It's not totally fair question. People in real life usually have sex with people they have some attraction to. Porn is a job. Part of the job is to have sex with people you might not usually have sex with in from of the camera. It's a performance. Every porn performer is different and has their own set of rules on what they will and won't do but I would think the best performers are the ones who enjoy sex or the act of performing without getting hung up too much on who their partner is other than if that person is professional. If all pornstars only did it with guys they're attracted to most girls would only work with one or two guys or not do porn at all. But they're performers so they have sex with guys they wouldn't have sex with in their personal lives and do sex acts they probably aren't into in their personal lives. They have sex on days they probably aren't really in the mood. They react to the sex in ways they probably wouldn't react in their personal lives. They wear clothes they wouldn't usually wear in the personal lives. That's all part of being a performer and being professional. Also, I tend to think more favorably of girls who hold out for a bigger payday or even hold off on IR until they are "used up" because I see those as legit business decisions. The girls who do those things are at least okay with having sex with a black guy even if they aren't really into black men. The girls who just refuse to have sex with a black guy for any reason clearly has issues with black men if they can't even put up with having sex with them for the extra money or to help their career. But at the end of the day I still say it's okay if they don't want to do IR. Girls are free to have sex or not have sex with whoever the choose whenever they choose.
^ You misattributed that quote. Roscoe said it, not Snowbunny.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 22 2017 : 4:53AM
That was a redirected quote as @whatsatelephonebill said. But too your point, there are MANY examples, both past and present that run counter to what you call a "legit business decision". Tori Black? Belladonna? Jada Stevens? Edited by - Snowbunny Sorcerer on 5/22/2017 4:56:38 AM
Sorry I attributed the quote to you if you didn't say it. Anyway...I didn't say saving IR for later or accepting more money for IR is the right or best career move or that many girls didn't/don't go that route. I just see it as a legit business decision. You or other people may see it as a bad thing but it's still a business choice regardless.
there is a difference between waiting to do ir when your popularity is at its peak(probably around year 5 for most performers, give or take a year) and then waiting until you really are washed up to do ir. Alexis Texas should've done ir 5 or 6 years ago but she's an exception in that if she still did ir today it would be huge. most other girls I'm not interested in seeing it after a certain amount of time, even if they do eventually do it. Gracie glam for example. if she does ir now she doesn't have nearly the star power she had a few years ago. especially the high turnover rate and so many girls doing ir earlier. also, the "would you fuck black guys?" argument is weak as hell, for obvious reasons.
Holding out may be a good business decision for a very few. Jinx Maze seems to have made a pretty little profit from Blacked.com and seems to cut back on doing scenes since getting fucked by Joss Lecaf.
^ Jynx has consistently had periods of time where she isn't shooting many scenes at all followed by like 2-4 months of shooting a bunch of stuff. So the fallow period right now isn't really anything out of the ordinary.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 23 2017 : 6:34AM
The examples I cited + and a zillion more, runs counter to those seek to "wait for a bigger pay day", if it weren't as you say, then the likes of Tori would pretty much have no other option then to do the same. Tori and the like, have obviously been more profitable is the way they went about business because they shot way more scenes than those like Nikki Benz. It all adds up.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 23 2017 : 6:45AM
Where? Shooting ONE measly scene for BLACKED is going to amass nowhere near as much as shooting 50-100+ scenes over coarse of ones's career like Jada, or Kelly, or Sophie, etc is going to make you more money???
Edited by - Snowbunny Sorcerer on 5/23/2017 6:47:09 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 23 2017 : 11:29AM
^^None of what you wrote contradicts the legitimacy of the decision to wait. The distinction to be made here is between the decision to never shoot with black men for personal reasons that have nothing to do with business (an illegitimate business decision) and the decision to wait to shoot with black men on the advice of your agent or because you believe it is a good career strategy (a legitimate business decision). Now, as to the separate question of whether or not or in what cases waiting might be a smart business decision in addition to being a legitimate one, that's been discussed a number of times on this thread. For example, there's a discussion of that which began on page 37 and continued onto page 39.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 23 2017 : 1:15PM
^Well, name a pornstar that did it better than the names I listed via "waiting to shoot IR for a bigger pay day" vs. shooting IR indiscriminately. Edited by - Snowbunny Sorcerer on 5/24/2017 3:27:26 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 23 2017 : 1:38PM
^Now, as to the separate question of whether or not or in what cases waiting might be a smart business decision in addition to being a legitimate one, that's been discussed a number of times on this thread. For example, there's a discussion of that which began on page 37 and continued onto page 39.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - May 23 2017 : 4:35PM
Exactly! The same would be true IRL. Its no different than a guy wanting to have a threeway with his wife or GF. The guy will pressure his wife to do another girl, but the minute she throws it back at him about crossing swords with another guy he'll be back pedaling real quick.
Eh I don't think it'd be too popular. Most people are aware of Alexis' position and it's so controversial that at this point it would come off as too little too late and a move done to get people off her back, not a decision made because she just wanted to do it. And I agree the time for her to have done it was about 5-6 years ago. As for waiting as a general business decision. Most careers in the industry only last 2 years or less. So actually a girl would be better off doing such scenes earlier before they quit and before other girls come into the business and reduce their status. Furthermore, it's best to do the scenes earlier because they can do so at the peak of their popularity and leverage that to greater profits and possible career longevity.
Jade Amber said she was offered $3,000 for first IR scene from former agent, she found that offensive, and refused it. She thinks she should get way more than that. It's pretty crazy how a chick is pretty new, and i bet a lot people may never even heard of her, can command that much. She was with hussie models, and a lot of girls from blacked are used from there i noticed. I'm guessing that is what a lot of the newer girls are getting paid for first IR. I can't even imagine what vets like nicole aniston/eva lovia/Jynx Maze are getting paid if newer lesser known chicks are getting that much. Jules Jordan said girls getting paid way more than 3 -4k, that's just more proof of what he was saying. Heard 1 black chick on podcast say she got $1300 for a 6 man gangbang. These first IR figures are just insane to me.
"color blindness" is white or class privilege disguised as a benevolent pad on the back for people or color. Race is a significant experience for people who are not part of the dominant group/power elite and saying that racism or discrimination is not an issue devalues their daily lived reality. As far as physical attraction goes, I don't see as much heated discussion about people being or not being attracted to short people, bigger people, people with long or short hair, people with small feet or hairy chests or shaved pubes or specifically shaped body parts. That is because race is still something that contributes to a person's identity to a greater extent than other features, and besides gender, age and class is probably the demographic that proves most intense to manage in a person's life (if you are not white). Like I said before, mostly female performers are being harassed for their decision to perform with male actors from different racial backgrounds. We don't have arguments why such and such white male does not work with dark skinned actresses. It's not just a discussion about racism but also sexism plays a role. Everyone has the right to decide who they want to have sex with/perform with. If you perform with actors of all skin tones, you get death threats and extremely negative comments and if you don't you get them calling you a racist. Whatever a (white) female performer decides, it almost does not matter in terms of negative response from fans so really it's a no win situation. and this is not solely a porn issues. I know from my own experience and from many couples I know where both partners are from different ethnic backgrounds, some with multiracial children, that they struggle with reactions of family members and comments from strangers.
Some of us don't need rent money because we have USED the income from having been shot 10000 times to buy our own homes. We have USED our time in the business to our advantage and have profited from the hard work we performed for so long. I understand that you are new to the business and right now it feels like the world is your castle. I hope you are aware that one day you will turn 30 or 35 and a new young girl will come along and say the exact same thing about you. I wish to you that you can react with a big smile on your face because you have USED your money to: - buy health insurance with a low deductible while you are still young and free of preexisting conditions - get a licensed CPA to do your taxes and pay all of your outstanding taxes on time - have started a retirement savings plan of some sort (roth IRA if you qualify or private investment account) - have thought about your life after porn strategy (open a business, get an education etc.) - have saved enough money for when work gets slow or you don't feel like shooting anymore - have created your own content that you personally own and can benefit from even when you don't shoot anymore - have managed to build up some alternative streams of income for when you don't get bookings (dancing, web cam, selling merchandise) - keep your monthly expenses so low that you always have the freedom to do something else if you want to I also wish to you on top of that, that you manage to: - stay out of trouble - stay drug free and healthy - make real friends that will be there for you even if you can't invite them to a Cheesecake Factory dinner or suck their dick - invest time to maintain a strong relationship to family - don't lose respect for hard working people with regular jobs who are struggling to make ends meet - don't lose track of how much $100 is worth and how long that has to last a normal person - become good at saving money even if spending it on fun things is very tempting - avoid wasting your income on unnecessary items like designer apparel and luxury cars - realize that nobody escapes aging and we will all eventually get older - build up a decent credit score - save money for a downpayment on a house - stay out of debt - have a bank account - have a clean driving record From your perspective an older ex performer who is almost 40 and spent 20 years in the business and now is not shooting anymore must look like a scary failure. But let me tell you that people do retire from the business on their own terms. They decide to move on, they develop other skills, they get married, they move away, they start families, their lives lead them in a different direction and they are not shooting anymore because they don't want to, need to or because they have found something they are even more excited about. In this day and age, people rarely stay in the same field of work for their entire life anymore and the same is true for the porn industry. Just because someone isn't shooting new scenes, does not mean they failed at life. Maybe they have something or someone really worthwhile in their lives that shifted their trajectory. I hope what you take out of this discussion is an awareness of your own limitations. The truth is that you too will get older, be called "used up" one day, will face the situation where you don't get as much work as you want, meet someone you love and get conflicted about performing certain scenes, have to seriously sit down and think about your exit strategy. The answers don't come easy and it is always difficult to transition back into civilian life. My advice is to save all your money, live modestly and pay all your taxes on time. That way you will be well prepared for the future and you will retired from porn with the peace of mind that it was a beneficial part in your life. At last I would like to invite you for coffee. I want to tell you about my life. I will be 38 soon, I started adult work when I was 20. I have also just completed my masters degree without student debt, I have been a home owner since 2009 and I will be a mom later this year. If you want to genuinely talk to an older performer, please accept my invitation. My intention is to show you how I live and tell you my honest story.
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - May 31 2017 : 3:59PM
KatjaKassin wrote:Exactly! There are short black people, bigger black people, black people with long and short etc So it's essentially an apples to oranges comparison, and thus, not a very legitimate one.Where? Last I checked, NO white male performer has refused to work with black/African decended pornstars. NO white female pornstar have every refused to work with white men, the same goes all other females race/ethnic groups. The ONLY ones getting rejected are black male performers (EVEN by black female performers).
You should read the book "Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome" by Dr Joy De Gruy or "Incidents in the life of a slave girl". Maybe that will shed some light on that. There were no rules limiting white slave owners to use their black female slaves for sexual purposes or for having children with the women to create new slaves (the status of a person was determined through their mother's status so all children by a slave women were considered slaves no matter the color of their skin). According to the book "Incidents in the life of a slave girl" lighter skinned slaves (descendants of white slave owners and black female slaves) often had more "favorable" conditions because they were used as domestic workers rather than performing grueling hard farm work. Even though there were and are certainly social norms affecting white couples' choice of partner, there were no legal racial restrictions concerning unions of all white couples while marriage between whites and non whites was forbidden by law until the landmark Supreme Court decision Loving vs Virginia in 1967 (white slaves owners having sex with their slaves was not sanctioned). The Loving couple was a white husband and a black wife and it has put an end to anti-miscegenation laws. However, historically the combination of a black man with a white woman was a lot more taboo. White males always had unsanctioned access to black female bodies whereas black men have been lynched just for looking a white woman in the eye. Landmark decisions have to focus on cases that have a realistic chance of changing policies and it is not surprising that the couple with a white male was chosen. I can hardly imagine that at the time a similar case of a black man marrying a white woman would have lead to the same legal outcome. Relationships between other racial groups, even though complex especially between different minorities, could never carry such a context like historic slavery has contributed to the black-white relationship in America. Joy the Gruy explains in her book the effects of slavery on interpersonal relationships today and she also talks about black-black relationships and parent child relations in black families. When I was in my seminars where we discussed the book, I also brought up modern pornography and depiction of biracial encounters.
Katja Kassin, please let me compliment you for your education and wisdom and your will to let others participate on it. You're really making the best of your life and career. My best wishes and greetings to you. That's all, I don't want to hijack this thread.
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Luke Lake Deactivated User
878 Posts 8/10
Posted - May 31 2017 : 6:11PM
Fun Fact (This is not to Dr. Katja Kassin but to the dude above her), There are white female performers who don't want to work with white male performers for various reasons. A good example is most women with James Deen I know 2 adult superstar Super MILFs who don't like working with some male performers for business reasons/personal reasons. Both are members on here and I won't go further.
What she (SS) was saying was that there is no performer out there today that refuses to work with all white men, in contrast to the fact that there are female performers that refuse to work with all black men (I think in the high times of 00s there were performers that primarily shot IR scenes, but I'm not sure if they never shot non-IR or just did it very, very rarely). Many performers have no lists out there, and you don't have to have done things as bad as James allegedly did to get on them.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 31 2017 : 7:48PM
A good example would be a pornstar who not only refuses to perform with Deen, but won't shoot with any Jewish man. Also, I don't know where you're getting the idea that "most women" won't shoot with Deen. That's the first I've heard of that.
porn works a lot like society during slavery(or even today). no woman regardless of color would dare discriminate against white men as a whole(especially in the context of porn) but white men will pick and choose who they like to fuck. no questions asked. it really is that simple. white women might get away with it in porn, even then not very many would do it. but black women and maybe even other minority groups have no choice if they want work.
Sure, peformers have no lists for individuals that they do not want to work with; however, as a group, you will NOT find men and women of any race put on no-lists to the extent black male performers are, period. This isn't directed towards you, WATB. I know you know this, just piggybacking off of your post.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - Jun 1 2017 : 4:02AM
#Facts Nothing more inspiring that an educated pornstar, loool. I wish more middle American folks were as informed as you, but I think you being a foreigner (German) may have something to do with you're outwardly nature. As the great Paul Mooney said "they have the complexion for the protection".
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - Jun 1 2017 : 4:23AM
We have to also remember that, each of these pornstars are individuals, that make decisions independent of others.Christy Mack made racially offensive remarks on twitter, and refused to work with black pornstars, but she in know way represents the likes of Rachel Starr, Alexis Texas or Camillla Bang who also refused to shoot with black talent. There's not necessarily a conspiracy but a society from which they come that no doubt influenced their discriminatory decision. When Justin Long (retired black male talent) said he was no longer going to shoot IR scenes as a protest of what he deemed a "racist industry", it wasn't long before he got backlash, and even had white female talent, responding in shock and feeling hurt that a black male performer would even dare refuse to work with her. Now isn't that ironic?, This happens to black male talent on a daily basis, yet the moment a black male decides, "Hey, fuck this, I'm tired of being an afterthought let me flip the script of this bullshit", he get's the same response that we see on twitter towards dodgers.
Backlash? You mean he hasn't been offered IR work any longer? Because he was the one who refused it in the first place and said he would only perform with black females so who backlashed him? the BLACK producers of Black on Black movies? The white directors and producers who didn't offer him scenes he wouldn't have accepted anyway?
maybe not in porn because with the current climate most performers black, white or otherwise, will take whatever work they can get. but no doubt they have more choices than black women in porn. even more choices than black men.
^ Do you have any actual facts about that? This just seem made up especially because he refused to perform IR out of a "political" choice with nothing personal in it , whoever possess at least two neurons would have been able to do the math easily. He was the one outraged because he said there were some white performers who had no problem fucking him off set but refused him on set because they didn't do IR, he didn't mentioned any name though. So given the premises I don't see any reason why those "refused" had to be offended. also backlash if I understand the word correctly , means he did receive some kind of harm other than having people offended , did those offended harm him in any way? Did they prevent him from working? starved him in any way ? Or by backlash you mean they didn't reply to his tweets? Actually that there was some kind of reaction , if any, meant at least his action had a response , an effect, if everything stayed the same with just him not working with whites and nobody giving a flying fuck to that, would have been a lot worse ^^ Maybe the tops , but I really doubt that those minor actors whose name is basically unknown have any choice , unless they actually prefer grannies in real life or very obese women or those really skeletikal ones for example, and I don't want go so down to mention those doing extreme BDSM submission
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jun 2 2017 : 7:35AM
^In general, white men in porn have more women who will perform with them than black men do, and even if you account for gender I doubt that the average white male performer has as hard a time getting booked as the average black female performer.
^ I don't know , I mean it's difficult to define average when talking about black females , there are at least two completely different body types whose differences are substancial and yet they're both in the "average" I mean there is the large assed ones sometimes in the extreme with a body type that I wouldn't describe as slim even after an entire bottle of booze drunk in a row and there are those hotter than their equally slim shaped white counterpart , I mean Ana Foxxx if hotter than most whites , sometimes a lot hotter than some acclaimed superstars. But black women have to struggle with many IR fans especially black who shun them very loudy , "she's not black enough" "BF-WM is not Interracial" "she should do more black on black" "she should do anal" that would basically shrink their market to the white who like them or those of any race who don't give a fuck to this. Still they have a lesser market than the average white , besides IR or BonB are a niche porn which means for anybody involved the number of scenes available are less than those available to the average white male performer Is it a matter of race? maybe in some cases but you have to consider that there are maybe 10 IR scenes per week available say 20 to be large and just take a look to the weekly updates at Brazzers alone , already more than that , add those of Mile high , those of Bangbros and do the maths 20 compared to how many? 100 200 or even possibly 300 if you add all sites out there? So there are all Black performers out there , male and female alike struggling to be in some of those 20 scene and compare them to those whites who may even get work just because there's nobody else available. It's the market , you need a demand for black actresses to work , things are changing there's more of them but it's still not enough. I've been promoting black girls here on ADT since forever , I was one of the most active in promoting "we fuck black girls" even though I didn't particularly liked their set up , quite the opposite, still they had some magnificent girls in there ,the response was generally positive and yet there were those threatening to quit DF if they continued to hire black girls . You saw the reply at Blacked when they used a couple of black girls ,many liked them but those negative were very outspoken and very active dozen of replies from the very same guy
Here's Lisa Ann going extra on this issue Says of the industry "they're all secretly racist" This hyperbole doesn't seem to serve anyone. Pretty much no porn anymore is as provocative or overtly racially charged as Jake Steed's fantastic work from the mid 90s to mid 2000s, or HushHush's content, largely driven by direction from the black male talent. I think if anything white producers are too afraid of courting controversy anymore, so that's why IR and ethnic porn is so extra tame these days. Interestingly, much if not most of the black male talent behind the cameras is gone now too: no more Alex Devoe, Justin Slayer, Jake Steed, etc. If we could reach to point to any mainstream company that is still quasi-edgy, it would be Dogfart, but they have a great reputation with black talent. Why the fuck else would performers keep working with them? If they were out of line or performers felt they were offended, then all they have to do is refuse to work with Dogfart. And that is something I would have proposed years ago, because of lackluster production values, but DFN has really stepped their game up once Blacked arrived. I just don't get the lashing out at the industry wholesale given how tame it is compared to 15 years ago, when prominent black talent had more control. If anything, I long for more black talent to take control again and make really outrageous racially provocative porn. Make raceplay great again!
I am not a foreigner. I'm an American citizen and that's the only citizenship I currently have. I am as American as anyone in this country. Your comment is offensive and a micro aggression that immigrants often face from native born Americans. I think my determination to pursue an education in social sciences has bestowed me with insight into these topics. I had no clue when I first came to the US. I worked hard to know things, it's not that I'm inherently different than anyone else. It's possible for anyone to know stuff if they wanted to. I also don't see myself as an educated porn star. I see myself as a person who is passionate about education and happened to have had a modeling career at some point.
I am not a foreigner. I'm an American citizen and that's the only citizenship I currently have. I am as American as anyone in this country. Your comment is offensive and a micro aggression that immigrants often face from native born Americans. I think my determination to pursue an education in social sciences has bestowed me with insight into these topics. I had no clue when I first came to the US. I worked hard to know things, it's not that I'm inherently different than anyone else. It's possible for anyone to know stuff if they wanted to. I also don't see myself as an educated porn star. I see myself as a person who is passionate about education and happened to have had a modeling career at some point.
I am not a foreigner. I'm an American citizen and that's the only citizenship I currently have. I am as American as anyone in this country. Your comment is offensive and a micro aggression that immigrants often face from native born Americans. I think my determination to pursue an education in social sciences has bestowed me with insight into these topics. I had no clue when I first came to the US. I worked hard to know things, it's not that I'm inherently different than anyone else. It's possible for anyone to know stuff if they wanted to. I also don't see myself as an educated porn star. I see myself as a person who is passionate about education and happened to have had a modeling career at some point.
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JackSparrow Deactivated User
7235 Posts 7/11
Posted - Jun 4 2017 : 1:49PM
^ easy lady ,no reason for three times unless its the charm. has it a reason why you have no german pass anymore ? ,i thought it was possible to hold on to the german one ,if you receive an american one.
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Snowbunny Sorcerer Deactivated User
She's hot but not my type of stroke game, I don't play sword fights with that which mirrors me. 146 Posts 5/17
Posted - Jun 5 2017 : 3:51AM
Sorry for offending you, I didn't mean it in that way. Perhaps I should word it better. But since, you're weren't originally born and raised in the states, you were raised in a country and culture somewhat different to that of the U.S. I'd assume your outlook on things like race/ethnicity would be a tad bit different than say, a person raised (Not necessarily birthed) in the American culture since childhood, thereby internalising the many different aspects of such a raced-based white supremacist culture. Edited by - Snowbunny Sorcerer on 6/5/2017 3:52:54 AM
I agree with Mr Marcus. it's too simplistic to say where I was born determined my attitudes. it is much deeper than that. My skin is still white and I do not have to face certain issues compared to people of color. I am also from a Western European country where I could easily come here on a visa compared to many other who do not have that privilege or whose ancestors were brought here against their will. My attitudes about the US are formed by my experiences living here and me making the effort to explore them. I think you do not give me enough credit or do not appreciate the complexity of such topics as racism, discrimination or privilege enough when you refer to my place or birth or the way I came to be American to explain all of it. Many European countries see a surge in populistic sentiments at the moment and it is not really true that Europeans are somehow less racist or more open.
