Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day (page 41)

Author	Post
Mass Facialties Deactivated User "Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13	Posted - May 24 2016 : 2:57AM misspornUSA wrote: ^From a viewer's perspective that's the problem with the Blacked contract system. A performer shoots her first IR for Blacked and then is exclusive to Blacked for half a year, so unless Lansky shoots her multiple times during that period and doesn't sit on those scenes for very long we won't see see her in other IR scenes for sometime. That said, that strategy is part of what keeps Blacked competitive. Click to expand Bingo. What's good for Blacked isn't necessarily good for IR altogether. [Link]
chessmaster Member 768 Posts 6/12	Posted - May 24 2016 : 3:53PM blkknight1 wrote: This discussion lately has reminded me of an old South Park episode where the guys formed a rock group but refused to play because people were illegally downloading the music anyway. Anyway in the episode there was a scene were they were doing a news report and they said a poll was done to see if people would stop downloading because of the refusal. The result we 1% yes 2% no, and 97% said who the hell is MOOP(being the name of the guys band). Now I would have to believe that the same thing would apply to a performer waiting to shoot IR. If a poll were taken and people asked if Pornstar X's policy on IR was to wait for a bit would you still watch her scenes. There would be a contingent that says Yes there would be one that says No, but I willing to bet that the vast majority would say who they hell is pornstar X. Reading the above posts on the likes of Sheridan Love my initial reaction was WHO? Another thing is that it seems for those who are playing the waiting the game there are some who are out promoting/hyping it even before a deal has been struck to film it. It's kinda like the whole Brazzers Madison Ivy anal situation, this could lead to some frustration and anger among IR fans. If you are going to film the scene and are looking for a the best deal would it not wise to handle it behind the scene first get the deal done and then start hyping it up. One last thing I cant recall if this has been brought up in terms of first IR and how lucrative they can be to the parties involved. Just my personal opinion first anything be it overall scene/IR or whatever are usually underwhelming and hardly ever memorable unless they are the performers only scene. So could it be the reason that first IR are also popular because after waiting for a while you are never sure of it is the performer's last. Click to expand I agree 100%. 90 percent of these girls mentioned wanting more money I have no clue who the fuck they are. I think it's a bit arrogant but maybe that's just me. Edit: also, I still see no reason why every pornstar feels they have to wait to fuck a black guy on camera other than potentially* more money or potentially "pacing" their career. They can't all command a small fortune just* to have sex with a black guy on camera. Edited by - Chessmaster on 5/24/2016 4:02:36 PM [Link]
Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User 1102 Posts 2/15	Posted - May 24 2016 : 5:00PM Anyone want to place bets as to when this thread gets to 100 pages with no resolution? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 24 2016 : 6:50PM ^ Hah. Well I do think it's been productive in that people are now realizing - GASP! - there might be more to this practice than bigotry. So hopefully that quells some of the moral outrage on the issue. It's a business move, and all business inherently involves risk. For some, it's worth it, and for others it is not. I think the best irony of this is that people with strong indignant feelings about how IR is portrayed in "the industry" (really too broad for anyone to make any definitive glib summation), seem to have great respect for Blacked and praise their direction. Yet Blacked happens to be the company spending the most to get IR exclusives. I asked before, but I don't recall seeing any answers: is there any other company out there likely spending more on IR exclusives that Blacked? It's just one of those things. You can't love it so much but then be mad about what it takes to get it. You could say, well the ends do not justify the means, and while I do praise the overall product, the principle stands. But then principle is standing on too shaky foundation for moral outrage. But I can't hiss loud enough next time I read some interview with a pornstar trying to seem righteous on this issue, making blanket statements about "the industry." It's like, "oh do piss off." There's always been companies producing decent IR without any degrading aspects, without anything deviating from the norm for vanilla porn. And yes, there have been brands that totally play up the stereotypes and "blaxploitation" angle. But even in those exploitative IR pornos, there's never been a monolithic narrative. Some of them play into the "black beast" stereotype. In fact that was even the title of a long running series. I remember it had an amazing scene between Avy Scott and Mandingo, circa 2004. What's interesting about that series is that, despite the title, the actual porn was standard gonzo with no over racial tones. So, you can't really judge most of these IR pornos based on their cover or title. Mostly they are only ostensibly exploitative, but the actual content of these pornos was largely neutral. Meanwhile other brands play into the "milquetoast wimpy white cuck" stereotype. I honestly think as much of the IR porn I've seen which does exploit racial themes has been stigmatizing toward white guys as it has black guys. But the point is, there's never been any one way you could try and paint "the industry" on the whole. And from what I've observed over the last 15 years, most of the "stereotypical" direction portraying black males as animalistic or pushing the N-word has been created or spurred on by black male talent, e.g. the Jake Steed "Black Monsters" series, and HushHush's "Abominable Black Man" and "Blackzilla" etc. The reason I don't object to any of that is because it's just over the top porn fantasies, and almost all of it is self-aware. They were just having fun and I think it's insulting to audiences and IR fans to say grown adults can't tell these are not documentaries. Ultimately it should be recognized that we can, and indeed have had, various treatments of IR with radically different narratives in porn at the same time. They can co-exist. I remember one porno, it was one of those over the top sex romps from Jake Steed, where Lex was dressed up as a Pharaoh as if he was a statue at an exhibit. Some cute brunette girl was timidly "inspecting" the "statue." She wanted to get close up and lift his skirt and see what was under it. Of course he comes to life and sex ensues "with spicy results!" I think at a point during the scene Lex intones "Once black, never back." Is this heinous hate speech? Or is this just a fun and creative, if goofy, scene? It looked like they were just having fun. And why shouldn't it be fun? [Link]

whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 24 2016 : 7:40PM ^^ It'll get locked well before it gets to a hundred pages. I wouldn't be surprised if it got locked before it gets to 50. [Link]
ninja1 Senior Member 2939 Posts 1/08	Posted - May 24 2016 : 9:07PM I predict some troll will (re)appear and cause once-semi-cool heads to overheat, leading to threadlock and possibly collateral deactivations. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:13PM chessmaster wrote: also, I still see no reason why every pornstar feels they have to wait to fuck a black guy on camera other than potentially* more money or potentially "pacing" their career. They can't all command a small fortune just* to have sex with a black guy on camera. Click to expand I've pointed out several times that an increasing number of pornstars are shooting IR as their first "first" and not waiting very long. As far as I can tell we are still far from reaching a point in which most women enter the industry with IR on their card, but I do think that Blacked has changed the game when it comes to how open new talent are to shooting first IR early. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:33PM ^^ and ^^^ I doubt either of you expected it to last this long. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/24/2016 11:43:21 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:40PM Canadian_Cindy wrote: Anyone want to place bets as to when this thread gets to 100 pages with no resolution? Click to expand IR is moving steadily on its way to replacing anal as the go to b/g first. If that trend continues we'll have a lot less to talk about. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:58PM ^^ The mods have done a pretty good job in both of the contentious IR related threads in Porn Pool of warning and banning people before we get to the point of thread locks. [Link]
Gore Gore Girl Doctor of the Erotic Arts 7238 Posts 1/09	Posted - May 27 2016 : 3:42PM Semi-relevant tweets from Janice Griffith: Note the responses that ask if she hates sex with black men or thinks IR sex is disgusting. Sigh. Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 5/27/2016 3:43:43 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 27 2016 : 3:53PM ^Did she really think that no one was going to market or categorize that scene as interracial and first IR just because she doesn't believe in the category? [Link]
ghost88 Member 615 Posts 9/13	Posted - May 27 2016 : 5:31PM ^ Yeah she can't be serious. There's a chance she's a one and done unless she gets paid good again. She will use the label as the reason. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 27 2016 : 5:50PM ^I also think that one and done is a real possibility. [Link]

Dat_1_Dude Senior Member 1779 Posts 1/15	Posted - May 27 2016 : 7:09PM ^^^^ one and done for sure, weird timing since most one and done's do it on the verge of retiring. Seems like she waited for feedback from a certain group of high paying clientele or something and is now trying to walk it back and "protect her image." I've seen other holdouts use a similar excuse, but they did it with guys like Karlo Karrera, Cuban Ramon, Alex Jones, and Stallion where they could flip flop on whether they wanted the company to label it as interracial or not for their own benefit. She knew who the guy was, what the scene was, and of course I doubt JJV did the "book them for one category, label it different in post-production" scheme on her. I mean, it is not rare for girls to just go on an IR drought. For one, most girls will claim that "they dont get booked for it", two, some girls will stay away for awhile for one reason(likely a bad shoot) or another and return like Lexi Belle, August Ames, and Jayden James, three, the market demand has made holding out more profitable for some of the more established holdouts. However, not many have went on such a self-aggrandizing tirade after the deed was done for the purpose of denouncing the scene altogether. We already know the undertones of interracial and such, but for me, it just helps me identify and filter scenes faster when searching through movies or scene catalogs. There is so much white-on-white porn, I would hate to have search through all of it to find interracial when I'm not looking for an all-vanilla movie. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 27 2016 : 8:24PM ^^^^ I get having an issue with the way the industry portrays scene between black and non-black talent. I totally understand it. But you cannot get away from the fact that interracial is a widely used category outside of its issues, and that any scene between a black male and a non-black female is going to be tagged as interracial when it comes to large databases like AEBN. There's just no getting away from that. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 5/27/2016 8:24:31 PM [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 28 2016 : 12:48AM misspornUSA wrote: ^I also think that one and done is a real possibility. Click to expand lmao I notice that pornstars who feel very strongly and indignant about really retarded shit don't last long. That's just people in general though. Very fickle and flippant behavior suggests lack of commitment. If more important things aren't occupying a person's mind, watch out. I will say I don't fault her taking exception to it in principle, but I cannot sympathize with that level of moral outrage. Yes, technically "interracial" category in porn is problematic. But it hasn't anything to do with oppressing or discriminating against minorities. It's actually discriminating in favor of them, black men at least. These guys are kings. The IR fans do not disparage or look down on them. And the industry has literally ZERO interest in suppressing IR. It's actually incentivizing for them to promote it - exactly why they do push novelties like "1st time IR" etc. It would be one thing if the reason the category existed was to marginalize and discriminate against and belittle black performers. There would be a case for moral outrage if IR was used as a label to blacklist people. But this isn't the reality. This is why time and again I have to express dismay when someone is posing as a proponent of social justice, when their proscriptions are so misguided as to miss the point entirely - like a batter swinging for the fences totally whiffing and spinning into a circle, twisting up their feet and falling over. It's just like "calm down, child" lol. I get it. You don't like labels. "labels are wrong man." Yes, we are all part of the same race, the human race. I totally support that notion. But some of us (a LOT of us) like seeing hot non-black chicks (along with hot black chicks) taking BBC. If there is something particularly wrong with that, then how could you explain your objection to interracial couples who happen to be particularly attracted to their partner's race? There's nothing harmful or socially deleterious going on here. If there is, I'd like to know what. [Link]
Zy28 Deactivated User 251 Posts 2/12	Posted - May 28 2016 : 1:14AM Melvyn wrote: ^ Hah. Well I do think it's been productive in that people are now realizing - GASP! - there might be more to this practice than bigotry. So hopefully that quells some of the moral outrage on the issue. It's a business move, and all business inherently involves risk. For some, it's worth it, and for others it is not. Click to expand No it's pretty much rooted in racism. Which should be clear given that it's based on the notion that working with Black talent is so "different" from other b/g scenes that it requires bribery to convince girls to do it. And stating that it's a "business" move doesn't eliminate the offensiveness of it, given that behavior done in the name of "business" involves some of basest human behavior as people seek to acquire money at any cost. As for the logic of asking for more money for such scenes, it doesn't really make much sense, given that unless the women do 5+ such scenes, which they won't, being paid $2000 or even $3000 for one scene doesn't benefit them much financially. Edited by - Zy28 on 5/28/2016 3:06:24 AM [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 28 2016 : 3:13AM ^ Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth. [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - May 28 2016 : 6:53AM How come Kylie Sinner hasn't been requested? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:15AM Zy28 wrote: Melvyn wrote: ^ Hah. Well I do think it's been productive in that people are now realizing - GASP! - there might be more to this practice than bigotry. So hopefully that quells some of the moral outrage on the issue. It's a business move, and all business inherently involves risk. For some, it's worth it, and for others it is not. Click to expand No it's pretty much rooted in racism. Which should be clear given that it's based on the notion that working with Black talent is so "different" from other b/g scenes that it requires bribery to convince girls to do it. Click to expand Racism that favors black males. You keep leaving that out. The scenes are worth more and hence females want to be paid more, because people favor seeing them with black men. You arguing this is negative, as if the scenes have more value and therefore cost more, on account of people hating black guys is preposterous. That's like saying the reason anal costs more and it's so popular is because people hate it. It makes no fucking sense. Zy28 wrote: And stating that it's a "business" move doesn't eliminate the offensiveness of it, given that behavior done in the name of "business" involves some of basest human behavior as people seek to acquire money at any cost. Click to expand Sorry Zy but you have to realize, some things are simply not equal. Women make far more money than men do in fashion and in porn. Why? Because everyone loves women - well except for about 2% of the population. But 98% of men and women alike love women's bodies. Our eyes are magnetized to them, their bodies, their faces disproportionately. It's nowhere close to 1:1. So females in porn make 2-3 times as much as men, and even many times more beyond that at the highest levels. It's certainly unequal. Where's the outrage? We're not talking about a 10% difference. We're talking about 200%, 300%, even 500% more for women. Porn values big dicks. A lot of black guys have big dicks. Guys like Lex, Shane Diesel, and Mandingo and many other examples all make a lot of money because people want to see the big dick. But not all guys are hung like horses. It's not fair! It's not equal! This is highly offensive! Why should the big dick guys get all the pretty women in porn AND be paid more for it? To that end, pretty people in media make more money than ugly people. Isn't that unequal and unfair and offensive? Get a grip. We've already been over this. Getting offended over things which virtually nobody has control over is madness. People like what they like. If people like something a lot, then it is probably going to have higher value that things they don't like that much. Welcome to the business world. Zy28 wrote:As for the logic of asking for more money for such scenes, it doesn't really make much sense, given that unless the women do 5+ such scenes, which they won't, being paid $2000 or even $3000 for one scene doesn't benefit them much financially. Edited by - Zy28 on 5/28/2016 3:06:24 AM Click to expand Yes, I agree as I've already established this ad nauseum. It doesn't change the fact that IR scenes are worth more, particularly 1st IR. So if they are worth more, why should we not expect the female to want her share? It is a gamble how long a female waits to get what she thinks is equitable remuneration for granting any of her 1st scenes to. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:26AM whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth. Click to expand Exactly. We've been over this before too. He should understand by now. If IR was not in fact worth more, then no one in their right mind would ever pay more for it. But producers do all the time. How would it be a sound investment to pay extra for something which is not worth extra? Let's forget the "racism" red herring. You know who likes seeing 1st time IRs? Black guys. They love it. It's one of their favorite things, if not THE favorite thing in porn. So if it's racist, don't forget to condemn all those black fans of IR porn. But seriously, how could it be racist? Even black females love seeing a white girl get drilled by BBC for the first time. I remember a interview where this black female performer said it turns her on. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:11AM misspornUSA wrote: ^Did she really think that no one was going to market or categorize that scene as interracial and first IR just because she doesn't believe in the category? Click to expand I'm guessing she had agreement of some kind with them [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:45AM ^She didn't produce the scene, so I doubt it. [Link]

LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:54AM ^ some kind of : I'll accept the scene but it must not be marketed as "first IR" nor labeled IR at all , just sex They agreed but didn't respect their word could be? [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 28 2016 : 12:35PM ^If she had such a deal, it wasn't with AEBN. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 28 2016 : 7:01PM ^ The deal would have been with whomever shot the scene (Jules Jordan, I think). [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:08PM ^Yep, which brings me back to my question: Did she really think that no one was going to market or categorize that scene as interracial and first IR just because she doesn't believe in the category? [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:24PM ^ Did you really think no one would try and turn this thread into yet another typical IR shitshow, because you didn't want it to be? But to respond to your question, if she was attempting to make a principled stand, (and the context certainly indicates that) does it matter if she thought it would be categorized that way or not? Edited by - murdock on 5/28/2016 9:28:12 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:55PM The back and forth that occurred between murdock and I earlier in the thread nearly got it locked. Because of that, I stopped interacting with murdock and have no plans to change that. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/28/2016 9:56:45 PM [Link]
ghost88 Member 615 Posts 9/13	Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:03PM Melvyn wrote: whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth. Click to expand Exactly. We've been over this before too. He should understand by now. If IR was not in fact worth more, then no one in their right mind would ever pay more for it. But producers do all the time. How would it be a sound investment to pay extra for something which is not worth extra? Let's forget the "racism" red herring. You know who likes seeing 1st time IRs? Black guys. They love it. It's one of their favorite things, if not THE favorite thing in porn. So if it's racist, don't forget to condemn all those black fans of IR porn. But seriously, how could it be racist? Even black females love seeing a white girl get drilled by BBC for the first time. I remember a interview where this black female performer said it turns her on. Click to expand I don't know how it's worth more. If that was the case brazzers, naughty america, bangbros, ect....would be jumping at the chance to shoot first IR if they were worth so much. Brazzers/Naughty America could easily afford it, but why do they refuse to do it? It's only blacked going after these women in droves, others companies only do it here and there. Producers do not do it all the time. Dogfart refuses to pay more for first IR, if it were worth it they would do it. Chicks like rachel starr says she will do it for the right price, but there is a reason companies are refusing to give her that price, not worth it. Gracie glam to Alexis texas still haven't done IR because their price hasn't been met. If first IR was worth so much every single company would shoot IR at least half the time, but they mainly focus on white on white because it's worth more than first IR will ever be. Lets be real, most people will download these scenes for free anyway, so it's money wasted. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:20AM ^ Yeah I've wondered that myself. I suspect the explanation is pretty simple. Brazzers established itself as very vanilla for such a long time, that deviating from that always invited backlash. Remember people have commented saying the forum for their members was pretty racist, or at least it tolerated a lot of hateful speech on it before they decided to clean it up with some moderation in more recent years. It's why I don't really judge them too harshly, since they've taken steps to pursue IR more in recent years and clean up their message boards. Still, it's not enough IR to entice me as a consumer. So for a lot of consumers, brand recognition is critical, and for those particular brands it may be too little too late to really capitalize on IR. I don't believe it's ever too late, but I think in the case of Brazzers, they'd be better off launching a independent all-IR site. I do believe it would be quite successful if they rebranded it. But then a lot of consumers would say, why isn't this part of the whole Brazzers package? I'm sure they could afford either option. Personally I would sooner subscribe to an all-IR site than Brazzers, unless they could produce at least 6 IR scenes per month. Additional note: credit Jules Jordan for presenting her 1st IR how she wanted, and not advertising it on his site as "Her 1st IR." I'm not sure how that worked out for him, but he's evidently honored that request. Edited by - Melvyn on 5/29/2016 10:27:14 AM [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:48AM Question, was AEBN consulted about how they can advertise this beforehand? And how did they present this, in a scene description? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:56AM Actually, I'm curious how AEBN is advertising her 1st IR at all when we don't know what movie this scene is even for. What are they trying to sell? The individual scene without any movie entry? Huh? Can we get some links ppl? [Link]

blkknight1 Member 707 Posts 10/09	Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:57PM ^Janice Griffith one of our favorite spinners The blog post comes off as a totally praising piece in fact the only thing mentioned about the scene was this one line. "Coming up soon, Janice takes on the big black cock. Her first interracial scene was shot with the hugely hung Flash Brown for Jules Jordan Video." The way she reacted I was expecting sometime much more nefarious on AEBN's part. DiamondJackman wrote: How come Kylie Sinner hasn't been requested? Click to expand She retired 6 months ago [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 30 2016 : 8:48PM Seems like she is making a bigger deal out of it than they are. In effect she is drawing more attention to it. IDK how many people normally read AEBN blog entries. I know it never occurred to me. We just use it for shopping for deals and seeing what's new. I do read the entries and reviews here because that's what this community is all about. But AEBN is just a vendor. What's funny is nobody objects to the item descriptions on the boxes of these flicks. "Now this petite white treat is about to get her pussy punished!" "Innocent girl anally abused!" "It's time to dominate these freaky sluts!" "Watch as these slutty bitches get tamed!" etc... Take away the 1st time IR, nothing more than a technical aspect, and producers are still free to give graphic dehumanizing descriptions of wanton carnality which is pretty much the norm. Edited by - Melvyn on 5/30/2016 8:49:36 PM [Link]
Dread Senior Member Latex and boobs 5085 Posts 3/07	Posted - May 30 2016 : 10:41PM I find the whole Janice Griffith thing funny because she's indian...so every scene of hers technically is IR. Plus it was like 2 tweets about it anyway. ----Dread's Twitter---- [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 31 2016 : 12:55AM ^ Yeah but nobody really objects to all the other interracial combinations not being labeled IR. They only object to the way it's used to designate including black performers. And even then, it seems to not be consistent in that we almost never hear anyone complain about white male with black female being regarded as interracial. Seems people only take exception when it's involving black males, and this pertains to objectors who may be pro or anti-interracial. So the way I see it, the only way you can logically and correctly argue this issue is not to object to the existence of labels which have a beneficial purpose for consumers, but to want greater specificity in the IR label. We don't need less. We need more. The way we have BG or BBG or BGG labels, IR should have abbreviations for which races. And it shouldn't be too hard to adopt these labels/tags since most IR fans are already using them, e.g. WM/BF = white male, black female. That seems to come up a lot as a designation because many IR fans need it to help them find exactly what they are looking for, as most IR involves black male with other female. I think I've seen way more WM/BF labels because the standard of black male + white female is so common, we pretty much assume that's what IR will be designating. People could criticize this saying it's too cluttered, but how is it anymore cluttered than longer labels like "threesome" or "compilation" or "creampie"? We could just say IRhm/af for hispanic male with asian female. It's going to be fewer characters than many categories already out there. IRwm/bf = white male + black female. I think in the future, vendors should make more use of such sub-genre tags. You can have your general category list, e.g. amateur, MILF, teen, anal, IR, etc. and then when you click the IR category, you can specify in a dropdown list if you wish to further specify. This is the most basic convention that any online retailers use. Wal-mart, Target, Amazon, NewEgg, etc. As a content creator, I find it helps to add tags to posts because it makes it easier for people to find what they are looking for. [Link]
Zy28 Deactivated User 251 Posts 2/12	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 12:22AM Dread wrote: I find the whole Janice Griffith thing funny because she's indian...so every scene of hers technically is IR. Plus it was like 2 tweets about it anyway. ----Dread's Twitter---- Click to expand From the perspective of the porn industry though, only two group pairings merit mention: Black and everyone else. Which is obviously rooted in racism, but also undermines the argument that the category of IR exists to help with consumers finding the movies they want, since it's not used for other racial pairings, such as Asian/white, Asian/Latino, Latino/White, etc.. Only Black + insert group merits the label. As for Janice, I'm glad she finally decided to do such a scene, because previously she complained about the racism of the category itself and the way such scenes were advertised, instead of doing a scene herself and making sure it was advertised and produced without being offensive. Edited by - Zy28 on 6/1/2016 12:37:07 AM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 12:53AM ^Is it your opinion that a market exists for "Asian/white, Asian/Latino, Latino/White, etc.." as specific categories to the extent that such a market exists for bm/wf or even wm/bf? Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/1/2016 12:54:13 AM [Link]
sh_rock Member we the people in order to form a more perfect union... 518 Posts 12/03	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 1:54AM in all this talk about holding out on doing scenes with black men there is one point that has really yet to be made. no matter what reasons one gives for one not doing IR and/or whether or not it is rooted in racism, there are REAL PEOPLE who are victims of this practice. let's be mindful of that. [Link]
sh_rock Member we the people in order to form a more perfect union... 518 Posts 12/03	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 2:00AM Melvyn wrote: Zy28 wrote: Melvyn wrote: Racism that favors black males. Click to expand so what was the logic behind that statement? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 3:54AM sh_rock wrote: Melvyn wrote: Zy28 wrote: Melvyn wrote: Racism that favors black males. Click to expand so what was the logic behind that statement? Click to expand That logic is that said "racism" is not racism. Unless the initial argument was that it's racism that is good for black males. Which sorta contradicts the definition. This "discrimination" is just the preferences of consumers. Some discriminate against it because they don't like seeing black males in porn. Even that in itself isn't racist in any moral or meaningful sense. But even if we grant that it is racism on their part for preferring not to see black males in porn, the majority of people discriminating are doing so in favor of black males in porn. So how is it a problem for them when it favors them? If anyone is being discriminated against in an unfavorable way when it comes to the topic of interracial, it's Asian men. Practically non-existent in porn. People would say black women, but there's an overflowing abundance of black women in porn compared to Asian men. But I don't see how anyone has an argument when they're trying to stick up for dudes who are eating good off the system as it is. Black men are #1 in IR porn. They rule that domain, and not just that, but even on the overall bestsellers list. They are probably the 2nd most in-demand demographic of race+gender in the whole industry, 2nd only to white women. So ironically, the "racism" argument sorta falls apart with IR. The industry has a major category, which while it does not specifically pertain exclusively to black guys, it does almost exclusively favor them. I would say less than 10% of all IR flicks feature white guys. Once in a blue moon a studio will produce a white male + black female porno, but they just don't sell as much. Coincidentally I came across some guys on Twitter giving Layna Landry grief for shooting with Blacked, and she said she was also told white male + black female doesn't sell as much. https://twitter.com/Excelsion/status/724626942109069313 I think it's pretty clear. Now given that the industry is dominated by big bad white male racist scum, why would they lie and say that IR porn with white guys doesn't sell as much? If they were racist and trying to cheat the system to favor them, wouldn't they be trying to sell the fabricated notion that it's IR with black male + white female which does not sell? You would think if they were practicing racism in the industry, and since it's white guys who supposedly run everything, wouldn't they be trying to push white male + black female a lot more? Wouldn't they try to push white guys as the most popular males in IR? But that's far from the case. The only color that matters to 99% of folks in business is green. If black male + white female didn't honestly sell so much, then that's surely a helluva lot of money they are pouring down the drain investing in it. If there was more money to be had with white guys in IR, I'm pretty sure the white guys running most of the companies and doing most of the directing would be all too eager to shoot it themselves. Edited by - Melvyn on 6/1/2016 4:05:38 AM [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 4:19AM sh_rock wrote: in all this talk about holding out on doing scenes with black men there is one point that has really yet to be made. no matter what reasons one gives for one not doing IR and/or whether or not it is rooted in racism, there are REAL PEOPLE who are victims of this practice. let's be mindful of that. Click to expand Yeah, but you should also keep in mind that's no deeper than people who are opposed to interracial couples and would naturally frown on interracial porn. This includes all races. There's people in every group who think they are the victims when they see people of their race dating outside of it. Now, to my mind that is racism in effect. But you were saying just think of it in terms of who feels victimized. They will tell you they aren't racist, that they don't view any race as morally superior or inferior. They just don't approve of race mixing. It's a strange view to reconcile, but no matter what you or I say, there will always be people who adhere strongly to racial identity. There's plenty of white guys and black women who would lament seeing standard IR porn of black guys with white women, and they voice their views sometimes from a hateful place, but sometimes from a place of hurt and defensiveness. You've probably heard people refer to "our women" or "our men." They think in racially possessive terms about the other gender within their race. I believe it is wrong to think this way, but if you want to try and explain to them how they're looking at things wrong, they could say you are trying to "invalidate their experience" or some other touchy-feely soft-science sociology major woo-woo mumbo jumbo. But I do from time to time come across some people who object to IR and they don't seem hateful just hurt and defensive. It doesn't make me angry. It makes me feel sorry for them. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 8:41AM Zy28 wrote: Melvyn wrote: ^ Hah. Well I do think it's been productive in that people are now realizing - GASP! - there might be more to this practice than bigotry. So hopefully that quells some of the moral outrage on the issue. It's a business move, and all business inherently involves risk. For some, it's worth it, and for others it is not. Click to expand No it's pretty much rooted in racism. Which should be clear given that it's based on the notion that working with Black talent is so "different" from other b/g scenes that it requires bribery to convince girls to do it. And stating that it's a "business" move doesn't eliminate the offensiveness of it, given that behavior done in the name of "business" involves some of basest human behavior as people seek to acquire money at any cost. As for the logic of asking for more money for such scenes, it doesn't really make much sense, given that unless the women do 5+ such scenes, which they won't, being paid $2000 or even $3000 for one scene doesn't benefit them much financially. Edited by - Zy28 on 5/28/2016 3:06:24 AM Click to expand That amount is the equivalent of 5 scenes or more for a newbie in one session , so instead of doing ten scenes she'd do only six for the same amount so why not? [Link]
Zy28 Deactivated User 251 Posts 2/12	Posted - Jun 4 2016 : 4:36PM Melvyn wrote: whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth. Click to expand Exactly. We've been over this before too. He should understand by now. If IR was not in fact worth more, then no one in their right mind would ever pay more for it. But producers do all the time. How would it be a sound investment to pay extra for something which is not worth extra? Let's forget the "racism" red herring. You know who likes seeing 1st time IRs? Black guys. They love it. It's one of their favorite things, if not THE favorite thing in porn. So if it's racist, don't forget to condemn all those black fans of IR porn. But seriously, how could it be racist? Even black females love seeing a white girl get drilled by BBC for the first time. I remember a interview where this black female performer said it turns her on. Click to expand I'm surprised you don't understand by now, since we've been through it ad nauseam, that the IR category itself rooted in racism. Given that it's applied to Black + other races scenes, but not any other grouping such as Latino/white, Latino/Latino, Asian/Latino, white/Asian, Asian/Asian, etc..which would be logically consistent. But of course such racism isn't logical. Also since racism is inherent in the category, the notion that it's a red-herring is demonstrably false as evidenced by the aforementioned reasons given. As for how much such scenes are "worth," based on the frequency of how often they're done they appear to be below Anal and B/b/g pairings since those are done with greater frequency and less controversy. The controversy of course stemming from the racial primitivity of some. And extra pay for such scenes is in fact a bribe since many industry girls aren't doing scenes with Black males unless they're paid extra. A practice which has already been shown to be rooted in racism. Now such a practice could be done away with, but sites and directors like Blacked/DarkX/Jules Jordan would need to stop doing it, instead of continuing to perpetuate the racism inherent in the act. Which at this time doesn't appear to be likely. Moreover as has already been stated, given that many women only do such scenes once or maybe twice the extra pay itself is meaningless given that they'd have to do 5 scenes or more to make it really financially worth it. And the talent, would also have to have a long term strategy of doing many such scenes over many months. But the girls that shoot for the aforementioned sites don't do that. Many have done only 1-2 scenes tops. So then the pay strategy appears to really only be based on inducing girls to do the scenes once or twice to get subscribers for such sites, not a long term financial profitability strategy for the talent themselves. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Jun 4 2016 : 5:52PM Zy28 wrote: I'm surprised you don't understand by now, since we've been through it ad nauseam, that the IR category itself rooted in racism. Given that it's applied to Black + other races scenes, but not any other grouping such as Latino/white, Latino/Latino, Asian/Latino, white/Asian, Asian/Asian, etc..which would be logically consistent. But of course such racism isn't logical. Click to expand Are you sure that it would be logically consistent? Is it your opinion that a market exists for "Latino/white, Latino/Latino, Asian/Latino, white/Asian, Asian/Asian, etc.." as specific categories to the extent that such a market exists for bm/wf or even wm/bf? [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Jun 4 2016 : 6:09PM ^^ I agree the genre is rooted in racism, but you take a few leaps of logic after, that I can't agree with. Supporting something isn't either directly or indirectly doesn't necessarily make a person (or the act of supporting it) racist. I buy milk every other day from the grocery store. Honestly I don't care where the milk comes from as long as its fresh and it taste good. For all I know that milk might come from a farm owned by a KKK Grand Wizard, and the money I spend might help that guy pay his asshole-club membership dues. But that doesn't make me or Kroger racists for buying and/or selling that milk. It doesn't mean I think black people are different or inferior, it just means I like fresh milk. For a more tangible example, I have nothing against gay people but I love the shit out of of Chick-Fil-A nuggets, regardless of what backwards-ass politics the owner of Chick-Fil-A might have. Living in a society where we depend on other people means we are going to have to make some moral compromises in our lives, knowingly or unknowingly. It is unavoidable. It's the reality of our interconnected society. You need to accept that as a member of society you're going to contribute something to a person or cooperation that supports things your are opposed too. That doesn't compromise your beliefs, it just means we're stuck in a situation with no right answer. Porn performers and producers are no different. It's a matter of practicality. If there is enough demand to justify paying performers extra for a particular act, people will pay and charge more. One could argue that charging more for interracial sex is exploiting the consumer's racist preferences, as they are the ones that ultimately pay that extra money. If they are the ones that are the root cause of the problem, and they are the ones that are paying the premium that allows for that extra payday to happen, then isn't it ultimately just a "sin tax" on the people who insist on categorizing and subdividing their porn performers by race? Edited by - murdock on 6/4/2016 6:09:55 PM [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Jun 6 2016 : 9:34AM Zy, all you're saying is racism is good. IR is good. IR is racism. Therefore racism is good. Your argument is simply not worth making unless you want to continue diluting the meaning of racism so far that it now becomes a good. It's as though you have inverted the meaning of it, whereas once it was evil and reprehensible to now just a matter of preferences and convention. More on inversion later. Either convince the majority of people that IR is bad, or you're just fighting an uphill battle that amounts to you trivializing racism. Of course the IR category is not logically consistent. This doesn't make it some sort of moral corruption or evil. It's getting really nauseating reading the same attacks over and over again about how it's bad, when I'm sure 99% of IR fans will tell you otherwise. Why would so many black and white consumers enjoy it if it was bad or detrimental to society? You think IR should include other races. Welcome to the club! I agree. But the greatest practical use for the category is more than sufficiently evidenced by the fact that black male + white female dominates in sales. There's no other interracial pairing that comes even remotely close in popularity. Yes it should encompass all the interracial pairings that exist, and I am sure if those other categories sold even half as well as the conventional bm+wf, then they might be! But just because there is inequality does not mean there is inequity. Just because there is discrimination, even racial discrimination, does not mean it is racism. Unless you want to call organizations like the NAACP racist for prioritizing a given race's interests over all others. There's interest groups for virtually any significant demographic you want to name. Inherently their agendas discriminate all other issues in order to prioritize their special interest. For the most part, society just accepts this. Yes, the way IR is currently categorized is discriminatory. But no one who is a part of it is advocating racism. Even if you insist that they do, then tell us who is the presumed superior race? We have had belligerent critics on this forum contend that IR demeans the black guys. We have read from female performers in the biz their personal viewpoint that IR makes the women into demeaned and degraded sluts. How can they both be correct? If racism reflects anything significant, which is to say if the term racism has any meaningful use at all, by which egalitarians like ourselves -- who I'd give about everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are -- could readily recognize as indicating a favoring of one race which threatens others, then which race is the one benefiting? It seems to be black and white benefit from IR. Maybe we can adopt a new term for this, called biracism: putting two races above all others. After all, what would the product of an IR conception be but biracial? With all due respect, I fear the overuse of so many -ism's in such increasingly trifling matters isn't going to rally more people to your cause or take it seriously. It is because most people do take such -ism's seriously, and they do take them to represent bigoted or hateful discrimination, they will find it alienating when you tell them their positive oriented interests are inherently racist. Shifting gears for a moment but also keeping it topical, have you guys heard any of the late Muhammad Ali's various speeches against race mixing? Would you say his views make him racist? I think if we use this ticky-tack interpretation that some here keep nagging with, then certainly Ali's views were even more resoundingly racist since he was staunchly against races mixing. Now if promoting interracial is somehow racist, then certainly it's beyond doubt that calling for prohibition of races mixing must be racist. But I think to call Ali a racist trivializes the term. You may believe he was one. I wouldn't regard him as that, even though yes, technically he espoused racially discriminatory views. I believe his "racism" was more to do with preference for retaining racial identity. I do not share that preference or place any great weight on notions of racial pride, nor do I share his proscription against the races mixing. But I believe he still had respect for anyone regardless of race, at least many personal accounts have attested to his good nature and mutual respect shown for others. I simply also believe that to label people who do in fact approve of races mixing as racist to be having lost the plot, to the point of being logically or philosophically unmoored. I appreciate your concern, but come home. The reservations of logic miss you. If wanting to see two people of different race fucking makes someone racist, then the Earth revolves around the moon, and the Sun revolves around the Earth. To my mind, the best sociological litmus test for whether someone is racist would be if they could approve of someone in their family marrying outside their race. A lot of people do oppose that, but there's only so much they can do to prevent it when people are in love. So I guess by this test, then Muhammad Ali must trip the racism-meter, but again, I have to stress how slippery this issue is and use his as a prime example why it's better to not just throw that term around so casually. Anyway that's my best bid to stir the pot for now, or would that be swirl? Keep it civil, fam! Edited by - Melvyn on 6/6/2016 9:40:07 AM [Link]
Dat_1_Dude Senior Member 1779 Posts 1/15	Posted - Jun 6 2016 : 9:28PM wanted to say, as a slightly related aside, went to IAFD to search up some scenes and I was searching up black females and some of their scenes with white guys aren't even listed as interracial anymore. Like, has it become that commonplace and accepted that interracial is the official term for "black male" in the industry? The denotation is being ignored in every possible way. Like others have said, I wish filters could include the ethnicities of girls and a more detailed listing of males. I'd like to not just differentiate from black and white, I'd like there to be some type of designation to separate Criss Strokes, Johnny Castle, et al from Toni Ribas and Ramon Nomar or Nacho Vidal and Manuel Ferrara....they may have similar skintones but they are not just white or "non-black" [Link]

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Mass Facialties
Deactivated User

"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie
9308 Posts
9/13

Posted - May 24 2016 : 2:57AM

Bingo. What's good for Blacked isn't necessarily good for IR altogether.

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chessmaster
Member

768 Posts
6/12

Posted - May 24 2016 : 3:53PM

blkknight1 wrote:
This discussion lately has reminded me of an old South Park episode where the guys formed a rock group but refused to play because people were illegally downloading the music anyway. Anyway in the episode there was a scene were they were doing a news report and they said a poll was done to see if people would stop downloading because of the refusal. The result we 1% yes 2% no, and 97% said who the hell is MOOP(being the name of the guys band).
Now I would have to believe that the same thing would apply to a performer waiting to shoot IR. If a poll were taken and people asked if Pornstar X's policy on IR was to wait for a bit would you still watch her scenes. There would be a contingent that says Yes there would be one that says No, but I willing to bet that the vast majority would say who they hell is pornstar X.
Reading the above posts on the likes of Sheridan Love my initial reaction was WHO?
Another thing is that it seems for those who are playing the waiting the game there are some who are out promoting/hyping it even before a deal has been struck to film it. It's kinda like the whole Brazzers Madison Ivy anal situation, this could lead to some frustration and anger among IR fans. If you are going to film the scene and are looking for a the best deal would it not wise to handle it behind the scene first get the deal done and then start hyping it up.
One last thing I cant recall if this has been brought up in terms of first IR and how lucrative they can be to the parties involved. Just my personal opinion first anything be it overall scene/IR or whatever are usually underwhelming and hardly ever memorable unless they are the performers only scene. So could it be the reason that first IR are also popular because after waiting for a while you are never sure of it is the performer's last.
Click to expand

I agree 100%. 90 percent of these girls mentioned wanting more money I have no clue who the fuck they are. I think it's a bit arrogant but maybe that's just me.
Edit: also, I still see no reason why every pornstar feels they have to wait to fuck a black guy on camera other than potentially* more money or potentially "pacing" their career. They can't all command a small fortune just* to have sex with a black guy on camera.
Edited by - Chessmaster on 5/24/2016 4:02:36 PM

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Canadian_Cindy
Deactivated User

1102 Posts
2/15

Posted - May 24 2016 : 5:00PM

Anyone want to place bets as to when this thread gets to 100 pages with no resolution?

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 24 2016 : 6:50PM

^ Hah.
Well I do think it's been productive in that people are now realizing - GASP! - there might be more to this practice than bigotry. So hopefully that quells some of the moral outrage on the issue. It's a business move, and all business inherently involves risk. For some, it's worth it, and for others it is not.
I think the best irony of this is that people with strong indignant feelings about how IR is portrayed in "the industry" (really too broad for anyone to make any definitive glib summation), seem to have great respect for Blacked and praise their direction. Yet Blacked happens to be the company spending the most to get IR exclusives. I asked before, but I don't recall seeing any answers: is there any other company out there likely spending more on IR exclusives that Blacked?
It's just one of those things. You can't love it so much but then be mad about what it takes to get it. You could say, well the ends do not justify the means, and while I do praise the overall product, the principle stands. But then principle is standing on too shaky foundation for moral outrage.
But I can't hiss loud enough next time I read some interview with a pornstar trying to seem righteous on this issue, making blanket statements about "the industry." It's like, "oh do piss off."
There's always been companies producing decent IR without any degrading aspects, without anything deviating from the norm for vanilla porn. And yes, there have been brands that totally play up the stereotypes and "blaxploitation" angle. But even in those exploitative IR pornos, there's never been a monolithic narrative. Some of them play into the "black beast" stereotype. In fact that was even the title of a long running series. I remember it had an amazing scene between Avy Scott and Mandingo, circa 2004. What's interesting about that series is that, despite the title, the actual porn was standard gonzo with no over racial tones. So, you can't really judge most of these IR pornos based on their cover or title. Mostly they are only ostensibly exploitative, but the actual content of these pornos was largely neutral.
Meanwhile other brands play into the "milquetoast wimpy white cuck" stereotype. I honestly think as much of the IR porn I've seen which does exploit racial themes has been stigmatizing toward white guys as it has black guys.
But the point is, there's never been any one way you could try and paint "the industry" on the whole. And from what I've observed over the last 15 years, most of the "stereotypical" direction portraying black males as animalistic or pushing the N-word has been created or spurred on by black male talent, e.g. the Jake Steed "Black Monsters" series, and HushHush's "Abominable Black Man" and "Blackzilla" etc.
The reason I don't object to any of that is because it's just over the top porn fantasies, and almost all of it is self-aware. They were just having fun and I think it's insulting to audiences and IR fans to say grown adults can't tell these are not documentaries.
Ultimately it should be recognized that we can, and indeed have had, various treatments of IR with radically different narratives in porn at the same time. They can co-exist.
I remember one porno, it was one of those over the top sex romps from Jake Steed, where Lex was dressed up as a Pharaoh as if he was a statue at an exhibit. Some cute brunette girl was timidly "inspecting" the "statue." She wanted to get close up and lift his skirt and see what was under it. Of course he comes to life and sex ensues "with spicy results!" I think at a point during the scene Lex intones "Once black, never back." Is this heinous hate speech? Or is this just a fun and creative, if goofy, scene? It looked like they were just having fun. And why shouldn't it be fun?

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - May 24 2016 : 7:40PM

^^
It'll get locked well before it gets to a hundred pages. I wouldn't be surprised if it got locked before it gets to 50.

[Link]

ninja1
Senior Member

2939 Posts
1/08

Posted - May 24 2016 : 9:07PM

I predict some troll will (re)appear and cause once-semi-cool heads to overheat, leading to threadlock and possibly collateral deactivations.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:13PM

I've pointed out several times that an increasing number of pornstars are shooting IR as their first "first" and not waiting very long. As far as I can tell we are still far from reaching a point in which most women enter the industry with IR on their card, but I do think that Blacked has changed the game when it comes to how open new talent are to shooting first IR early.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:33PM

^^ and ^^^ I doubt either of you expected it to last this long.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/24/2016 11:43:21 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:40PM

IR is moving steadily on its way to replacing anal as the go to b/g first. If that trend continues we'll have a lot less to talk about.

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - May 24 2016 : 11:58PM

^^
The mods have done a pretty good job in both of the contentious IR related threads in Porn Pool of warning and banning people before we get to the point of thread locks.

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Gore Gore Girl

Doctor of the Erotic Arts

7238 Posts
1/09

Posted - May 27 2016 : 3:42PM

Semi-relevant tweets from Janice Griffith:
Note the responses that ask if she hates sex with black men or thinks IR sex is disgusting. Sigh.
Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 5/27/2016 3:43:43 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 27 2016 : 3:53PM

^Did she really think that no one was going to market or categorize that scene as interracial and first IR just because she doesn't believe in the category?

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ghost88
Member

615 Posts
9/13

Posted - May 27 2016 : 5:31PM

^ Yeah she can't be serious. There's a chance she's a one and done unless she gets paid good again. She will use the label as the reason.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 27 2016 : 5:50PM

^I also think that one and done is a real possibility.

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Dat_1_Dude
Senior Member

1779 Posts
1/15

Posted - May 27 2016 : 7:09PM

^^^^ one and done for sure, weird timing since most one and done's do it on the verge of retiring. Seems like she waited for feedback from a certain group of high paying clientele or something and is now trying to walk it back and "protect her image." I've seen other holdouts use a similar excuse, but they did it with guys like Karlo Karrera, Cuban Ramon, Alex Jones, and Stallion where they could flip flop on whether they wanted the company to label it as interracial or not for their own benefit. She knew who the guy was, what the scene was, and of course I doubt JJV did the "book them for one category, label it different in post-production" scheme on her.
I mean, it is not rare for girls to just go on an IR drought. For one, most girls will claim that "they dont get booked for it", two, some girls will stay away for awhile for one reason(likely a bad shoot) or another and return like Lexi Belle, August Ames, and Jayden James, three, the market demand has made holding out more profitable for some of the more established holdouts. However, not many have went on such a self-aggrandizing tirade after the deed was done for the purpose of denouncing the scene altogether.
We already know the undertones of interracial and such, but for me, it just helps me identify and filter scenes faster when searching through movies or scene catalogs. There is so much white-on-white porn, I would hate to have search through all of it to find interracial when I'm not looking for an all-vanilla movie.

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - May 27 2016 : 8:24PM

^^^^
I get having an issue with the way the industry portrays scene between black and non-black talent. I totally understand it. But you cannot get away from the fact that interracial is a widely used category outside of its issues, and that any scene between a black male and a non-black female is going to be tagged as interracial when it comes to large databases like AEBN. There's just no getting away from that.
Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 5/27/2016 8:24:31 PM

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 28 2016 : 12:48AM

lmao I notice that pornstars who feel very strongly and indignant about really retarded shit don't last long. That's just people in general though. Very fickle and flippant behavior suggests lack of commitment.
If more important things aren't occupying a person's mind, watch out.
I will say I don't fault her taking exception to it in principle, but I cannot sympathize with that level of moral outrage. Yes, technically "interracial" category in porn is problematic. But it hasn't anything to do with oppressing or discriminating against minorities. It's actually discriminating in favor of them, black men at least. These guys are kings. The IR fans do not disparage or look down on them. And the industry has literally ZERO interest in suppressing IR. It's actually incentivizing for them to promote it - exactly why they do push novelties like "1st time IR" etc.
It would be one thing if the reason the category existed was to marginalize and discriminate against and belittle black performers. There would be a case for moral outrage if IR was used as a label to blacklist people. But this isn't the reality.
This is why time and again I have to express dismay when someone is posing as a proponent of social justice, when their proscriptions are so misguided as to miss the point entirely - like a batter swinging for the fences totally whiffing and spinning into a circle, twisting up their feet and falling over.
It's just like "calm down, child" lol.
I get it. You don't like labels. "labels are wrong man." Yes, we are all part of the same race, the human race. I totally support that notion. But some of us (a LOT of us) like seeing hot non-black chicks (along with hot black chicks) taking BBC.
If there is something particularly wrong with that, then how could you explain your objection to interracial couples who happen to be particularly attracted to their partner's race? There's nothing harmful or socially deleterious going on here. If there is, I'd like to know what.

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Zy28
Deactivated User

251 Posts
2/12

Posted - May 28 2016 : 1:14AM

No it's pretty much rooted in racism. Which should be clear given that it's based on the notion that working with Black talent is so "different" from other b/g scenes that it requires bribery to convince girls to do it.
And stating that it's a "business" move doesn't eliminate the offensiveness of it, given that behavior done in the name of "business" involves some of basest human behavior as people seek to acquire money at any cost.
As for the logic of asking for more money for such scenes, it doesn't really make much sense, given that unless the women do 5+ such scenes, which they won't, being paid $2000 or even $3000 for one scene doesn't benefit them much financially.
Edited by - Zy28 on 5/28/2016 3:06:24 AM

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - May 28 2016 : 3:13AM

^
Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth.

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DiamondJackman
Deactivated User

Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy
501 Posts
10/15

Posted - May 28 2016 : 6:53AM

How come Kylie Sinner hasn't been requested?

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:15AM

Racism that favors black males. You keep leaving that out. The scenes are worth more and hence females want to be paid more, because people favor seeing them with black men. You arguing this is negative, as if the scenes have more value and therefore cost more, on account of people hating black guys is preposterous. That's like saying the reason anal costs more and it's so popular is because people hate it. It makes no fucking sense.

Zy28 wrote:
And stating that it's a "business" move doesn't eliminate the offensiveness of it, given that behavior done in the name of "business" involves some of basest human behavior as people seek to acquire money at any cost.
Click to expand
Sorry Zy but you have to realize, some things are simply not equal. Women make far more money than men do in fashion and in porn. Why? Because everyone loves women - well except for about 2% of the population. But 98% of men and women alike love women's bodies. Our eyes are magnetized to them, their bodies, their faces disproportionately. It's nowhere close to 1:1.
So females in porn make 2-3 times as much as men, and even many times more beyond that at the highest levels. It's certainly unequal. Where's the outrage? We're not talking about a 10% difference. We're talking about 200%, 300%, even 500% more for women.
Porn values big dicks. A lot of black guys have big dicks. Guys like Lex, Shane Diesel, and Mandingo and many other examples all make a lot of money because people want to see the big dick.
But not all guys are hung like horses. It's not fair! It's not equal! This is highly offensive! Why should the big dick guys get all the pretty women in porn AND be paid more for it?
To that end, pretty people in media make more money than ugly people. Isn't that unequal and unfair and offensive?
Get a grip. We've already been over this. Getting offended over things which virtually nobody has control over is madness. People like what they like. If people like something a lot, then it is probably going to have higher value that things they don't like that much. Welcome to the business world.
Zy28 wrote:As for the logic of asking for more money for such scenes, it doesn't really make much sense, given that unless the women do 5+ such scenes, which they won't, being paid $2000 or even $3000 for one scene doesn't benefit them much financially.
Edited by - Zy28 on 5/28/2016 3:06:24 AM
Click to expand
Yes, I agree as I've already established this ad nauseum. It doesn't change the fact that IR scenes are worth more, particularly 1st IR. So if they are worth more, why should we not expect the female to want her share? It is a gamble how long a female waits to get what she thinks is equitable remuneration for granting any of her 1st scenes to.

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:26AM

Exactly. We've been over this before too. He should understand by now.
If IR was not in fact worth more, then no one in their right mind would ever pay more for it. But producers do all the time. How would it be a sound investment to pay extra for something which is not worth extra?
Let's forget the "racism" red herring. You know who likes seeing 1st time IRs? Black guys. They love it. It's one of their favorite things, if not THE favorite thing in porn.
So if it's racist, don't forget to condemn all those black fans of IR porn. But seriously, how could it be racist? Even black females love seeing a white girl get drilled by BBC for the first time.
I remember a interview where this black female performer said it turns her on.

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LCF

All-Star Member

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10364 Posts
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Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:11AM

I'm guessing she had agreement of some kind with them

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
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Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:45AM

^She didn't produce the scene, so I doubt it.

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LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
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Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:54AM

^
some kind of : I'll accept the scene but it must not be marketed as "first IR" nor labeled IR at all , just sex
They agreed but didn't respect their word
could be?

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 28 2016 : 12:35PM

^If she had such a deal, it wasn't with AEBN.

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - May 28 2016 : 7:01PM

^
The deal would have been with whomever shot the scene (Jules Jordan, I think).

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:08PM

^Yep, which brings me back to my question: Did she really think that no one was going to market or categorize that scene as interracial and first IR just because she doesn't believe in the category?

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murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:24PM

^ Did you really think no one would try and turn this thread into yet another typical IR shitshow, because you didn't want it to be?
But to respond to your question, if she was attempting to make a principled stand, (and the context certainly indicates that) does it matter if she thought it would be categorized that way or not?
Edited by - murdock on 5/28/2016 9:28:12 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - May 28 2016 : 9:55PM

The back and forth that occurred between murdock and I earlier in the thread nearly got it locked. Because of that, I stopped interacting with murdock and have no plans to change that.

Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/28/2016 9:56:45 PM

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ghost88
Member

615 Posts
9/13

Posted - May 28 2016 : 10:03PM

Melvyn wrote:
whatsatelephonebill wrote:
^
Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth.
Click to expand
Exactly. We've been over this before too. He should understand by now.
If IR was not in fact worth more, then no one in their right mind would ever pay more for it. But producers do all the time. How would it be a sound investment to pay extra for something which is not worth extra?
Let's forget the "racism" red herring. You know who likes seeing 1st time IRs? Black guys. They love it. It's one of their favorite things, if not THE favorite thing in porn.
So if it's racist, don't forget to condemn all those black fans of IR porn. But seriously, how could it be racist? Even black females love seeing a white girl get drilled by BBC for the first time.
I remember a interview where this black female performer said it turns her on.
Click to expand

I don't know how it's worth more. If that was the case brazzers, naughty america, bangbros, ect....would be jumping at the chance to shoot first IR if they were worth so much. Brazzers/Naughty America could easily afford it, but why do they refuse to do it? It's only blacked going after these women in droves, others companies only do it here and there. Producers do not do it all the time. Dogfart refuses to pay more for first IR, if it were worth it they would do it. Chicks like rachel starr says she will do it for the right price, but there is a reason companies are refusing to give her that price, not worth it. Gracie glam to Alexis texas still haven't done IR because their price hasn't been met. If first IR was worth so much every single company would shoot IR at least half the time, but they mainly focus on white on white because it's worth more than first IR will ever be. Lets be real, most people will download these scenes for free anyway, so it's money wasted.

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:20AM

^ Yeah I've wondered that myself. I suspect the explanation is pretty simple. Brazzers established itself as very vanilla for such a long time, that deviating from that always invited backlash. Remember people have commented saying the forum for their members was pretty racist, or at least it tolerated a lot of hateful speech on it before they decided to clean it up with some moderation in more recent years. It's why I don't really judge them too harshly, since they've taken steps to pursue IR more in recent years and clean up their message boards.
Still, it's not enough IR to entice me as a consumer. So for a lot of consumers, brand recognition is critical, and for those particular brands it may be too little too late to really capitalize on IR. I don't believe it's ever too late, but I think in the case of Brazzers, they'd be better off launching a independent all-IR site. I do believe it would be quite successful if they rebranded it. But then a lot of consumers would say, why isn't this part of the whole Brazzers package?
I'm sure they could afford either option.
Personally I would sooner subscribe to an all-IR site than Brazzers, unless they could produce at least 6 IR scenes per month.
Additional note: credit Jules Jordan for presenting her 1st IR how she wanted, and not advertising it on his site as "Her 1st IR." I'm not sure how that worked out for him, but he's evidently honored that request.
Edited by - Melvyn on 5/29/2016 10:27:14 AM

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:48AM

Question, was AEBN consulted about how they can advertise this beforehand? And how did they present this, in a scene description?

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:56AM

Actually, I'm curious how AEBN is advertising her 1st IR at all when we don't know what movie this scene is even for. What are they trying to sell? The individual scene without any movie entry? Huh? Can we get some links ppl?

[Link]

blkknight1
Member

707 Posts
10/09

Posted - May 29 2016 : 10:57PM

^Janice Griffith one of our favorite spinners
The blog post comes off as a totally praising piece in fact the only thing mentioned about the scene was this one line.
"Coming up soon, Janice takes on the big black cock. Her first interracial scene was shot with the hugely hung Flash Brown for Jules Jordan Video."
The way she reacted I was expecting sometime much more nefarious on AEBN's part.

She retired 6 months ago

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 30 2016 : 8:48PM

Seems like she is making a bigger deal out of it than they are. In effect she is drawing more attention to it. IDK how many people normally read AEBN blog entries. I know it never occurred to me. We just use it for shopping for deals and seeing what's new.
I do read the entries and reviews here because that's what this community is all about. But AEBN is just a vendor.
What's funny is nobody objects to the item descriptions on the boxes of these flicks. "Now this petite white treat is about to get her pussy punished!" "Innocent girl anally abused!" "It's time to dominate these freaky sluts!" "Watch as these slutty bitches get tamed!" etc...
Take away the 1st time IR, nothing more than a technical aspect, and producers are still free to give graphic dehumanizing descriptions of wanton carnality which is pretty much the norm.
Edited by - Melvyn on 5/30/2016 8:49:36 PM

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Dread
Senior Member

Latex and boobs
5085 Posts
3/07

Posted - May 30 2016 : 10:41PM

I find the whole Janice Griffith thing funny because she's indian...so every scene of hers technically is IR.
Plus it was like 2 tweets about it anyway.
----Dread's Twitter----

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - May 31 2016 : 12:55AM

^ Yeah but nobody really objects to all the other interracial combinations not being labeled IR. They only object to the way it's used to designate including black performers. And even then, it seems to not be consistent in that we almost never hear anyone complain about white male with black female being regarded as interracial. Seems people only take exception when it's involving black males, and this pertains to objectors who may be pro or anti-interracial.
So the way I see it, the only way you can logically and correctly argue this issue is not to object to the existence of labels which have a beneficial purpose for consumers, but to want greater specificity in the IR label. We don't need less. We need more. The way we have BG or BBG or BGG labels, IR should have abbreviations for which races. And it shouldn't be too hard to adopt these labels/tags since most IR fans are already using them, e.g. WM/BF = white male, black female. That seems to come up a lot as a designation because many IR fans need it to help them find exactly what they are looking for, as most IR involves black male with other female. I think I've seen way more WM/BF labels because the standard of black male + white female is so common, we pretty much assume that's what IR will be designating.
People could criticize this saying it's too cluttered, but how is it anymore cluttered than longer labels like "threesome" or "compilation" or "creampie"? We could just say IRhm/af for hispanic male with asian female. It's going to be fewer characters than many categories already out there. IRwm/bf = white male + black female. I think in the future, vendors should make more use of such sub-genre tags. You can have your general category list, e.g. amateur, MILF, teen, anal, IR, etc. and then when you click the IR category, you can specify in a dropdown list if you wish to further specify. This is the most basic convention that any online retailers use. Wal-mart, Target, Amazon, NewEgg, etc.
As a content creator, I find it helps to add tags to posts because it makes it easier for people to find what they are looking for.

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Zy28
Deactivated User

251 Posts
2/12

Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 12:22AM

From the perspective of the porn industry though, only two group pairings merit mention: Black and everyone else.
Which is obviously rooted in racism, but also undermines the argument that the category of IR exists to help with consumers finding the movies they want, since it's not used for other racial pairings, such as Asian/white, Asian/Latino, Latino/White, etc..
Only Black + insert group merits the label.
As for Janice, I'm glad she finally decided to do such a scene, because previously she complained about the racism of the category itself and the way such scenes were advertised, instead of doing a scene herself and making sure it was advertised and produced without being offensive.
Edited by - Zy28 on 6/1/2016 12:37:07 AM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 12:53AM

^Is it your opinion that a market exists for "Asian/white, Asian/Latino, Latino/White, etc.." as specific categories to the extent that such a market exists for bm/wf or even wm/bf?
Edited by - misspornUSA on 6/1/2016 12:54:13 AM

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sh_rock
Member

we the people in order to form a more perfect union...
518 Posts
12/03

Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 1:54AM

in all this talk about holding out on doing scenes with black men there is one point that has really yet to be made. no matter what reasons one gives for one not doing IR and/or whether or not it is rooted in racism, there are REAL PEOPLE who are victims of this practice. let's be mindful of that.

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sh_rock
Member

we the people in order to form a more perfect union...
518 Posts
12/03

Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 2:00AM

Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 3:54AM

sh_rock wrote:
Melvyn wrote:
Zy28 wrote:
Melvyn wrote:
Racism that favors black males.
Click to expand
so what was the logic behind that statement?
Click to expand
That logic is that said "racism" is not racism. Unless the initial argument was that it's racism that is good for black males. Which sorta contradicts the definition. This "discrimination" is just the preferences of consumers. Some discriminate against it because they don't like seeing black males in porn. Even that in itself isn't racist in any moral or meaningful sense. But even if we grant that it is racism on their part for preferring not to see black males in porn, the majority of people discriminating are doing so in favor of black males in porn. So how is it a problem for them when it favors them?
If anyone is being discriminated against in an unfavorable way when it comes to the topic of interracial, it's Asian men. Practically non-existent in porn. People would say black women, but there's an overflowing abundance of black women in porn compared to Asian men.
But I don't see how anyone has an argument when they're trying to stick up for dudes who are eating good off the system as it is. Black men are #1 in IR porn. They rule that domain, and not just that, but even on the overall bestsellers list. They are probably the 2nd most in-demand demographic of race+gender in the whole industry, 2nd only to white women. So ironically, the "racism" argument sorta falls apart with IR. The industry has a major category, which while it does not specifically pertain exclusively to black guys, it does almost exclusively favor them. I would say less than 10% of all IR flicks feature white guys. Once in a blue moon a studio will produce a white male + black female porno, but they just don't sell as much.
Coincidentally I came across some guys on Twitter giving Layna Landry grief for shooting with Blacked, and she said she was also told white male + black female doesn't sell as much.
https://twitter.com/Excelsion/status/724626942109069313
I think it's pretty clear.
Now given that the industry is dominated by big bad white male racist scum, why would they lie and say that IR porn with white guys doesn't sell as much? If they were racist and trying to cheat the system to favor them, wouldn't they be trying to sell the fabricated notion that it's IR with black male + white female which does not sell?
You would think if they were practicing racism in the industry, and since it's white guys who supposedly run everything, wouldn't they be trying to push white male + black female a lot more? Wouldn't they try to push white guys as the most popular males in IR? But that's far from the case.
The only color that matters to 99% of folks in business is green. If black male + white female didn't honestly sell so much, then that's surely a helluva lot of money they are pouring down the drain investing in it. If there was more money to be had with white guys in IR, I'm pretty sure the white guys running most of the companies and doing most of the directing would be all too eager to shoot it themselves.
Edited by - Melvyn on 6/1/2016 4:05:38 AM

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 4:19AM

Yeah, but you should also keep in mind that's no deeper than people who are opposed to interracial couples and would naturally frown on interracial porn. This includes all races. There's people in every group who think they are the victims when they see people of their race dating outside of it.
Now, to my mind that is racism in effect. But you were saying just think of it in terms of who feels victimized. They will tell you they aren't racist, that they don't view any race as morally superior or inferior. They just don't approve of race mixing. It's a strange view to reconcile, but no matter what you or I say, there will always be people who adhere strongly to racial identity. There's plenty of white guys and black women who would lament seeing standard IR porn of black guys with white women, and they voice their views sometimes from a hateful place, but sometimes from a place of hurt and defensiveness.
You've probably heard people refer to "our women" or "our men." They think in racially possessive terms about the other gender within their race. I believe it is wrong to think this way, but if you want to try and explain to them how they're looking at things wrong, they could say you are trying to "invalidate their experience" or some other touchy-feely soft-science sociology major woo-woo mumbo jumbo.
But I do from time to time come across some people who object to IR and they don't seem hateful just hurt and defensive. It doesn't make me angry. It makes me feel sorry for them.

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LCF

All-Star Member

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10364 Posts
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Posted - Jun 1 2016 : 8:41AM

Zy28 wrote:
Melvyn wrote:
^ Hah.
Well I do think it's been productive in that people are now realizing - GASP! - there might be more to this practice than bigotry. So hopefully that quells some of the moral outrage on the issue. It's a business move, and all business inherently involves risk. For some, it's worth it, and for others it is not.
Click to expand
No it's pretty much rooted in racism. Which should be clear given that it's based on the notion that working with Black talent is so "different" from other b/g scenes that it requires bribery to convince girls to do it.
And stating that it's a "business" move doesn't eliminate the offensiveness of it, given that behavior done in the name of "business" involves some of basest human behavior as people seek to acquire money at any cost.
As for the logic of asking for more money for such scenes, it doesn't really make much sense, given that unless the women do 5+ such scenes, which they won't, being paid $2000 or even $3000 for one scene doesn't benefit them much financially.
Edited by - Zy28 on 5/28/2016 3:06:24 AM
Click to expand

That amount is the equivalent of 5 scenes or more for a newbie in one session , so instead of doing ten scenes she'd do only six for the same amount so why not?

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Zy28
Deactivated User

251 Posts
2/12

Posted - Jun 4 2016 : 4:36PM

Melvyn wrote:
whatsatelephonebill wrote:
^
Even as someone who thinks waiting for the extra pay for the first scene usually isn't worth it financially, the reason they get that pay usually isn't because they need "a bribe". It's because the girl and her agent know that the scene is worth more than a normal boy/girl scene, so they make the producers pay more than a normal b/g scene. And I don't think that statement (that a first IR scene is worth more than a typical b/g scene) is even a questionable statement at this point. It's just the truth.
Click to expand
Exactly. We've been over this before too. He should understand by now.
If IR was not in fact worth more, then no one in their right mind would ever pay more for it. But producers do all the time. How would it be a sound investment to pay extra for something which is not worth extra?
Let's forget the "racism" red herring. You know who likes seeing 1st time IRs? Black guys. They love it. It's one of their favorite things, if not THE favorite thing in porn.
So if it's racist, don't forget to condemn all those black fans of IR porn. But seriously, how could it be racist? Even black females love seeing a white girl get drilled by BBC for the first time.
I remember a interview where this black female performer said it turns her on.
Click to expand

I'm surprised you don't understand by now, since we've been through it ad nauseam, that the IR category itself rooted in racism. Given that it's applied to Black + other races scenes, but not any other grouping such as Latino/white, Latino/Latino, Asian/Latino, white/Asian, Asian/Asian, etc..which would be logically consistent. But of course such racism isn't logical.
Also since racism is inherent in the category, the notion that it's a red-herring is demonstrably false as evidenced by the aforementioned reasons given.
As for how much such scenes are "worth," based on the frequency of how often they're done they appear to be below Anal and B/b/g pairings since those are done with greater frequency and less controversy. The controversy of course stemming from the racial primitivity of some.
And extra pay for such scenes is in fact a bribe since many industry girls aren't doing scenes with Black males unless they're paid extra. A practice which has already been shown to be rooted in racism.
Now such a practice could be done away with, but sites and directors like Blacked/DarkX/Jules Jordan would need to stop doing it, instead of continuing to perpetuate the racism inherent in the act.
Which at this time doesn't appear to be likely.
Moreover as has already been stated, given that many women only do such scenes once or maybe twice the extra pay itself is meaningless given that they'd have to do 5 scenes or more to make it really financially worth it.
And the talent, would also have to have a long term strategy of doing many such scenes over many months. But the girls that shoot for the aforementioned sites don't do that. Many have done only 1-2 scenes tops.
So then the pay strategy appears to really only be based on inducing girls to do the scenes once or twice to get subscribers for such sites, not a long term financial profitability strategy for the talent themselves.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Jun 4 2016 : 5:52PM

Are you sure that it would be logically consistent? Is it your opinion that a market exists for "Latino/white, Latino/Latino, Asian/Latino, white/Asian, Asian/Asian, etc.." as specific categories to the extent that such a market exists for bm/wf or even wm/bf?

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murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Jun 4 2016 : 6:09PM

^^ I agree the genre is rooted in racism, but you take a few leaps of logic after, that I can't agree with.
Supporting something isn't either directly or indirectly doesn't necessarily make a person (or the act of supporting it) racist. I buy milk every other day from the grocery store. Honestly I don't care where the milk comes from as long as its fresh and it taste good. For all I know that milk might come from a farm owned by a KKK Grand Wizard, and the money I spend might help that guy pay his asshole-club membership dues. But that doesn't make me or Kroger racists for buying and/or selling that milk. It doesn't mean I think black people are different or inferior, it just means I like fresh milk. For a more tangible example, I have nothing against gay people but I love the shit out of of Chick-Fil-A nuggets, regardless of what backwards-ass politics the owner of Chick-Fil-A might have.
Living in a society where we depend on other people means we are going to have to make some moral compromises in our lives, knowingly or unknowingly. It is unavoidable. It's the reality of our interconnected society. You need to accept that as a member of society you're going to contribute something to a person or cooperation that supports things your are opposed too. That doesn't compromise your beliefs, it just means we're stuck in a situation with no right answer.
Porn performers and producers are no different. It's a matter of practicality. If there is enough demand to justify paying performers extra for a particular act, people will pay and charge more. One could argue that charging more for interracial sex is exploiting the consumer's racist preferences, as they are the ones that ultimately pay that extra money. If they are the ones that are the root cause of the problem, and they are the ones that are paying the premium that allows for that extra payday to happen, then isn't it ultimately just a "sin tax" on the people who insist on categorizing and subdividing their porn performers by race?
Edited by - murdock on 6/4/2016 6:09:55 PM

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Jun 6 2016 : 9:34AM

Zy, all you're saying is racism is good.
IR is good. IR is racism. Therefore racism is good. Your argument is simply not worth making unless you want to continue diluting the meaning of racism so far that it now becomes a good. It's as though you have inverted the meaning of it, whereas once it was evil and reprehensible to now just a matter of preferences and convention. More on inversion later.
Either convince the majority of people that IR is bad, or you're just fighting an uphill battle that amounts to you trivializing racism.
Of course the IR category is not logically consistent. This doesn't make it some sort of moral corruption or evil. It's getting really nauseating reading the same attacks over and over again about how it's bad, when I'm sure 99% of IR fans will tell you otherwise. Why would so many black and white consumers enjoy it if it was bad or detrimental to society?
You think IR should include other races. Welcome to the club! I agree. But the greatest practical use for the category is more than sufficiently evidenced by the fact that black male + white female dominates in sales. There's no other interracial pairing that comes even remotely close in popularity. Yes it should encompass all the interracial pairings that exist, and I am sure if those other categories sold even half as well as the conventional bm+wf, then they might be! But just because there is inequality does not mean there is inequity. Just because there is discrimination, even racial discrimination, does not mean it is racism. Unless you want to call organizations like the NAACP racist for prioritizing a given race's interests over all others. There's interest groups for virtually any significant demographic you want to name. Inherently their agendas discriminate all other issues in order to prioritize their special interest. For the most part, society just accepts this.
Yes, the way IR is currently categorized is discriminatory. But no one who is a part of it is advocating racism. Even if you insist that they do, then tell us who is the presumed superior race? We have had belligerent critics on this forum contend that IR demeans the black guys. We have read from female performers in the biz their personal viewpoint that IR makes the women into demeaned and degraded sluts. How can they both be correct? If racism reflects anything significant, which is to say if the term racism has any meaningful use at all, by which egalitarians like ourselves -- who I'd give about everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are -- could readily recognize as indicating a favoring of one race which threatens others, then which race is the one benefiting? It seems to be black and white benefit from IR.
Maybe we can adopt a new term for this, called biracism: putting two races above all others. After all, what would the product of an IR conception be but biracial?
With all due respect, I fear the overuse of so many -ism's in such increasingly trifling matters isn't going to rally more people to your cause or take it seriously. It is because most people do take such -ism's seriously, and they do take them to represent bigoted or hateful discrimination, they will find it alienating when you tell them their positive oriented interests are inherently racist.
Shifting gears for a moment but also keeping it topical, have you guys heard any of the late Muhammad Ali's various speeches against race mixing? Would you say his views make him racist? I think if we use this ticky-tack interpretation that some here keep nagging with, then certainly Ali's views were even more resoundingly racist since he was staunchly against races mixing. Now if promoting interracial is somehow racist, then certainly it's beyond doubt that calling for prohibition of races mixing must be racist.
But I think to call Ali a racist trivializes the term. You may believe he was one. I wouldn't regard him as that, even though yes, technically he espoused racially discriminatory views. I believe his "racism" was more to do with preference for retaining racial identity. I do not share that preference or place any great weight on notions of racial pride, nor do I share his proscription against the races mixing. But I believe he still had respect for anyone regardless of race, at least many personal accounts have attested to his good nature and mutual respect shown for others.
I simply also believe that to label people who do in fact approve of races mixing as racist to be having lost the plot, to the point of being logically or philosophically unmoored. I appreciate your concern, but come home. The reservations of logic miss you. If wanting to see two people of different race fucking makes someone racist, then the Earth revolves around the moon, and the Sun revolves around the Earth. To my mind, the best sociological litmus test for whether someone is racist would be if they could approve of someone in their family marrying outside their race. A lot of people do oppose that, but there's only so much they can do to prevent it when people are in love. So I guess by this test, then Muhammad Ali must trip the racism-meter, but again, I have to stress how slippery this issue is and use his as a prime example why it's better to not just throw that term around so casually.
Anyway that's my best bid to stir the pot for now, or would that be swirl? Keep it civil, fam!
Edited by - Melvyn on 6/6/2016 9:40:07 AM

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Dat_1_Dude
Senior Member

1779 Posts
1/15

Posted - Jun 6 2016 : 9:28PM

wanted to say, as a slightly related aside, went to IAFD to search up some scenes and I was searching up black females and some of their scenes with white guys aren't even listed as interracial anymore. Like, has it become that commonplace and accepted that interracial is the official term for "black male" in the industry? The denotation is being ignored in every possible way.
Like others have said, I wish filters could include the ethnicities of girls and a more detailed listing of males. I'd like to not just differentiate from black and white, I'd like there to be some type of designation to separate Criss Strokes, Johnny Castle, et al from Toni Ribas and Ramon Nomar or Nacho Vidal and Manuel Ferrara....they may have similar skintones but they are not just white or "non-black"

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