Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day (page 34)

Author	Post
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 9:08AM Question is, are IR worth more? Are they more profitable? If the answer is yes then why they shouldn't pay as much as it is worth? [Link]
Joey Numbers Member 93 Posts 1/16	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 10:19AM If IR was simply more profitable, the majority of porn would be interracial. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 10:46AM ^ I meant with the single star , how profitable is a scene with Eva Lovia? How profitable would be an iR scene of Eva Lovia? Plus the single IR movie seems to top most charts or at least reaches the most sold area , hence as a single movie it is more profitable, however those who buy IR are a minority among the porn consumers it's a minority pushing up the relatively few dedicated movies whereas those who don't buy IR have a vastly larger offer to choose from, thus spreading their money among different titles or body types or subgenre So if a single IR movie sells say 1,000 copies (it's just an example not a real figure) and a non IR movies sells 800 copies then the IR one is more profitable , yet the non IR are way more than one and you have to multiply 800 to 10 at least. You can't put out as many IR products, there's no market for such a massive offer of IR scenes, it's not by chance that the black owned companies were those affected the most by the financial crisis and the massive increase of availability of pirated content So again as a genre it's not overall more profitable than "regular" (for lack of a better word) but the single issue might be and certainly is if it features major stars or it's above average in quality Edited by - LCF on 4/9/2016 10:49:43 AM [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:13AM ^Several Black owned companies were bought out, Black producers fired, Black actors not hired, before porn became all white. That complicates your case that the market is not there for IR or Black on Black. It points to a agenda to make porn all white or Bw/Wm and it has backfired drastically. The financial crisis did not affect Black companies more because they were bought out before the crash. You could say that is what caused the crash. [Link]

LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:22AM ^ what are you talking about? Black PRODUCERS Fired? Who the hell can fire a producer? He's the one putting the money in Black performers not hired? so who was fired? by whom? Who bought the black owned companies? What companies? Also as far as I know the financial crisis begun in 2007 with Lehmann Brothers' default and as far as i know the black owned companies were well in the business back then. Edited by - LCF on 4/9/2016 11:28:05 AM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:25AM ^^Porn has not become all white. Are you just ignoring how big IR has become thanks to the Blacked effect? [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:32AM ^ read again he's basically saying that the whole financial crisis has been provoked by a white conspiracy in porn in order to remove all that is black from there. It's not her who shrink the porn market , it's the porn market who provoked it "you could say" [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 12:49PM fredgee wrote: ^Several Black owned companies were bought out, Black producers fired Click to expand Which black producers? And by whom? And where is the proof this happened? Black actors not hired, before porn became all white. Click to expand Which black actors? And by whom? And where is the proof this happened? [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 2:10PM ^ Maybe I should have said directors were let go instead of producers but some producers did leave the industry..the rest of what I said is pretty obvious considering there are no Black titles in the new release section and IR is a novelty in this day and age. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 2:14PM Which black directors then? And by whom? And where is the proof? You keep asserting this giant conspiracy yet I haven't seen proof of it. These claims by you should be simple to back up. You stated they did happen. If they did and you know they did then you have proof that they did and why they did. After all the claims you've made, I'd like to see some proof of it. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 3:38PM ^^ There's nothing obvious especially when you keep saying basically nothing of consistence, which directors have been let go? By whom? Elegant Angel let go LT but also William H , Mason, Grazer/Mick Blue and everybody else Mimefreak went out himself from EA as well ,to found a new company ,but I assume this doesn't count that he , a black man, has been trusted to run such company. This doesn't fit with your conspiracy theory I assume. Also what novelty? Many studios are now shooting IR even those who weren't such as Babes and Colette, new IR sites have been created so what is you're talking about? Edited by - LCF on 4/9/2016 4:57:57 PM [Link]
zambi Senior Member 1451 Posts 3/10	Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 6:20PM zambi wrote: When it comes to female pornstars refusing to do IR scenes all I can say is ... Give the people what they want Edited by - zambi on 4/8/2016 8:29:50 PM Click to expand But I also understand if someone says its their perogative to do IR ... My Prerogative [Link]
high_flyin5 Member 729 Posts 6/10	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 4:41AM I think when talking about holding out for more money in IR, we may want to distinguish between holding out on IR scenes to potentially use it in a showcase movie, and just demanding a higher rate for IR in any scene. While I personally think it's repugnant no matter what the case, I can understand the approach in the former scenario. Allison Moore was talking on Lexington Steele's radio show about how the showcase can be used as a way for a female performer to get her per scene rate increased for all B/G. On a certain level this makes sense, since it seems like showcase films from popular performers seem to sell rather well. However, the issue I think that directors (Quasar specifically) and other performers have is that rather than spring-boarding to an increased rate for all B/G scenes, some performers are just flat-out saying "I'll charge x amount for B/G, unless it's IR in which case you have to pay me x more". Ethics aside, I can see how this would be infuriating for a director since I can't imagine that an IR scene on a website (or a non-IR themed film) is that much more profitable. This may have already been discussed, I just didn't feel like scrolling through 30+ pages. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 8:16AM LCF wrote: Question is, are IR worth more? Are they more profitable? If the answer is yes then why they shouldn't pay as much as it is worth? Click to expand It has to be worth more, otherwise why would savvy producers ever pay extra for it? I'm pretty sure smart guys like Jules Jordan and Greg Lansky are not interested in the business of dumping dollars down the drain. I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in lighting stacks of money on fire. I'm pretty sure they know how to invest, considering they're among the most successful entrepreneurs to enter this industry. It all points to the fact that there is extra money to be made, if not in IR, then in securing 1st time IR exclusive rights. Jules has been in this biz for at least 15 years producing and directing. Riley Reid posted a blog entry recently where she admitted to being paid an extra $4,000 for her first IR, but then goes on to say it was wrong and other girls should not do this. Yeah right! I trust she means well, but all she did was give girls even more reason to hold out looking for a easy cash-in (something which the long-term arithmetic does not really justify). This is why I prefer folks avoid sanctimony on the issue. It's just business, and something is only worth what people are willing to pay. If someone is willing to pay more, then who are we to blame the seller for accepting the higher bid? Yes discrimination is wrong, but it does not come from pornstars or porn producers. It comes from consumers, and in the case of IR porn, it is precisely because there is such a demand for 1st time IR that the industry has found this way to capitalize. So be leery of moral grandstanding and preaching on this issue. Ultimately it condemns the very people who support IR in the first place. Before you point your finger over this issue you should understand how it has come to be in the first place. And it has nothing to do with hate. It's actually the opposite. It happens because people value it. It would be a whole different issue if the practice meant that IR scenes were devalued and worth less. But they are worth more. So it's highly ironic that people would be mad at this. The consumers say "This is worth more to us" and the industry responds by saying "Ok then, we will pay more to provide it!" And everyone wins. If there is a victim in this, then it should be a case put forth by plaintiffs on behalf of producers. They are the ones being compelled to shell out extra money. But isn't it interesting how little we hear from them complaining about it? Maybe that's because, despite having to pay extra, in the tune of hundreds of even thousands of dollars more per scene, they are STILL profiting off it. Just look at the wildly successful Blacked business model. And notice no one complains about them. I wonder why. But I bet you that any of the critics of this practice, e.g. Riley Reid, would love to be on Blacked. In fact she has been on that site. But I highly doubt she's going to condemn them. [Link]

Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 8:41AM Joey Numbers wrote: If IR was simply more profitable, the majority of porn would be interracial. Click to expand But remember there are only so many black male performers, meanwhile there are tons more white male performers. At least 5 times as many white male performers. Maybe 10 times as many. So even if every porn company recognized the value of IR (and most do), they cannot possibly shoot the majority of their content as IR because of the relatively limited talent pool. So it only figures that the vast majority of porn produced will feature all white talent. And it still makes enough money obviously to justify its production. But given the obstacle of having to pay more for so many new females' first IR, the fact that it's being produced as much as we can only assume is possible should say that it's definitely profitable. I think it's safe to assume that IR is being produced at the quickest rate possible which means a new IR scene is being shot the moment the schedule of a black male talent is open. But you tell us why you think Jules Jordan would pay Riley Reid 4 grand extra for her first IR? And that's just one example out of no doubt countless others. JJ and RR are not bad people. And indeed, as has been pointed out by other commenters here, it's laughably hypocritical for some of the pornstars in the Twittersphere to be grandstanding on this issue, knowing many of them took extra pay for their first IR. In the end, this is a lot of hot air and unearned moral superiority. But as an IR fan, I would only hope that somehow the practice of rate-gouging for IR could be abolished. But as long as something is worth more, people will find ways to charge more. Isn't that the job of agents anyway? Why does no one mention them? Aren't they supposed to book the most profitable schedule that they can for the talent they represent? Isn't it their job to get porn companies to basically compete for the best offer? Won't that inevitably result in some price-gouging? Just try and put yourself in the shoes of an agent. If you are representing the hottest new starlet out there, and companies are vying to get her first IR, are you going to go with the first offer just because? What if you stand to profit 3 grand, 4 grand or 5 grand extra by accepting the highest bid? If a company really really wants her first IR, isn't it your job to secure the best deal for her? I worry that people kneejerk over this issue at face value, without putting themselves in the shoes of all parties involved. I honestly don't think this is such a easy issue to judge. Who is the bad guy? Who do you blame first? Don't the consumers ultimately dictate what practices are most profitable? Aren't agents, performers and producers only responding to demand? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 8:45AM fredgee wrote: ^Several Black owned companies were bought out, Black producers fired, Black actors not hired, before porn became all white. That complicates your case that the market is not there for IR or Black on Black. It points to a agenda to make porn all white or Bw/Wm and it has backfired drastically. The financial crisis did not affect Black companies more because they were bought out before the crash. You could say that is what caused the crash. Click to expand wat [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 9:14AM fredgee wrote: ^ Maybe I should have said directors were let go instead of producers but some producers did leave the industry..the rest of what I said is pretty obvious considering there are no Black titles in the new release section and IR is a novelty in this day and age. Click to expand I don't think the most prominent black directors that come to mind are being discriminated against. The first three that come to mind are Alexander Devoe, Mimefreak, and LT. Devoe parted ways with JJV saying that he just wanted to pursue other things outside of porn. No harm no foul. More power to him. I would definitely welcome him back though, as I preferred his Orgy Masters flicks to the ones that came afterward. I also liked his other flicks for JJV, including Dynamic Booty #4 (I mention this one a lot lately. Damn I miss Austin Taylor lol). Mimefreak was one of several who parted ways with Elegant, but he's been having great success with his new brand ArchAngel, charting several top selling titles. I'm a big supporter of MF. LT who goes by El_Tea on here also just charted with The Big Black Ass Movie. I do not believe there's any conspiracy against them. If there was, why would Jules Jordan have made amends with Prince Yahshua, whose clashing with several others besides JJ was infamous? Prince even tweeted a giant FUCK YOU to AVN recently. lol. He's a bridge burner and highly volatile. I could see why a major company would hesitate partnering with him. And yet he's still getting work. I think the industry is all too happy to partner with positive and professional black male talent, in front or behind the camera. But everyone cuts their own deal. So in summation, I hope Devoe comes back if he wants to, and if he does I'm sure he'll find a home with a number of quality companies, or he could even start up his own. And actually, I'm glad Mime parted with Elegant because now we have ArchAngel and that caters more to what I like. So it's been a good thing as far as I can tell. And if LT didn't part with Elegant also, we probably wouldn't have gotten Big Black Ass Movie, not on the same schedule anyway. Plus we can't ignore the white directors who also had to part ways with bigs like Elegant Angel and JJV. Speaking of which, I know someone who recently decided to go independent and is now enjoying great success, an an artist called The Pit . It was long overdue and I couldn't be happier for him. =) [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 9:39AM Melvyn wrote: If there is a victim in this, then it should be a case put forth by plaintiffs on behalf of producers. They are the ones being compelled to shell out extra money. But isn't it interesting how little we hear from them complaining about it? Maybe that's because, despite having to pay extra, in the tune of hundreds of even thousands of dollars more per scene, they are STILL profiting off it. Just look at the wildly successful Blacked business model. And notice no one complains about them. I wonder why. But I bet you that any of the critics of this practice, e.g. Riley Reid, would love to be on Blacked. In fact she has been on that site. But I highly doubt she's going to condemn them. Click to expand Of course the producers aren't going to be happy that they have to pay more for anything. The less they pay the girls the more they keep for themselves. They don't like paying more but see it as a necessary evil and the cost of doing business. Those producers better than anyone know if the numbers/sales justify a girl's extra pay. And if the extra we're hearing about is any indication then those IR firsts, scenes, and showcases must be doing great business and very profitable for them because it's not like they are paying some girls an extra $500 dollars but thousands of dollars extra. If what Riley said is true and she got 4 grand to do her first IR then the producer/studio made a big profit from her doing it to justify her doing it. And the profit and justification remains high(er) if they still continue to do the same with girl after girl. If the extra pay wasn't worth it for the studio the extra pay practice would stop. If it wasn't worth it and there was no or not enough return on their investment they'd go under and be out of business. Instead the opposite is happening and more money is being thrown around. And again, not every girl is worth so much and it's a mistake to pay some girls so much over their normal pay rate but the ones that are seem to be worth it in certain cases. The girls who don't want to charge more...that's great for them. They should do what works for them. For the ones who do want more or as much as they can get I totally think they should. Hollywood, music, comics, and entertainment in general is full of stories of talent being taken advantage of. Things are better in tv and movies now but there was a time the talent that made the studios so much money didn't get paid their true value. On those old sitcoms the actors/talent got paid a good rate to do those shows and movies but the studios made millions upon millions of their backs. Lots of stars have struggled in their later years while the studios continue to make tons of money from their work. Syndication, DVD sales, merchandize, etc...Bigwigs at the top who have very little to do with a project's success are making millions and the talent totally responsible gets close to nothing in comparison. Like I said things are better now but it took agents years to get their clients what they actually deserved. In music you constantly hear of hugely popular performers not living the type of life you'd expect because they are in a bad contract and the record label takes advantage of them because they were eager to sign any deal offered. Comics were filled with talent working on books that sold almost a million copies per issue and the company wouldn't give the talent responsible a measly 5 per page pay increase. Porn is a much smaller medium. There are studios that struggle and go under. But there are some that do okay all things considered. If those studios can afford to pay a girl more for IR, anal, midgets or whatever and still be profitable they should. The girls in porn only get paid for one time for that scene. Yet that scene will make money from being on the site, DVD sales, PPV sales, being repackaged in compilations, sold to other companies, images used to direct people to sites, etc....Probably not millions for the studio/producer but it can continue to make money for them after the scene/movie is shot. People are still making money from Sasha Grey's porn work even though she's long gone. Shouldn't Sasha have made some of that money? Something to think about instead of only looking at it as a skin color issue. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 10:08AM ^ Good points. To the point about Sasha Grey's work still generating profit for the producers from years ago, I wonder if any pornstars negotiate for royalties. Surely some of the top names must be able to? Or is that only for Hollywood? [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 3:52PM This thread is about IR but take IR out of the equation and think about a industry that was once worth billions going broke. Think about how porn consumers are affected by this. The last thing a porn consumer should do is see things from producers standpoint. They are the ones responsible for ruining the industry. Porn consists of a few major studios and several smaller ones, when the bigger companies start a trend it forces smaller ones to follow that is what happened when IR is a novelty or Black on Black unprofitable. It would be a problem if it were true but if it is not true then something should be done because it hurts the industry. Even though this is a message board where people come for entertainment as much as enlightenment popular opinion is still the most power force in business. If producers believe they can get away with force feeding what they are doing then they will keep doing it..consumers have to force change. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 5:04PM ^ You still have said nothing to back up your past claims yet. If you don't want to sound like a lone conspiracy nut chasing a non-existent conspiracy you should back up what you have said. "... [P]opular opinion is still the most power force in business, " is true but you have to do more than just make things up to change popular opinion. Edited by - flash on 4/10/2016 5:04:48 PM [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 7:01PM Evil Angel stopped distributing Brian Pumper and Justin Slayer. Without EA's support their production rates went way down and I belive has pretty much stopped. Pumper was let go because he shot a scene without having the proper tests for STDs or HIV in place. Why Slayer and Stagliano parted is less clear, apparently Stagliano wasn't happy with the quality of some of Slayer's shooting but I'm not a hundred percent sure of that. Recently I've seen some posters here say certain black male performers were run out of the industry for being rough or disrespectful towards the female performers. Not sure of the truth of any of that but the producers thing has some foundation in reality at least. Not that I agree with his conspiracy theory or hilarious claim that the massive drop in porn production has to do with the lack of black-on-black porn instead of the obvious culprits, tubesites and downloading. I do think the huge drop in profits has hurt black-on-black porn and black directors and producers more so than others. First really heard and saw the effects of the downturn around 2008/2009. Not sure it was connected directly to the financial meltdown though as previously porn was considered recession proof. Edited by - BlackSix on 4/10/2016 7:03:34 PM [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 7:52PM I never said the downturn was because companies stopped shooting Black on Black. The point was there were several reasons for the downturn including the lack of diversity which lead to porn becoming basically all White with a shrinking White demographic. There is no way it can grow because the market is not there. I always said retaining actresses, get more consumer feedback, more diversity would improve the situation and it is up to consumers not producers. [Link]
julesjordanvideo JulesJordan.com Professional Perverts 1003 Posts 9/01	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 3:04PM What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol [Link]

LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 4:54PM ^ And this ends the drama , LOL [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 6:09PM julesjordanvideo wrote: What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol Click to expand What Lex? [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 6:10PM LCF wrote: ^ And this ends the drama , LOL Click to expand Lol...no it doesn't. [Link]
AcidReign23 Member 63 Posts 5/15	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 9:07PM Jules still works with Lex and has another (awesome) installment of the Lex The Impaler series coming soon. He's obviously (subliminally) referring to Mandingo... Mandingo wanted more money to continue shooting with Jules. I'm sure Mandingo saw how highly successful the Mandingo series were with Jules and wanted a pay raise. They couldn't on terms and Mandingo parted ways... Now this doesn't mean they will never work together again. Fans have requested a gazillion times to Jules that they work together again and it sounds likes he is amendable to that if Mandingo wants to, but Mandingo strikes me as stubborn and has moved on for now. [Link]
MimeFreak Senior Member 1819 Posts 2/14	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 10:40PM julesjordanvideo wrote: What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol Click to expand Awe man. Tell me about it. [Link]
ghost88 Member 615 Posts 9/13	Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 11:22PM I think Mandingo is the guy being talking about. How can someone speak about 1 but not the other? If you have no problem paying a chick who's been in the industry over 10 years, past her prime,to get her jungle fever on or the countless other chicks who get paid more, then it's a little hypocritical. I'm sure James Deen, Manuel Ferrara rates are higher than Mandingo's but it's ok for them to do it. Mandingo's "rate" wasn't based around skin color, he's just using his pull, and was probably getting paid less than what he deserved. He is one of the few blacks in the industry who has it and props to him. Everyone knows black men/women are paid lower than others. It's no secret, can't get mad when one ask for what they believe they deserve. That's totally different from"blacks aren't human, so I need more money to work with them." [Link]
julesjordanvideo JulesJordan.com Professional Perverts 1003 Posts 9/01	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 12:09AM I'm not referring to one specific person, its actually multiple people.....but in general when we call to book people of all types, we get the higher rate quotes. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 1:34AM So as it appears all performers either male or female , black or white actually charge more when they think there's more money to be made from the company they work with? Higher rated companies are charged more than those thought as the less profitable ones Is that what you mean? [Link]
ghost88 Member 615 Posts 9/13	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 1:49AM ^^ Well, I just don't see how multiple black guys can charge higher besides mandingo or lex. They are just sticks right? Easily replaceable. At 1 point mr. marcus was 1 of your main guys, he gets in trouble, you move on to the next right? James Deen gets in trouble, and number companies stop using him just like that. I never understood guys getting their own series. 1 of your main guys is prince yahshua(who is unwatchable for me) has 1. If he ask for more, just don't do it. He really has no power in my opinion. It's all about the girls he's fucking, not him. I just think the girls sell the movies, not the guys, and any money power handed to the male talent is giving to them by studios/directors/producers. There's a ton of black male talent out there who get no work, that i have never seen work for jjv, and i'm sure can't charge more. Girls are different, there can be a lack of quality female talent out there available for IR, so you are kinda forced into paying them. I just compare the quality of girls other IR companies get to what "blacked" gets. It's not even close. The reason blacked is so popular is because they keep getting high demand dodgers for a big pay day. Peta Jesen is setting the IR world on fire today, the way Brett Rossi did a couple weeks ago. I think most black male talent out there is horrible, but as long they are shooting with hot girls, it doesn't matter to the average consumer. If you can get Alexis Texas, jesse jane, Kayden Kross, riley steele, ect..to touch a black guy, it's gonna sell regardless of the guy that you use. I just find it hard to believe that male talent charging higher rate can be compared to the way females are charging more for IR. Male talent is just to disposable for that to be the case. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:12AM ghost88 wrote: I never understood guys getting their own series. Click to expand When a large enough number of consumers want to see a pornstar fucked by a specific guy, that guy gets a series. If Prince gets his own movies it's because his name helps sell dvds. Isn't that obvious? Porn is a business. 9 times out of 10 the answer is going to be "'Cause $$$." [Link]

fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:15AM Black guys have a different style that is why they charge more..sure the company has a lot to do with it and so does demand but they are more than just sticks. Lex, Rico, Prince, Mandingo are different than the white guys in porn. [Link]
Mister Fahrenheit All-Star Member Meh 4655 Posts 10/13	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:19AM ^^ So naive misspornUSA. Obviously the reason things happen in porn is because of the individual whims of directors which typically run counter to demands of the market. Clearly, they are under the sway of the Illuminati. Profit?! Don't make me laugh. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:20AM ^. [Link]
LeyaFalcon Senior Member Something Else 1000 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 6:38AM LCF wrote: ^ There are some , including girls married with black guys, Leya Falcon was one her ex black husband didn't allow her to perform with black guys , she begun when divorced. Click to expand this is correct! [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 7:00AM ghost88 wrote: I think Mandingo is the guy being talking about. How can someone speak about 1 but not the other? If you have no problem paying a chick who's been in the industry over 10 years, past her prime,to get her jungle fever on or the countless other chicks who get paid more, then it's a little hypocritical. I'm sure James Deen, Manuel Ferrara rates are higher than Mandingo's but it's ok for them to do it. Mandingo's "rate" wasn't based around skin color, he's just using his pull, and was probably getting paid less than what he deserved. He is one of the few blacks in the industry who has it and props to him. Everyone knows black men/women are paid lower than others. It's no secret, can't get mad when one ask for what they believe they deserve. That's totally different from"blacks aren't human, so I need more money to work with them." Click to expand Exactly! [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 7:02AM LCF wrote: So as it appears all performers either male or female , black or white actually charge more when they think there's more money to be made from the company they work with? Higher rated companies are charged more than those thought as the less profitable ones Is that what you mean? Click to expand BUT IT'S NOT RACIAL WHEN LEX, OR MANDINGO DO IT. THEY ARE NOT SAYING PAY ME MORE FOR FUCKING WHITE GIRLS ONLY. THEY WANT MORE MONEY PERIOD. WHY COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES? [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 8:37AM ^ first things first, stop yelling at me! according to the netiquette an all capital message is equivalent to yelling , so don't! Secondly, are you really stating that all those black guys don't know it's going to be IR when JJV hires them? Can you please lead me to a Black on Black movie from JJ? If any when was it shot? So the hell isn't racial, they know exactly what it is going to be and they charge more. with your parameter we could also say the girl at Blacked/Tushy aren't charging more for IR ,we could say they don't know after all , it could be an all whites for Tushy, couldn't it? So I'm comparing fruit to fruit , apples and oranges are still fruits. but MOST OF ALL , that wasn't what I really meant, I said that a performer would charge more when the scene is worth more we all know JJV are among the best sellers out there , his products are of high quality , possibly they take more time to be made then the average ones hence performing time wise JJV are charged more. Plus there were those claiming that black male performers aren't paid more for IR and that they should on this very thread, we just were informed that they actually do charge more and they really are paid more. Edited by - LCF on 4/13/2016 8:39:44 AM [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 1:31PM BBC COMMANDS RESPECT! YOU WILL PAY MORE FOR IT AND YOU WILL LIKE IT! Or as Lex Steele once told me "Shut up and eat your cereal!" (funny story behind that) lmao I love you dudes. Jules, Mime, Lex. You are all titans. I love all you dudes's work and wish you continued success. Let's keep it real. I'm sure we would all agree it would be nice if there could be some type of regulation against fee-gouging for 1st time IR, such that the races never affect prices. But the simple fact of the matter is it is not performers or producers who decide what a product is worth. It is determined by consumers. And so it is foolish to point the finger at them as if they are the bad guys. They vie and compete in bidding wars to secure exclusive rights to scenes featuring popular stars performing popular sex. Where people misconstrue this variable valuation of interracial is in thinking that a performer is charging more, or a producer is paying more, on account of disrespect of contempt or even worse, outright racist hatred. They think because it's not all flat-rates of equity, then it's ethically problematic and someone is being victimized or marginalized. I suppose we would need a Johnny Cochran to explain this one. But honestly fam, it's not that complicated, and the truth is very au contraire to what the objectors' grievances are presuming. It has nothing to do with discrimination against black men having sex with white women. It's discrimination FOR them. Their value hasn't been degraded. They've been upgraded. The only issue is, how do the black male performers get a piece of that action? Well, 1st-time exclusive bonus pay naturally goes to whomever is doing something for the first time. But virtually all the black male performers in the game have done white females already. That's just how it works out when the majority of females are white. So as I said before, it's no surprise the black male talent doesn't get any bonus pay for doing something for the 1st time. However I would have to assume that they do get properly compensated to the tune that they are valued in the game, which I could only speculate, but I feel safe to assume is generally a little higher than the average white male performer. In the end, things pretty much work out about as well as possible in a free market. It isn't perfect. Nothing ever is. As an IR fan, I have selfish reasons to prefer that the cost of producing IR and including 1st time IR was reduced a lot so that guys like Jules Jordan, MimeFreak, and Lanksy can make even more of it. That would be great. I'm sure it would also be great for producers if the cost of hiring Lex Steele or Mandingo was reduced to standard male rates. But that comes at those guys' expense. We do not have a right to arbitrate like that. Everything isn't going to be equal all the time. So please, take in the wisdom of the legend Bruce Lee, which was brought to my attention by a tweet on India Summer's timeline: [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:07PM ghost88 wrote: I think Mandingo is the guy being talking about. Click to expand No. First off, he did not say "guy" he said "guys." ghost88 wrote:How can someone speak about 1 but not the other? Click to expand You mean like how this entire debate has been raging forever by only addressing females getting a 1 time bonus pay for their 1st IR? But how almost no one ever brings up the fact that so many popular black male performers also make more? I have pointed this out several times but it never seems to register. ghost88 wrote: If you have no problem paying a chick who's been in the industry over 10 years, past her prime,to get her jungle fever on or the countless other chicks who get paid more, then it's a little hypocritical. Click to expand How is he being hypocritical? He's only responded with the reality of the greater picture. Not everything is equal, and just because there is disparity does not mean it's unethical. Sometimes the most ethical position requires disparity. But disparity based on what? One aspect? There are always various aspects that determine market value. This is what agents spend their entire livelihoods determining. ghost88 wrote: I'm sure James Deen, Manuel Ferrara rates are higher than Mandingo's but it's ok for them to do it. Click to expand Eh. Maybe. But how can you be so sure? Have you tried hiring them? Have you tried hiring Lex? ghost88 wrote: Mandingo's "rate" wasn't based around skin color, Click to expand Ehhh... Well maybe not, but surely the argument that his skin color is working against him sort of falls apart when, you know, his stage name is MANDINGO. He's celebrated and admired for representing, among other things, a famous Nubian warrior tribe. The economic power of those haters out there who condemn interracial and harbor bigoted and racist views against blacks, particularly against black men, is easily trumped by the economic power of those who support and even favor him for all that he is. ghost88 wrote: he's just using his pull, and was probably getting paid less than what he deserved. Click to expand citation needed that supports your "probable" suggestion. ghost88 wrote:He is one of the few blacks in the industry who has it and props to him. Click to expand Who has what? Achieved success-- success above and beyond the average male performers? What about Jack Napier? What about Sean Michaels? What about Shane Diesel? What about Lex Steele? What about Justin Slayer? What about Rico Strong? What about Richard Mann? These guys have all had movies where their names were in the title. And the list goes on. You act as if the black male in porn who is successful is the exception to the rule. I would argue the opposite. The black male performer who fails in porn is the exception. And all those names I listed could easily have negotiated for rates that were above the average male rate. Maybe not all as much as Mandingo, but still surely more than the typical hired stickman. ghost88 wrote:Everyone knows black men/women are paid lower than others. Click to expand Do they now? Citation needed. ghost88 wrote:It's no secret, can't get mad when one ask for what they believe they deserve. Click to expand In porn, everyone gets what they deserve. This is not an occupation of necessity. It's a luxury. No one really needs this to live. To succeed more in entertainment, you have to entertain more people. If not that many people are entertained, well good luck to you. ghost88 wrote: That's totally different from"blacks aren't human, so I need more money to work with them." Click to expand And that is totally different from anything anyone has discussed here. It's not even on topic. No one supports or defends that mentality whatsoever. You misunderstand this issue entirely. It's been broken down so many times before. We'll try again. If someone is willing to pay a little more for something, then why is someone wrong to sell it for a little more? Who is the bad guy here? Who suffers? Who benefits? If everyone benefits, how is this bad? This is not like the Schkreli case where he gouged the price of medicine 6000%. Nobody is out there saying they would only do IR if they are paid Well perhaps almost no one... Edited by - Melvyn on 4/13/2016 2:12:59 PM [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 4:21PM Melvyn wrote: I'm sure we would all agree it would be nice if there could be some type of regulation against fee-gouging for 1st time IR, such that the races never affect prices. But the simple fact of the matter is it is not performers or producers who decide what a product is worth. It is determined by consumers. Click to expand As long as viewers clamor for the first anything, there will be more charge to do it. Therefore there could never be such a contract. If people stopped caring about first IRs then they wouldn't cost extra anymore. So on for all other acts that cost more. [Link]
Janitor Retired Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 7:09AM julesjordanvideo wrote: What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol Click to expand Quote of the week. [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 2:21PM ^That's no 'quote of the week', that is a statement that distracts from the issue of white/asian/latin/black females charges higher rates to work with black men. #redherring [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 3:52PM ^ Yeah black men charging more for shooting with white girls , really distracts from the issue, it doesn't fit , at all with the whole drama many created out there [Link]
Joey Numbers Member 93 Posts 1/16	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 4:38PM ^Where did anyone imply black talent charge more to work with white women? Jules Jordan said people, including black talent, quote higher rates to work with his studio. Edited by - joey numbers on 4/14/2016 4:45:48 PM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 4:51PM ^ He only shoots IR when he hires black guys so... Same for Mimefreak , he didn't shoot any black on Black movie so far , so again it's going to be IR when he hires a black guy You think they don't know this? [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 4:55PM Anyway as I already stated I don't think they charge more because the lady is white they do that because when it's IR there's more money to be made and they want a share of it, the very same thing some white stars do at least for their first scene, the male guys do that for every scene... [Link]

Author

Post

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 9:08AM

Question is, are IR worth more? Are they more profitable?
If the answer is yes then why they shouldn't pay as much as it is worth?

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Joey Numbers
Member

93 Posts
1/16

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 10:19AM

If IR was simply more profitable, the majority of porn would be interracial.

[Link]

LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 10:46AM

^
I meant with the single star , how profitable is a scene with Eva Lovia?
How profitable would be an iR scene of Eva Lovia?
Plus the single IR movie seems to top most charts or at least reaches the most sold area , hence as a single movie it is more profitable, however those who buy IR are a minority among the porn consumers it's a minority pushing up the relatively few dedicated movies whereas those who don't buy IR have a vastly larger offer to choose from, thus spreading their money among different titles or body types or subgenre
So if a single IR movie sells say 1,000 copies (it's just an example not a real figure) and a non IR movies sells 800 copies then the IR one is more profitable , yet the non IR are way more than one and you have to multiply 800 to 10 at least.
You can't put out as many IR products, there's no market for such a massive offer of IR scenes, it's not by chance that the black owned companies were those affected the most by the financial crisis and the massive increase of availability of pirated content
So again as a genre it's not overall more profitable than "regular" (for lack of a better word) but the single issue might be and certainly is if it features major stars or it's above average in quality
Edited by - LCF on 4/9/2016 10:49:43 AM

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fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:13AM

^Several Black owned companies were bought out, Black producers fired, Black actors not hired, before porn became all white. That complicates your case that the market is not there for IR or Black on Black. It points to a agenda to make porn all white or Bw/Wm and it has backfired drastically. The financial crisis did not affect Black companies more because they were bought out before the crash. You could say that is what caused the crash.

[Link]

LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:22AM

^
what are you talking about?
Black PRODUCERS Fired?
Who the hell can fire a producer? He's the one putting the money in
Black performers not hired?
so who was fired? by whom?
Who bought the black owned companies?
What companies?
Also as far as I know the financial crisis begun in 2007 with Lehmann Brothers' default and as far as i know the black owned companies were well in the business back then.
Edited by - LCF on 4/9/2016 11:28:05 AM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:25AM

^^Porn has not become all white. Are you just ignoring how big IR has become thanks to the Blacked effect?

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LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 11:32AM

^
read again he's basically saying that the whole financial crisis has been provoked by a white conspiracy in porn in order to remove all that is black from there.
It's not her who shrink the porn market , it's the porn market who provoked it "you could say"

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 12:49PM

Which black producers? And by whom? And where is the proof this happened?

Which black actors? And by whom? And where is the proof this happened?

[Link]

fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 2:10PM

^ Maybe I should have said directors were let go instead of producers but some producers did leave the industry..the rest of what I said is pretty obvious considering there are no Black titles in the new release section and IR is a novelty in this day and age.

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 2:14PM

Which black directors then? And by whom? And where is the proof?
You keep asserting this giant conspiracy yet I haven't seen proof of it. These claims by you should be simple to back up. You stated they did happen. If they did and you know they did then you have proof that they did and why they did. After all the claims you've made, I'd like to see some proof of it.

[Link]

LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 3:38PM

^^
There's nothing obvious especially when you keep saying basically nothing of consistence, which directors have been let go? By whom?
Elegant Angel let go LT but also William H , Mason, Grazer/Mick Blue and everybody else Mimefreak went out himself from EA as well ,to found a new company ,but I assume this doesn't count that he , a black man, has been trusted to run such company. This doesn't fit with your conspiracy theory I assume.
Also what novelty?
Many studios are now shooting IR even those who weren't such as Babes and Colette, new IR sites have been created so what is you're talking about?

Edited by - LCF on 4/9/2016 4:57:57 PM

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zambi
Senior Member

1451 Posts
3/10

Posted - Apr 9 2016 : 6:20PM

But I also understand if someone says its their perogative to do IR ...
My Prerogative

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high_flyin5
Member

729 Posts
6/10

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 4:41AM

I think when talking about holding out for more money in IR, we may want to distinguish between holding out on IR scenes to potentially use it in a showcase movie, and just demanding a higher rate for IR in any scene. While I personally think it's repugnant no matter what the case, I can understand the approach in the former scenario. Allison Moore was talking on Lexington Steele's radio show about how the showcase can be used as a way for a female performer to get her per scene rate increased for all B/G. On a certain level this makes sense, since it seems like showcase films from popular performers seem to sell rather well. However, the issue I think that directors (Quasar specifically) and other performers have is that rather than spring-boarding to an increased rate for all B/G scenes, some performers are just flat-out saying "I'll charge x amount for B/G, unless it's IR in which case you have to pay me x more". Ethics aside, I can see how this would be infuriating for a director since I can't imagine that an IR scene on a website (or a non-IR themed film) is that much more profitable. This may have already been discussed, I just didn't feel like scrolling through 30+ pages.

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 8:16AM

It has to be worth more, otherwise why would savvy producers ever pay extra for it? I'm pretty sure smart guys like Jules Jordan and Greg Lansky are not interested in the business of dumping dollars down the drain. I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in lighting stacks of money on fire. I'm pretty sure they know how to invest, considering they're among the most successful entrepreneurs to enter this industry.
It all points to the fact that there is extra money to be made, if not in IR, then in securing 1st time IR exclusive rights. Jules has been in this biz for at least 15 years producing and directing. Riley Reid posted a blog entry recently where she admitted to being paid an extra $4,000 for her first IR, but then goes on to say it was wrong and other girls should not do this. Yeah right! I trust she means well, but all she did was give girls even more reason to hold out looking for a easy cash-in (something which the long-term arithmetic does not really justify).
This is why I prefer folks avoid sanctimony on the issue. It's just business, and something is only worth what people are willing to pay. If someone is willing to pay more, then who are we to blame the seller for accepting the higher bid? Yes discrimination is wrong, but it does not come from pornstars or porn producers. It comes from consumers, and in the case of IR porn, it is precisely because there is such a demand for 1st time IR that the industry has found this way to capitalize.
So be leery of moral grandstanding and preaching on this issue. Ultimately it condemns the very people who support IR in the first place. Before you point your finger over this issue you should understand how it has come to be in the first place. And it has nothing to do with hate. It's actually the opposite. It happens because people value it. It would be a whole different issue if the practice meant that IR scenes were devalued and worth less. But they are worth more. So it's highly ironic that people would be mad at this. The consumers say "This is worth more to us" and the industry responds by saying "Ok then, we will pay more to provide it!" And everyone wins.
If there is a victim in this, then it should be a case put forth by plaintiffs on behalf of producers. They are the ones being compelled to shell out extra money. But isn't it interesting how little we hear from them complaining about it? Maybe that's because, despite having to pay extra, in the tune of hundreds of even thousands of dollars more per scene, they are STILL profiting off it. Just look at the wildly successful Blacked business model. And notice no one complains about them. I wonder why. But I bet you that any of the critics of this practice, e.g. Riley Reid, would love to be on Blacked. In fact she has been on that site. But I highly doubt she's going to condemn them.

[Link]

Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 8:41AM

But remember there are only so many black male performers, meanwhile there are tons more white male performers. At least 5 times as many white male performers. Maybe 10 times as many. So even if every porn company recognized the value of IR (and most do), they cannot possibly shoot the majority of their content as IR because of the relatively limited talent pool. So it only figures that the vast majority of porn produced will feature all white talent. And it still makes enough money obviously to justify its production.
But given the obstacle of having to pay more for so many new females' first IR, the fact that it's being produced as much as we can only assume is possible should say that it's definitely profitable. I think it's safe to assume that IR is being produced at the quickest rate possible which means a new IR scene is being shot the moment the schedule of a black male talent is open.
But you tell us why you think Jules Jordan would pay Riley Reid 4 grand extra for her first IR? And that's just one example out of no doubt countless others. JJ and RR are not bad people.
And indeed, as has been pointed out by other commenters here, it's laughably hypocritical for some of the pornstars in the Twittersphere to be grandstanding on this issue, knowing many of them took extra pay for their first IR.
In the end, this is a lot of hot air and unearned moral superiority.
But as an IR fan, I would only hope that somehow the practice of rate-gouging for IR could be abolished. But as long as something is worth more, people will find ways to charge more. Isn't that the job of agents anyway? Why does no one mention them? Aren't they supposed to book the most profitable schedule that they can for the talent they represent? Isn't it their job to get porn companies to basically compete for the best offer? Won't that inevitably result in some price-gouging?
Just try and put yourself in the shoes of an agent. If you are representing the hottest new starlet out there, and companies are vying to get her first IR, are you going to go with the first offer just because? What if you stand to profit 3 grand, 4 grand or 5 grand extra by accepting the highest bid? If a company really really wants her first IR, isn't it your job to secure the best deal for her?
I worry that people kneejerk over this issue at face value, without putting themselves in the shoes of all parties involved. I honestly don't think this is such a easy issue to judge. Who is the bad guy? Who do you blame first? Don't the consumers ultimately dictate what practices are most profitable? Aren't agents, performers and producers only responding to demand?

[Link]

Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 8:45AM

wat

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 9:14AM

I don't think the most prominent black directors that come to mind are being discriminated against. The first three that come to mind are Alexander Devoe, Mimefreak, and LT.
Devoe parted ways with JJV saying that he just wanted to pursue other things outside of porn. No harm no foul. More power to him. I would definitely welcome him back though, as I preferred his Orgy Masters flicks to the ones that came afterward. I also liked his other flicks for JJV, including Dynamic Booty #4 (I mention this one a lot lately. Damn I miss Austin Taylor lol).
Mimefreak was one of several who parted ways with Elegant, but he's been having great success with his new brand ArchAngel, charting several top selling titles. I'm a big supporter of MF.
LT who goes by El_Tea on here also just charted with The Big Black Ass Movie.
I do not believe there's any conspiracy against them. If there was, why would Jules Jordan have made amends with Prince Yahshua, whose clashing with several others besides JJ was infamous? Prince even tweeted a giant FUCK YOU to AVN recently. lol. He's a bridge burner and highly volatile. I could see why a major company would hesitate partnering with him. And yet he's still getting work.
I think the industry is all too happy to partner with positive and professional black male talent, in front or behind the camera. But everyone cuts their own deal.
So in summation, I hope Devoe comes back if he wants to, and if he does I'm sure he'll find a home with a number of quality companies, or he could even start up his own.
And actually, I'm glad Mime parted with Elegant because now we have ArchAngel and that caters more to what I like. So it's been a good thing as far as I can tell. And if LT didn't part with Elegant also, we probably wouldn't have gotten Big Black Ass Movie, not on the same schedule anyway.
Plus we can't ignore the white directors who also had to part ways with bigs like Elegant Angel and JJV.
Speaking of which, I know someone who recently decided to go independent and is now enjoying great success, an an artist called The Pit . It was long overdue and I couldn't be happier for him. =)

[Link]

Draxxx
Senior Member

3831 Posts
2/07

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 9:39AM

Of course the producers aren't going to be happy that they have to pay more for anything. The less they pay the girls the more they keep for themselves. They don't like paying more but see it as a necessary evil and the cost of doing business. Those producers better than anyone know if the numbers/sales justify a girl's extra pay. And if the extra we're hearing about is any indication then those IR firsts, scenes, and showcases must be doing great business and very profitable for them because it's not like they are paying some girls an extra $500 dollars but thousands of dollars extra. If what Riley said is true and she got 4 grand to do her first IR then the producer/studio made a big profit from her doing it to justify her doing it. And the profit and justification remains high(er) if they still continue to do the same with girl after girl. If the extra pay wasn't worth it for the studio the extra pay practice would stop. If it wasn't worth it and there was no or not enough return on their investment they'd go under and be out of business. Instead the opposite is happening and more money is being thrown around.
And again, not every girl is worth so much and it's a mistake to pay some girls so much over their normal pay rate but the ones that are seem to be worth it in certain cases. The girls who don't want to charge more...that's great for them. They should do what works for them. For the ones who do want more or as much as they can get I totally think they should. Hollywood, music, comics, and entertainment in general is full of stories of talent being taken advantage of. Things are better in tv and movies now but there was a time the talent that made the studios so much money didn't get paid their true value. On those old sitcoms the actors/talent got paid a good rate to do those shows and movies but the studios made millions upon millions of their backs. Lots of stars have struggled in their later years while the studios continue to make tons of money from their work. Syndication, DVD sales, merchandize, etc...Bigwigs at the top who have very little to do with a project's success are making millions and the talent totally responsible gets close to nothing in comparison. Like I said things are better now but it took agents years to get their clients what they actually deserved. In music you constantly hear of hugely popular performers not living the type of life you'd expect because they are in a bad contract and the record label takes advantage of them because they were eager to sign any deal offered. Comics were filled with talent working on books that sold almost a million copies per issue and the company wouldn't give the talent responsible a measly 5 per page pay increase.
Porn is a much smaller medium. There are studios that struggle and go under. But there are some that do okay all things considered. If those studios can afford to pay a girl more for IR, anal, midgets or whatever and still be profitable they should. The girls in porn only get paid for one time for that scene. Yet that scene will make money from being on the site, DVD sales, PPV sales, being repackaged in compilations, sold to other companies, images used to direct people to sites, etc....Probably not millions for the studio/producer but it can continue to make money for them after the scene/movie is shot. People are still making money from Sasha Grey's porn work even though she's long gone. Shouldn't Sasha have made some of that money?
Something to think about instead of only looking at it as a skin color issue.

[Link]

Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 10:08AM

^ Good points. To the point about Sasha Grey's work still generating profit for the producers from years ago, I wonder if any pornstars negotiate for royalties. Surely some of the top names must be able to? Or is that only for Hollywood?

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fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 3:52PM

This thread is about IR but take IR out of the equation and think about a industry that was once worth billions going broke. Think about how porn consumers are affected by this. The last thing a porn consumer should do is see things from producers standpoint. They are the ones responsible for ruining the industry. Porn consists of a few major studios and several smaller ones, when the bigger companies start a trend it forces smaller ones to follow that is what happened when IR is a novelty or Black on Black unprofitable. It would be a problem if it were true but if it is not true then something should be done because it hurts the industry. Even though this is a message board where people come for entertainment as much as enlightenment popular opinion is still the most power force in business. If producers believe they can get away with force feeding what they are doing then they will keep doing it..consumers have to force change.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 5:04PM

^
You still have said nothing to back up your past claims yet. If you don't want to sound like a lone conspiracy nut chasing a non-existent conspiracy you should back up what you have said. "... [P]opular opinion is still the most power force in business, " is true but you have to do more than just make things up to change popular opinion.
Edited by - flash on 4/10/2016 5:04:48 PM

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BlackSix

All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
12377 Posts
9/07

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 7:01PM

Evil Angel stopped distributing Brian Pumper and Justin Slayer. Without EA's support their production rates went way down and I belive has pretty much stopped.
Pumper was let go because he shot a scene without having the proper tests for STDs or HIV in place.
Why Slayer and Stagliano parted is less clear, apparently Stagliano wasn't happy with the quality of some of Slayer's shooting but I'm not a hundred percent sure of that.
Recently I've seen some posters here say certain black male performers were run out of the industry for being rough or disrespectful towards the female performers. Not sure of the truth of any of that but the producers thing has some foundation in reality at least.
Not that I agree with his conspiracy theory or hilarious claim that the massive drop in porn production has to do with the lack of black-on-black porn instead of the obvious culprits, tubesites and downloading.
I do think the huge drop in profits has hurt black-on-black porn and black directors and producers more so than others.
First really heard and saw the effects of the downturn around 2008/2009. Not sure it was connected directly to the financial meltdown though as previously porn was considered recession proof.
Edited by - BlackSix on 4/10/2016 7:03:34 PM

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fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 7:52PM

I never said the downturn was because companies stopped shooting Black on Black. The point was there were several reasons for the downturn including the lack of diversity which lead to porn becoming basically all White with a shrinking White demographic. There is no way it can grow because the market is not there. I always said retaining actresses, get more consumer feedback, more diversity would improve the situation and it is up to consumers not producers.

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julesjordanvideo
JulesJordan.com

Professional Perverts
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Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 3:04PM

What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 4:54PM

^
And this ends the drama , LOL

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DiamondJackman
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Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 6:09PM

What Lex?

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DiamondJackman
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Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 6:10PM

Lol...no it doesn't.

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AcidReign23
Member

63 Posts
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Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 9:07PM

Jules still works with Lex and has another (awesome) installment of the Lex The Impaler series coming soon. He's obviously (subliminally) referring to Mandingo...
Mandingo wanted more money to continue shooting with Jules. I'm sure Mandingo saw how highly successful the Mandingo series were with Jules and wanted a pay raise. They couldn't on terms and Mandingo parted ways...
Now this doesn't mean they will never work together again. Fans have requested a gazillion times to Jules that they work together again and it sounds likes he is amendable to that if Mandingo wants to, but Mandingo strikes me as stubborn and has moved on for now.

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MimeFreak
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1819 Posts
2/14

Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 10:40PM

Awe man. Tell me about it.

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ghost88
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Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 11:22PM

I think Mandingo is the guy being talking about. How can someone speak about 1 but not the other? If you have no problem paying a chick who's been in the industry over 10 years, past her prime,to get her jungle fever on or the countless other chicks who get paid more, then it's a little hypocritical. I'm sure James Deen, Manuel Ferrara rates are higher than Mandingo's but it's ok for them to do it. Mandingo's "rate" wasn't based around skin color, he's just using his pull, and was probably getting paid less than what he deserved. He is one of the few blacks in the industry who has it and props to him. Everyone knows black men/women are paid lower than others. It's no secret, can't get mad when one ask for what they believe they deserve. That's totally different from"blacks aren't human, so I need more money to work with them."

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julesjordanvideo
JulesJordan.com

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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 12:09AM

I'm not referring to one specific person, its actually multiple people.....but in general when we call to book people of all types, we get the higher rate quotes.

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 1:34AM

So as it appears all performers either male or female , black or white actually charge more when they think there's more money to be made from the company they work with?
Higher rated companies are charged more than those thought as the less profitable ones
Is that what you mean?

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ghost88
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 1:49AM

^^ Well, I just don't see how multiple black guys can charge higher besides mandingo or lex. They are just sticks right? Easily replaceable. At 1 point mr. marcus was 1 of your main guys, he gets in trouble, you move on to the next right? James Deen gets in trouble, and number companies stop using him just like that. I never understood guys getting their own series. 1 of your main guys is prince yahshua(who is unwatchable for me) has 1. If he ask for more, just don't do it. He really has no power in my opinion. It's all about the girls he's fucking, not him. I just think the girls sell the movies, not the guys, and any money power handed to the male talent is giving to them by studios/directors/producers.
There's a ton of black male talent out there who get no work, that i have never seen work for jjv, and i'm sure can't charge more. Girls are different, there can be a lack of quality female talent out there available for IR, so you are kinda forced into paying them. I just compare the quality of girls other IR companies get to what "blacked" gets. It's not even close. The reason blacked is so popular is because they keep getting high demand dodgers for a big pay day. Peta Jesen is setting the IR world on fire today, the way Brett Rossi did a couple weeks ago. I think most black male talent out there is horrible, but as long they are shooting with hot girls, it doesn't matter to the average consumer. If you can get Alexis Texas, jesse jane, Kayden Kross, riley steele, ect..to touch a black guy, it's gonna sell regardless of the guy that you use. I just find it hard to believe that male talent charging higher rate can be compared to the way females are charging more for IR. Male talent is just to disposable for that to be the case.

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misspornUSA
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:12AM

When a large enough number of consumers want to see a pornstar fucked by a specific guy, that guy gets a series. If Prince gets his own movies it's because his name helps sell dvds. Isn't that obvious? Porn is a business. 9 times out of 10 the answer is going to be "'Cause $$$."

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fredgee
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:15AM

Black guys have a different style that is why they charge more..sure the company has a lot to do with it and so does demand but they are more than just sticks. Lex, Rico, Prince, Mandingo are different than the white guys in porn.

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Mister Fahrenheit

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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:19AM

^^ So naive misspornUSA. Obviously the reason things happen in porn is because of the individual whims of directors which typically run counter to demands of the market. Clearly, they are under the sway of the Illuminati.
Profit?! Don't make me laugh.

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misspornUSA
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:20AM

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LeyaFalcon
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 6:38AM

this is correct!

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DiamondJackman
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 7:00AM

ghost88 wrote:
I think Mandingo is the guy being talking about. How can someone speak about 1 but not the other? If you have no problem paying a chick who's been in the industry over 10 years, past her prime,to get her jungle fever on or the countless other chicks who get paid more, then it's a little hypocritical. I'm sure James Deen, Manuel Ferrara rates are higher than Mandingo's but it's ok for them to do it. Mandingo's "rate" wasn't based around skin color, he's just using his pull, and was probably getting paid less than what he deserved. He is one of the few blacks in the industry who has it and props to him. Everyone knows black men/women are paid lower than others. It's no secret, can't get mad when one ask for what they believe they deserve. That's totally different from"blacks aren't human, so I need more money to work with them."
Click to expand

Exactly!

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DiamondJackman
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 7:02AM

BUT IT'S NOT RACIAL WHEN LEX, OR MANDINGO DO IT. THEY ARE NOT SAYING PAY ME MORE FOR FUCKING WHITE GIRLS ONLY. THEY WANT MORE MONEY PERIOD.
WHY COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES?

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 8:37AM

^
first things first, stop yelling at me!
according to the netiquette an all capital message is equivalent to yelling , so don't!
Secondly, are you really stating that all those black guys don't know it's going to be IR when JJV hires them?
Can you please lead me to a Black on Black movie from JJ? If any when was it shot?
So the hell isn't racial, they know exactly what it is going to be and they charge more.
with your parameter we could also say the girl at Blacked/Tushy aren't charging more for IR ,we could say they don't know after all , it could be an all whites for Tushy, couldn't it?
So I'm comparing fruit to fruit , apples and oranges are still fruits.
but MOST OF ALL , that wasn't what I really meant, I said that a performer would charge more when the scene is worth more we all know JJV are among the best sellers out there , his products are of high quality , possibly they take more time to be made then the average ones hence performing time wise JJV are charged more.
Plus there were those claiming that black male performers aren't paid more for IR and that they should on this very thread, we just were informed that they actually do charge more and they really are paid more.

Edited by - LCF on 4/13/2016 8:39:44 AM

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Melvyn
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2797 Posts
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 1:31PM

BBC COMMANDS RESPECT!
YOU WILL PAY MORE FOR IT AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!

Or as Lex Steele once told me "Shut up and eat your cereal!" (funny story behind that)
lmao I love you dudes. Jules, Mime, Lex. You are all titans. I love all you dudes's work and wish you continued success. Let's keep it real.
I'm sure we would all agree it would be nice if there could be some type of regulation against fee-gouging for 1st time IR, such that the races never affect prices. But the simple fact of the matter is it is not performers or producers who decide what a product is worth. It is determined by consumers.
And so it is foolish to point the finger at them as if they are the bad guys. They vie and compete in bidding wars to secure exclusive rights to scenes featuring popular stars performing popular sex.
Where people misconstrue this variable valuation of interracial is in thinking that a performer is charging more, or a producer is paying more, on account of disrespect of contempt or even worse, outright racist hatred. They think because it's not all flat-rates of equity, then it's ethically problematic and someone is being victimized or marginalized.
I suppose we would need a Johnny Cochran to explain this one. But honestly fam, it's not that complicated, and the truth is very au contraire to what the objectors' grievances are presuming.
It has nothing to do with discrimination against black men having sex with white women. It's discrimination FOR them. Their value hasn't been degraded. They've been upgraded.
The only issue is, how do the black male performers get a piece of that action? Well, 1st-time exclusive bonus pay naturally goes to whomever is doing something for the first time. But virtually all the black male performers in the game have done white females already. That's just how it works out when the majority of females are white. So as I said before, it's no surprise the black male talent doesn't get any bonus pay for doing something for the 1st time.
However I would have to assume that they do get properly compensated to the tune that they are valued in the game, which I could only speculate, but I feel safe to assume is generally a little higher than the average white male performer.
In the end, things pretty much work out about as well as possible in a free market. It isn't perfect. Nothing ever is.
As an IR fan, I have selfish reasons to prefer that the cost of producing IR and including 1st time IR was reduced a lot so that guys like Jules Jordan, MimeFreak, and Lanksy can make even more of it. That would be great.
I'm sure it would also be great for producers if the cost of hiring Lex Steele or Mandingo was reduced to standard male rates. But that comes at those guys' expense. We do not have a right to arbitrate like that. Everything isn't going to be equal all the time.
So please, take in the wisdom of the legend Bruce Lee, which was brought to my attention by a tweet on India Summer's timeline:
bruce lee.jpg

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Melvyn
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12/12

Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 2:07PM

No. First off, he did not say "guy" he said "guys."

You mean like how this entire debate has been raging forever by only addressing females getting a 1 time bonus pay for their 1st IR? But how almost no one ever brings up the fact that so many popular black male performers also make more? I have pointed this out several times but it never seems to register.

How is he being hypocritical? He's only responded with the reality of the greater picture. Not everything is equal, and just because there is disparity does not mean it's unethical. Sometimes the most ethical position requires disparity. But disparity based on what? One aspect? There are always various aspects that determine market value. This is what agents spend their entire livelihoods determining.

Eh. Maybe. But how can you be so sure? Have you tried hiring them? Have you tried hiring Lex?

Ehhh... Well maybe not, but surely the argument that his skin color is working against him sort of falls apart when, you know, his stage name is MANDINGO. He's celebrated and admired for representing, among other things, a famous Nubian warrior tribe. The economic power of those haters out there who condemn interracial and harbor bigoted and racist views against blacks, particularly against black men, is easily trumped by the economic power of those who support and even favor him for all that he is.

citation needed that supports your "probable" suggestion.

Who has what? Achieved success-- success above and beyond the average male performers?
What about Jack Napier?
What about Sean Michaels?
What about Shane Diesel?
What about Lex Steele?
What about Justin Slayer?
What about Rico Strong?
What about Richard Mann?
These guys have all had movies where their names were in the title. And the list goes on. You act as if the black male in porn who is successful is the exception to the rule. I would argue the opposite. The black male performer who fails in porn is the exception. And all those names I listed could easily have negotiated for rates that were above the average male rate. Maybe not all as much as Mandingo, but still surely more than the typical hired stickman.

Do they now? Citation needed.

In porn, everyone gets what they deserve. This is not an occupation of necessity. It's a luxury. No one really needs this to live. To succeed more in entertainment, you have to entertain more people. If not that many people are entertained, well good luck to you.

And that is totally different from anything anyone has discussed here. It's not even on topic. No one supports or defends that mentality whatsoever. You misunderstand this issue entirely. It's been broken down so many times before. We'll try again. If someone is willing to pay a little more for something, then why is someone wrong to sell it for a little more? Who is the bad guy here? Who suffers? Who benefits? If everyone benefits, how is this bad?
This is not like the Schkreli case where he gouged the price of medicine 6000%. Nobody is out there saying they would only do IR if they are paid

Well perhaps almost no one...
Edited by - Melvyn on 4/13/2016 2:12:59 PM

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
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Posted - Apr 13 2016 : 4:21PM

As long as viewers clamor for the first anything, there will be more charge to do it. Therefore there could never be such a contract. If people stopped caring about first IRs then they wouldn't cost extra anymore. So on for all other acts that cost more.

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Janitor
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Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 7:09AM

Quote of the week.

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DiamondJackman
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Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 2:21PM

^That's no 'quote of the week', that is a statement that distracts from the issue of white/asian/latin/black females charges higher rates to work with black men. #redherring

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 3:52PM

^
Yeah black men charging more for shooting with white girls , really distracts from the issue, it doesn't fit , at all with the whole drama many created out there

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Joey Numbers
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Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 4:38PM

^Where did anyone imply black talent charge more to work with white women? Jules Jordan said people, including black talent, quote higher rates to work with his studio.
Edited by - joey numbers on 4/14/2016 4:45:48 PM

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 4:51PM

^
He only shoots IR when he hires black guys so...
Same for Mimefreak , he didn't shoot any black on Black movie so far , so again it's going to be IR when he hires a black guy
You think they don't know this?

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 4:55PM

Anyway as I already stated I don't think they charge more because the lady is white they do that because when it's IR there's more money to be made and they want a share of it, the very same thing some white stars do at least for their first scene, the male guys do that for every scene...

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