Not quite. Before I came to this site I didn't know this practice existed and didn't care. Now that I know it does I still don't care. But that's me. For the general public I think they're better off not knowing the behind the scenes stuff like this. Clearly, it bothers some people and perhaps makes them look at some performers in a different light and ruin the entertainment. So yeah, I think fans shouldn't know or need to know about pay practices of porn.
I provided a link to a Poll see for yourself Remy has one vote Jade and Anikka aren't even mentioned , even Riley Reid has only one vote , even Stoya Anyway asking for firsts on Blacked or anywhere else changes the high demand for those who don't how exactly? What I meant is that we should support those who do from the beginning by requesting them Loik at that on a marketing point of view , if you are a starlet at your beginning and you do IR immediately then you nitice nobody request you but instead they askede for those who didn't or even those who will never do it wouldn't you think you were wrong? If don't do IR and notice that people keep requesting you wouldn't you continue? that's the point , we should support those who do it , i actually do that keeping requesting them especially when they are great such as Abbey Rain , Alice Green, Aria Alexander , Bianca Breeze as I did for Jenna Ivory and others . But hey , let's forget those retread let's keep in HIGH DEMAND those who don't so that we make sure they will get a shitload of money for that.and leave alone those who did IR from the very beginning, let's raise the prices for firsts .
We're never going to see eye to eye on this because we're looking at it from two different perspectives. I see it all as a business and business decisions. Most people in porn are making decisions based on how it will profit them. It's a business based on fetishes and fantasy and some of those fantanties aren't PC. In almost any other business I'd totally agree with you that if they were doing these practices it would be totally wrong but I see porn as a unique business where those rules don't always apply. Stereotypes, race, gender, size looks, etc., have all been fetishsized and now has value of varying degrees. The industry is also made up of independant contractors who bargain to make their own deals. As long as all these things are in place things in porn will never be seen as some as "fair" or "right". So being a black woman probably never be on equal footing with her white counterpart. Black men's size will be more important than a white guys. There will be fewer black males in the business. Prettier women will probably make more and no have to try as hard. And some white women will be able to charge more for being with a black male. You're looking at things from a more moral perspective. And as I said, in almost any other instance/profession I'd agree with your stance. But since porn isn't your typical 9 to 5 business where everyone is supposed to be treated equally and certain rules, standards and regulations apply, porn needs to looked at in a different light.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 19 2015 : 11:04AM
^I do view the problem through a moral lens, sure, but the topic is equally important to me as a consumer. Most of the American porn I watch is IR. When Kevin Moore wrote "Now there is a new issue", he was talking about business, not ethics.
i agree lcf. just another reason i dont obsess over girls who dont do it. honestly, this whole "first ir" thing wouldn't be a thing if they didnt get so much attention for NOT doing it.
^ as do I. Anyway trying again to put this whole thing into perspective , think of yourself in a situation similar to this below: One of my absolute favourite pornstars is Ana Foxxx , not just as a black one, but overall. Now Would I fuck her for free? HELL YES! I'd consume myself over her. Were I a performer would I fuck her for Free? HELL NO! Were I a performer and knowing I could charge more for an IR scene would I ask my usual fares? again HELL NO! As a professional I have a value and I must maintain that value , anything I would do that drops down that value must be avoided If I value myself less than I'm actually worth I'd have troubles to maintain my fares. So no I wouldn't fuck my own GF for free on screen and was she black and this was worth more money I'd ask for it. Edited by - LCF on 5/19/2015 2:57:17 PM
Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital 455 Posts 1/04
Posted - May 21 2015 : 8:08AM
I'm seeing more and more Dillion Harper scenes so she still seems pretty popular to me?
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 10:13AM
+2 Porn is the absolute last place where you should try to have political correctness, it's absurd, it runs counter to the nature of what is pornographic. And yet these people will never give up as they're already succeeding in enforcing it on more popular artforms (tv/movies/videogames). ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 5/21/2015 10:14:38 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 12:03PM
Again, what Kevin Moore was writing about are the various barriers to getting work for Lex. Lex himself has noted that one of these barriers is race, and pointed out that if he wasn't black he would get more work. It really should go without saying that I don't watch Lex's scenes out of some sort of a moral impulse and that my desire to see he and other black men get more work in the industry isn't just about civil rights and race relations. That this is an issue in which my personal system of ethics and my wants a porn consumer happen to overlap doesn't mean that the IR question is entirely or even primarily about morality for me. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 12:06:20 PM
You know what I meant. I'm asking why of we all wabt to see IR and it's so popular why is it still treated like the worst thing a mainstream pornstar can do? What are you talking about? I didn't call IR porn racist. There are pornstars(that I'm sure you would defend)that have called IR porn racist but not me.
Yes. Porn is the last place you expect people to be more accepting and inclusive, especially considering how people in the porn are treated by those outside of it. You must hate that Jonnie Storm is black now?
^ Actually I do, the same way I'd hate a white Luke Cage not to mention a white Ororo "Storm" Munroe, they're established characters should stay as they are. Fury is another whole thing there are two established Fury the canonical one who is white and the Ultimate one who is black and modeled after Samuel Jackson it was only natural for them to choose the second one , I mean how many actors are at the same level as Jackson and equally resemblant to the comic character?
^See I disagree with that. If being white or black isn't essential to the character's origin then I don't think it matters. Storm and Black Panther are both from Africa and that'so important to who they are as characters but Jonnie Storm could be black, white or anything else.
^ we're digressing ,anyway I said Luke Cage not Black Panther , Johnny Storm , much like Peter Parker or Logan or Falcon or Steve Rogers are all Iconic characters that's why they should stay as they are. Particularly Luke Cage with his white wife and their mixed daughter BTW if they change the ethnic background of Storm or T'challa obviously they could also change their origins Wakanda could even be a country bordering Latveria for that matter , or Storm could be the blond secret daughter of Tarzan , still from Africa but not Black or even the incarnation of an Indian goddess , there's plenty of thunder gods in human culture I wouldn't accept any of this.
Look at the dogfart or mimefreak threads, there are plenty of requests for girls that do ir. And again blacked is a site that has featured mostly girls that have done first ir. It's not a surprise when they ask who you want to see it's mostly girls that have not done it yet, so that poll proves nothing.
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 4:20PM
It's not we all, some of us couldn't give a shit about the color of a porndick. It's also not the worst thing, doing a black dick typically either sits right next to doing a white dick or a bit further on the pornscale, alongside anal(and both white&black dicks are dirtier than japanese dicks in jav). The scale goes a lot further than that. And the answer is the same as before, it is precisely because somewhere in these people's minds IR is a rare/forbidden/taboo thing that they care about seeing it so much. I'd wager that more than 99% of US IR fetishists care about it due to racial hangups rather than any appreciation for some visual contrast of black/white skin.That wasn't specifically directed at you, but it is the general sentiment of a few posters on this thread that IR being seen as a porn category/type and commercialized the same as any other porn type (including teasing the fans for a "first") is racist or at least condemnable. And while on a technical sense I'd say they're right insofar as caring about IR as its own thing is based on racial discrimination, it's not much more valid than saying B/G is sexist since it's based on gender discrimination. Good luck getting a G/G performer to jump into B/G with accusations of misandry. The point I was getting at isn't that IR is racist, it's that actually racist porn does exist. I'm talking the type of porn where performers have to play up negative racial stereotypes, use racial pejoratives and play on racist fears/fantasies. Whether it's a white american housewife cuckolding her impotent and boring white husband with young black men, a pack of jewish slaves gangbanging their female nazi guard, racist white cops making whores out of random black female drivers. There's racist porn for all sorts of complexes and fantasies, for all sorts of viewers. What's the point of discussing the implied racism of porn dick color discrimination when there is actual racist porn around? The type of person who can barely tolerate IR as its own category likely already wants all the racist porn banned, and they can leapfrog that by stopping IR from even being classified as its own thing out of political correctness. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show
^ either Mimefreak and Dogfart shoot firsts frequently. And again on a marketing level 1,000 requests for whatever reason make a starlet worth an investment because there's more people willing to pay to see her than those requested only 5 times. It's really simple , the fact that Blacked shoots mostly firsts gives to a first IR more value than a second one, hence the stars can charge more , same for all the others who want a first they must dwarf a potential Blacked offer otherwise she'll go there , plus Blacked usually puts a 6 months exclusivity clause in their contracts which means even more money for the stars.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 4:31PM
^^So you take fetish porn literally hoochimama? I'm also interested to know if you consider most scenario based b/g porn (I'm thinking Brazzers, Naughty America, etc.) to be sexist against women since those scenes routinely play up gender stereotypes. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 4:32:28 PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 4:37:07 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 6:10PM
If you think forcing porn to be politically correct is really about acceptance and inclusiveness then we live in different worlds.We're going off-topic here, but why would I? It's not as if they made Black Panther caucasian(please don't prove me wrong) or Thor a woman(yep), they're not changing a clearly established character for dubious reasons -because from what little I know of the character he's kind of a blank slate- it doesn't come across as a change for either better or worse, at best it was done in order to appeal to a wider audience/representation, at worst it was done for shallow reasons (they needed a token or hoped for viral racist publicity). As long as he's not the first to die who really gives a shit? When Aquaman got switched from a generic blonde white guy to a muscled surfer-looking polynesian with the saltwater-burned hair and all to me visually that was a clear improvement, it just fit the "half-atlantean King of the Sea" theme better. I know of a writer (medieval fantasy novels and games) who often gets awards for writing "diverse" characters. His approach to writing characters is that if a given character's race, gender or sexual orientation doesn't really matter to their job/role then he'll just write it as non-male(or non cis-gendered) and non-majority race/non-straight sexual orientation (as opposed to most of the audience). Some people think that's very progressive, to me it's just an incredibly shallow way of writing characters. All the worlds and characters he writes come across to me as fake/forced. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 5/21/2015 8:09:17 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 6:47PM
What exactly do you mean by that?Does playing up gender stereotypes really make something sexist? Are romantic comedies sexist then? I don't really pay attention to the scenarios in porn enough to be able notice anything of the sort, I just skip to the action. Of course if someone's determined to see things a certain way they can even make a shoe fit on a freaking amputated leg. I'm aware some of the older brazzers scenarios (pornstarpunishment&co) were kinda rapey, but I don't know if I'd consider depictions of sexual violence against women to be sexist against women, even if that kind of porn might please misogynists, the victim/sub isn't the one who's supposed to look bad in our eyes(I hope). And I do think those scenes were censored out of political correctness. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 5/21/2015 6:59:19 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 7:14PM
As you may know, there exist many kinds of fetishes, some of which are regularly seen in porn. Pornstars Punishment, for example, was a rape-play site, and what you described in the quote above are race-play scenes. I am asking if you take those and other fetish scenes literally, eg. are femdom scenes misandrist, are race-play scenes racist, and so on.It would if those scenes were meant to be taken literally, which of course they are not. Do you take the depiction of women in those scenes literally and regard them as sexist? Do you take race-play scenes literally and regard them as racist? I wrote a couple comments on this issue earlier in this thread, here and here. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 7:20:10 PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 7:27:32 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 8:02PM
The problem here is that you're repeatedly talking about "taking a scene porn scene literally" when there is no such thing as taking a porn scene literally as opposed to taking a porn scene figuratively. Like any work of art a porn scene is just there for you to take in. You can talk about the author's intent, but in the case of porn there is little doubt on it: to help you reach heightened sexual arousal(I won't say orgasm since a few of those dominatrix videos forbid the viewer from masturbating). There is no room for thinking that racist porn is trying to promote racism or that misandrist porn is trying to promote misandry. You can try to make baseless assumptions on the author's intended audience(racist whites? misandrist women?) but too often they'd be wrong (gay male porn for lesbians? naked male strippers for straight men?). All porn is trying to promote is a happy ending. Calling racist porn "race-play porn" is no more than a euphemism. What other kind of racist porn could there be? ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 5/21/2015 8:05:06 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 8:18PM
^In one of the comments I linked to I mentioned a scene that Carter Cruise shot with Bill Bailey, in which, among other things, he calls her a " fucking piece of garbage." Now I could watch that and say "Bill Bailey thinks that Carter Cruise is a piece of garbage. The website is also promoting the idea that Carter Cruise is a piece of garbage." That is what I mean by taking a scene literally. Alternatively, I could recognize that Bill and Carter were simply roleplaying in a fetish scenario, and that neither the site or Bill Bailey is trying to promote the idea that Carter Cruise is garbage.I'd say that the scenes you described aren't actually "racist" and that it makes no sense to refer to them as such. Furthermore, if these scenes are racist how then can they not be promoting racism? Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 8:21:13 PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/21/2015 8:30:34 PM
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 8:33PM
I'd say that anyone too stupid to understand that they're watching make believe of actors getting paid to play a part would be too busy worrying about the popularity of mass murderers like Tom Cruise, Sly, Schwarzie and co to worry about some slutty chicks and horny pizzaboys. Seriously how is that pertinent?If the scenes I described with the negative racial stereotypes, degrading scenarios, racial pejoratives etc (based on general assumptions since I don't actually watch that shit) aren't racist porn, then what would you consider to be racist porn?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 8:40PM
^If you are unable or unwilling to see how one fetish scenario is pertinent to another fetish scenario, then I don't know what I can do for you.
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hoochimama Deactivated User
1437 Posts 5/10
Posted - May 21 2015 : 8:40PM
Same way violent movies don't promote violence, despite what soccermoms/antigames/antiporn people and the censorship politicians would like everyone to believe. ________________________________________________ Please ID these girls from PlayboyTV's Foursome show Edited by - hoochimama on 5/21/2015 9:06:16 PM
The flip side of Lex's career is that a big part of his fame and popularity exists because he's black. He gets much of his work because he's a black guy with a big member. If Lex was white he may hame been just another guy in the white pornstar crowd and may not been nearly as successful if he wasn't black. Because he's black and his size he's been one of porn's go to guys to service this niche that exists. The same is true for some other black guys in porn. They've built a career by the fact that they're black and big. Some of them are good performers...others not so much. From a consumer aspect I don't quite get the concern. If you want to see more IR, then this system of paying a girl more money to do it gets you more of what you want. Is it costing you more? Is it affecting the performance? Is it putting other porn people out of work? Is this something that will shut the industry down? Are you ending up with less IR because of it as opposed to before? If you're worried that now this means all the white women will hold out on banging black guys...that not going to happen. This kind of thing usually rights itself. First off not every girl who wants a big payday from doing IR is going to get it because the demand to see them do it isn't there. There will always be white girls who prefer black guys and will gladly do it at their normal price. There are girls who will have their career pace planned at some point it they'll get to a place where it would be in the best interest of their career to go black because they've exhausted most other fetishes/genres in porn. There will always be the curious girls who want to try a black guy and get hooked. And clearly as the times and attitudes change this won't be much of an issue for performers in general (even though I think the fans will always make it a bigger deal than it deserves to be). I don't know...I just don't see the harmful effects from a consumer standpoint.
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Interracial4Life Deactivated User
329 Posts 3/15
Posted - May 21 2015 : 10:17PM
Not all IR fans aren't like that at all they don't support girls who won't do IR, and they don't like how the industry treat black men and IR fans. Too much BS
The whole point of and appeal of that stuff is that it's racist. I can see some people being offended by it because of the subject matter and negative stereotypes but it's not made to appeal to everyone. It's made for the people who get off to that sort of stuff. That's what porn is. Fetish and fantasy. Some people want to see romantic loving sex from a black man and white woman and others want to see a big black thug ravish a poor little white girl. You like what you like. There have been girls claiming they don't don't want to do IR because it's racist performing certain scenes but really is there that much difference between that and all the other roles they play? At the end of the day no one thinks they're really a hot secretary who bangs the boss at work. Do the people who watch the DOGFART, KINK, or EVIL ANGEL stuff think they're watching documentaries? It's all role-play. If watching stereotypical IR scenes changes the way a person views black men and or white women they had those issues already. That stuff caters to the people who think that way or want to to see it before they ever watched it.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 10:24PM
Though I watch a lot of IR, I'm also a big fan of Mike Adriano. If you have the time, I'd like you to visit his page on data18 and click "All content performed by Mike Adriano." You need only look at Page 1. Then, look up Lexington Steele on data18 and click "All content performed by Lexington Steele." Compare his Page 1 to Mike's. That is my concern.Pornstars "Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day" doesn't get me what I want now and, if successful, will likely get me even less of what I want down the line. As to the rest of your post, I envy your optimism.
You're concerned about a pornstar I recently saw on a list of the top richest pornstars. You're also comparing him to a performer who produces his own product and is almost always the sole male performer in them at an almost alarming rate and has consistantly for a long time. Yeah, Lex hasn't done as many scenes as Adriano but there plenty of white performers he's shot much more than. Lex is a legit porn icon. Mike in my opinion is a guy who pumps out movies. Nothing wrong with that and great at what he does but Mike wll never be as impactful or as well known in porn as Lex. I still can't see your side because in my mind it's not a numbers game and Lex will suddenly fade away because he can't get work. If I had to bet on which of these two will end up with the most succesful porn career I'd put my money on Lex. I'm not saying you're concerns aren't legit but they are very selective.
You can't say for sure. This paying more for IR thing may have gotten you girls to do IR who would've never done so otherwise. Maybe it will be the thing that gets more women to want to do IR in the future and it becomes a standard that everyone goes along with and the only people left upset by it is those few fans. Perhaps your doomsday senario never comes to pass.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 21 2015 : 11:07PM
^I'm not concerned about Lex personally, but when a man who you describe as an icon (and I agree) gets less work than a man who you describe as just pumping out movies (and I don't agree), I view that as a problem. ^Again, I envy your optimism.
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Macking_Moses Deactivated User
21 Posts 12/13
Posted - May 22 2015 : 1:20AM
That was just an excuse! We are talking about a girl who just did a scene where she let a guy piss in her mouth and get fucked in the ass while drinking toilet water. Then she has the nerve to say IR is degrading!! C'MON MAN
Is he getting less work or simply works less? Yeah, there are some white girls who won't bang Lex and Lex hasn't shot as many movies as Mike but does that automatically mean Lex is hurting for work or actually wants to shoot as many scenes/movies as Mike? Lex sems to has a lot more going on as far as side projects and other stuff he does and probably devotes time to those things and perhaps doesn't want to spend all his time performing. Mike's main thing seems to be making his movies. Again, I think Mike pumps out a lot of movies but that's not to say he's not good at it or it's a bad thing, merely a career choice. I'm sure Lex could shoot more if he choose to. While there may be girls who don't want to work with hime there's a very long list of girls who have and will.
I saw that interview a few weeks ago, and he is right. Girls who don't shoot IR are not getting much money as they can and grow a black fanbase. You people many not agree with him but he is in the industry, and you aren't so I believe on every word he said. Lisa Ann said the same thing. she will never paid a girl more for IR, and her IR rate should be the same as an B/G. BTW is there companies or directors refuse to paid girls more for IR scenes, I know Evil Angel is one of them. Edited by - Interracial4Life on 5/22/2015 11:00:20 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 22 2015 : 12:06PM
Lex says "Yeah, there is a differential between the numbers that I can accumulate versus, um, you know, someone else that is able to work with 100% of the talent pool. " That's at 0:53 - 1:03. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/22/2015 12:10:53 PM
Why don't the black male performers charge more for IR shoots if this is the case? Or at least charge more for the shoots of the white female performers holding out to increase their rate for IR. It seems like they are missing out of a great business opportunity for themselves.
Unfortunately, I doubt they are in a position to turn down work if the industry is in bad a shape as everyone claims. If one black guy says no, I want more money, they can just get another black guy.
I understand its something they would probably have to do has a collective. Like if the top 10-15 guys say no, pay us more also. Then the performer holding out would have to work with lesser talent. Of course the top guys would have to agree to do that and stick with it.
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Interracial4Life Deactivated User
329 Posts 3/15
Posted - May 24 2015 : 11:28PM
^^^ Unfortunately male performers don't get paid as much like the females do, now the top guys who been around for the longest like Prince, Lexington Steele,and others do. Also both of those guys directed there own movies in all but they also write the checks to the performers. BTW which companies, directors or agency don't paid girls more for IR scenes, Evil Angel is one of them. Edited by - Interracial4Life on 5/24/2015 11:29:35 PM
I actually saw that video about 2 weeks ago. I'm still sticking to what I said in that Lex will always have steady work and probably has no real desire to shoot as much as Mike A. I really don't think he has to. I agree that probably most white guys will be able to bang a certain percentage of white women that Lex can't but I don't see it as much of a problem that you do. If Lex can only shoot with 60% (made up number) of the girls in porn that still a lot girls and a lot of work availbale. What I find interesting is that I've seen or read Lex, Sean Michael, Mr Marcus, LT and some other black performers take on the whole white girls who won't do IR thing and while they acknowledge it's a reality they don't seem too bothered by it and accept it for what it is. It seems there are fans who are much more upset by it than them. As far as Kevin's concerns...I can understand him not wanting to pay more for talent. I can't imagine and director wanting to but it's part of the business and he has the option to say no. There are still girls he doesn't have to pay more for and only a perecentage of that are actually worth the extra money.
How do you know they don't? Perhaps not all black guys for every IR scene but I find it hard to believe that when someone like JULES JORDAN creates a line of movies built around Lex or Mandingo they don't get more money for it.
Audrey Madison Interview
Posted - May 19 2015 : 12:06AM
