If it's true that those girls were offered to be in Lex's BREAST FEST in 2013, then that's shows that it's not strictly money that got them to do IR because girls were getting paid more to do IR back then also. I also don't think like some do that most of the girls in the biz who don't do IR right away have a problem with black men or see them in some sort of negative light. That's silly. What exactly happens with that scenario? They had problems with banging a black dude then a black guy saves their dog or something then suddenly their mind about black men changes and they're willing to bang them? Porn girl: "I've always been against having sex with a black men but one day I had car trouble and a black guy helped me and I was so greatful I decided it was okay to fuck big black dick!!". Since that probably isn't the case, it all goes back to a girl looking at her porn career as a business and making business decisions to make her time in porn last as long as it can ala'... PACING. Knowing/planning for the day when the work/offers start to slow down and they need that new thing to do that will generate some buzz and grow their audience and extend their career. Not because they are just horrible people who have something against banging a black guy. Not because they are greedy girls who will suddenly do something they didn't want to do for big bucks. Most girls have a plan. Some fans get bent out of shape because that plan doesn't move fast enough for them or they don't agree with it but the girl has to do what they think is best for them. Most fans don't care about or supports a girl's career other than getting what they want to see from the girl so anyone trying to build a career based on what "fans" want is career suicide in many cases because fans don't have the girl's well being in mind. Not every girl's pacing plans are the same and some have always planned to do IR fairly soon. Some of those girls who planned to do IR early in the game take advantage of the bigger payday and some don't. Some are holding back on IR anal or an IR gangbang until they feel their career needs a boost. Some girl's plan is to hit the ground running and do as much stuff as they can and generate a lot of buzz and see what happens. All these plans are valid and some will work well for some and for others not so much. Eva Notty isn't the same type of performer Adrianna Chechik is, so they need to plan things differently and make different types of career planning choices.
^ I agree with some points you made. Go back to the point I made not 1 but 2 girls apparently turned down offers for a shoot correct? Do you agree with this yes or no? If it's true that those girls were offered to be in Lex's BREAST FEST in 2013, then that's shows that it's not strictly money that got them to do IR because girls were getting paid more to do IR back then also. ^ You have got to be kidding. What makes you think that? I would think they turned it down because the offer was not enough or simply just leave this as the last thing to do if things get desperate. This could very well be a career boost/buzz for a year or two depends on the girls next move. most of the girls in the biz who don't do IR right away have a problem with black men or see them in some sort of negative light That's silly. ^ I agree Kacey Jordan comes to mind when I think about something like this. Last thing is there any chance you can be objective? No one is below praise and No one is above criticism how hard can that be? I am not saying for you to say F this and F that no just simple be objective dude Jesus Christ Edited by - Alexis_sanchez on 7/16/2016 9:23:17 AM
^ wouldnt say interesting but more of "confirming the common stereotypes against dodgers." The full out hardcore girls that saved interracial for the exact last act seem to be a dwindling demographic, Carter Cruise(who I am not calling a dodger) is probably the most recent prominent girl to fit this mold. But in the older days, it was mainly milfs on their way out the door that needed one last big paycheck. The two Rachel's and Ms. Texas are the likely faces of this group but they are rather vanilla performers anyway, but the fact remains that they will only do it for an inordinate amount and they likely know that no producer, not even Jules, will cave to such ridiculous demands. The second group can also apply to Carter Cruise as well. You get booked for a, b, and c with no problem but cant squeeze a black guy in the schedule? Kristina Rose had this problem and received a ton of backlash when she was already getting her first few anal scenes, quite early in her career, done and didnt do any scenes with a black guy yet. Saw a similar situation with Abella Anderson, maybe got two professional scenes done with a black guy despite being active for about 6 years and yet all of her amateur content is solely with black guys. Kinda plays up to the whole "buddy-buddy" myths between agents and directors and that directors shoot who they feel like When I see all the girls that guys like Mick, Manuel, Wood, Keiran, and Adriano get as compared to Lex, LT, and whoever else is out there directing their own content(I will never count Mandingo as a "director"), I sit back and laugh at how entitled some fans are with their work(or "lack of. Fans demanding DPs and gangbangs and rimming and all the extra stuff right out the gate, I'm sitting here like, "can I just get a regular b/g vag scene with girl A and black guy at some point this decade?"
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 16 2016 : 8:40PM
Agreed.She explained her reasons in detail, including on this thread.She explained that this was due to issues with her family, which she did not elaborate on (LCF and I discussed that on this thread).Agreed, but I'm happy that I don't have to ask that question ("can I just get a regular b/g vag scene with girl A and black guy at some point this decade?") much at all now.
If the money wasn't enough when they were at their peak of popularity then why would money suddenly be the deciding factor later in their career after their star has begun to fade? It would seem they would've made more doing it back then when they were popular. If they were only doing it out of desperation then money wouldn't make much difference. If they were truly desperate they would do the scene at their regular rate because they'd need to do IR to stay in the game."Objective"?! If by "objective" you mean shitting on a girl, hating on a girl, and making up scenarios to put her down because she doesn't handle her career or make decisions based on what I've decided she needs to do when I think she needs to do them? If that's what you mean by "objective" then I'll never be "objective". I'm sure there are girls in porn who just look down on black men as lowering themselves to bang them but I think if those girls exist they are a very small minority. I think the majority of the girls who haven't done IR yet will have valid reasons (although fans may disagree). Because we've heard waaay more stories about girls not doing IR because of management or the people around the (as Lex pointed out in that interview) rather than out of some sort of hatred towards blacks and sometimes things change in their lives that suddenly makes it okay to do IR. The girls who newer girls who accept or want more money to do IR are just taking advantage of the present state of porn to make as much as they can in a struggling business. It's not like they are breaking any laws by doing so. It's not like they are making a strong stance for more money. It's become a common thing and some choose to go with it or take advantage of it while they can. So yeah, I will always give a girl the benefit of doubt until I hear directly from her something that makes me feel she has a problem with blacks. And even if a girl did do that I wouldn't care much because that's her problem and this is a free country. Too much real life drama happening out there to get all worked up over a pornstar who hasn't done IR.
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Zy28 Deactivated User
251 Posts 2/12
Posted - Jul 17 2016 : 7:10PM
Not really. It may be a simple case of their racism being overruled by their desire for money and extending their career length. As for girls having a plan I think you assume a lot of forethought where there isn't much. Most girls hop into porn at 18 or 20 or 22 and simply want to make a lot of money as quickly as possible. That's part of the reason most porn careers only last 6 months to a year. And if their career takes off then it becomes about going with the flow for as long as possible until the money/bookings dry up. Now for some girls like Alison and even Nikki Benz who are from the old guard of girls, they were used to other girls dodging Black men until their careers dried up almost completely, which is why Nikki waited until I think year 11 of her career and Alison waited until year 6 or so. But the new crop of girls don't have the race issues, or they're not as significant for them, and accordingly they start out in year 1 or 2 of their careers doing such scenes and that added to the pressure on the old guard of girls and led to them going ahead and doing them now. Edited by - Zy28 on 7/17/2016 7:11:43 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 17 2016 : 8:05PM
What's you reason for believing that a pornstar's decision to wait or not wait is simply about "race issues"? In light of the discussion on the previous page, I'm also wondering what the role of agents is in your theory.
Draxxx Let me guess more assuming from you right? Short and quick agree to disagree on this topic that is all. Edited by - alexis_sanchez on 7/17/2016 10:11:21 PM
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 1:24AM
'racist'What reason do I have to believe other? It's absolutely a racial issue, because they consciously choose NOT to work with black males. Not saying it's 'racist', but the conscious decision NOT to perform with man of dark hue is injection race into it.
isn't it simply because dodgers (the hot/popular ones) generate more IR sales than lesser known girls who do IR straight away? I'd imagine Alison Tyler's IR debut will generate more sales than if she did it soon after her first B/G. Or is this not true?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 2:04AM
^^So pornstars aren't shooting IR earlier because of changes in the business, but because as individuals they are personally more racially progressive than pornstars pre-Blacked era? LA Direct, traditionally notorious for its IR avoidance, now has multiple pornstars available for IR. Are to we attribute that to a moral change in Derek Hay as well? Sorry, but I don't buy it. Porn is a business. If things have changed, and thankfully they have (perpetual waiting is no longer en vogue), I'm going to look for a business explanation first and foremost. To the extent that personal racism or a lack of personal racism plays a role in all of this, it seems to me that that role is limited. You brought us Lex's interview, no? He made it clear that how the IR game is played is a business issue, and he has reiterated that over and over and over again. Undoubtedly some pornstars and agents are personally racist, and plenty are probably not, but I don't see any evidence that those personal views are what constitute the driving force here.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 2:13AM
^^^For the life of me, I don't know how you can go through the trouble of posting what Lex said and just ignore it. You're ignoring what you posted. Lex explains in detail how this is all about money, you post that explanation, and yet you still seem to be oblivious.
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Zy28 Deactivated User
251 Posts 2/12
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 4:09AM
Well when you have girls who equate working with Black talent to anal, gangbangs, dp, and other physically difficult scenes it's clear race is the issue. I know Kimmy Granger stated that it was on her no list and lumped it in with "acts" that are physically difficult for female talent like anal and gangbangs. Then you have the opposite issue, where you have a girl like Jynx Maze who does every act imaginable and then draws the line at working with Black males. The common denominator in those cases and with other girls is race. As for LA Direct, Derek probably hasn't changed his views on race, but he's probably had to bend to the realities of the business that have changed in just the past 5-7 years. But even with that I'm sure he still tries to tell new girls not to work with Black talent and succeeds in convincing the ones who don't know any better. Edited by - Zy28 on 7/18/2016 4:29:52 AM
Agents. Agents. Agents. When a girl enters porn she usually has an agent. That agents will make suggestions as to what that girl should do. Just because a girl's career doesn't last long doesn't mean they entered the biz thinking their time in porn will be short. Also doesn't mean her agent will treat her like she's going to be in short term and let her just do whatever without giving their input.So no one plans their career and choices? They all just go with whatever happens and hopes for the best? So the girls who've had long and/or successful careers are just lucky?Nikki has said several times her management kept her from doing IR. When she got new management she not only started doing IR she wanted to do it in a big way. It's silly to think Nikki had a problem with black guys because she's a huge fan of hip hop. And when she started doing IR she had a list of guys she really wanted to work with. That doesn't sound like someone who has a problem with black men.The porn industry is very different now than it was years ago. Lots of it has to do with what's popular and how IR porn is viewed by agents, fans, and the girls. I don't think their personal views on black men are really that different but what they do in front of the camera has.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 10:26AM
^^As I'm sure you know, the equation of IR with anal, etc. is a business reality. IR is objectively not a regular b/g within the industry, regardless of whether a pornstar would like it to be or not. Now, of course some pornstars don't shoot IR for personal reasons, but what interests me is the normative deciding factor, which appears to be career/money. That's why I agree with you that Hay did not have some magical change of heart. The Blacked effect is real. The business has changed and he's reacting to that because he's businessman. As for his "new pornstars", they're shooting IR in their first year. Whatever his personal view of interracial sex is, the need to make money is what's primary.
So if I do not want to shoot/perform with a heavier female(fat chick) then I am a body shamer and if I do not want to shoot a scene that calls for man on man than I am a homophobe and if I do not want to shoot a transexxual scene I am opposed to equal rights...WTF...what if you flat out are not attracted to a "type" or "color" then you are a racist or bigot? I am confused. So every girl must want to have sex...no they must have sex with people of any other color or sexual orientation to be okay then? Or they must have a biological problem such as I don't know Black Ivy where they develop hives and or worse physical conditions? Or maybe Quasar should approve all excuses so as to weed out these racists, homophobes and chauvenists...that sounds like a good plan since he has all the prerequisites needed such as the ability to know what every person is thinking or not thinking? Hell why not take away a woman's right to choose their partners and just make it easy...start em with Shane Diesel, Mandingo and that way we know they are not racists and it also will allow them to be properly stretched out for their long term commitment to doing porn. #whitepussymatters...LOL....this PC shit is really just people who can't get what they want shaming people to do what they may not want to do...you hear that all girls in the western hemisphere...you must fuck every type of person or else you are not cool...just ask Mike Quasar
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 11:16AM
Are you implying that the women and men in porn only shoot with people to whom they are attracted?
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 12:44PM
Well It looks like Jynx " It's complicated" Maze will be finally tasting chocolate Edited by - Diamondjackman on 7/18/2016 1:00:02 PM Edited by - Diamondjackman on 7/18/2016 1:00:30 PM
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 12:47PM
It's definitely a "racial" issue. I stated quite clearly in the previous post that the distinction is not necessarily "racist" but as soon as someone chooses not to do something because of race, even as you say, because it's a "business" decision, it's still injecting race into the equation.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 12:53PM
^Remember what I was responding to. Zy28 made a specific claim: Newer pornstars are shooting IR earlier because, unlike the pornstars before them, they "don't have the race issues, or they're not as significant for them." So pornstars aren't shooting IR earlier because of changes in the business, but because as individuals they are personally more racially progressive than pornstars pre-Blacked era? Well?
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 1:09PM
^Good question. I think what he said about the "Blacked effect" is certainly a plausible explanation. But remember girls like in 2005-2012 no-IR girls like Rachel Roxx, Rachel Starr, Madison Ivy, Alexis Texas, Abbey Brooks, Audrey Bitoni, Vicky Vette, Puma Swede, Taylor Rain, Missy Stone, Carmella Bing, Vanessa Lane, Shy Love, Cody Lane?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 1:19PM
^What about them? Remember LA Direct's anti-IR reputation? It seems that by and large this isn't about individual personalities and how they feel about blacks, but about business.
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druidblackangel Deactivated User
20 Posts 6/15
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 1:30PM
No the implication is not that everyone you have sex with is attractive to you, God knows I have been on either end of that sentence, its that I do not think its fair to always insinuate that race card is the "real reason" for all performers and even if someone does wait to get a bigger payday for that scene-why not? Making more money in a business where the lifetime is even shorter than it has been even in the past is smart. I just hate that people think the worst when it comes to why someone does or does not do something and then waiting to make more money by holding firm until demand and price intersect. That's just capitalism. I do agree the whole interracial subfield is silly and will hopefully one day be a thing of memory, but until that day or when companies don't pay a premium for that-then a person has to do what they have to do in the short amount of time they are doing porn. And yes I know there are racists and I also realize its not just a white not doing black thing, but race shaming someone into doing something they may not want to do and then equivocally stating that its "racially motivated" with the emphasis on someone's racial intolerance.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 18 2016 : 2:21PM
^I agree with most of what you wrote there. The intention behind my question was to reiterate the difference between having sex for money as part of your job and having sex in ordinary life, although as you mentioned even outside of work people don't necessarily only have sex with those to whom they are attracted.
^^ Which makes the funny thing (and Lex points this out in his interview as well), that if we're talking lifetime earnings, most girls would/will make more money from doing it earlier in their career than doing it later. With the basic reasoning being the difference in money that you make for your first time would be made up for by the extra interracial shoots you do during your career (which are usually shoots that wouldn't have happened otherwise). Agents (and performers) get blinded by the check for the first and never think about the lifetime earnings.
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
I felt a need to revisit this thread after reading the recent Axelbraun Productions and Sineplex threads. I find it fascinating that paying talent the same rate regardless of the race of the man in the scene is framed again and again as exploitation, but that word doesn't come up in threads where talent aren't getting paid for work they've done. How is not paying for services rendered less exploitative than paying the same rate for b/g, regardless of race? Where are all the passionate white knights when talent really are being exploited? Mad respect for anyone involved who can admit it was either a dog whistle or subconscious racist narratives at play.
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Dragon Sign Deactivated User
3381 Posts 12/13
Posted - Sep 10 2016 : 6:13PM
Maybe this should be considered as progression and shit like that, too. Who goes straight to heavy lifting, well they who wanna disappear fast.
Do IR dodgers have travelled all the way to Japan to do hardcore scenes such as Alexis Texas, Mia Malkova and at one point 10yr dodger Ashley Fires amongst many others charge Asian guys more? Especially considering the high travel cost?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Sep 11 2016 : 1:42PM
^As far as I know "dodgers" shoot in Japan for the same reasons as other pornstars do. I'm not aware of any reasons for shooting in Japan that are unique to "dodgers." Edited by - misspornUSA on 9/11/2016 1:43:14 PM
^ That doesn't answer my question at all, [mod edit: comment removed. See the ADT forum etiquette - "Adult DVD Talk is a Friendly Community. Treat fellow posters as neighbors. Please be respectful of each other and each other's threads. If what someone has posted angers you, wait until you calm down before you respond or simply don't respond."] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 9/11/2016 3:20:15 PM
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JackSparrow Deactivated User
7235 Posts 7/11
Posted - Sep 11 2016 : 1:53PM
reason many girls fly to japan for porn ,is plain and simple good money for it ,and they surely pay for all the extras aswell like plaintickets and hotel.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Sep 11 2016 : 2:47PM
^^I didn't answer your question because it was based on the false presupposition that "dodgers" have a unique reason for shooting in Japan.
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Zy28 Deactivated User
251 Posts 2/12
Posted - Sep 12 2016 : 1:04AM
I think maybe they get paid a bit more, but it's probably not that much more. So I'm not sure there's much upside for them to travel all the way to Japan yet dodge domestically. And I know Nicole Aniston was another girl who flew to Japan to do similar scenes.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Sep 12 2016 : 1:29AM
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Shooting in Japan has no apparent relevance to the issue of "dodging" or American IR. If Keni Styles were Japanese rather than Thai, and these "dodgers" refused to work with him despite shooting with Japanese men overseas, then we'd have something to talk about.
APAC Issues Statement on 'Racial Inequality' Although it is common practice to vary scene rates on performer experience and scene content, it is APAC's position that paying a performer less based on his/her race or charging a higher rate to work with performers of another race is unfair and unethical.Treating a performer's race as a determining factor for pay is a violation of performer rights as well as a violation of federal workplace discrimination laws. APAC is aware that using race as a determining factor in work and pay rate has become common business practice. However, we feel this must change in order to create better work environments in the industry. Although APAC supports and respects the personal choices that performers make when it comes to rates, scene partners and types of scenes to work in, we feel choosing to work with someone based on race as a business practice has a negative impact on the performer community. It is important to keep in mind that scene partners are not simply personal sex partners on set; they are co-workers. It is not an acceptable practice in any other industry to choose who someone works with solely based on race. With the intent to protect the rights of performers and also create safe and positive work environments, APAC seeks to encourage performers, producers and agents to do their part in creating a comfortable, professional work environment that does not violate the rights of workers on set. We also ask you to consider how the choices you make may affect other performers and the community overall. Again, although you have the right to the choices you make, we ask people to consider the consequences your choices have on the integrity of our community as well as our peers. APAC believes in creating work environments where performers feel they are treated fairly and with respect, and with our new position we hope to lead the way in changing adult film industry business practices that do not fall in line with creating better environments for all performers. This isn't directly about waiting to shoot first IR for a bigger pay day, but it does speak to the idea of charging more for IR, and the two concepts are at least somewhat related, though they are different things.
^ That statement hits at the heart of the issue for me. While, in general, I've come to the conclusion of "don't knock the hustle" when it comes to the first paydays especially, it's always been in conflict with the fact that there's no other job out there where you can flat out refuse to work with someone solely on the basis of their race and that's an okay thing to do. Even in the rest of the entertainment industry. The sex industry, in general, is the only place where that's allowed.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 4:34AM
As an independent contractor you can refuse to work for or with anyone, for any reason, regardless of what field you're in. Are most porn performers not operating as independent contractors?
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 5:22AM
^ Bingo. Comparing being a performer in porn with your average 9-to-5 job is illogical.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 9:55AM
^The statement is talking about what performers, etc. should and shouldn't do from an ethical perspective and for the common good of adult performers. That they can do otherwise is not at issue. I don't see anything in the statement that indicates that APAC views performers as not having the ability to act contrary to their suggestions.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 9:58AM
^^^^^Charging more for the average IR scene is one thing, but if APAC is going to talk about fairness and ethics they should also acknowledge that it is neither fair or ethical for a producer to make a killing on a first IR while only paying a pornstar her average b/g rate.
Not if it's a federally protected group (race and sex being the two biggest ones). You couldn't be arrested, but you could be sued for discrimination. It would never happen because it would be way too hard to prove damages, but that doesn't mean it's completely clear in the eyes of the law. And at least one division of the state of California doesn't consider them independent contractors. Because that was one of the first arguments that they presented to Cal-OSHA regard their blood-borne pathogen rules, and that was quickly shot down.Okay, let's not compare it to a 9-5 job. Let's compare it to one of the jobs that it is closest to. What do you think the reaction would be if any stage, TV or movie actresses refused to work with actors of a different race? Or asked for more to take a role because they had to act opposite someone of a different race? Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 9/20/2016 8:04:27 PM
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croro11 Deactivated User
26 Posts 7/13
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 10:23AM
If you make a category based on racial difference and describe it as "step-up in career", it is so normal.
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 1:12PM
I support this 101%!!! Logically it follows that they'd also have to stop charging a higher rate or outright refusing to work with performers based on gender. Charging more for anal should also be seen as homophobic, or at the very least as culturally insensitive. NO DODGERS ALLOWED! #allpervsmatter ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 9/20/2016 6:10:22 PM
