So let's just go along with this and follow it to it's logical conclusion. This means more black female performers work less because why pay certain black female performers as much as their white counterparts when they often don't bring in as much revenue/sales. Why pay every black female performer the same as the white performers when you're not getting a much back in return? Why bother? The profit margins just took a hit paying more for a smaller return. It would make more sense to just stick with the better selling white girls. If the directors had to pay their black male talent the same as they would pay their white talent then what would be the incentive work for that director if it came down to working elsewhere. Suppose a big black stud got a call from JULES JORDAN and a BLACK MARKET to work on the same day and had to pick one over the other. He could go work harder and longer hours with JJ or he could go hang with his friends a BM and do less work and get done a lot sooner. The pay is the same, so why work harder for the same money? White female pornstar gets a call to do an anal scene with Mandingo. She can handle Mandingo but it's tough and leaves her sore for a day or so afterwards. She decides it's not worth the extra effort because she got 5 other scenes lined up with smaller guys she can handle much more easily. If the pay's the same why go that extra mile? White female pornstar gets requested to do IR. She hasn't really considered it before. She happy and content shooting with her small of white guys she's comfortable with and decides why bother to step outside her comfort zone when there's no real reason to do so since the pays the same. She decides she'll hold off on IR for right now...maybe someday down the road she'll do it. Popular white female pornstar finally does her first IR and the company she did it for makes it a huge event and big deal. It's a top seller and people won't stop talking about how much money it made...all because of her. Popular white pornstar is bothered by it and other pornstars take notice. Many decide that they will only do IR for their personal site so they can reap the benefits of their work/popularity. They decide why make all that money for some studio when they are the main attraction and could keep the bulk of the profits for themselves. Studios that showcased first time IR and IR exclusives suddenly find themselves with less talent because they can't lure as many girls to shoot with them with higher rates. Sales take a hit and profits are down so the porn they shoot because of it is inferior because of a lack of funds to do better high end production. The girls who don't charge more for IR don't even shoot there much because it's seen as a c-level studio. Yes...This is something you should all get behind.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 10:30PM
Another comparison that I think doesn't work. I mean, come on, there's a big difference between "working" with someone in each job.
^ At some point, people are going to have to accept that sex work is still work, and that means that there are some things about it that might just have to have to chalk up to being a professional. Ignoring the whole "what if she's not attracted to X argument", refusing to work with any singular person isn't really a big deal. Refusing to work with a large group of people for what is a purely superficial reason is. The fact that it's sex doesn't negate the moral/ethical questions about what's going on. ^^ Nearly all of the things you just mentioned already happen now.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Sep 21 2016 : 5:16AM
At some point people are going to have to accept that sex workers are just people having sex for money, and as such aren't going to be subject to the same rules as people sitting behind a desk every day. And as an independent contractor I never have work guaranteed. I accept whatever work comes my way based on whatever criteria I choose. At no point am I ever obligated to take a job, nor am I obligated to give reasons why I don't take a job. The laws are written to allow personal freedom, but also protect liberties from institutional discrimination. In other words, the law can prevent businesses from discriminating, but not individuals. People in the US are free to be racist assholes all they want. It's the shitty side of the freedom coin, but it is a side nonetheless. As an individual, I can decline any work I want for any reason I want. That includes being a racist asshole. If you think otherwise, you have a gross misunderstanding of the US Constitution as well as Federal and State employment laws.
I'd like to know how ethical would be to push workers to accept lower wages while the employer earns more or even a lot more and therefore how ethical it would be to push a producer to pay more an employee whose work would give less earnings. Or if you prefer if a white performer working with a white guy earns $ 500 and the producer gets a scene worth $ 5,000 (fictional figures just for the sake of argument) and the very same performer working with a black guy gives the producer a $ 10,000 worth scene is it still fair that the whole higher revenue goes solely to the producer? Wouldn't it be fairer if the performer gets a proportional share of it? Same thing with less earnings why a producer should hire a black woman and pay equally to get a less worthy scene? I do believe that many black stars are even better than most whites either as performers and overall beauties and they should earn more, than them but then again it's a matter of bargaining value , if you are in demand you'll earn accordingly I don't have the figures but I believe that while active Skin Diamond was getting more than the average white performer and so was doing Heather Hunter back then Skin was getting main covers among white performers , it was her the one who helped selling more copies , there's a number of black performers who have the same appeal to the market, say Ana Foxxx , possibly Kira Noir if the market requires them then they'll earn accordingly. The way I see it there's a bunch of director/producer trying to talk the performers to lower their wages for IR so that they get all the greater share from that I just bought Mason's Black Anal Asses I didn't even notice it was IR with black girls I just noticed Ana Foxx on the front cover and Kira Noir in the list and that was enough and then Skyler Nicole and Layton Benton which were a plus ,all of them were worth my purchase alone already If the earning from a IR scene and a non IR scene were the same then by all means I'd call a higher rate for this plain racism but we all know it isn't so Edited by - LCF on 9/21/2016 9:20:27 AM
So what happens when these porn producers pay these outrageous "first" fees and then the scene flops and doesn't make any money? Likewise do white girls get paid more when a All white scene makes more money? Or does this never happen?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Sep 21 2016 : 12:32PM
^There is a consistent expectation that firsts in general, not just IR firsts, will be more profitable than an average scene. That is a reasonable expectation and it provides a reasonable basis for paying a pornstar more than her average rate. Obviously there have not been enough "first" flops to undermine expectations among producers. It would seem that flops are the exception rather than the norm.
It's called risk , if you choose poorly it's a problem of that scene alone , it's not a general problem, for every scene ending with a loss there are a hundred with high margin profits
Yeah pretty much this. Key point of which, if I may, is that artificially raising the value of certain services/goods only means there will be less of it produced/delivered, doesn't it? People keep thinking that producers are the ones who dictate the value of things to the consumers. They have this completely backward. Consumers are the ones who dictate demand, thus we appraise value based on consumers. So, suppose an equal rate could be imposed (which I honestly don't see how, given every individual performer seems to cut their own deal) this means either lowering the average for white females, or raising it for black females. Now, we know there's no way in hell anyone will stand for having their own value slashed by 10 percent, let alone 15 or more. So that leaves us with needing to artificially raise the rate for black females. If a certain amount of work was guaranteed for these black females, then surely this would be an indisputable win for them. However, there is no such guarantee, and raising their rates this way will only mean less work available to them. The market has a way of correcting itself. We all understand the moral merit of this motion for equal rates. But what is really moral about show biz, where, even removed of any racial variance, if you look across the board in all groups, it is the more attractive people who typically make more money than the less. This applies to all within each race. Pretty black actresses / performing artists will typically earn more than ugly ones. This isn't moral. But who has the authority to decide what the value of something in entertainment is? Or look at a more closely related example within the porn industry, but instead of crusading for damsels in distress, ask yourself just how "fair" is it that average hung guys are not as valuable as well hung guys? Where does "fair" come into this? I would be tickled to read a statement by a committee in porn calling for equal pay for small dick dudes. lol Please pay a pale, pasty, freckled ginger man with a pinky for a penis the same rate as Mandingo! It's not happening. Or for a real laugh, what about the REAL gender pay gap here? Women typically make 50% more, if not 2 times or 3 times as much as men in porn. If you were to impose equal pay across the sexes, it would turn the business upside down, crippling production to the point of ruining the entire industry. Nobody in their right mind is going to entertain that idea. Maybe such a thing is possible, but I'd really like to hear how. And think of the scabs it would produce. Think of all the performers who would be willing to not impose the artificially inflated rate, instead taking the old lower pay rate just so they can keep getting work. Meanwhile, the ones who demand the inflated rate will see a plummet in bookings.
I'm sure this has happened already to some extent. Probably not a "flop" per se but perhaps isn't as profitable as the studio/director had hoped. It's part of the risk of doing business. At when the point comes (if it comes) when "flops" happen too often then the big pay day will die out or go away. If the scenes aren't as big a hit as they hoped and the big profits aren't there for them then they will adjust that big pay day accordingly. Also, keep in mind that these big pay days aren't the same across the board. The risk factor is mostly low for the smarter director/studios because they aren't just wildly throwing money at every girl. Their pay day is based on the girl's popularity/demand.Sometimes, sure. If the girl and/or agent is smart and knows the girl is doing something that will bring fans and move product beyond the norm. If the girl knows their first anal or first threesome or first time working with a director the fans have wanted to see. Again, too many people tend to want to judge the way things work in porn is like things work in a typical 9to 5 job. There's a base rate for porn girls but their rates can go up or down based on different factors. just like Jules Jordan mentioned he has to pay certain guys more a couple of page ago the same is true for girls. All girls don't make the same rate and that rate varies depending on what that girls does or who the work for.
cant really fault the guy for asking for more pay, why should everyone else reap off his skin color except him? Not only that, but if a director doesnt want to risk a flop with a lesser talent, than said male should be compensated for the "safety" of booking him
^ That is one of the most interesting aspects of this. Obviously there is extra value in black dudes. But the fact is, nobody is paying any guys extra for their "first" whatever. Also, there are practically zero guys in the industry who could possibly claim a scene is going to be their first time with a white chick. So there's really no unique selling point here for them to put on a box. It can be argued, however, that the average black male may actually have a marginally higher scene rate than the average white male. Jules Jordan and Mimefreak both hinted at this earlier in this thread. Especially guys like Lex Steele and Mandingo - they definitely get more than the average male in porn - probably even more than all the white males in porn, save for maybe 2 guys, like Manuel or James Deen (although Deen probably took a hit due to the Stoya scandal). But even then, I'm not sure how substantial the support is for Manuel or Deen to be able to negotiate for the highest rates. They are certainly popular, but popular for what? It can't be for their dick sizes. And as far as male attributes go, dick size remains king in porn. Nobody is paying extra to see average dicks in porn. 9 times out of 10, the big dick wins. At the end of the day, laissez-faire seems to wrap up all loose ends about as well as can be. I can't imagine any porn producers out there are interested in paying more for something than it is worth. Most of them have to squeeze every penny. Still, I can't help but wonder if there isn't some way for the black male talent involved in all these lucrative IR movies to make even more. But I think the only way that would be possible is if they unionized and monopolized all the black male talent, which would seem to be effectively impossible. They can try their best, but then there would always be some amateur black guy to supply the dick for the regular pay. Unions call them scabs. So unless someone can think of a better way for black male talent to make even more than they already are, this may just be as good as it gets.
^ The best/primary way for black male performers to make even more money is to go from being just performers to being the producers of the content. Sure, you can't make more money off being the male talent in a woman's first IR scene. But if you know that the woman wants it to be with you, you can make the money by having it be from your own production company instead of the two of you shooting for one of the other major companies. IMO, this is generally harder nowadays because it's more difficult to get the distribution deals in place where a performer's production company can get out the press and prestige of shooting your first IR for the likes of Jules or Evil Angel or even ArchAngel (which is where it is because they started off with being backed by Girlfriend Films, a major distributor), but if you can get there you stand to make a lot more than you can just from being a performer. And that's what you've seen most of the top black male performers do over the past 20 years or so, some to great success (Lex), and some less so (Mandingo). Edit: And I think we're nearing the end of the era of "the big dick ruling all", if we aren't already there. For the past half decade, at least, the most popular male performers in the industry haven't been close to the largest ones (I'd argue the top 3 over that time period in the US are James, Mick, and Manuel). People are valuing other things in their porn outside of which scene has the biggest dicks in it, and that is being born out in social media trends (which male performers are most popular in terms of followers) and in sales charts (which male performers are featured in the top selling movies). Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 9/25/2016 1:37:32 AM
I don't think a male pornstar should make more solely because he's black. Maybe some do but I don't think there's a shortage of black performers so just being black shouldn't be enough to justify higher pay. If he's a black performer that's above average or has big following then that's different. I think every pornstar male or female should make their own deals based on their skills, popularity, and what they bring to the table and how much they are able to make for the studio. There are black male pornstars that are okay and get the job done but aren't any sort of draw to the audience. Other than being black there's nothing about them that makes a fan go out of their way to see them. If they can get above average pay, good for them but if they don't have anything to offer other than skin color I personally don't think they may deserve anything other than normal pay rates. However, guys like Lex, Mandingo, Shane, etc...are performers who some/many fans want to see because of their size or the quality of their performance or their chemistry with their partners or whatever. For whatever reason those performers are a draw and can increase sales by being in a scene. The guys don't always get the props they deserve but when a girl talks about doing her first IR most fans are quick to name which black performer they want to see her with and their list is usually fairly short. And it isn't always about skin color or size. As you mentioned James Dean and Manuel are big male draws in porn. They have appeal and are well liked enough that even when teamed up with less popular women their star power is enough to make up the difference and still sell product. They deserve to make premium because have a big fanbase. For certain studios a male pornstar may be worth a higher rate because he's a good actor and that's what the movie and director needs. If a porn guy is a fav of many of the girls working in the biz and when they get booked lots of girls request a certain guy then I think that guy should make a higher rate. If the girls want to work with him that means he's in demand by the girls and they'll give a better performance when paired with him. So I think pay rates shouldn't be standard across the board for all performers. They should start out with a base pay in the beginning and stay the same or increase based on popularity, sex acts, performance skills, demand, or business savy.
APAC is forming a subcommittee to build guidelines regarding racial inequality. They issued a statement on racial discrimination in September and held a meeting to discuss the issue a few days ago. APAC Explores Solutions to 'Discrimination' (Xbiz)
If this all comes to pass it would be a great thing morally but not a good thing for IR fans. This takes away many girl's incentive to do IR early in their career or perhaps even at all.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Dec 8 2016 : 9:48PM
So, um, is this only about black guys/white girls? I mean, I think women of color (black/Hispanic/Asian) in the industry could just as easily make a case for being "discriminated against."
I don't even know how certain this could be as a moral victory. First time IR has undeniable extra value. How is it moral to regulate against performers being able to share the profit of it? I would rather see a case made in which the black male talent get a piece of the action. So everyone wins. Here's a simple compromise. Since it's abundantly clear that 1st IR is worth the extra cost to producers, why don't the female performers who get extra pay split their bonus with the male talent in the scenes? If they truly feel moral compunction about it, just share the benefit. Producers win. Female wins. Male wins. Everyone wins. Why is this so hard to figure out? At the end of the day the reason I never stressed this practice is because it's the producers' investment. Who are we to tell them how to invest? If a female's 1st IR has extra value over vanilla scenes, who are we to tell her she has no right to benefit? People keep looking at this backwards looking for a bogey-man. But it makes about as much sense to appeal to consumers and tell them to stop buying IR, especially popular movies prominently selling 1st IR, as it does to tell performers they should not be incentivized by a commensurate bonus. This just continues to be a crime with no clear victim. Look, even if there was some way to regulate against the practice, producers would always find ways around it. This is NOT about anyone robbing anyone. This is not about anyone being paid less than the market dictates. This is about performers knowing the value of what they are being used to sell. I just do not see how you can tell a producer how to invest, like you know their business better than they do. It does make me wonder what would happen to Blacked. They must spend a fortune on casting relative to others with all the 1st IR's they land. On the other hand, maybe they're just extra savvy and have talent scouts that get a special commission for finding hot new females that haven't done IR and simply don't realize that they even could get more money for their 1st IR. Money saved is money earned, and probably could well justify said talent scouts getting paid a fee. Instead of paying a female performer the extra 3 or 4 or 5 grand for her 1st IR, they just pay a scout a few hundred bucks. Good job, scout. That's just my cynical suspicion. Who knows how it all goes down behind the scenes?
Think about how cool it would be for a female, for example Riley Reid who stated she got paid an extra 4,000 for her first IR, to simply split that bonus pay with her scene partner. Once the producer's check clears, I'm sure they don't care how the female talent spends it. If they feel guilty like it's blood money, then why not just give it ALL to that scene partner? In that case, it goes from being a "moral crime" to being a noble cause to be commended, no? If I have seemed overly cynical or unsympathetic on this issue, just look at it in terms of why the practice exists in the first place. I think most people don't even ask this, they just assume it's cuz of hateful racists. This could almost not be any further from the truth. The practice exists because we the fans so much enjoy interracial, and many IR fans, not the least of whom are black males, especially enjoy seeing hot females doing their first IR. Blacked has TONS of black fans, white fans, interracial couple fans. And Blacked is the most prominent purveyor of IR porn that applies this practice. I say let the practice remain, and let those performers who feel they don't deserve the bonus pay share it. BTW Riley got that 4 grand bonus for a scene with Mandingo. I think it's safe to assume Mandingo is one of the top paid males in the biz as it is. In fact it seems many if not most of the males tapped to appear in a female's 1st IR are among the more popular male talent, and likely make more than the average male performer. Directors statements support this as well. Point being these guys already make more than the average male. Maybe this could be because their performances earn it. Maybe it's cuz they stay in great shape. Maybe it's because they are blessed with massive members. Maybe it's because they are good looking. Or maybe it's just because they are black and IR is poppin. IR is very popular + there are not that many black male talent in the game. With such high demand and incentive, it's hard to see dudes in porn who get the bang some of the hottest females around as victims. These dudes aint in danger of going hungry. They are only in danger of getting fat and sloppy. Their biggest concern should be getting out of shape. That's going to hurt them more than anything. What am I missing?
I've never been against a girl or guy getting more money for something they bring to the table that's in demand and can get paid for it. I've pointed out many times that porn isn't like working at the post office where everyone needs to be treated equally and a list of rules applies to everyone. If the demand is for a white girl to take on a black guy or if the demand is for the biggest black penis or the girl with a huge following or the director that gets the most people to watch or whatever....If that person has the ability to move more product for whatever reason and can get more money for it...more power to them. That's the way it should be.
Minnie Scarlet's "hot take" on the "Racist" industry https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/how-to-make-ethical-porn-in-an-industry-built-on-racism-and-fetishization?utm_source=vicetwitterca UGH... There's logical failure in every paragraph. She sounds brand new...
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 21 2016 : 12:59PM
^The relevant quote:The last few lines are especially odd to me, since IR scenes typically fetishize both ethnicities in relation to each other. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/21/2016 1:05:59 PM
Yeah that was one of the most immediate rebuttals that came to mind, e.g. "Little White Slave Girls" fame. Or how about how common "white bitch" is used? We just had a movie earlier this year called "Monster Dick, Little White Bitch" by Donnie Darkko. What's funny about that is the "white bitch" fetish is so strong, they even pushed it with Kristina Rose on the cover. (An excellent porno btw, if Donnie or any of the performers ever happens by this topic. IMO that was one of the best pornos all year for me.) =) I totally understand why some performers/entertainers don't want to be typecast, let alone stereotyped into a pigeonhole. But largely, if the general fetishes she refers to do fuel the industry, I'm not sure how you can fault the whole industry for providing jobs, especially when the whole goal is to cater to consumers. Her argument is that the industry is "built on racism and fetishization." If that is the case, then by her logic, removing such racism and fetishization means there's no industry. There goes everyone's jobs... Right? The problem with these "think pieces" is they try to have their cake and eat it too. And that is probably the best analogy for this because, like cake, porn is not an essential commodity. This is perhaps one of the last areas where people ought to be getting self-righteous. Slamming the industry as racist doesn't make sense. To that bloggers credit, she tries to offer some solution for it. It more or less amounts to "make your own porn." And I approve of this notion. If someone is so angered by all the mainstream porn out there for how it is handled, that's as good a reason as any to make their own.
They do, but I think we can agree that "white" is seen as the norm, and the "difference" is achieved through adding the non-white person. People don't generally talk enough about how whiteness is constructed and represented though, I agree. However, there is a lot more at stake when you stereotype non-white people and very little at stake when white people are stereotyped. She didn't say any of that, though. She is frustrated with racist, simple-minded society and media, which is justified. It's just not a very complex or well-written piece.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 21 2016 : 5:14PM
I'm still waiting for a pornstar critic of IR to write or speak comprehensively and at length about some of the issues that Minnie raised. It's true that these issues should be written/spoken about, but from what I've seen the pornstars who have come out as critics have done a poor job. I think the last piece by a pornstar-critic discussed on this thread was Riley Reid's blog post, in which she lamented her first IR pay day. It's fine that she regrets that, but why didn't she talk about how her first IR was undoubtedly expected to make more money than an average scene? Should Jules have screwed her over? Did Mandingo take average b/g pay? These are the kinds of things that I want to see addressed.
^ Indeed. It's like reading an article that says "society is racist." Well, yeah. Can we dig a little deeper and ask different questions? That's why I so appreciate the new work being done by black feminist scholars Mireille Miller-Young, Ariane Cruz, and Jennifer Nash. Miller-Young's book might be something you want to check out as it's an ethnographic study based on years of interviews with black performers, and it's very complex--doesn't let porn off the hook for racism, but also discusses the various forms of navigation and agency involved on the part of the performer.
What I'd like is a is frank and honest talk from the directors/studios focusing on sales/views of BM/WF vs WM/BF porn along with Asian, Latina and black on black themed porn. Also their thinking process of how they pick when to toss in a black female performer into an otherwise mostly white mix of scenes. The directors/studios are the ones making the actual decisions about who gets cast and how much they're worth to them. It might also be interesting to hear from some agents take on people of color in the industry also. At this point I have no real interest in hearing about this from performers. They all mostly seem to have a biased view to all this. This whole "the industry is racist because I don't get as much work as those white girls.." angle from black female performers usually seems be uninformed complaining. I feel for them but I just don't buy into the whole attitude of "I work less and get paid less because of industry racism".
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Dec 22 2016 : 12:52PM
I have no idea who this Minnie Scarlet is, however, she is right in regards to the double standard that exists between white women and women of color in the industry. White girls have the luxury of choosing if and when they want to perform with male talents of a different race, whereas your black/Hispanic/Asian girls in the biz essentially have no choice but to work with white guys from the get-go, or else they don't get any work at all. It's one reason why, when it comes to being "discriminated against," I think that women of color in this business have it worse than the black male talents, whom most people tend to focus on.
I'm a big fan of asian babes in porn. I've seen a fair amount. I can think of my top 20 scenes featuring Asian female talent and not 1 of them comes to mind where she is in a schoolgirl outfit. Yeah, I'm sure the stereotype exists in there. Somewhere deep in the vast landscape of porn with thousands of niches and kinks. I'd sooner call the Asian schoolgirl thing a cliche though. And frankly it doesn't appeal to me. There's PLENTY of porn where Asian females are just playing in regular sexy roles. Of course they usually market such content with an emphasis on "Asian" because - gasp! - Asians babes are fucking hot. This is taking things even further than 1st world problems. This is 1st-world-dispensable-luxury-entertainment-problems. You want to work outside of that niche Asian schoolgirl cliche? Good. That's what I want too. And that just so happens to the majority of how, from my experience as a humble observer, Asians are presented. Not as schoolgirls. And for that matter, I've seen substantially more white schoolgirl themed porn than any other kind. Speaking of white girls. Another statement from that Vice article which failed to register for me was when she wrote: "I know that no one would attribute a "tight pussy" to being white." WHAT? "Tight white pussy" is one of the most common phrases I've ever heard in all the porn I watch. It has a nice ring to it cuz tight rhymes with white. But it's obviously more than that too. It's a common phrase because black guys got big dicks, so naturally white pussy is gonna seem, if not actually be, tight when stretched by BBC. Can we stop being fake outraged by every little thing finally? lol I mean come on... This would be like complaining about the popularity of nurse roles for women in porn. Yeah, there's a lot of those, cuz - DUH - it's fucking popular. Women also happen to dominate the nursing field. Why would this not be an expected reflection of the our natural world? BTW I've read scientific research which concluded Asian women, Indian in particular, had narrower vaginas than the worldwide average. And this study does support the findings of condom producers which have to supply the sub-continent with thinner condoms. If anyone is interested, I can probably find the link. Apparently there was an issue of the standard condom sizes not fitting, thus not functioning properly over there. None of this means anyone should enjoy being pigeonholed or typecast. I'm all for breaking the mold. As I noted, most of the porn with Asian females I've seen did not feature that Asian schoolgirl fetish. Edited by - Melvyn on 12/22/2016 1:36:12 PM
Perfectly valid points. I highly doubt any of the well hung guys in porn who have benefited from being gifted with exceptional endowment are too keen on fighting for the equal opportunity of less endowed males in porn. It would be hilarious to see what happens if all males had to be paid the same. Would that mean a massive paycut to the big guys like Danny D, Mandingo, Lex, etc? Or would that mean a massive and much more sweeping pay raise for all the average hung males in typical run of the mill porn? If pay was forcibly equalized regardless of penis size, then suddenly those average hung dudes would be SHIT OUTTA LUCK cuz nobody would hire them anymore if they can get superhung studs for the same price. Producers would all realize they are just flushing money down the drain if they hired an average hung dude instead of a well hung one for the same price. The harsh reality is this: porn, like the fashion industry and showbiz more broadly, is heavily superficial. Attractive people typically make more than less attractive. It's not fair, but it's the way the world largely wants it. And there's virtually no way to regulate it, enforcing some sort of neutrality on the matter of attractiveness affecting pay rates. Big dicked guys are typically going to make more than small dick guys in porn. That's just the way it is. It's not to suggest there are zero other factors in determining a male performer's value. It's just an obvious advantage that yields "inequity." Curiously, nobody seems interested in marching for little dick rights. Also curiously, nobody seems interested in marching for the rights of people with bizarrely misshapen facial features to get equal opportunity on fashion mag covers. Once in a blue moon some popular women's mag will put a fat lady on the cover to pat themselves on the back, but it's likely all a calculated gesture for extra publicity precisely because of novelty. I don't like being overly cynical, but society is simply attracted to the attractive. If you don't happen to have the luck of winning the genetic lottery and being advantaged with good or what are generally accepted by the dominant culture to be good looks, then maybe show biz or porn isn't your safest bet? I will never fault anyone for trying, and it's even inspiring to see people struggle against the current to be successful. Just don't get all sour grapes and indict society in general cuz you're not lucky enough to be in that top 1% whose looks do the work for them. Did any of you guys see Neon Demon? It's pretty horrific satire of vanity in the high fashion industry.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Dec 22 2016 : 3:08PM
^I just find it very noteworthy that Riley and pornstars who have made similar comments never attempted to explain precisely why Jules Jordan shouldn't have paid her more than usual for a scene that he knew would make more money than usual. That aspect of first IR is just left unaddressed. Furthermore, I doubt that Mandingo took a regular b/g rate for that scene. Was everyone supposed to make a killing on Riley's first IR except Riley? If Riley's answer is "Yes", perhaps she could have elaborated on that. EDIT: I want to reiterate that it's good that people in the industry are at least talking about issues of race, but the problem I have is their tendency to avoid addressing the more complex aspects of IR. So for example, a pornstar whom I discussed a number of times here argued that IR was by and large racist, degrading, etc. That same pornstar regularly performed in very rough scenes in which she was called names, manhandled, etc. Now, does she not view those scenes as sexist? Does she view them as sexist yet acceptable? Those are relevant questions imo, but she didn't even raise them, much less address them. Edited by - misspornUSA on 12/22/2016 3:30:18 PM
^ I guess in these days, Mandingo's rates are pretty much consistent across the board but if a new girl tries to capitalize on his name(and parts) to get paid, then he feels he should charge more because X girl + X dude does not equate X girl + MANDINGO It's kinda like Hollywood or the Music industry, you make a film or song thats just regular but you pay for the top billing name to draw in eyes or ears to boost your own profile. Unless said parties are buddy buddy, that feature wants to be compensated to put their product, name, rep, etc on the line
As producers, we deal with girls agents most times, who are usually the ones that establish rates with the girls, we accept, counter offer, or decline.
Yes. I'd have to image the girl's "standard" rate is just a starting point to be negotiated from. Porn isn't cookie-cutter one size fits all. I'm sure girls/agents ask for more money for other things other than IR. They also might charge less when doing certain things or working for what's considered "B" or "C" studios if they chose to work for them. For so many people to choose to only seem concerned with rates when it comes to skin color seems so silly to me.
My point includes everyone. As I've said time and time again porn isn't 9 to 5 clock punching government job where pay rates are set and everyone must be treated equally by law. Sorry, but most black women performers aren't as in demand as the top white women performers in porn. Yeah, people can claim "I'm a fan of black girls..." and "they don't make enough stuff with black females..." that may be true for them but the reality is the overall demand isn't there. I know some people are gonna say "But that's because they don't get an equal chance...". But that's not it. Look at all the evidence around us. If the demand was there there'd be much more porn with black women charting on sites, DVD sales, views on sites, and more black woman product getting made. If the demand was there and not being met by the usual studios that means the people who actually do porn with black women would be huge because they'd be filling that void. But none of this is the case is it? Even on this site. There's a section that mostly talks about the girls in the biz and the new girls. How many of those threads are about black performers? Pages and pages of women and hardly any are black. Yeah, occasionally someone will start a thread about black female performers it won't get anywhere near the talk as a thread on white girls, big butts, big breasts, etc., gets. There are of course exceptions but for the most part since overall black women aren't as in demand and the bigger sellers like the white performers they can't be treated equally in an industry based on popularity and demand. I feel for those girls but their logic is incredibly faulty. "I'm not getting as much work or the kind of pay some of the white girls...but my pay rate needs to be the same as theirs..." ??? Where does this type of thinking work exactly? A product that isn't selling as well will do better with a price raise? On the other hand, black girls who have a big following and have proven they can increase sales they should get as much they can get for their services. If we find out Skin Diamond is typically the highest paid black female pornstar that's great because she seems to be one of the most popular and in demand. If a new or existing black female and create a buzz in the industry that makes her a hot commodity she should cash in on it. The same applies to Asian and Latinas. They're in the same boat to a lesser degree. There are top tier Asian and Latina girls who get a higher percentage of the "A" list work while a large percentage can only get "B" or "C" level work. Those girls lower level girls probably have the same complaints as their black counterparts but the reality is they're probably being paid accordingly. And lets take it a step further...there are more than likely plenty of lower list white girls unhappy with their pay when they compare it to the top tier girls. The people who produce porn have to make money to keep doing what they do. To do that they will invest their time and money into what's been proven to work for them. As much as some fans think black women are the best thing in porn that might not be the best seller for that porn producer. That producer knows exactly what works for them because they have the hard data to back it up. Fans and sometimes performers don't care about the people producing the porn and only care about what they want. Sometimes what they want isn't best for the people putting up the money and taking the risks to making the porn. The mentality that the entire porn biz is racist based on certain people not getting as much work or being paid as much as some others just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They are only racist against black females but are more than okay with black males? They don't mind working with those 6 black females but are racist and against the rest of the black female performers? I have to imagine there's racism in the porn industry when it comes to certain individuals. That makes total sense. But I just don't believe the entire porn industry has made some sort of pact to treat black, Asian and Latinos badly at the expense of losing money. That's why I said before I have little interest at this point of hearing about this from the performers POV but would love if the porn producers talked about it involving their thought process when it comes to casting and which type of scenes/movies they decide to make and talk about which ones are more profitable and which aren't.
Thank you. I leveled this question at those complaining about race play. Do they feel similarly about what could effectively be called "gender play"? The only person that responded got edited and deactivated, and no one else replied. Telling.
^ No one has ever supplied an answer for why it's ok to degrade either sex in porn, but edgy raceplay and even just general interracial themes are deemed "offensive."
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Feb 16 2017 : 1:41AM
^For the first question, try the "All Things IR" thread on page 2 of this forum. For the second question, Cindy has a dedicated thread on page 10 of the Star Crossed forum.
^ i know i cant be the only viewer that agrees with those comments. To me there is no more degrading feeling than a girl that has done everything under the sun, undergoes physical transformation(sometimes not for the better), and looking for the bounce back and they finally come crawling to "x" black guy to get paid It's no fun waiting YEARS for a good chunk of popular girls to even entertain the thought of shooting with a black guy. That is why I am loyal to the heavyweights that started from day one or close enough to it, and hope they get booked over and over again until they retire because you never know. You might take for granted a Jada Stevens or Keisha Grey, you might take for granted the next Alexis Ford or Sophie Dee Agents and their stupid business plan, I hate it. If a girl wants to do anal off the bat or shoot interracial, let her do what she enjoys
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 8:58PM
