Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day (page 12)

Author	Post
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 4:11AM Interracial4Life wrote: If you get rid of IR then how would black men in porn get more work, IR is the only work they can get because some white companies don't shoot IR movies or sometime they do shoot IR scenes but in non IR movies. So IR is here to stay and if you get rid of then guys like Lexington Steele, Sean Michaels, and Prince or companies like Blacked.com would be out of the industry and end up working at a Target. It will also hurt them from making a brand and wining a awards. Eliminate IR means Eliminate black men from porn. BTW not all black men who are IR fans don't watch racist type of IR because that is made for white men, there a lack of porn for black men made by black men but Blacked.com is made for black men Edited by - Interracial4Life on 6/8/2015 9:22:16 PM Click to expand You're missing the point entirely. I never even discussed eliminating IR all together. I was talking about the notion of homogenizing race in porn, and how it would work from a practical standpoint. You'll also note that I said I'm against doing that. But my point was that if you (or anybody else) want everybody (black and white) treated the same in porn, then you can't cater to fetishes that are centered around the different races not being the same. Its pretty simple. If a consumer insists that a black man has to be in a scene to watch it, that right there proves in that consumer's eyes that a black man and a white man aren't the same. I know this is going to blow some minds, but if you want to treat people equally... you have to treat them equally. Traditional fetishized IR doesn't treat black men and white men equally. The flip side of that coin is you're going to allow studios to cater specifically who want to see black male talent, then you're going to have to live with studios that cater specifically to people who want to see white male talent. Generally in life to get the stuff you do want, you have to put up with a lot of shit you don't want. Race is a complicated issue and there are no simple fixes. But the point I've been trying to make over and over is that any racism you perceive coming from the industry is just of a result of racism from the consumers. If every member of the porn buying public was unbiased when it comes to race and had no racial preferences, then the content produced by everyone would reflect that. But that's not the world we live in. We live in a world where people do have racial preferences in porn so instead the content produced reflects that. And that doesn't even touch the subject of black women in porn. From what I can tell in reading several of these threads, very few IR fans seem very concerned with the plight of black women in porn because IR fans are more interested in watching white women in porn. Funny how so many of these social crusades only extend as far as a person's own preferences. [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 9:37AM Porn can't keep catering to the audience it is now. The white guy fantasy market is drying up and as it does so does the industry. It is like Bangbros coming to this forum to get new ideas lol what do they expect. IR has been around since day1 but to a very small demographic it is still new that market cannot sustain a industry. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 9:56AM ^ Do you have anything... anything at all to substantiate these ludicrous claims your making about the industry? I read in one of these threads that you evidently operated a failed group of brick and mortar porn stores years ago, but internet porn is an entirely different world than retail porn, not to mention you failed at that so I don't think that really helps your credibility out any. Can you substantiate any of these claims and trends you keep talking about with any real numbers or is this just your speculation as to how things are working? (contrary to all observed data) [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:02AM ^ If you read I operated a failed brick and mortar porn business you just substantiated my point. Porn can't keep catering to to the white guy fantasy market. [Link]

murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:14AM ^ Porn can't cater exclusively to any niche market for maximum success but that's true of any industry, not just porn. However just because you failed in your venture doesn't mean the industry as a whole is failing, though it does make for a convenient cop-out regarding your own failures. Sure it's nice to believe "I couldn't have succeeded because the industry is screwed up" but considering the number of brick and mortar stores that are succeeding I think you'll find that your premise goes out the window. Hop on I-75 or I-65 sometime and drive for a few hundred miles and you'll see 6 or 7 "Worlds Largest Adult Video Store!" along the way. You've asserted repeatedly that there isn't enough IR porn being produced, not enough black porn being produced and not enough black women in the industry, but you haven't provided anything to back up those assertions. Can you point to anything that backs up your assertions? Moreover you've continued to conclude that the industry is currently failing, and doomed to collapse if those things aren't changed. Can you point to anything that backs up those conclusions? [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:50AM You are saying I failed can you prove that..how do you define failed...where did you get the idea I failed...basically you are asking me to give you arguing points...the consensus among the thread is porn is struggling and since I was in the business for years I can surmise those observations have some truth. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:14AM Here are the top 10 All Time Best Selling Titles on Adult Empire: #1 Flashpoint - Wicked (No black cast) #2 Award Winning Sex Scenes - Vivid (no black cast) #3 Pirates - Digital Playground/Adam & Eve (no black cast) #4 Island Fever 3 - Digital Playground (no black cast) #5 All-Time Best Teen - Devil's Film (no black cast) #6 Wicked Legends: Volume 1 - Wicked (1 scene with Mr Marcus and Lex Steel) #7 All Star - Digital Playground (1 scene with Mr Marcus) #8 Dream Quest - Wicked (no black cast) #9 Briana Loves Jenna - Vivid (no black cast) #10 Bad Wives - Vivid (no black cast) Notice a trend there? I sure do. People buy white porn. Wanna know how many IR themed titles are in the top 100? 2. Tee - Double You - Oh. Two. That's it. (#38 and #94) Wanna know how many black themed titles are in the top 100? 0. None. Bupkiss. Only a handful of titles in the top 100 contain any black performers at all. And in case you were wondering, from the dozens and dozens of niches they cater to, the ones they have the most titles for are: Amateur, Teen, Lesbian, Black, Interracial. (that's including DVD and VOD, excluding compilations) so don't bother telling me that it's lack of choice hurting the sales because they have tons and tons of black and IR content. It's a very similar story if you go to the current best sellers there. Yeah, there are a few more IR titles in there but boring ol vanilla white on white porn is still far and away a better seller than black or IR porn. I'm not saying it's good or bad, that the most popular content is white on white. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. but it is the current state of the industry. So where is your proof that there is demand for more black and IR content? If so many more people are wanting it, then why aren't people buying it? Where can I see evidence of this alleged demand manifest itself? I do need to make one correction though. You didn't say that your porn bookstores failed, you just said that you were in the adult bookstore business so I just assumed that if they were successful that you'd still be doing it. So to set the record straight, did your bookstore business fail or not? Edited by - murdock on 6/9/2015 11:20:33 AM [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:23AM The biggest selling tape last year was the MiMi Faust sex tape. She is on the reality show Love and Hip Hop. The tape outsold Kim Kardashian, Pam Anderson and every celeb sex tape ever made and it is all black. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:25AM cartercruise wrote: Hi. Id like to chime in here since I seem to be a big point of discussion. I did not wait to shoot IR for the money. When I came into the industry, I had no intention of ever shooting IR because of the way I believed it was portrayed in porn. Although there is some negatively driven IR porn out there, I realized after a few months in the industry that it was not all like that (I am not a porn watcher, so I discovered this through working in the industry). When Blacked launched last year, I became particularly interested in them. I spoke to Greg last summer and told him I wanted to do my first interracial for the site. Around the same time, my career took off, and I was booked several months in advance. In fact, I was one of (if not THE) most shot girl in the biz last year. I can tell people what I want to do, but it comes down to the company to schedule it with my agent in time before I'm booked up. I was in no rush to do IR. I wasn't banging down doors to do it, but I had made it clear that I was ready and willing to do so. A couple companies approached me with projects which I was down for, but due to scheduling, etc they never came to fruition. At the end of 2014 it was decided that I would shoot my first IR after AVN, which I later found out would be a showcase. I did not ask for a showcase, bht was offered it, much to my surprise. We began shooting in early 2015 and it took months to shoot, finishing in May. I'm really annoyed that I have to detail this whole process, but as it seems to be a huge point of contingency for many of you, here it is. Feel free to share with other haters on the interwebz. I literally could care less what color someone's skin is. The only reason I ever found IR objectionable is because of the type of stuff I'm reading on this forum which makes interracial a WAY bigger deal than it should be. I was most turned off by the people who would email me horrible things because I hadn't shot IR when I had every intention of doing so. Call me crazy, but proving I'm not racist to people who make countless anonymous twitter accounts to berate me for not doing IR isn't really my steez. I don't negotiate with terrorists, nor rush into action in order to prove a bully wrong. As for all the people who say I should have done IR before everything else I did... Relax. My first DP was unplanned, and was only my second anal scene in the business. It was scheduled for a BBG and we ended up doing a DP. The same thing happened with DV and I haven't done DA. I did ONE gang bang a few months before my first IR. Look, I'm from the south, so I get that racism still exists. It's awful and I've witnessed it first hand. However, I was not raised that way, and personally have a huge issue with any type of hate group, ESPECIALLY racism. At the same time, I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. Racism is ignorant and stupid, of which I am neither. It makes NO logical sense that one race is better than another, and I am always logical. Mostly, I believe in basic human respect. Regardless of age, gender, race, what the fuck ever, every person deserves to be treated with kindness and love. Individuals can lose this right, but not groups. This goes for blacks and whites, girls who shoot IR and girls who don't shoot IR. If a performer is blatantly racist, sure, go at if, but if she hasn't explicitly stated that, let's all do ourselves a favor and give her the benefit of the doubt, because the negative energy and hate isn't going to encourage anyone to jump into IR. Now, just shut up and enjoy my showcase because it's really good. The scene with Rob Piper and Riley Reid is my favorite and they are both very sexy. xoxo, Carter Click to expand Thank you for stopping by and taking the time to give us your perspective Carter. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 12:00PM ^ Agreed. Always nice to get the insider perspective. fredgee wrote: The biggest selling tape last year was the MiMi Faust sex tape. She is on the reality show Love and Hip Hop. The tape outsold Kim Kardashian, Pam Anderson and every celeb sex tape ever made and it is all black. Click to expand Yeah, and you've also made such absurd claims as: At one Time Jake Steed and Angel Kelly were the top stars in porn. Ray Victory was as popular as any male performer. Black Cheerleader search is probably the best selling series in porn history followed by Black street hookers. Click to expand Do you have any evidence to support these claims, or are you just going to dodge the question yet again? (If you're just going to keep dodging the question, just say so and I'll save us both some time and stop asking) [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 12:17PM ^ I will post the information when you admit you just want some attention. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 12:34PM ^ What in the world does that have to do with anything? Either you can substantiate your outlandish claims or you can't. Which is it? Edit: Not only was the Mimi tape not the best selling video last year, it wasn't even the best selling celebrity sex tape last year. Once again from Adult Empire here is the best selling "Home Made" movies of all time (the genre that has all of the celebrity sex tapes) #1 Pam & Tommy Lee: Hardcore #2 Kim Kardashian, Superstar #3 Farrah Superstar: Backdoor Teen Mom #4 Naughty Amateurs #2 #5 Kendra Exposed #6 Dare Dorm #7 Naughty Amateurs 4-Pack #8 Shauna Sand Exposed #9 Farrah 2: Backdoor and More #10 Naughty Amateurs #11 Karissa Shannon Superstar #12 Homegrown Video #621 #13 ATK Prengant Amateurs #14 Homegrown Video #597 #15 Naught Amateurs #3 #16 Homegrown Video #657 #17 Mimi & Nikko: Scandal in Atlanta Farrah 2: Backdoor & More was also released in 2014, so unless it inexplicably sold a boatload starting in 2015 in would be pretty tough for Mimi to have outsold it in 2014. And you claim about it outselling the Pam & Tommy Lee tape and the Kim K tape is laughable. Under that same category but refined to Current Bestsellers, the Mimi take comes in at #353 (The Kim K tape in that same ranking is #5 and Pam & Tommy Lee still well ahead at #76 despite having been released almost 2 decades ago) Edited by - murdock on 6/9/2015 1:24:39 PM [Link]
ghost88 Member 615 Posts 9/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 5:53PM Some would say the act itself is more degrading than interracial. Hardcore anal gangbangs, getted urinated on, and the list goes on. Are these extreme acts not degrading as well? Some will say porn itself is degrading. Selling your body for money is considered degrading. This is why I don't think interracial will ever be considered a top genre as to how low it is viewed. No I don't think girls should get paid more to do IR. Paying girls more for IR is hurting the category. A girl is worth more when she is fresh and hasn't shot a bunch of scenes. Especially if those scenes are of the extreme nature. Girls who wait encourage other girls to do the same. Kota Skye is an example of girl waited for a big pay day, and burned out before that happened. Most girls who wait never end of doing it, they are out the business before it ever happens. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of girls doing IR from the start. They clearly aren't as valued as those who wait for their big pay day. I see so many girls on agencies ready to shoot IR but don't get any work. The second a dodger/non-IR girl crosses she is crowned the queen of IR, getting all the work, and getting paid a lot more money than those who will do it from the start. So what is the point? I just don't see one. Every girl should wait, seems to be more money for girls in the long run. The downside of that is IR would go out of business, but whatever. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 6:33PM ghost88 wrote: Girls who wait encourage other girls to do the same. Kota Skye is an example of girl waited for a big pay day, and burned out before that happened. Most girls who wait never end of doing it, they are out the business before it ever happens. Click to expand Agreed. ghost88 wrote: Sometimes I wonder what is the point of girls doing IR from the start. They clearly aren't as valued as those who wait for their big pay day. Click to expand To the extent that is true (Anikka Albrite seems pretty valued to me), there are a variety of factors in play. A lot of these pornstars need a better agent and/or publicist. Some may be lackluster performers. Plus it's easy to not get noticed unless you're shooting IR for a major site or sites. ghost88 wrote: The second a dodger/non-IR girl crosses she is crowned the queen of IR, getting all the work, and getting paid a lot more money than those who will do it from the start. Click to expand That is another generalization, but if you consider those cases I think you'll find that most of those pornstars were already big names to begin with. They were proven, accomplished performers with a fanbase. It's pointless to compare them to new pornstars. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 6:40:51 PM [Link]

fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:31PM Mimi Faust sextape breaks record [Link]
rhodium Member A cracked polystyrene man 183 Posts 6/11	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:43PM murdock wrote: But my point was that if you (or anybody else) want everybody (black and white) treated the same in porn, then you can't cater to fetishes that are centered around the different races not being the same. Its pretty simple. If a consumer insists that a black man has to be in a scene to watch it, that right there proves in that consumer's eyes that a black man and a white man aren't the same. I know this is going to blow some minds, but if you want to treat people equally... you have to treat them equally. Traditional fetishized IR doesn't treat black men and white men equally. Click to expand Haven't read much of the thread but this seems like the point to win the debate. However, you simply cannot convince those who are already incapable of any level of self-reflection. But I wish you good luck. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:51PM rhodium wrote: However, you simply cannot convince those who are already incapable of any level of self-reflection. Click to expand And the award for the most arrogant remark on the thread goes to... [Link]
rhodium Member A cracked polystyrene man 183 Posts 6/11	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:53PM ^ I can top it. “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” - Mark Twain As you were. [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:05PM misspornUSA wrote: ^^As you said, we'll have to agree to disagree about what equality means and whether the fetishization of black men is the root of the problem. Click to expand I just have to ask...Is there any part of you that sees/understands at all what we've been talking about with the whole fetish aspect as it pretains to morals, equality and such? Two people have repeatedly explained why you can't have the equality/morality you want and your defense/comeback is not much more than "It doesn't have to be that way". Most of what you're saying doesn't seem to be any sort of real answers or practical sulutions but just you kinda saying "I don't like it and it shouldn't be that way..." [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:15PM cartercruise wrote: I'm really annoyed that I have to detail this whole process, but as it seems to be a huge point of contingency for many of you, here it is. Feel free to share with other haters on the interwebz. I literally could care less what color someone's skin is. The only reason I ever found IR objectionable is because of the type of stuff I'm reading on this forum which makes interracial a WAY bigger deal than it should be. I was most turned off by the people who would email me horrible things because I hadn't shot IR when I had every intention of doing so. Call me crazy, but proving I'm not racist to people who make countless anonymous twitter accounts to berate me for not doing IR isn't really my steez. I don't negotiate with terrorists, nor rush into action in order to prove a bully wrong. xoxo, Carter Click to expand Thank you for taking the time to clear things up that really shouldn't be an issue to begin with. The funny thing is that some of the people here are probably annoyed that you came here with your side and now that it came from you they can't take random quotes and videoes to make try to make the arguement that you're some pornstar with an evil IR agenda. Another reason why I always try to see things from the pornstar's side...because of the nonsense you guys have to put up with from people who are supposedly fans. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:45PM Draxxx wrote: misspornUSA wrote: ^^As you said, we'll have to agree to disagree about what equality means and whether the fetishization of black men is the root of the problem. Click to expand I just have to ask...Is there any part of you that sees/understands at all what we've been talking about with the whole fetish aspect as it pretains to morals, equality and such? Two people have repeatedly explained why you can't have the equality/morality you want and your defense/comeback is not much more than "It doesn't have to be that way". Most of what you're saying doesn't seem to be any sort of real answers or practical sulutions but just you kinda saying "I don't like it and it shouldn't be that way..." Click to expand murdock is one person, not two, and how the fetishization of black men and interracial sex pertains to morality hasn't really been discussed. I've already said to murdock that I disagree with him on how fetishization pertains to equality. Do you demand that I accept murdock's argument because you happen to agree with it? EDIT: I think that I would be satisfied with a lesser equality within the industry than what murdock envisions, that is what I meant when in response to him I wrote: "I think that the equality I want to see take place and the equality you (I think) want to see take place is not the same thing." murdock's vision can only be realized in a post-racial society. I'm setting my sights a bit lower. The only practical solution I can see is for pornstars to opt out of the game. As you know, that is what I have been saying for sometime now on this thread. Krissy Lynn, herself a veteran pornstar, called for pornstars to take a stand. Multiple other pornstars over the years, both on this forum, in written and video interviews, etc. have done the same. If more and more women in the industry refuse to cooperate with the industry's segregation of black males, that segregation will collapse. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 10:55:24 PM [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:08PM misspornUSA wrote: Draxxx wrote: misspornUSA wrote: ^^As you said, we'll have to agree to disagree about what equality means and whether the fetishization of black men is the root of the problem. Click to expand I just have to ask...Is there any part of you that sees/understands at all what we've been talking about with the whole fetish aspect as it pretains to morals, equality and such? Two people have repeatedly explained why you can't have the equality/morality you want and your defense/comeback is not much more than "It doesn't have to be that way". Most of what you're saying doesn't seem to be any sort of real answers or practical sulutions but just you kinda saying "I don't like it and it shouldn't be that way..." Click to expand murdock is one person, not two, and how the fetishization of black men and interracial sex pertains to morality hasn't really been discussed. Click to expand Okay. I thought both Murdock and I explained our take on it at length, so I guess I have no idea what you want to hear or what it is you're asking. Do you demand that I accept murdock's argument because you happen to agree with it? Click to expand No. I simply asked if any part of you see the point he tried making or if you're just dissmissing it outright. Even if you don't agree with someone it's possible to see or understand their point of view. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:15PM ^If the following is what you're referring to (the post in which you wrote at length about how the fetishization of black males and interracial sex pertains to morality), then I already responded to it on the previous page. Draxxx wrote: misspornUSA wrote: In the post in which I am quoting now and and the one in which I quoted previously you explained why porn is segregated, not why that segregation is morally justifiable. It is the latter than I am asking you about. Click to expand Bcause it's a business that deals in genres, fetishes and fantasy as I've said repeatedly. Porn is a business where morals aren't the driving factor. There's a long list of immoral things happening in porn but you just choose to focus on this one part. The supply and demand nature of porn dictates it won't be moral like you'd expect from the real world. If porn always did what's morally right then lots what it offers goes away. Is it morally right to slap women? Is it morally right to show rape fantasies? Is it morally right to show women treated as pieces of meat? Is it morally right to depict incest? You want to pick and choose which morality they respect. That's why I see it as "justifiable". Because of the audience the segregation is justifiable. Some black men have greatly benefitted from that segregation. Porn isn't a bar where they won't let black people in to be served. It's a business that calls for different people to serve different roles. Some of those roles serve a bigger part of the audience than others. That's why things will never be equal for everyone in porn. You claim it's not all about morality for but it seems that's the only side you have any real interest in. The only business aspect you've mentioned is how waiting for a bigger payday is going to somehow ruin porn and when pressed "ruining" porn to you had something to do with you feeling the white male peformers were lacking and that somehow lead to white women wanting money was awful for black males. Click to expand [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:19PM ^^No, I'm not dismissing him outright. I'm just calling for something less than what I believe he would like to see take place. [Link]

misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:22PM Draxxx wrote: Even if you don't agree with someone it's possible to see or understand their point of view. Click to expand Maybe you wrote your response before I edited mine: misspornUSA wrote: EDIT: I think that I would be satisfied with a lesser equality within the industry than what murdock envisions, that is what I meant when in response to him I wrote: "I think that the equality I want to see take place and the equality you (I think) want to see take place is not the same thing." murdock's vision can only be realized in a post-racial society. I'm setting my sights a bit lower. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 10:55:24 PM Click to expand EDIT: I have to admit that I am surprised that you are inquiring about whether or not I am closed minded. You have been commenting on this thread since the beginning, and therefore know full well that my opinion about all of this has evolved from page 1 to page 12. Maybe my views on this matter haven't developed in a direction that you are able to respect, but they clearly have not stayed stagnant. I am not a dogmatist. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 11:45:02 PM [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 1:05AM fredgee wrote: Mimi Faust sextape breaks record Click to expand That's great and all, but that tape didn't break any sales records that I can find. It broke some pre-sale records which isn't exactly shocking compared to other sex-tapes since pre-sales didn't even exist when most of them were released. Do you have any evidence to back up what you've previously claimed or are you going to revise your earlier statement to "pre-sales" and call it a day? [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:29AM misspornUSA wrote: murdock is one person, not two, and how the fetishization of black men and interracial sex pertains to morality hasn't really been discussed. I've already said to murdock that I disagree with him on how fetishization pertains to equality. Do you demand that I accept murdock's argument because you happen to agree with it? EDIT: I think that I would be satisfied with a lesser equality within the industry than what murdock envisions, that is what I meant when in response to him I wrote: "I think that the equality I want to see take place and the equality you (I think) want to see take place is not the same thing." murdock's vision can only be realized in a post-racial society. I'm setting my sights a bit lower. The only practical solution I can see is for pornstars to opt out of the game. As you know, that is what I have been saying for sometime now on this thread. Krissy Lynn, herself a veteran pornstar, called for pornstars to take a stand. Multiple other pornstars over the years, both on this forum, in written and video interviews, etc. have done the same. If more and more women in the industry refuse to cooperate with the industry's segregation of black males, that segregation will collapse. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 10:55:24 PM Click to expand Well to be clear what I described wasn't my vision. I was simply describing racial equality in porn. And yes, I agree it won't be realized until we're in a post-racial society. That was sort of the point in bringing that vision up, in that what you said you wanted (racial equality) isn't a practical goal today. Now you may very well have meant something else, but what you said was, you wanted equality, and there are no degrees of equality. Equality is an absolute. Things are either equal or they are not. When you ask for equality you are asking for a very specific thing. Having said all that, I still disagree with you assertions. Segregation isn't rooted within the industry. It comes from outside of the industry. Traditional fetishized IR is a significant contributor to that. Traditional Fetishized IR is based on black and white people not being equal. It's based on black and white people not being treated the same. I think those to points are pretty much inarguable, but if you have a dissenting opinion, I'd love to hear a rebuttal. From what I can tell the popular black performers get a significant amount of their work doing IR scenes. That is the reason they are segregated in the first place. They aren't seen as male talent, they are seen as black male talent because the bulk of the scenes they do dictate them as such. How do you book an IR scene without hiring a black man? You don't. Congratulations, you've just segregated black men. That's not to say that traditional IR is the only problem. It clearly isn't. And I don't focus on it to lay some guilt trip on you and make you feel bad for liking segregated porn. I point it out to make you aware that what you're wanting to fix is going to effect you in ways that you might not like. It holds true for people that just want to watch plane ol vanilla porn too, but I'm not sure there are many in this thread that fit that bill so that's why I don't bring it up much, but the same thing applies to them of course. Now maybe there is other segregation going on outside of IR scenes, and you feel that black men aren't getting enough work outside of that niche. And I agree, but also disagree. I think they are clearly underutilized in racially neutral roles, and would like to see a more racially diverse cast in mainstream porn. However I also recognize that if we're going to allow racial segregation/discrimination over here (for IR porn) that we need to allow for racial segregation/discrimination over here (in some non-IR porn) because it is a) more fair and b) more profitable as I already demonstrated above with the top selling porn posts. I really don't see what a bunch of actresses boycotting is going to change, other than hurt the industry as a whole. If the problem resides outside of the industry (and I think I've pretty clearly demonstrated that it does) then you aren't going to fix it within the industry. Actresses boycotting won't change the fact that a lot of consumers want IR porn. It won't change the fact that a lot of customers want white on white porn. The way I see it is the industry can either ignore what their customers want and shoehorn some political correctness into business that isn't ready for it, and cripple their sales, in order to make you feel better about watching a product that ironically won't be produced anymore because of what you want, or they can acknowledge what their consumers want, and deliver it to them without a bunch of self indulgent moral baggage. The difference between porn and Hollywood is Hollywood risking much larger sums of money on these big films and they are scared to push the envelope with racially diverse casts when they know America is perfectly happy watching movies featuring Vanilla McWhiterson, while porn is making tons of racially diverse stuff (most fetishized, some not) and the movies featuring Vanilla McWhiterson are still making the most money. What that tells me is that the porn buying public still really cares about the skin color of their performers, and I don't see how boycotting starlets is going to change that. From what I can tell though it appears that you think an exception should be made for IR porn but you haven't offered any justification for why that exception should exist. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 3:45AM ^ It feels like you're not willing to accept that you two have different meanings for equality that are both valid. To you, equality means that everyone is treated the same, regardless of race. To misspornUSA, equality can also mean that everyone is given the same opportunities, regardless of race. I feel like this is going so sound weird to say, but treating everyone equally doesn't have to mean treating everyone the same because, well, people are different. Edit: And when misspornUSA talks about not playing the game, I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about boycotting the industry, just choosing to do IR at the start of their careers. Which is what Krissy Lynn was talking about. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 6/10/2015 3:48:19 AM [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 5:02AM whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ It feels like you're not willing to accept that you two have different meanings for equality that are both valid. Click to expand I'll accept whatever definition she wants to put forth, but thus far all she's done is say "no, that's not what I mean" and when questioned further about it, offer some ambigiuosly meaningless explination of what she wants. I can't agree or disagree with what she's saying if she can't articulate it in a meaningful way. To you, equality means that everyone is treated the same, regardless of race. To misspornUSA, equality can also mean that everyone is given the same opportunities, regardless of race. Click to expand But she clearly doesn't want everyone to have the same opportunities, regardless of race. Supporting traditional BM/WF IR is in direct opposition to that. I feel like this is going so sound weird to say, but treating everyone equally doesn't have to mean treating everyone the same because, well, people are different. Click to expand No, I totally get what you're saying because this is an extremely complicated issue, which is why there isn't any simple fix for things. As I've said time and time again, the state of the industry is a direct result of the state of society. You're not going to "fix" the former until the latter is fixed. Edit: And when misspornUSA talks about not playing the game, I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about boycotting the industry, just choosing to do IR at the start of their careers. Which is what Krissy Lynn was talking about. Click to expand Changing when someone chooses to shoot IR doesn't fix anything, especially with regards to some set of morals that misspornUSA insists on referencing. It seems like a rather silly argument to start with. It seems highly unlikely that the performer's decision making changed dramatically from the start of their career to the time they decided to do interracial. If they weren't doing it for racist reasons, they're still probably a racist when they took the big hunk of money to do it. (but of course deciding to take that big payday actually offers more opportunities for black men in porn, not less) And if they weren't holding out for racist reasons, then they were almost certainly doing it for personal reasons, or career reasons. Both of those seem like pretty valid reasons for a person to choose not to fuck someone else. Last I checked in this country, every single human being was granted the right to choose who they don't fuck. Last I checked in this country, not one single human being has ever been granted the right to choose who they do fuck. I don't have the right to fuck anybody. Neither do you. Neither does misspornUSA. However, I can decline to fuck any and everyone. So can you, so can misspornUSA. That's a pretty fundamental part of what most 1st world society is built upon. And that is one of the problems with just going along with what Krissy Lynn has to say. It's a great idea on the surface (Let black men have equal opportunity) but it falls apart when you actually look at how it will work out. The reason that black men don't have the same opportunity is because of demand from the porn buying world. And the logic doesn't even hold up on the most basic levels. There is a finite amount of porn being shot anyway. If there is demand for an interracial scene then an interracial scene is shot. That means a black man got his opportunity. The misspornUSA theory (as you've described it) presumes that if more actresses are available for longer parts of their career to shoot IR, that more IR will be shot, and nothing I know about business supports that. If there is evidence to support the porn buying public is willing to pay for more IR content to be produced, I certainly haven't seen it. And that whole premise is defeated by the most obvious loophole in the world anyway. Step 1: Start Porn career. List available to shoot IR Step 2: Don't shoot IR for a year Step 3: Profit$ [Link]
Curtom Deactivated User 293 Posts 8/14	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 10:03AM The misspornUSA theory (as you've described it) presumes that if more actresses are available for longer parts of their career to shoot IR, that more IR will be shot, and nothing I know about business supports that. If there is evidence to support the porn buying public is willing to pay for more IR content to be produced, I certainly haven't seen it. And that whole premise is defeated by the most obvious loophole in the world anyway. Step 1: Start Porn career. List available to shoot IR Step 2: Don't shoot IR for a year Step 3: Profit$ Click to expand What the hell are you saying!!! So you're telling me that if more pornstars were available to shoot IR, that there wouldn't be more opportunity to shoot IR? Huh? Do you see what is wrong with such faulty logic? LCF tried to reason the same argument on another treat and I still don't see what the hell you guys are trying to say. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 10:41AM Curtom wrote: What the hell are you saying!!! So you're telling me that if more pornstars were available to shoot IR, that there wouldn't be more opportunity to shoot IR? Huh? Do you see what is wrong with such faulty logic? LCF tried to reason the same argument on another treat and I still don't see what the hell you guys are trying to say. Click to expand I'm saying that production of IR is dictated right now by demand for IR, not availability of IR performers to shoot. You could add one woman to the "available to shoot IR" list or a million, and it isn't going to create more scenes shot. Even if Alexis Texas said she wanted to shoot an IR showcase today, that wouldn't mean more opportunities for black performers. It just means one less IR movie is going to made without Alexis Texas, somewhere along the line, but it'll still be the same number of IR shoots, which means the same number of opportunities for black males. It's a wash. Conversely, as noble as Krissy Lynn may think she's being, nobody got any extra IR work because she decided to shoot IR from day one. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that Krissy did it from day one. She should be applauded for doing what she believes is the right thing. I also think it would be great if everybody else did too, but all that is going to change is the variety of IR porn, not the necessarily the quantity. It's also entirely possible that if a wider variety of female talent was doing IR, there would be more "first time" shoots, and bigger female names attached which could drive the price of IR up and the demand down and create fewer opportunities for black men in porn. So not only would this fantasy of everyone shooting IR from day one not necessarily work, it has the very real potential to make things worse. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 12:15PM murdock wrote: Equality is an absolute. Things are either equal or they are not. When you ask for equality you are asking for a very specific thing. Click to expand Things can be more equal or less equal. I'm a woman. We don't have full equality, but we have more equality than we did in the '50s, '60s, etc. Blacks don't have full equality in society at large, but they have more equality than they did before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other pieces of civil rights legislation. My partner is a lesbian. The GLBTQI community does not have full equality, but we have more equality than we did in any preceding decade. I can continue to list examples, but you probably understand what I mean. murdock wrote: Having said all that, I still disagree with you assertions. Segregation isn't rooted within the industry. It comes from outside of the industry. Traditional fetishized IR is a significant contributor to that. Traditional Fetishized IR is based on black and white people not being equal. It's based on black and white people not being treated the same. I think those to points are pretty much inarguable, but if you have a dissenting opinion, I'd love to hear a rebuttal. From what I can tell the popular black performers get a significant amount of their work doing IR scenes. That is the reason they are segregated in the first place. They aren't seen as male talent, they are seen as black male talent because the bulk of the scenes they do dictate them as such. How do you book an IR scene without hiring a black man? You don't. Congratulations, you've just segregated black men. Click to expand Is "Traditional Fetishized IR" a barrier to the absolute equality that you speak of? Yes. But I am not calling for absolute equality, which we both agree will only come about in a post-racial society. murdock wrote: That's not to say that traditional IR is the only problem. It clearly isn't. And I don't focus on it to lay some guilt trip on you and make you feel bad for liking segregated porn. I point it out to make you aware that what you're wanting to fix is going to effect you in ways that you might not like. It holds true for people that just want to watch plane ol vanilla porn too, but I'm not sure there are many in this thread that fit that bill so that's why I don't bring it up much, but the same thing applies to them of course. Click to expand If you're suggesting that the production of IR fetish would decline if black men began to appear more often outside IR fetish scenes, I'm aware of that possibility and have already made my peace with it. I'd miss the production values of mainstream porn, but the more extreme stuff is on Clips 4 Sale anyway. murdock wrote: Now maybe there is other segregation going on outside of IR scenes, and you feel that black men aren't getting enough work outside of that niche. And I agree, but also disagree. I think they are clearly underutilized in racially neutral roles, and would like to see a more racially diverse cast in mainstream porn. However I also recognize that if we're going to allow racial segregation/discrimination over here (for IR porn) that we need to allow for racial segregation/discrimination over here (in some non-IR porn) because it is a) more fair and b) more profitable as I already demonstrated above with the top selling porn posts. Click to expand Do we know how movies which feature 1 or 2 scenes in which black men are utilized outside of the IR genre would do on the market? We'd have to take into account a whole host of of other factors as well. If we're talking about dvds, who's on the cover and how much do movies with that pornstar on the cover usually sell? Who directed and how many units does that director usually sell? What kind of sex is in the movie? Etc., etc., etc. The questions would be similar for downloads. Do blowbangs or gangbangs in which a couple or a few black men participate sell less or receive less (legal) downloads than blowbangs or gangbangs that are entirely non-black? If so, has causality been established? Again, we'd have to account for a variety of other factors as well. I think it is strange that a pornstar will chide fans for making an issue out of IR, and then insist that their first IR consist of an entire showcase. What if their first IR were a black guy during a gangbang? That would be the very definition of not making a big deal out of first IR. murdock wrote: I really don't see what a bunch of actresses boycotting is going to change, other than hurt the industry as a whole. If the problem resides outside of the industry (and I think I've pretty clearly demonstrated that it does) then you aren't going to fix it within the industry. Actresses boycotting won't change the fact that a lot of consumers want IR porn. It won't change the fact that a lot of customers want white on white porn. Click to expand What boycott are you talking about? I suggested that pornstars list availability for IR from the beginning, not that they boycott anything. murdock wrote: The way I see it is the industry can either ignore what their customers want and shoehorn some political correctness into business that isn't ready for it, and cripple their sales, in order to make you feel better about watching a product that ironically won't be produced anymore because of what you want, or they can acknowledge what their consumers want, and deliver it to them without a bunch of self indulgent moral baggage. Click to expand I want porn to change to make me feel better? Who knew that the segregation of black men in the industry hurt my feelings? We don't know that sales would be hurt. "Do we know how movies which feature 1 or 2 scenes in which black men are utilized outside of the IR genre would do on the market? We'd have to take into account a whole host of of other factors as well. If we're talking about dvds, who's on the cover and how much to movies with that pornstar on the cover usually sell? Who directed and how much does that director usually sell? What kind of sex is in the movie? Etc. The questions would be similar for downloads. "Do blowbangs or gangbangs in which a couple or a few black men participate sell less or receive less (legal) downloads than blowbangs or gangbangs that are entirely non-black? If so, has causality been established? Again, we'd have to account for a variety of other factors before making a determination." murdock wrote: The difference between porn and Hollywood is Hollywood risking much larger sums of money on these big films and they are scared to push the envelope with racially diverse casts when they know America is perfectly happy watching movies featuring Vanilla McWhiterson, while porn is making tons of racially diverse stuff (most fetishized, some not) and the movies featuring Vanilla McWhiterson are still making the most money. What that tells me is that the porn buying public still really cares about the skin color of their performers, and I don't see how boycotting starlets is going to change that. Click to expand Responded to above. murdock wrote: From what I can tell though it appears that you think an exception should be made for IR porn but you haven't offered any justification for why that exception should exist. Click to expand That is a much larger topic. Were we to discuss fetishization in porn, I would start by exploring the fetishization of women. The fetishization of black men pales in comparison. You wrote earlier that "assism, or titism" doesn't exist. Well, sexism exists, but these are issues for another thread that I probably wouldn't participate in anyway, lol. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:15:42 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 12:20PM For the record, I haven't argued and will never argue that any woman in the industry should be forced to shoot with a black man. Were the industry to be desegregated women who place all black men on their "no list" would naturally get a lot less work than they do now, but they wouldn't be "forced" to do anything. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:22:12 PM [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 1:04PM misspornUSA wrote: Things can be more equal or less equal. I'm a woman. We don't have full equality, but we have more equality than we did in the '50s, '60s, etc. Blacks don't have full equality in society at large, but they have more equality than they did before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other pieces of civil rights legislation. My partner is a lesbian. The GLBTQI community does not have full equality, but we have more equality than we did in any preceding decade. I can continue to list examples, but you probably understand what I mean. Click to expand I'm sorry but you're mistaken. You aren't describing degrees of equality. Equality doesn't have degrees, it is an absolute. What you are describing is varying degrees of inequality. That was my point before is you aren't really looking for equality, you're just looking for a different degree of inequality. That's fine, but call it what it is. Is "Traditional Fetishized IR" a barrier to the absolute equality that you speak of? Yes. But I am not calling for absolute equality, which we both agree will only come about in a post-racial society. Click to expand Right, we've already established that your goal is some different level of inequality. Am I going to have to keep guessing and have you say "Nope, that's not it." or will you ever just come out and say what you're end goal is? If you're suggesting that the production of IR fetish would decline if black men began to appear more often outside IR fetish scenes, I'm aware of that possibility and have already made my peace with it. I'd miss the production values of mainstream porn, but the more extreme stuff is on Clips 4 Sale anyway. Click to expand Well yes, but the converse is also true. By supporting the IR fetish you're keeping black men out of mainstream roles. It goes both ways. Do we know how movies which feature 1 or 2 scenes in which black men are utilized outside of the IR genre would do on the market? We'd have to take into account a whole host of of other factors as well. If we're talking about dvds, who's on the cover and how much do movies with that pornstar on the cover usually sell? Who directed and how many units does that director usually sell? What kind of sex is in the movie? Etc., etc., etc. The questions would be similar for downloads. Do blowbangs or gangbangs in which a couple or a few black men participate sell less or receive less (legal) downloads than blowbangs or gangbangs that are entirely non-black? If so, has causality been established? Again, we'd have to account for a variety of other factors as well. Click to expand Those are all fair questions, but the ultimate answer is still "white on white" porn is the best selling porn over time. You can break it down however you want but that is still the ultimate conclusion. I'm sure if you break it down far enough you'll find some exceptions where IR outsells Vanilla porn. but it doesn't matter because we aren't after the details, what matters is the ultimate conclusion. If I do a scientific study and and determine that a a pedestrian hit by a bus is less likely to survive a collision compared to a pedestrian hit by a bicycle. It doesn't matter if you find a single instance where the bicycle victim died and the bus victim survived. It doesn't matter if the bus was white or green, diesel or hybrid, driven by a man or a woman... the ultimate conclusion is still that buses are more deadly than bicycles, so breaking it down further serves no purpose other than to obfuscate the results. (not that that's what you were attempting to do or anything) I think it is strange that a pornstar will chide fans for making an issue out of IR, and then insist that their first IR consist of an entire showcase. What if their first IR were a black guy during a gangbang? That would be the very definition of not making a big deal out of first IR. Click to expand Um that came out of nowhere. But why is that hard to understand? If the pornstar is chiding fans for badgering her about performing (or not performing) IR that strikes me as a reasonable thing to do regardless of what one's stance on IR happens to be, and insisting on a showcase is a business decision. i.e. "It's none of your damn business if and when I choose to do a scene with a black man. It is my business though in the most literal sense of the word and I will act accordingly." What boycott are you talking about? I suggested that pornstars list availability for IR from the beginning, not that they boycott anything. Click to expand My mistake. Once again since you hadn't actually said what it was you wanted. After finding the Krissy Lynn tweets I have since addressed that in a subsequent post. I want porn to change to make me feel better? Who knew that the segregation of black men in the industry hurt my feelings? Click to expand Well you don't seem interested in equality in the industry... just some lip service to minimizing inequality (even though you can't actually bring yourself to call it what it is) as long as it doesn't effect your own preferences in porn. Funny how many people on here that seem to be on some sort of social crusade that just so happens to line up with their porn preferences. What else am I supposed to conclude? That is a much larger topic. Were we to discuss fetishization in porn, I would start by exploring the fetishization of women. The fetishization of black men pales in comparison. You wrote earlier that "assism, or titism" doesn't exist. Well, sexism exists, but these are issues for another thread that I probably wouldn't participate in anyway, lol. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:15:42 PM Click to expand I wrote that? That doesn't sound like something I would write, but if you say so. Anyway, you have asked for moral justification from others, so I'm asking it of you. How do you morally justify your IR fetish, when it is a contributing factor to the inequality of black men in porn? [Link]

House117 Member 27 Posts 4/14	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 1:32PM ^^^^ Well said miss Cruise. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:01PM ^^I've already described what I would like to see take place. Now you want to argue over semantics. I wrote that things can be more equal or less equal, a concept which you regard as nonsensical. However, I am in good company. Although relationships between the sexes are more equal today than in the past, many—though assuredly not all—women and men today may have internalized divergent sexual scripts or messages. Marriages, Families, and Relationships: Making Choices in a Diverse Society Mary Ann Lamanna, Agnes Riedmann, Susan Stewart Cengage Learning, 2014. The father has the main voice in disputes on starting school, discipline, and other matters, but things are more equal today. Urban Life in Contemporary China Martin King Whyte, William L. Parish University of Chicago Press, 1985. In sum, as measured by a wide variety of indicators Japanese society is more equal today than it was twenty-five years ago. Education and Training in Japan, Volume 1 Thomas P. Rohlen, Christopher Bjork Taylor & Francis, 1998. Let us end this silly diversion over semantics. The end goal of a post-racial society will obviously come from outside of porn, not within it. I already responded to your "white on white" sales comment. The porn I'm talking about needs to actually be made before we can compare sales. You are comparing sales of "white on white" to IR fetish porn. My comments about pornstars did not "come out of nowhere." I wrote about gangbangs and blowbangs, then continued writing about gangbangs and blowbangs. My point was that if pornstars do not treat "first IR" like a big deal, which most undeniably do, it would no longer be as big a deal as it is now. I already wrote that I've made peace with how my porn preferences might be affected. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 2:08:26 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:06PM misspornUSA wrote: misspornusa wrote: That is a much larger topic. Were we to discuss fetishization in porn, I would start by exploring the fetishization of women. The fetishization of black men pales in comparison. You wrote earlier that "assism, or titism" doesn't exist. Well, sexism exists, but these are issues for another thread that I probably wouldn't participate in anyway, lol. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:15:42 PM Click to expand murdock wrote: I wrote that? That doesn't sound like something I would write, but if you say so. Click to expand Huh? murdock wrote: misspornUSA wrote: You have a right to watch whatever kind of porn you'd like of course, but whether's we're talking about big dicks, big breasts, big asses or phat white asses specifically, most porn viewers are interested in the physical characteristics of the people whom they are watching. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/26/2015 6:42:32 PM Click to expand Completely agree. And if there were such a thing as assism, or titism, or bigdickism, I'd make the same claims about those as well. Just because your racial predilections manifest in a sexual way, that doesn't change what they are. Click to expand Not that that's settled. murdock wrote: Anyway, you have asked for moral justification from others, so I'm asking it of you. How do you morally justify your IR fetish, when it is a contributing factor to the inequality of black men in porn? Click to expand I already responded to your question. If that response was not to your liking, I apologize, but the question of fetishism is much larger than IR and I can't just skip to chapter 75 in discussing it. IR fetish porn may be a barrier to your "absolute equality" but not to the level of equality for which I am arguing. Absolute equality will not be born from within the industry, but from outside of it. I am under no illusions to the contrary. If all consumers stopped buying IR fetish porn tomorrow that would bring black, male pornstars to ruin. It would not help them in any way. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 2:10:30 PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 2:18:00 PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 3:40:43 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:21PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 3:40:33 PM [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 9:46PM misspornUSA wrote: EDIT: I have to admit that I am surprised that you are inquiring about whether or not I am closed minded. You have been commenting on this thread since the beginning, and therefore know full well that my opinion about all of this has evolved from page 1 to page 12. Maybe my views on this matter haven't developed in a direction that you are able to respect, but they clearly have not stayed stagnant. I am not a dogmatist. Click to expand I honestly don't remember details from the beginning. If there has been any evolution on your part it might not be as apparent as you might think. I believe you started out against waiting for a bigger pay day and from what I can your position stays the same. So what's different in your thinking from then until now? [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 9:58PM ^I was neither for or against it, but in an unsure middle (ie. It's probably not a good thing, but then again...). You needn't try to remember. It's right there on the first page. I certainly wasn't going so far as to call for the desegregation of porn, or for pornstars to opt out of playing the IR game, etc. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 12:15AM murdock wrote: whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ It feels like you're not willing to accept that you two have different meanings for equality that are both valid. Click to expand I'll accept whatever definition she wants to put forth, but thus far all she's done is say "no, that's not what I mean" and when questioned further about it, offer some ambigiuosly meaningless explination of what she wants. I can't agree or disagree with what she's saying if she can't articulate it in a meaningful way. To you, equality means that everyone is treated the same, regardless of race. To misspornUSA, equality can also mean that everyone is given the same opportunities, regardless of race. Click to expand But she clearly doesn't want everyone to have the same opportunities, regardless of race. Supporting traditional BM/WF IR is in direct opposition to that. I feel like this is going so sound weird to say, but treating everyone equally doesn't have to mean treating everyone the same because, well, people are different. Click to expand No, I totally get what you're saying because this is an extremely complicated issue, which is why there isn't any simple fix for things. As I've said time and time again, the state of the industry is a direct result of the state of society. You're not going to "fix" the former until the latter is fixed. Edit: And when misspornUSA talks about not playing the game, I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about boycotting the industry, just choosing to do IR at the start of their careers. Which is what Krissy Lynn was talking about. Click to expand Changing when someone chooses to shoot IR doesn't fix anything, especially with regards to some set of morals that misspornUSA insists on referencing. It seems like a rather silly argument to start with. It seems highly unlikely that the performer's decision making changed dramatically from the start of their career to the time they decided to do interracial. If they weren't doing it for racist reasons, they're still probably a racist when they took the big hunk of money to do it. (but of course deciding to take that big payday actually offers more opportunities for black men in porn, not less) And if they weren't holding out for racist reasons, then they were almost certainly doing it for personal reasons, or career reasons. Both of those seem like pretty valid reasons for a person to choose not to fuck someone else. Last I checked in this country, every single human being was granted the right to choose who they don't fuck. Last I checked in this country, not one single human being has ever been granted the right to choose who they do fuck. I don't have the right to fuck anybody. Neither do you. Neither does misspornUSA. However, I can decline to fuck any and everyone. So can you, so can misspornUSA. That's a pretty fundamental part of what most 1st world society is built upon. And that is one of the problems with just going along with what Krissy Lynn has to say. It's a great idea on the surface (Let black men have equal opportunity) but it falls apart when you actually look at how it will work out. The reason that black men don't have the same opportunity is because of demand from the porn buying world. And the logic doesn't even hold up on the most basic levels. There is a finite amount of porn being shot anyway. If there is demand for an interracial scene then an interracial scene is shot. That means a black man got his opportunity. The misspornUSA theory (as you've described it) presumes that if more actresses are available for longer parts of their career to shoot IR, that more IR will be shot, and nothing I know about business supports that. If there is evidence to support the porn buying public is willing to pay for more IR content to be produced, I certainly haven't seen it. And that whole premise is defeated by the most obvious loophole in the world anyway. Step 1: Start Porn career. List available to shoot IR Step 2: Don't shoot IR for a year Step 3: Profit$ Click to expand First off, let me say that I do understand where you're coming from. That there won't be "true equality" until every single role is racially neutral (i.e. any role can be played by a person of any race). Which is why you don't see "traditional IR" as a part of this, because those are roles that you would say a person that isn't black cannot play. I disagree, but I understand where you're coming from. Ignoring the fact that I don't think that's something that's really achievable in the foreseeable future, I honestly don't think it needs to happen for there to be equality. You can (and people do) shoot the non-IR equivalent to "traditional IR" scenes, where it's all about the white guy's huge dick, and maybe even adding that this is something she shouldn't be doing because she's a good girl. It's just that because it's not black-on-white, it's generally not seen as a fetish scene, but as just another mainstream one. To me, both of those types of scenes existing would be a sign of equality. Any person of any race can shoot that type of scene, but that doesn't mean that the market has to react to each of the scenes the same way. And as far as whether or not the market would buy IR porn if more IR porn was produced, I really don't think you can look at something like one retailer's all time sales charts and determine whether or not that's the case. If anything, what you would want to be looking at is AVN's top selling charts, which takes a cross section of multiple retailers and would give you a clearer picture of what the public is buying as a whole right now (which would be more important in terms of whether you're going to put something out for them to buy right now) as opposed to what they've bought over the past 5-10 years. Even then, it wouldn't necessarily give you a full idea of what the market will buy, only what the market has bought, which isn't really the same thing. As an example of why I think that way, I don't doubt that Adult Empire's all time sales list wouldn't have looked that much different at the beginning of last year, before Blacked came on to the scene. You would still be able to make the same arguments about how the market reacts to IR porn then. But Blacked is here now, and as far as anyone can tell is doing very well in terms of sales of DVDs, and probably in terms of memberships to their website as well (at the very least, they've done well enough to add an extra update every 2 weeks to their existing schedule). So the market will buy "more" IR content (I don't feel like Blacked has replaced any of the IR releases that were occurring in the year or two leading up to the site's launch), if it's presented to them in a way that they like. And as a point, agents don't list girls as available to for things they're unable to shoot, because producers will get pissed at them if they call looking to book a girl that says she's available for X, and are then told that no, she isn't. Do it enough times, and a producer will either stop calling about that girl because she can't be trusted to be available, or go even further and stop calling you about any of your girls in general because they can't trust that they're available for what you say they are. So that won't work. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:12AM ^I will leave it to you to further discuss this issue with murdock should he return. He and I have repeated ourselves more than enough times to each other after already having agreed to disagree. Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/11/2015 1:24:19 AM [Link]
matheuskramer Member 66 Posts 6/09	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:30AM Blacked is the best thing in porn those days and it is IR. They sell a lot and are 100% successful. By the way, Lansky is a genius and not only have the best quality but the best performers. The idea that IR do not sell is insane. [Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User "Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:50AM misspornUSA wrote: ^I will leave it to you to further discuss this issue with murdock should he return. He and I have repeated ourselves more than enough times to each other after already having agreed to disagree. Click to expand Yeah, you and him (murdock) have been like NASCAR drivers in this thread-just goin' around in circles. I also noticed how Carter Cruise's long, explanatory post in response to this thread was essentially glossed over by everyone here, proving that pornstars are wasting their time when they try to explain their career decisions to the "trolls" and "haters" that berate them online; these people, masked by anonymity, will believe what they want to and will never be swayed. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:57AM ^ Part of that is because most of the people still posting in this thread are reasonable people that never actually "berated" her in the first place, and a bigger part of that is because most of the berating ended up going to the Blacked.com thread, where she posted the exact same message. And then a tiny part of it is because she was the last post on the page, which probably means a bunch of people just flat out missed it after the new page was started. [Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User "Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 2:13AM ^ The people I'm referring to as "trolls" and "haters" are those you see on the BLACKED thread, not to mention all those she's encountered on her Twitter, etc. To be clear, I'm not calling the "regulars" of this thread, like misspornUSA and murdock, trolls and haters. [Link]
Interracial4Life Deactivated User 329 Posts 3/15	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 6:24AM matheuskramer wrote: Blacked is the best thing in porn those days and it is IR. They sell a lot and are 100% successful. By the way, Lansky is a genius and not only have the best quality but the best performers. The idea that IR do not sell is insane. Click to expand I think Murdock is wrong on IR doesn't sell, if you go to X-Rent sites on the Top 100 DVD Rated, Sale and Rental most on the Top 20 are mostly IR movies on there so yes IR does sell big. As for Blacked.com there sell more on there DVD too. [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 9:06AM Mass Facialties wrote: I also noticed how Carter Cruise's long, explanatory post in response to this thread was essentially glossed over by everyone here, proving that pornstars are wasting their time when they try to explain their career decisions to the "trolls" and "haters" that berate them online; these people, masked by anonymity, will believe what they want to and will never be swayed. Click to expand It's exactly why pornstars should do whatever they think is best for themselves and not spend too much time trying to please fans. So many fans have their own sets of rules and standards in their head on what and when a girl should do whatever like it's some sort of written law and have convinced themselves they know what's best for the girl. But in the end it's just the fan wanting to see what they want and a whole lot of rationalizing in their head why the girl needs to do what they want from them. So when a girl does set the record straight the "fan" is actually annoyed that the girl is going against what they thought and in most cases that fan doesn't believe the girl anyway. That's why you see little response to Carter's eplaination when we should be seeing a bunch "Gee, thanks for setting the record straight". [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 11:30AM ^Perhaps we should distinguish between trolls and fans? [Link]
Curtom Deactivated User 293 Posts 8/14	Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:41PM murdock wrote: ^ What in the world does that have to do with anything? Either you can substantiate your outlandish claims or you can't. Which is it? Edit: Not only was the Mimi tape not the best selling video last year, it wasn't even the best selling celebrity sex tape last year. Once again from Adult Empire here is the best selling "Home Made" movies of all time (the genre that has all of the celebrity sex tapes) #1 Pam & Tommy Lee: Hardcore #2 Kim Kardashian, Superstar #3 Farrah Superstar: Backdoor Teen Mom #4 Naughty Amateurs #2 #5 Kendra Exposed #6 Dare Dorm #7 Naughty Amateurs 4-Pack #8 Shauna Sand Exposed #9 Farrah 2: Backdoor and More #10 Naughty Amateurs #11 Karissa Shannon Superstar #12 Homegrown Video #621 #13 ATK Prengant Amateurs #14 Homegrown Video #597 #15 Naught Amateurs #3 #16 Homegrown Video #657 #17 Mimi & Nikko: Scandal in Atlanta Farrah 2: Backdoor & More was also released in 2014, so unless it inexplicably sold a boatload starting in 2015 in would be pretty tough for Mimi to have outsold it in 2014. And you claim about it outselling the Pam & Tommy Lee tape and the Kim K tape is laughable. Under that same category but refined to Current Bestsellers, the Mimi take comes in at #353 (The Kim K tape in that same ranking is #5 and Pam & Tommy Lee still well ahead at #76 despite having been released almost 2 decades ago) Edited by - murdock on 6/9/2015 1:24:39 PM Click to expand Pornhub Data 2014 From 9:00: Vivid's Love and Hip Hop is 4th highest viewed From 11:44: 'Ebony' porn is in the top five most viewed porn for both men and women. Edited by - Curtom on 6/11/2015 1:57:31 PM [Link]

Author

Post

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 4:11AM

Interracial4Life wrote:
If you get rid of IR then how would black men in porn get more work, IR is the only work they can get because some white companies don't shoot IR movies or sometime they do shoot IR scenes but in non IR movies. So IR is here to stay and if you get rid of then guys like Lexington Steele, Sean Michaels, and Prince or companies like Blacked.com would be out of the industry and end up working at a Target. It will also hurt them from making a brand and wining a awards. Eliminate IR means Eliminate black men from porn. BTW not all black men who are IR fans don't watch racist type of IR because that is made for white men, there a lack of porn for black men made by black men but Blacked.com is made for black men
Edited by - Interracial4Life on 6/8/2015 9:22:16 PM
Click to expand

You're missing the point entirely. I never even discussed eliminating IR all together. I was talking about the notion of homogenizing race in porn, and how it would work from a practical standpoint. You'll also note that I said I'm against doing that.
But my point was that if you (or anybody else) want everybody (black and white) treated the same in porn, then you can't cater to fetishes that are centered around the different races not being the same. Its pretty simple. If a consumer insists that a black man has to be in a scene to watch it, that right there proves in that consumer's eyes that a black man and a white man aren't the same. I know this is going to blow some minds, but if you want to treat people equally... you have to treat them equally. Traditional fetishized IR doesn't treat black men and white men equally.
The flip side of that coin is you're going to allow studios to cater specifically who want to see black male talent, then you're going to have to live with studios that cater specifically to people who want to see white male talent. Generally in life to get the stuff you do want, you have to put up with a lot of shit you don't want.
Race is a complicated issue and there are no simple fixes. But the point I've been trying to make over and over is that any racism you perceive coming from the industry is just of a result of racism from the consumers. If every member of the porn buying public was unbiased when it comes to race and had no racial preferences, then the content produced by everyone would reflect that. But that's not the world we live in. We live in a world where people do have racial preferences in porn so instead the content produced reflects that.
And that doesn't even touch the subject of black women in porn. From what I can tell in reading several of these threads, very few IR fans seem very concerned with the plight of black women in porn because IR fans are more interested in watching white women in porn. Funny how so many of these social crusades only extend as far as a person's own preferences.

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 9:37AM

Porn can't keep catering to the audience it is now. The white guy fantasy market is drying up and as it does so does the industry. It is like Bangbros coming to this forum to get new ideas lol what do they expect. IR has been around since day1 but to a very small demographic it is still new that market cannot sustain a industry.

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 9:56AM

^ Do you have anything... anything at all to substantiate these ludicrous claims your making about the industry?
I read in one of these threads that you evidently operated a failed group of brick and mortar porn stores years ago, but internet porn is an entirely different world than retail porn, not to mention you failed at that so I don't think that really helps your credibility out any.
Can you substantiate any of these claims and trends you keep talking about with any real numbers or is this just your speculation as to how things are working? (contrary to all observed data)

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:02AM

^ If you read I operated a failed brick and mortar porn business you just substantiated my point. Porn can't keep catering to to the white guy fantasy market.

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:14AM

^ Porn can't cater exclusively to any niche market for maximum success but that's true of any industry, not just porn.
However just because you failed in your venture doesn't mean the industry as a whole is failing, though it does make for a convenient cop-out regarding your own failures. Sure it's nice to believe "I couldn't have succeeded because the industry is screwed up" but considering the number of brick and mortar stores that are succeeding I think you'll find that your premise goes out the window. Hop on I-75 or I-65 sometime and drive for a few hundred miles and you'll see 6 or 7 "Worlds Largest Adult Video Store!" along the way.
You've asserted repeatedly that there isn't enough IR porn being produced, not enough black porn being produced and not enough black women in the industry, but you haven't provided anything to back up those assertions. Can you point to anything that backs up your assertions? Moreover you've continued to conclude that the industry is currently failing, and doomed to collapse if those things aren't changed. Can you point to anything that backs up those conclusions?

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:50AM

You are saying I failed can you prove that..how do you define failed...where did you get the idea I failed...basically you are asking me to give you arguing points...the consensus among the thread is porn is struggling and since I was in the business for years I can surmise those observations have some truth.

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:14AM

Here are the top 10 All Time Best Selling Titles on Adult Empire:
#1 Flashpoint - Wicked (No black cast)
#2 Award Winning Sex Scenes - Vivid (no black cast)
#3 Pirates - Digital Playground/Adam & Eve (no black cast)
#4 Island Fever 3 - Digital Playground (no black cast)
#5 All-Time Best Teen - Devil's Film (no black cast)
#6 Wicked Legends: Volume 1 - Wicked (1 scene with Mr Marcus and Lex Steel)
#7 All Star - Digital Playground (1 scene with Mr Marcus)
#8 Dream Quest - Wicked (no black cast)
#9 Briana Loves Jenna - Vivid (no black cast)
#10 Bad Wives - Vivid (no black cast)
Notice a trend there? I sure do. People buy white porn.
Wanna know how many IR themed titles are in the top 100? 2. Tee - Double You - Oh. Two. That's it. (#38 and #94)
Wanna know how many black themed titles are in the top 100? 0. None. Bupkiss.
Only a handful of titles in the top 100 contain any black performers at all.
And in case you were wondering, from the dozens and dozens of niches they cater to, the ones they have the most titles for are: Amateur, Teen, Lesbian, Black, Interracial. (that's including DVD and VOD, excluding compilations) so don't bother telling me that it's lack of choice hurting the sales because they have tons and tons of black and IR content.
It's a very similar story if you go to the current best sellers there. Yeah, there are a few more IR titles in there but boring ol vanilla white on white porn is still far and away a better seller than black or IR porn.
I'm not saying it's good or bad, that the most popular content is white on white. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. but it is the current state of the industry.
So where is your proof that there is demand for more black and IR content? If so many more people are wanting it, then why aren't people buying it? Where can I see evidence of this alleged demand manifest itself?
I do need to make one correction though. You didn't say that your porn bookstores failed, you just said that you were in the adult bookstore business so I just assumed that if they were successful that you'd still be doing it. So to set the record straight, did your bookstore business fail or not?
Edited by - murdock on 6/9/2015 11:20:33 AM

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:23AM

The biggest selling tape last year was the MiMi Faust sex tape. She is on the reality show Love and Hip Hop. The tape outsold Kim Kardashian, Pam Anderson and every celeb sex tape ever made and it is all black.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:25AM

cartercruise wrote:
Hi. Id like to chime in here since I seem to be a big point of discussion. I did not *wait* to shoot IR for the money. When I came into the industry, I had no intention of ever shooting IR because of the way I *believed* it was portrayed in porn. Although there is some negatively driven IR porn out there, I realized after a few months in the industry that it was not all like that (I am not a porn watcher, so I discovered this through working in the industry). When Blacked launched last year, I became particularly interested in them. I spoke to Greg last summer and told him I wanted to do my first interracial for the site. Around the same time, my career took off, and I was booked several months in advance. In fact, I was one of (if not THE) most shot girl in the biz last year. I can tell people what I want to do, but it comes down to the company to schedule it with my agent in time before I'm booked up. I was in no rush to do IR. I wasn't banging down doors to do it, but I had made it clear that I was ready and willing to do so. A couple companies approached me with projects which I was down for, but due to scheduling, etc they never came to fruition. At the end of 2014 it was decided that I would shoot my first IR after AVN, which I later found out would be a showcase. I did not ask for a showcase, bht was offered it, much to my surprise. We began shooting in early 2015 and it took months to shoot, finishing in May.
I'm really annoyed that I have to detail this whole process, but as it seems to be a huge point of contingency for many of you, here it is. Feel free to share with other haters on the interwebz. I literally could care less what color someone's skin is. The only reason I ever found IR objectionable is because of the type of stuff I'm reading on this forum which makes interracial a WAY bigger deal than it should be. I was most turned off by the people who would email me horrible things because I hadn't shot IR when I had every intention of doing so. Call me crazy, but proving I'm not racist to people who make countless anonymous twitter accounts to berate me for not doing IR isn't really my steez. I don't negotiate with terrorists, nor rush into action in order to prove a bully wrong.
As for all the people who say I should have done IR before everything else I did... Relax. My first DP was unplanned, and was only my second anal scene in the business. It was scheduled for a BBG and we ended up doing a DP. The same thing happened with DV and I haven't done DA. I did ONE gang bang a few months before my first IR.
Look, I'm from the south, so I get that racism still exists. It's awful and I've witnessed it first hand. However, *I* was not raised that way, and personally have a huge issue with any type of hate group, ESPECIALLY racism. At the same time, I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. Racism is ignorant and stupid, of which I am neither. It makes NO logical sense that one race is better than another, and I am always logical.
Mostly, I believe in basic human respect. Regardless of age, gender, race, what the fuck ever, every person deserves to be treated with kindness and love. Individuals can lose this right, but not groups. This goes for blacks and whites, girls who shoot IR and girls who don't shoot IR. If a performer is blatantly racist, sure, go at if, but if she hasn't explicitly stated that, let's all do ourselves a favor and give her the benefit of the doubt, because the negative energy and hate isn't going to encourage anyone to jump into IR.
Now, just shut up and enjoy my showcase because it's really good. The scene with Rob Piper and Riley Reid is my favorite and they are both very sexy.
xoxo, Carter
Click to expand

Thank you for stopping by and taking the time to give us your perspective Carter.

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 12:00PM

^ Agreed. Always nice to get the insider perspective.

Yeah, and you've also made such absurd claims as:

Do you have any evidence to support these claims, or are you just going to dodge the question yet again? (If you're just going to keep dodging the question, just say so and I'll save us both some time and stop asking)

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 12:17PM

^ I will post the information when you admit you just want some attention.

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 12:34PM

^ What in the world does that have to do with anything?
Either you can substantiate your outlandish claims or you can't. Which is it?
Edit: Not only was the Mimi tape not the best selling video last year, it wasn't even the best selling celebrity sex tape last year.
Once again from Adult Empire here is the best selling "Home Made" movies of all time (the genre that has all of the celebrity sex tapes)
#1 Pam & Tommy Lee: Hardcore
#2 Kim Kardashian, Superstar
#3 Farrah Superstar: Backdoor Teen Mom
#4 Naughty Amateurs #2
#5 Kendra Exposed
#6 Dare Dorm
#7 Naughty Amateurs 4-Pack
#8 Shauna Sand Exposed
#9 Farrah 2: Backdoor and More
#10 Naughty Amateurs
#11 Karissa Shannon Superstar
#12 Homegrown Video #621
#13 ATK Prengant Amateurs
#14 Homegrown Video #597
#15 Naught Amateurs #3
#16 Homegrown Video #657
#17 Mimi & Nikko: Scandal in Atlanta
Farrah 2: Backdoor & More was also released in 2014, so unless it inexplicably sold a boatload starting in 2015 in would be pretty tough for Mimi to have outsold it in 2014. And you claim about it outselling the Pam & Tommy Lee tape and the Kim K tape is laughable. Under that same category but refined to Current Bestsellers, the Mimi take comes in at #353 (The Kim K tape in that same ranking is #5 and Pam & Tommy Lee still well ahead at #76 despite having been released almost 2 decades ago)
Edited by - murdock on 6/9/2015 1:24:39 PM

[Link]

ghost88
Member

615 Posts
9/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 5:53PM

Some would say the act itself is more degrading than interracial. Hardcore anal gangbangs, getted urinated on, and the list goes on. Are these extreme acts not degrading as well? Some will say porn itself is degrading. Selling your body for money is considered degrading. This is why I don't think interracial will ever be considered a top genre as to how low it is viewed. No I don't think girls should get paid more to do IR. Paying girls more for IR is hurting the category. A girl is worth more when she is fresh and hasn't shot a bunch of scenes. Especially if those scenes are of the extreme nature. Girls who wait encourage other girls to do the same. Kota Skye is an example of girl waited for a big pay day, and burned out before that happened. Most girls who wait never end of doing it, they are out the business before it ever happens. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of girls doing IR from the start. They clearly aren't as valued as those who wait for their big pay day. I see so many girls on agencies ready to shoot IR but don't get any work. The second a dodger/non-IR girl crosses she is crowned the queen of IR, getting all the work, and getting paid a lot more money than those who will do it from the start. So what is the point? I just don't see one. Every girl should wait, seems to be more money for girls in the long run. The downside of that is IR would go out of business, but whatever.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 6:33PM

Agreed.

To the extent that is true (Anikka Albrite seems pretty valued to me), there are a variety of factors in play. A lot of these pornstars need a better agent and/or publicist. Some may be lackluster performers. Plus it's easy to not get noticed unless you're shooting IR for a major site or sites.

That is another generalization, but if you consider those cases I think you'll find that most of those pornstars were already big names to begin with. They were proven, accomplished performers with a fanbase. It's pointless to compare them to new pornstars.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 6:40:51 PM

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:31PM

Mimi Faust sextape breaks record

[Link]

rhodium
Member

A cracked polystyrene man
183 Posts
6/11

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:43PM

Haven't read much of the thread but this seems like the point to win the debate. However, you simply cannot convince those who are already incapable of any level of self-reflection.
But I wish you good luck.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:51PM

And the award for the most arrogant remark on the thread goes to...

[Link]

rhodium
Member

A cracked polystyrene man
183 Posts
6/11

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 7:53PM

^ I can top it.
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” - Mark Twain
As you were.

[Link]

Draxxx
Senior Member

3831 Posts
2/07

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:05PM

I just have to ask...Is there any part of you that sees/understands at all what we've been talking about with the whole fetish aspect as it pretains to morals, equality and such? Two people have repeatedly explained why you can't have the equality/morality you want and your defense/comeback is not much more than "It doesn't have to be that way". Most of what you're saying doesn't seem to be any sort of real answers or practical sulutions but just you kinda saying "I don't like it and it shouldn't be that way..."

[Link]

Draxxx
Senior Member

3831 Posts
2/07

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:15PM

cartercruise wrote:
I'm really annoyed that I have to detail this whole process, but as it seems to be a huge point of contingency for many of you, here it is. Feel free to share with other haters on the interwebz. I literally could care less what color someone's skin is. The only reason I ever found IR objectionable is because of the type of stuff I'm reading on this forum which makes interracial a WAY bigger deal than it should be. I was most turned off by the people who would email me horrible things because I hadn't shot IR when I had every intention of doing so. Call me crazy, but proving I'm not racist to people who make countless anonymous twitter accounts to berate me for not doing IR isn't really my steez. I don't negotiate with terrorists, nor rush into action in order to prove a bully wrong.
xoxo, Carter
Click to expand

Thank you for taking the time to clear things up that really shouldn't be an issue to begin with. The funny thing is that some of the people here are probably annoyed that you came here with your side and now that it came from you they can't take random quotes and videoes to make try to make the arguement that you're some pornstar with an evil IR agenda. Another reason why I always try to see things from the pornstar's side...because of the nonsense you guys have to put up with from people who are supposedly fans.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 10:45PM

murdock is one person, not two, and how the fetishization of black men and interracial sex pertains to morality hasn't really been discussed.
I've already said to murdock that I disagree with him on how fetishization pertains to equality. Do you demand that I accept murdock's argument because you happen to agree with it?
EDIT: I think that I would be satisfied with a lesser equality within the industry than what murdock envisions, that is what I meant when in response to him I wrote: "I think that the equality I want to see take place and the equality you (I think) want to see take place is not the same thing." murdock's vision can only be realized in a post-racial society. I'm setting my sights a bit lower.
The only practical solution I can see is for pornstars to opt out of the game. As you know, that is what I have been saying for sometime now on this thread. Krissy Lynn, herself a veteran pornstar, called for pornstars to take a stand. Multiple other pornstars over the years, both on this forum, in written and video interviews, etc. have done the same. If more and more women in the industry refuse to cooperate with the industry's segregation of black males, that segregation will collapse.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 10:55:24 PM

[Link]

Draxxx
Senior Member

3831 Posts
2/07

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:08PM

misspornUSA wrote:
Draxxx wrote:
misspornUSA wrote:
^^As you said, we'll have to agree to disagree about what equality means and whether the fetishization of black men is the root of the problem.
Click to expand
I just have to ask...Is there any part of you that sees/understands at all what we've been talking about with the whole fetish aspect as it pretains to morals, equality and such? Two people have repeatedly explained why you can't have the equality/morality you want and your defense/comeback is not much more than "It doesn't have to be that way". Most of what you're saying doesn't seem to be any sort of real answers or practical sulutions but just you kinda saying "I don't like it and it shouldn't be that way..."
Click to expand
murdock is one person, not two, and how the fetishization of black men and interracial sex pertains to morality hasn't really been discussed.
Click to expand
Okay. I thought both Murdock and I explained our take on it at length, so I guess I have no idea what you want to hear or what it is you're asking.
Do you demand that I accept murdock's argument because you happen to agree with it?
Click to expand
No. I simply asked if any part of you see the point he tried making or if you're just dissmissing it outright. Even if you don't agree with someone it's possible to see or understand their point of view.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:15PM

^If the following is what you're referring to (the post in which you wrote at length about how the fetishization of black males and interracial sex pertains to morality), then I already responded to it on the previous page.

Draxxx wrote:
misspornUSA wrote:
In the post in which I am quoting now and and the one in which I quoted previously you explained why porn is segregated, not why that segregation is morally justifiable. It is the latter than I am asking you about.
Click to expand
Bcause it's a business that deals in genres, fetishes and fantasy as I've said repeatedly. Porn is a business where morals aren't the driving factor. There's a long list of immoral things happening in porn but you just choose to focus on this one part. The supply and demand nature of porn dictates it won't be moral like you'd expect from the real world. If porn always did what's morally right then lots what it offers goes away. Is it morally right to slap women? Is it morally right to show rape fantasies? Is it morally right to show women treated as pieces of meat? Is it morally right to depict incest? You want to pick and choose which morality they respect.
That's why I see it as "justifiable". Because of the audience the segregation is justifiable. Some black men have greatly benefitted from that segregation. Porn isn't a bar where they won't let black people in to be served. It's a business that calls for different people to serve different roles. Some of those roles serve a bigger part of the audience than others. That's why things will never be equal for everyone in porn.
You claim it's not all about morality for but it seems that's the only side you have any real interest in. The only business aspect you've mentioned is how waiting for a bigger payday is going to somehow ruin porn and when pressed "ruining" porn to you had something to do with you feeling the white male peformers were lacking and that somehow lead to white women wanting money was awful for black males.
Click to expand

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:19PM

^^No, I'm not dismissing him outright. I'm just calling for something less than what I believe he would like to see take place.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 9 2015 : 11:22PM

Maybe you wrote your response before I edited mine:

EDIT: I have to admit that I am surprised that you are inquiring about whether or not I am closed minded. You have been commenting on this thread since the beginning, and therefore know full well that my opinion about all of this has evolved from page 1 to page 12. Maybe my views on this matter haven't developed in a direction that you are able to respect, but they clearly have not stayed stagnant. I am not a dogmatist.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 11:45:02 PM

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murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 1:05AM

That's great and all, but that tape didn't break any sales records that I can find. It broke some pre-sale records which isn't exactly shocking compared to other sex-tapes since pre-sales didn't even exist when most of them were released.
Do you have any evidence to back up what you've previously claimed or are you going to revise your earlier statement to "pre-sales" and call it a day?

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:29AM

misspornUSA wrote:
murdock is one person, not two, and how the fetishization of black men and interracial sex pertains to morality hasn't really been discussed.
I've already said to murdock that I disagree with him on how fetishization pertains to equality. Do you demand that I accept murdock's argument because you happen to agree with it?
EDIT: I think that I would be satisfied with a lesser equality within the industry than what murdock envisions, that is what I meant when in response to him I wrote: "I think that the equality I want to see take place and the equality you (I think) want to see take place is not the same thing." murdock's vision can only be realized in a post-racial society. I'm setting my sights a bit lower.
The only practical solution I can see is for pornstars to opt out of the game. As you know, that is what I have been saying for sometime now on this thread. Krissy Lynn, herself a veteran pornstar, called for pornstars to take a stand. Multiple other pornstars over the years, both on this forum, in written and video interviews, etc. have done the same. If more and more women in the industry refuse to cooperate with the industry's segregation of black males, that segregation will collapse.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/9/2015 10:55:24 PM
Click to expand

Well to be clear what I described wasn't my vision. I was simply describing racial equality in porn. And yes, I agree it won't be realized until we're in a post-racial society. That was sort of the point in bringing that vision up, in that what you said you wanted (racial equality) isn't a practical goal today. Now you may very well have meant something else, but what you said was, you wanted equality, and there are no degrees of equality. Equality is an absolute. Things are either equal or they are not. When you ask for equality you are asking for a very specific thing.
Having said all that, I still disagree with you assertions. Segregation isn't rooted within the industry. It comes from outside of the industry. Traditional fetishized IR is a significant contributor to that. Traditional Fetishized IR is based on black and white people not being equal. It's based on black and white people not being treated the same. I think those to points are pretty much inarguable, but if you have a dissenting opinion, I'd love to hear a rebuttal. From what I can tell the popular black performers get a significant amount of their work doing IR scenes. That is the reason they are segregated in the first place. They aren't seen as male talent, they are seen as black male talent because the bulk of the scenes they do dictate them as such. How do you book an IR scene without hiring a black man? You don't. Congratulations, you've just segregated black men.
That's not to say that traditional IR is the only problem. It clearly isn't. And I don't focus on it to lay some guilt trip on you and make you feel bad for liking segregated porn. I point it out to make you aware that what you're wanting to fix is going to effect you in ways that you might not like. It holds true for people that just want to watch plane ol vanilla porn too, but I'm not sure there are many in this thread that fit that bill so that's why I don't bring it up much, but the same thing applies to them of course.
Now maybe there is other segregation going on outside of IR scenes, and you feel that black men aren't getting enough work outside of that niche. And I agree, but also disagree. I think they are clearly underutilized in racially neutral roles, and would like to see a more racially diverse cast in mainstream porn. However I also recognize that if we're going to allow racial segregation/discrimination over here (for IR porn) that we need to allow for racial segregation/discrimination over here (in some non-IR porn) because it is a) more fair and b) more profitable as I already demonstrated above with the top selling porn posts.
I really don't see what a bunch of actresses boycotting is going to change, other than hurt the industry as a whole. If the problem resides outside of the industry (and I think I've pretty clearly demonstrated that it does) then you aren't going to fix it within the industry. Actresses boycotting won't change the fact that a lot of consumers want IR porn. It won't change the fact that a lot of customers want white on white porn. The way I see it is the industry can either ignore what their customers want and shoehorn some political correctness into business that isn't ready for it, and cripple their sales, in order to make you feel better about watching a product that ironically won't be produced anymore because of what you want, or they can acknowledge what their consumers want, and deliver it to them without a bunch of self indulgent moral baggage.
The difference between porn and Hollywood is Hollywood risking much larger sums of money on these big films and they are scared to push the envelope with racially diverse casts when they know America is perfectly happy watching movies featuring Vanilla McWhiterson, while porn is making tons of racially diverse stuff (most fetishized, some not) and the movies featuring Vanilla McWhiterson are still making the most money. What that tells me is that the porn buying public still really cares about the skin color of their performers, and I don't see how boycotting starlets is going to change that.
From what I can tell though it appears that you think an exception should be made for IR porn but you haven't offered any justification for why that exception should exist.

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 3:45AM

^
It feels like you're not willing to accept that you two have different meanings for equality that are both valid.
To you, equality means that everyone is treated the same, regardless of race.
To misspornUSA, equality can also mean that everyone is given the same opportunities, regardless of race.
I feel like this is going so sound weird to say, but treating everyone equally doesn't have to mean treating everyone the same because, well, people are different.
Edit: And when misspornUSA talks about not playing the game, I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about boycotting the industry, just choosing to do IR at the start of their careers. Which is what Krissy Lynn was talking about.
Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 6/10/2015 3:48:19 AM

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murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 5:02AM

I'll accept whatever definition she wants to put forth, but thus far all she's done is say "no, that's not what I mean" and when questioned further about it, offer some ambigiuosly meaningless explination of what she wants. I can't agree or disagree with what she's saying if she can't articulate it in a meaningful way.

But she clearly doesn't want everyone to have the same opportunities, regardless of race. Supporting traditional BM/WF IR is in direct opposition to that.

No, I totally get what you're saying because this is an extremely complicated issue, which is why there isn't any simple fix for things. As I've said time and time again, the state of the industry is a direct result of the state of society. You're not going to "fix" the former until the latter is fixed.

Changing when someone chooses to shoot IR doesn't fix anything, especially with regards to some set of morals that misspornUSA insists on referencing. It seems like a rather silly argument to start with. It seems highly unlikely that the performer's decision making changed dramatically from the start of their career to the time they decided to do interracial. If they weren't doing it for racist reasons, they're still probably a racist when they took the big hunk of money to do it. (but of course deciding to take that big payday actually offers more opportunities for black men in porn, not less) And if they weren't holding out for racist reasons, then they were almost certainly doing it for personal reasons, or career reasons. Both of those seem like pretty valid reasons for a person to choose not to fuck someone else.
Last I checked in this country, every single human being was granted the right to choose who they don't fuck.
Last I checked in this country, not one single human being has ever been granted the right to choose who they do fuck.
I don't have the right to fuck anybody. Neither do you. Neither does misspornUSA. However, I can decline to fuck any and everyone. So can you, so can misspornUSA. That's a pretty fundamental part of what most 1st world society is built upon. And that is one of the problems with just going along with what Krissy Lynn has to say. It's a great idea on the surface (Let black men have equal opportunity) but it falls apart when you actually look at how it will work out. The reason that black men don't have the same opportunity is because of demand from the porn buying world. And the logic doesn't even hold up on the most basic levels. There is a finite amount of porn being shot anyway. If there is demand for an interracial scene then an interracial scene is shot. That means a black man got his opportunity. The misspornUSA theory (as you've described it) presumes that if more actresses are available for longer parts of their career to shoot IR, that more IR will be shot, and nothing I know about business supports that. If there is evidence to support the porn buying public is willing to pay for more IR content to be produced, I certainly haven't seen it.
And that whole premise is defeated by the most obvious loophole in the world anyway.
Step 1: Start Porn career. List available to shoot IR
Step 2: Don't shoot IR for a year
Step 3: Profit$

[Link]

Curtom
Deactivated User

293 Posts
8/14

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 10:03AM

What the hell are you saying!!! So you're telling me that if more pornstars were available to shoot IR, that there wouldn't be more opportunity to shoot IR? Huh? Do you see what is wrong with such faulty logic? LCF tried to reason the same argument on another treat and I still don't see what the hell you guys are trying to say.

[Link]

murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 10:41AM

I'm saying that production of IR is dictated right now by demand for IR, not availability of IR performers to shoot. You could add one woman to the "available to shoot IR" list or a million, and it isn't going to create more scenes shot. Even if Alexis Texas said she wanted to shoot an IR showcase today, that wouldn't mean more opportunities for black performers. It just means one less IR movie is going to made without Alexis Texas, somewhere along the line, but it'll still be the same number of IR shoots, which means the same number of opportunities for black males. It's a wash. Conversely, as noble as Krissy Lynn may think she's being, nobody got any extra IR work because she decided to shoot IR from day one.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that Krissy did it from day one. She should be applauded for doing what she believes is the right thing. I also think it would be great if everybody else did too, but all that is going to change is the variety of IR porn, not the necessarily the quantity.
It's also entirely possible that if a wider variety of female talent was doing IR, there would be more "first time" shoots, and bigger female names attached which could drive the price of IR up and the demand down and create fewer opportunities for black men in porn. So not only would this fantasy of everyone shooting IR from day one not necessarily work, it has the very real potential to make things worse.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 12:15PM

Things can be more equal or less equal. I'm a woman. We don't have full equality, but we have more equality than we did in the '50s, '60s, etc. Blacks don't have full equality in society at large, but they have more equality than they did before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other pieces of civil rights legislation. My partner is a lesbian. The GLBTQI community does not have full equality, but we have more equality than we did in any preceding decade. I can continue to list examples, but you probably understand what I mean.

murdock wrote:
Having said all that, I still disagree with you assertions. Segregation isn't rooted within the industry. It comes from outside of the industry. Traditional fetishized IR is a significant contributor to that. Traditional Fetishized IR is based on black and white people not being equal. It's based on black and white people not being treated the same. I think those to points are pretty much inarguable, but if you have a dissenting opinion, I'd love to hear a rebuttal. From what I can tell the popular black performers get a significant amount of their work doing IR scenes. That is the reason they are segregated in the first place. They aren't seen as male talent, they are seen as black male talent because the bulk of the scenes they do dictate them as such. How do you book an IR scene without hiring a black man? You don't. Congratulations, you've just segregated black men.
Click to expand

Is "Traditional Fetishized IR" a barrier to the absolute equality that you speak of? Yes. But I am not calling for absolute equality, which we both agree will only come about in a post-racial society.

If you're suggesting that the production of IR fetish would decline if black men began to appear more often outside IR fetish scenes, I'm aware of that possibility and have already made my peace with it. I'd miss the production values of mainstream porn, but the more extreme stuff is on Clips 4 Sale anyway.

Do we know how movies which feature 1 or 2 scenes in which black men are utilized outside of the IR genre would do on the market? We'd have to take into account a whole host of of other factors as well. If we're talking about dvds, who's on the cover and how much do movies with that pornstar on the cover usually sell? Who directed and how many units does that director usually sell? What kind of sex is in the movie? Etc., etc., etc. The questions would be similar for downloads.
Do blowbangs or gangbangs in which a couple or a few black men participate sell less or receive less (legal) downloads than blowbangs or gangbangs that are entirely non-black? If so, has causality been established? Again, we'd have to account for a variety of other factors as well.
I think it is strange that a pornstar will chide fans for making an issue out of IR, and then insist that their first IR consist of an entire showcase. What if their first IR were a black guy during a gangbang? That would be the very definition of not making a big deal out of first IR.

What boycott are you talking about? I suggested that pornstars list availability for IR from the beginning, not that they boycott anything.

I want porn to change to make me feel better? Who knew that the segregation of black men in the industry hurt my feelings?
We don't know that sales would be hurt. "Do we know how movies which feature 1 or 2 scenes in which black men are utilized outside of the IR genre would do on the market? We'd have to take into account a whole host of of other factors as well. If we're talking about dvds, who's on the cover and how much to movies with that pornstar on the cover usually sell? Who directed and how much does that director usually sell? What kind of sex is in the movie? Etc. The questions would be similar for downloads.
"Do blowbangs or gangbangs in which a couple or a few black men participate sell less or receive less (legal) downloads than blowbangs or gangbangs that are entirely non-black? If so, has causality been established? Again, we'd have to account for a variety of other factors before making a determination."

Responded to above.

That is a much larger topic. Were we to discuss fetishization in porn, I would start by exploring the fetishization of women. The fetishization of black men pales in comparison. You wrote earlier that "assism, or titism" doesn't exist. Well, sexism exists, but these are issues for another thread that I probably wouldn't participate in anyway, lol.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:15:42 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 12:20PM

For the record, I haven't argued and will never argue that any woman in the industry should be forced to shoot with a black man. Were the industry to be desegregated women who place all black men on their "no list" would naturally get a lot less work than they do now, but they wouldn't be "forced" to do anything.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:22:12 PM

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murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 1:04PM

I'm sorry but you're mistaken. You aren't describing degrees of equality. Equality doesn't have degrees, it is an absolute. What you are describing is varying degrees of inequality. That was my point before is you aren't really looking for equality, you're just looking for a different degree of inequality. That's fine, but call it what it is.

Right, we've already established that your goal is some different level of inequality. Am I going to have to keep guessing and have you say "Nope, that's not it." or will you ever just come out and say what you're end goal is?

Well yes, but the converse is also true. By supporting the IR fetish you're keeping black men out of mainstream roles. It goes both ways.

Those are all fair questions, but the ultimate answer is still "white on white" porn is the best selling porn over time. You can break it down however you want but that is still the ultimate conclusion. I'm sure if you break it down far enough you'll find some exceptions where IR outsells Vanilla porn. but it doesn't matter because we aren't after the details, what matters is the ultimate conclusion.
If I do a scientific study and and determine that a a pedestrian hit by a bus is less likely to survive a collision compared to a pedestrian hit by a bicycle. It doesn't matter if you find a single instance where the bicycle victim died and the bus victim survived. It doesn't matter if the bus was white or green, diesel or hybrid, driven by a man or a woman... the ultimate conclusion is still that buses are more deadly than bicycles, so breaking it down further serves no purpose other than to obfuscate the results. (not that that's what you were attempting to do or anything)

Um that came out of nowhere. But why is that hard to understand? If the pornstar is chiding fans for badgering her about performing (or not performing) IR that strikes me as a reasonable thing to do regardless of what one's stance on IR happens to be, and insisting on a showcase is a business decision.
i.e. "It's none of your damn business if and when I choose to do a scene with a black man. It is my business though in the most literal sense of the word and I will act accordingly."

My mistake. Once again since you hadn't actually said what it was you wanted. After finding the Krissy Lynn tweets I have since addressed that in a subsequent post.

Well you don't seem interested in equality in the industry... just some lip service to minimizing inequality (even though you can't actually bring yourself to call it what it is) as long as it doesn't effect your own preferences in porn. Funny how many people on here that seem to be on some sort of social crusade that just so happens to line up with their porn preferences. What else am I supposed to conclude?

I wrote that? That doesn't sound like something I would write, but if you say so. Anyway, you have asked for moral justification from others, so I'm asking it of you. How do you morally justify your IR fetish, when it is a contributing factor to the inequality of black men in porn?

[Link]

House117
Member

27 Posts
4/14

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 1:32PM

^^^^ Well said miss Cruise.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:01PM

^^I've already described what I would like to see take place. Now you want to argue over semantics. I wrote that things can be more equal or less equal, a concept which you regard as nonsensical. However, I am in good company.
Although relationships between the sexes are more equal today than in the past, many—though assuredly not all—women and men today may have internalized divergent sexual scripts or messages.
Marriages, Families, and Relationships: Making Choices in a Diverse Society
Mary Ann Lamanna, Agnes Riedmann, Susan Stewart
Cengage Learning, 2014.
The father has the main voice in disputes on starting school, discipline, and other matters, but things are more equal today.
Urban Life in Contemporary China
Martin King Whyte, William L. Parish
University of Chicago Press, 1985.
In sum, as measured by a wide variety of indicators Japanese society is more equal today than it was twenty-five years ago.
Education and Training in Japan, Volume 1
Thomas P. Rohlen, Christopher Bjork
Taylor & Francis, 1998.
Let us end this silly diversion over semantics.
The end goal of a post-racial society will obviously come from outside of porn, not within it.
I already responded to your "white on white" sales comment. The porn I'm talking about needs to actually be made before we can compare sales. You are comparing sales of "white on white" to IR fetish porn.
My comments about pornstars did not "come out of nowhere." I wrote about gangbangs and blowbangs, then continued writing about gangbangs and blowbangs. My point was that if pornstars do not treat "first IR" like a big deal, which most undeniably do, it would no longer be as big a deal as it is now.
I already wrote that I've made peace with how my porn preferences might be affected.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 2:08:26 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:06PM

misspornUSA wrote:
misspornusa wrote:
That is a much larger topic. Were we to discuss fetishization in porn, I would start by exploring the fetishization of women. The fetishization of black men pales in comparison. You wrote earlier that "assism, or titism" doesn't exist. Well, sexism exists, but these are issues for another thread that I probably wouldn't participate in anyway, lol.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 12:15:42 PM
Click to expand
murdock wrote:
I wrote that? That doesn't sound like something I would write, but if you say so.
Click to expand
Huh?
murdock wrote:
misspornUSA wrote:
You have a right to watch whatever kind of porn you'd like of course, but whether's we're talking about big dicks, big breasts, big asses or phat white asses specifically, most porn viewers are interested in the physical characteristics of the people whom they are watching.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/26/2015 6:42:32 PM
Click to expand
Completely agree. And if there were such a thing as assism, or titism, or bigdickism, I'd make the same claims about those as well. Just because your racial predilections manifest in a sexual way, that doesn't change what they are.
Click to expand
Not that that's settled.
murdock wrote:
Anyway, you have asked for moral justification from others, so I'm asking it of you. How do you morally justify your IR fetish, when it is a contributing factor to the inequality of black men in porn?
Click to expand
I already responded to your question. If that response was not to your liking, I apologize, but the question of fetishism is much larger than IR and I can't just skip to chapter 75 in discussing it.
IR fetish porn may be a barrier to your "absolute equality" but not to the level of equality for which I am arguing. Absolute equality will not be born from within the industry, but from outside of it. I am under no illusions to the contrary.
If all consumers stopped buying IR fetish porn tomorrow that would bring black, male pornstars to ruin. It would not help them in any way.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 2:10:30 PM
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 2:18:00 PM
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 3:40:43 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 2:21PM

Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/10/2015 3:40:33 PM

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Draxxx
Senior Member

3831 Posts
2/07

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 9:46PM

I honestly don't remember details from the beginning. If there has been any evolution on your part it might not be as apparent as you might think. I believe you started out against waiting for a bigger pay day and from what I can your position stays the same. So what's different in your thinking from then until now?

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 9:58PM

^I was neither for or against it, but in an unsure middle (ie. It's probably not a good thing, but then again...). You needn't try to remember. It's right there on the first page. I certainly wasn't going so far as to call for the desegregation of porn, or for pornstars to opt out of playing the IR game, etc.

[Link]

whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 12:15AM

murdock wrote:
whatsatelephonebill wrote:
^
It feels like you're not willing to accept that you two have different meanings for equality that are both valid.
Click to expand
I'll accept whatever definition she wants to put forth, but thus far all she's done is say "no, that's not what I mean" and when questioned further about it, offer some ambigiuosly meaningless explination of what she wants. I can't agree or disagree with what she's saying if she can't articulate it in a meaningful way.
To you, equality means that everyone is treated the same, regardless of race.
To misspornUSA, equality can also mean that everyone is given the same opportunities, regardless of race.
Click to expand
But she clearly doesn't want everyone to have the same opportunities, regardless of race. Supporting traditional BM/WF IR is in direct opposition to that.
I feel like this is going so sound weird to say, but treating everyone equally doesn't have to mean treating everyone the same because, well, people are different.
Click to expand
No, I totally get what you're saying because this is an extremely complicated issue, which is why there isn't any simple fix for things. As I've said time and time again, the state of the industry is a direct result of the state of society. You're not going to "fix" the former until the latter is fixed.
Edit: And when misspornUSA talks about not playing the game, I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about boycotting the industry, just choosing to do IR at the start of their careers. Which is what Krissy Lynn was talking about.
Click to expand
Changing when someone chooses to shoot IR doesn't fix anything, especially with regards to some set of morals that misspornUSA insists on referencing. It seems like a rather silly argument to start with. It seems highly unlikely that the performer's decision making changed dramatically from the start of their career to the time they decided to do interracial. If they weren't doing it for racist reasons, they're still probably a racist when they took the big hunk of money to do it. (but of course deciding to take that big payday actually offers more opportunities for black men in porn, not less) And if they weren't holding out for racist reasons, then they were almost certainly doing it for personal reasons, or career reasons. Both of those seem like pretty valid reasons for a person to choose not to fuck someone else.
Last I checked in this country, every single human being was granted the right to choose who they don't fuck.
Last I checked in this country, not one single human being has ever been granted the right to choose who they do fuck.
I don't have the right to fuck anybody. Neither do you. Neither does misspornUSA. However, I can decline to fuck any and everyone. So can you, so can misspornUSA. That's a pretty fundamental part of what most 1st world society is built upon. And that is one of the problems with just going along with what Krissy Lynn has to say. It's a great idea on the surface (Let black men have equal opportunity) but it falls apart when you actually look at how it will work out. The reason that black men don't have the same opportunity is because of demand from the porn buying world. And the logic doesn't even hold up on the most basic levels. There is a finite amount of porn being shot anyway. If there is demand for an interracial scene then an interracial scene is shot. That means a black man got his opportunity. The misspornUSA theory (as you've described it) presumes that if more actresses are available for longer parts of their career to shoot IR, that more IR will be shot, and nothing I know about business supports that. If there is evidence to support the porn buying public is willing to pay for more IR content to be produced, I certainly haven't seen it.
And that whole premise is defeated by the most obvious loophole in the world anyway.
Step 1: Start Porn career. List available to shoot IR
Step 2: Don't shoot IR for a year
Step 3: Profit$
Click to expand

First off, let me say that I do understand where you're coming from. That there won't be "true equality" until every single role is racially neutral (i.e. any role can be played by a person of any race). Which is why you don't see "traditional IR" as a part of this, because those are roles that you would say a person that isn't black cannot play. I disagree, but I understand where you're coming from. Ignoring the fact that I don't think that's something that's really achievable in the foreseeable future, I honestly don't think it needs to happen for there to be equality. You can (and people do) shoot the non-IR equivalent to "traditional IR" scenes, where it's all about the white guy's huge dick, and maybe even adding that this is something she shouldn't be doing because she's a good girl. It's just that because it's not black-on-white, it's generally not seen as a fetish scene, but as just another mainstream one. To me, both of those types of scenes existing would be a sign of equality. Any person of any race can shoot that type of scene, but that doesn't mean that the market has to react to each of the scenes the same way.
And as far as whether or not the market would buy IR porn if more IR porn was produced, I really don't think you can look at something like one retailer's all time sales charts and determine whether or not that's the case. If anything, what you would want to be looking at is AVN's top selling charts, which takes a cross section of multiple retailers and would give you a clearer picture of what the public is buying as a whole right now (which would be more important in terms of whether you're going to put something out for them to buy right now) as opposed to what they've bought over the past 5-10 years. Even then, it wouldn't necessarily give you a full idea of what the market will buy, only what the market has bought, which isn't really the same thing. As an example of why I think that way, I don't doubt that Adult Empire's all time sales list wouldn't have looked that much different at the beginning of last year, before Blacked came on to the scene. You would still be able to make the same arguments about how the market reacts to IR porn then. But Blacked is here now, and as far as anyone can tell is doing very well in terms of sales of DVDs, and probably in terms of memberships to their website as well (at the very least, they've done well enough to add an extra update every 2 weeks to their existing schedule). So the market will buy "more" IR content (I don't feel like Blacked has replaced any of the IR releases that were occurring in the year or two leading up to the site's launch), if it's presented to them in a way that they like.
And as a point, agents don't list girls as available to for things they're unable to shoot, because producers will get pissed at them if they call looking to book a girl that says she's available for X, and are then told that no, she isn't. Do it enough times, and a producer will either stop calling about that girl because she can't be trusted to be available, or go even further and stop calling you about any of your girls in general because they can't trust that they're available for what you say they are. So that won't work.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:12AM

^I will leave it to you to further discuss this issue with murdock should he return. He and I have repeated ourselves more than enough times to each other after already having agreed to disagree.

Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/11/2015 1:24:19 AM

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matheuskramer
Member

66 Posts
6/09

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:30AM

Blacked is the best thing in porn those days and it is IR. They sell a lot and are 100% successful. By the way, Lansky is a genius and not only have the best quality but the best performers. The idea that IR do not sell is insane.

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Mass Facialties
Deactivated User

"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie
9308 Posts
9/13

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:50AM

Yeah, you and him (murdock) have been like NASCAR drivers in this thread-just goin' around in circles. I also noticed how Carter Cruise's long, explanatory post in response to this thread was essentially glossed over by everyone here, proving that pornstars are wasting their time when they try to explain their career decisions to the "trolls" and "haters" that berate them online; these people, masked by anonymity, will believe what they want to and will never be swayed.

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:57AM

^
Part of that is because most of the people still posting in this thread are reasonable people that never actually "berated" her in the first place, and a bigger part of that is because most of the berating ended up going to the Blacked.com thread, where she posted the exact same message.
And then a tiny part of it is because she was the last post on the page, which probably means a bunch of people just flat out missed it after the new page was started.

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Mass Facialties
Deactivated User

"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie
9308 Posts
9/13

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 2:13AM

^
The people I'm referring to as "trolls" and "haters" are those you see on the BLACKED thread, not to mention all those she's encountered on her Twitter, etc. To be clear, I'm not calling the "regulars" of this thread, like misspornUSA and murdock, trolls and haters.

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Interracial4Life
Deactivated User

329 Posts
3/15

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 6:24AM

I think Murdock is wrong on IR doesn't sell, if you go to X-Rent sites on the Top 100 DVD Rated, Sale and Rental most on the Top 20 are mostly IR movies on there so yes IR does sell big. As for Blacked.com there sell more on there DVD too.

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Draxxx
Senior Member

3831 Posts
2/07

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 9:06AM

It's exactly why pornstars should do whatever they think is best for themselves and not spend too much time trying to please fans. So many fans have their own sets of rules and standards in their head on what and when a girl should do whatever like it's some sort of written law and have convinced themselves they know what's best for the girl. But in the end it's just the fan wanting to see what they want and a whole lot of rationalizing in their head why the girl needs to do what they want from them. So when a girl does set the record straight the "fan" is actually annoyed that the girl is going against what they thought and in most cases that fan doesn't believe the girl anyway. That's why you see little response to Carter's eplaination when we should be seeing a bunch "Gee, thanks for setting the record straight".

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 11:30AM

^Perhaps we should distinguish between trolls and fans?

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Curtom
Deactivated User

293 Posts
8/14

Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 1:41PM

murdock wrote:
^ What in the world does that have to do with anything?
Either you can substantiate your outlandish claims or you can't. Which is it?
Edit: Not only was the Mimi tape not the best selling video last year, it wasn't even the best selling celebrity sex tape last year.
Once again from Adult Empire here is the best selling "Home Made" movies of all time (the genre that has all of the celebrity sex tapes)
#1 Pam & Tommy Lee: Hardcore
#2 Kim Kardashian, Superstar
#3 Farrah Superstar: Backdoor Teen Mom
#4 Naughty Amateurs #2
#5 Kendra Exposed
#6 Dare Dorm
#7 Naughty Amateurs 4-Pack
#8 Shauna Sand Exposed
#9 Farrah 2: Backdoor and More
#10 Naughty Amateurs
#11 Karissa Shannon Superstar
#12 Homegrown Video #621
#13 ATK Prengant Amateurs
#14 Homegrown Video #597
#15 Naught Amateurs #3
#16 Homegrown Video #657
#17 Mimi & Nikko: Scandal in Atlanta
Farrah 2: Backdoor & More was also released in 2014, so unless it inexplicably sold a boatload starting in 2015 in would be pretty tough for Mimi to have outsold it in 2014. And you claim about it outselling the Pam & Tommy Lee tape and the Kim K tape is laughable. Under that same category but refined to Current Bestsellers, the Mimi take comes in at #353 (The Kim K tape in that same ranking is #5 and Pam & Tommy Lee still well ahead at #76 despite having been released almost 2 decades ago)
Edited by - murdock on 6/9/2015 1:24:39 PM
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Pornhub Data 2014
From 9:00: Vivid's Love and Hip Hop is 4th highest viewed
From 11:44: 'Ebony' porn is in the top five most viewed porn for both men and women.
Edited by - Curtom on 6/11/2015 1:57:31 PM

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