm concerned, consent had been withdrawn with no room for debate or confusion. If Deen's alleged action can be mitigated, not only does it set a dangerous precedent but it makes a complete mockery of the start of BDSM-oriented themes where the performer discusses the safewords to show that while she may be subjected to pain and discomfort, she is ultimately in control. It also gives more ammo to anti-porn activists who would have you believe the industry is unsafe for women. [Link] |
| donzaloog Member 11 Posts 1/12 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 9:13AM You built your own strawman then attacked it. A typical emotional response. Edited by - donzaloog on 12/13/2015 10:26:06 AM Edited by - donzaloog on 12/13/2015 10:26:57 AM [Link] |
| Ben Mockridge Deactivated User 382 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 9:30AM Yes we were talking about physical sexual approach without explicit consent - you then switched from talking about an advance that could be accepted or rejected in due course by the female to talking about mounting so you had kindof leapt from an approach situation to a full blown mounting situation , something quite different. So i thought i had better ramp it down to what couldnt be misinterpreted - a guy approaching just with his penis exposed. But you are right we should go back to physical contact - but so we are both clear what we are talking about and npbody will leap forward to mounting, here is out situation ; A guy arrives late at a swingers party , there is no written rule book but it rather runs on an unspecified etherally accepted common standard. In reality its hedonism unchained , communal bathrooms , everyone having sex, fistings , etc etc everything you would expect at a swingers party. So our man sees a girl he likes and wanders up behind her and taps her on her butt-cheek with his penis to kinda get her attention and see if she is interested , to see if she is consenting to go further - in this context is this physical approach sexual assault ? The girl can obviously either accept or reject the advance - but is the advance in itself constituting sexaul assault ? Edit - Fyi Jiggly - this specifically relates to the Ashley Fires case and specifically the arguement for mitigation that i made on the previous page , dont know if you read it but thats the origin of the example , that might otherwise apear an odd example to come up with. Edited by - ben mockridge on 12/13/2015 9:51:53 AM [Link] |
| FlacFan Deactivated User 10088 Posts 8/15 | Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 10:39AM The second anyone, uses a safe word the game is over, that's why they are called safe words. It was agreed on, she used it, end of story. It matters not if there was implied consent or if they'd done the scene/act 5 million times. That word stops everything in it's tracks. It has to, if it does not the dominant has completely lost all trust with their sub/partner. I'd wager at least half the reason why she was so late in saying anything was the complete shock at being violated like that. Nothing - repeat nothing - over-rules safe a word. It cannot. Any discussion about implied consent is rendered moot after the sub uses it. According to Stoya she did. Game Over. [Link] |
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