Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day (page 35)

Author	Post
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 6:42PM It seems like the studio heads were saying waiting to shoot IR for a bigger payday is not a reality for most actresses..Black males know they have a negotiating advantage and they use it. The industry has to make some tough decisions on how it is uses race or do away with altogether. [Link]
Joey Numbers Member 93 Posts 1/16	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 6:50PM ^^^I'm sure they know they are both high quality studios. Jules Jordan said, "but in general when we call to book people of all types, we get the higher rate quotes." I don't see how you can jump to the conclusion that the talent is charging more to do IR. Asking for more to do a scene for Blacked than you would for BangBros is different than asking BangBros for more to do a scene with black talent than you would with white. >>the very same thing some white stars do at least for their first scene, the male guys do that for every scene... There are white stars who charge a different rate for IR, not just their first. A number of actresses and directors have confirmed this. Edited by - joey numbers on 4/14/2016 6:51:44 PM [Link]
Zy28 Deactivated User 251 Posts 2/12	Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 9:26PM LCF wrote: ^ Yeah black men charging more for shooting with white girls , really distracts from the issue, it doesn't fit , at all with the whole drama many created out there Click to expand No one knows who charges what. Because Jules parachuted in, dropped two ambiguous statements with 0 details, and the supporters of white talent who are bribed to work with Black talent are ecstatic as they think that equalizes the situation. It doesn't. It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has more melanin. Now since Jules didn't wish to elaborate one can conclude that his practice of paying bribe money to white talent to work with Black talent continues and if Black male talent are being paid more it's because they're bigger stars. e.g. Manuel is paid more for a scene than a new white guy in porn. Or Lex is paid more than a newbie male porn star. Which is logical. They're not being paid bribe money to work with white talent. So no the situations are not equivalent. Odd some are giddily thinking it is. When it clearly is not. MimeFreak wrote: julesjordanvideo wrote: What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol Click to expand Awe man. Tell me about it. Click to expand Are they charging more because they're bigger stars? Of course. Are they charging more because they have to work with white talent? Of course not. So not the same. So why try to act like it? Edited by - Zy28 on 4/14/2016 9:29:22 PM [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:28AM JJ made deceptive comments without given a full explanation. [Link]

LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 8:58AM ^ LOL guys you're so funny trying to climb a mirror with soapy hands , your double standard is SO apparent , it's almost incredible [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 9:03AM fredgee wrote: It seems like the studio heads were saying waiting to shoot IR for a bigger payday is not a reality for most actresses..Black males know they have a negotiating advantage and they use it. The industry has to make some tough decisions on how it is uses race or do away with altogether. Click to expand Very much the same white girls do when asked to do IR for the first time, but hey no if you are white and have contract power to earn as much as you can from a scene then you have to step down when it's a plack male you're paired with, that would be racist If you are a black male though, charging more for a scene then no,they are just using their "negotiating advantage" and yet you don't see any inconsistency in such views? [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 9:16AM Zy28 wrote: LCF wrote: ^ Yeah black men charging more for shooting with white girls , really distracts from the issue, it doesn't fit , at all with the whole drama many created out there Click to expand No one knows who charges what. Because Jules parachuted in, dropped two ambiguous statements with 0 details, and the supporters of white talent who are bribed to work with Black talent are ecstatic as they think that equalizes the situation. It doesn't. It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has more melanin. Now since Jules didn't wish to elaborate one can conclude that his practice of paying bribe money to white talent to work with Black talent continues and if Black male talent are being paid more it's because they're bigger stars. e.g. Manuel is paid more for a scene than a new white guy in porn. Or Lex is paid more than a newbie male porn star. Which is logical. They're not being paid bribe money to work with white talent. So no the situations are not equivalent. Odd some are giddily thinking it is. When it clearly is not. MimeFreak wrote: julesjordanvideo wrote: What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol Click to expand Awe man. Tell me about it. Click to expand Are they charging more because they're bigger stars? Of course. Are they charging more because they have to work with white talent? Of course not. So not the same. So why try to act like it? Edited by - Zy28 on 4/14/2016 9:29:22 PM Click to expand Details? what details ? do you want a copy of the check? He said they charge him more , the scenes are IR what more details do you need, just take a look at his site, or at the latest issues , say the latest 15 years for example and you will notice that's almost all IR with very few black on black single scenes every now and then. How moral is it to charge more to shoot with someone with less melanin? How the lots of Asians he shoots fit with your picture? All of your post here only says one thing the charges depend on the worthiness of the scene, the more it's worth the more to earn. So if the black talent on a JJV movie charges more why shouldn't the model? Is she worth it? If the answer is yes than it is the VERY SAME PRACTICE the black talents are doing, they charge depending on the value of the scene. If the answer is not, rest assured nobody is going to pay her anything more than her usual rates , no matter how much she thinks otherwise. Edited by - LCF on 4/15/2016 9:32:39 AM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 9:23AM DiamondJackman wrote: JJ made deceptive comments without given a full explanation. Click to expand A what? He said that black talents charge him more than they do for other companies Mimefreak weighted in and confirmed the habit as usually practiced with him too. Then JJV added that everybody does when they shoot for him That means that neither is racism they all just try to earn as much as possible, EVERYONE of them What explanation do you want to know? How much is a dollar in American currency? Do you need further explanations? How much is a quarter dollar? A dime? no wait I forgot we need a full detailed explanation about how much a buck is worth , it's porn after all Edited by - LCF on 4/15/2016 9:25:00 AM [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:11PM ^Mike Quasar confirmed that there are discriminatory practices going on in the industry. Other black and white male and females in the industries have corroborated Mike's claims. So what more do you want? I really don't care for Minme freak, because he JJ are just trying to play the contrarian game. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:21PM ^If a producer expects to make more than usual off of a scene, it is right and just for that producer to pay a pornstar more for that scene. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:42PM From reading this topic, I think the popular opinion is you are wrong. The producer should exploit the performers; pay them as little as possible since any other pay structure is some sort of bribery; keep mass profits for themselves. [Link]
Zy28 Deactivated User 251 Posts 2/12	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:55PM LCF wrote: Details? what details ? do you want a copy of the check? He said they charge him more , the scenes are IR what more details do you need, just take a look at his site, or at the latest issues , say the latest 15 years for example and you will notice that's almost all IR with very few black on black single scenes every now and then. How moral is it to charge more to shoot with someone with less melanin? How the lots of Asians he shoots fit with your picture? All of your post here only says one thing the charges depend on the worthiness of the scene, the more it's worth the more to earn. So if the black talent on a JJV movie charges more why shouldn't the model? Is she worth it? If the answer is yes than it is the VERY SAME PRACTICE the black talents are doing, they charge depending on the value of the scene. If the answer is not, rest assured nobody is going to pay her anything more than her usual rates , no matter how much she thinks otherwise. Edited by - LCF on 4/15/2016 9:32:39 AM Click to expand Details, which will never be forthcoming, such as who asked for increased pay. Because if it's the bigger male stars asking for more pay, then it's logical. If it's based on the reasoning of, "well the white girls are asking for more pay out of racially stunted reasoning so I'll ask for more pay too." Then logical and good business sense. And if JJ and Mime et al want to put an end to it they'll need to stop bribing girls with more pay to work with Black talent. And the problem LCF is you're trying to equate talent asking for a higher fee because they're a bigger star being equivalent to someone wanted extra money to work with a Black person. They're not the same. Also trying to decouple race from the issue to make it about worthiness instead doesn't hold water as it's still race that determines the "worthiness" or "popularity" of the scene by the biased metric of some producers/directors. As for Asian talent, Keni Styles stated his scenes weren't considered IR. So no extra money for the selling point of 1st Asian! As for Asian women talent, their scenes with white talent or vice versa aren't sold as "1st with an Asian person!" or "1st with a white person!" so they don't get extra pay. I trust you can see the difference. Edited by - Zy28 on 4/15/2016 2:59:17 PM [Link]
Joey Numbers Member 93 Posts 1/16	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:59PM ^^^Then we have to ask ourselves if all scenes between black men and white women are more profitable? If not, then basing rates on that factor alone is not just nor right. ^^I wouldn't have a problem if the performers asked for higher rates for all scenes which are going to be packaged and promoted for niche audiences like fauxcest and IR. It's charging a higher rate for any scene that involves sex with a black man that I find discriminatory. Just questioning the practice is treated like exploitation of the female talent. Edited by - joey numbers on 4/15/2016 3:00:19 PM [Link]
Mister Fahrenheit All-Star Member Meh 4655 Posts 10/13	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:06PM misspornUSA wrote: ^If a producer expects to make more than usual off of a scene, it is right and just for that producer to pay a pornstar more for that scene. Click to expand Pay scales in porn seem kind of weird to me. I've seen retailers on this forum talk about how G/G is their highest selling genre. Yet G/G rates are about as low as you can get. So is pay about how much profit a scene could potentially make, or is it about the perceived increasing extremity of sex acts? There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it. [Link]

misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:09PM ^^IR firsts are often expected to be more profitable. To my knowledge, there is no such expectation for first fauxcest. As for pornstars charging more for IR scenes that aren't firsts, I've already said that that may be problematic. It depends on whether or not producers expect those scenes to be more profitable than ordinary b/gs. Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/15/2016 3:09:50 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:16PM ^^In the case of IR, if it were only a question of IR being viewed as more extreme then paying more for IR in general, and a lot more for IR firsts specifically, would be the normative practice. The problem is that we don't know how common it is for pornstars to get paid more for IR scenes that aren't firsts. However, critics within the industry generally focus on big paydays for IR firsts, and I would think that if getting paid more for IR overall were as common they would spend more time criticizing that too. Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/15/2016 3:18:45 PM [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 5:23PM misspornUSA wrote: ^If a producer expects to make more than usual off of a scene, it is right and just for that producer to pay a pornstar more for that scene. Click to expand I don't really know where you are going with this assertion? Please elaborate......MISS! [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 5:55PM ^My comment was clear and straightforward, and in any case you and I already had this conversation on page 31. [Link]
fredgee Deactivated User 350 Posts 12/13	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 6:04PM LCF wrote: fredgee wrote: It seems like the studio heads were saying waiting to shoot IR for a bigger payday is not a reality for most actresses..Black males know they have a negotiating advantage and they use it. The industry has to make some tough decisions on how it is uses race or do away with altogether. Click to expand Very much the same white girls do when asked to do IR for the first time, but hey no if you are white and have contract power to earn as much as you can from a scene then you have to step down when it's a plack male you're paired with, that would be racist If you are a black male though, charging more for a scene then no,they are just using their "negotiating advantage" and yet you don't see any inconsistency in such views? Click to expand How can a agreement be reached on this subject when expert's opinion don't count. It is not race that makes a bigger payday it box office appeal. If a white woman with a big following did a 1st IR she could get paid more. If a random chick did it no one would notice. I been saying there are too many random chicks the turn over rate is too high. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 7:41PM The fundamental misunderstanding here comes from people not realizing that there is a correlation between what something is worth and what it costs... This would be like complaining that the fashion industry is so sexist and discriminatory on account of the fact that male models only make 1/10th of what female models do. Disparity does not necessarily mean there is some sort of ethical problem. Things are they way they are in certain industries because of consumers. To blame the industry is to blame the consumers. DiamondJackman, with all due respect, your grievance (and not just yours, but those few others here in agreement with you) requires a victim. But there is no victim. Not everyone will make the same amount of money in an industry that exists precisely to cater to consumer tastes. Short fat guys with small dicks are not going to make as much as shredded monsters with giant dongers. This isn't body-shaming discrimination. It's just common sense. Not everything is equal. Not everything is fair. But FWIW, there are plenty of black performers who are eating well off this system. I'm sure Flash Brown has a nice contract with Blacked. Shane must have a deal with New Sensations, since he seems virtually exclusive to them, and then of course Lex has a deal with Evil Angel, and yet he can still work with Jules Jordan too, so that's probably one of the best deals in all of porn, for guys anyway. And Mandingo could get a deal with anyone. Rico Strong could probably get a deal too, but he may be better off as a free agent. But I would not doubt that Rico's rate is above average, cuz he gots a big dick and he's a very solid and reliable performer. Rob Piper seems really popular too, and the list goes on. There would be a very compelling case if all these popular black male performers were not being compensated properly. It would be a legit grievance to learn they were being paid less than average. But it would require incredibly poor business logic for that to be the case. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 2:57AM DiamondJackman wrote: ^Mike Quasar confirmed that there are discriminatory practices going on in the industry. Other black and white male and females in the industries have corroborated Mike's claims. So what more do you want? I really don't care for Minme freak, because he JJ are just trying to play the contrarian game. Click to expand You just admitted that you handpick what confirms your previously decided opinion and discard whatever doesn't fit with it.As a result whatever source you bring in is flawed from the very beginning. Especially because you also tend to interpret those in accordance in a even more forwarded way. Mike Quasar for example didn't say whether they were firsts or regular scenes, since many already said here that the large majority only charge more for they very first scene , even superstars., then such detail would have been of importance. Riley Reid has been reported here for admittedly having charged more for her first but that only Adriana Chechick had argument with mason because the latter only paid her regular rate and refused to pay her "first" because it wasn't a first, hence , again ,only her first was charged more. We're talking superstars POTY material Why anybody wants to pay more lesser stars but doesn't with the brightest names? Do really those obscure stars have a bigger "dealing advantage" than those superstars? I don't believe this [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 3:45AM misspornUSA wrote: ^My comment was clear and straightforward, and in any case you and I already had this conversation on page 31. Click to expand Please elaborate. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:24AM ^ It's been explained ad nauseum throughout this thread. 1st time IR scenes are worth more than the average scene. It's like we've gone 30+ pages into this discussion and you still haven't acknowledged this. It's like you've got a block against this very basic fundamental concept which the whole issue is predicated upon. Is there something about this you do not understand? If these scenes were not worth more, then why in the world would producers keep paying extra to get the exclusive rights to a performers 1st IR? If a performer's 1st IR was not actually worth more, and she wanted to charge you more for it, wouldn't you and all other producers with at least 2 brain cells to rub together just tell her to fuck off? Why pay more for it if it's not worth it? Do you think Jules Jordan or Greg Lansky or any other producer paying extra for exclusive 1st time IR scenes are just stupid? Why do you suppose people in the industry pay extra? Because it's racist? How does that even make sense to more greatly incentivize IR if the industry wanted to discriminate against blacks? Wouldn't the opposite be true if that was the case? Wouldn't they pay females LESS if they did IR? Wouldn't that be how you discourage IR? The irony is that by paying extra, the industry is doing the exact opposite of discouraging IR. They're valuing it above average scene value. This is not the industry saying "ew! black guys? Don't do that" and discouraging females from doing IR. This is the industry saying "hooray for IR. This is so amazing we'll pay EXTRA for it." All the female performers who may charge more want to know is, well what's it worth to you then since it's so amazing? That's just negotiating. Don't you believe people are entitled to know what they are selling is worth? It takes two to tango, and in order to sell something you need a buyer. As someone mentioned recently, the only way to stop this surcharge practice is for people to stop paying it. But why would they stop paying extra for it if they still profit off the backside? Apparently it works. It would however be interesting if major studios made some kind arrangement in which they all agree not to pay extra. But fat chance of that happening. Could there be a moratorium? In the end, the studios would all win because it means they all save money on it. But seriously. If in the highly unlikely event that all the major studios did honor a moratorium, that just opens up the door for a new company to capitalize by investing with the status quo scheme, paying extra for those 1st IRs, and then they become the #1 brand for it. Cuz all the girls would go to whoever pays the most. It's as futile as trying to ice skate uphill. It would be like trying to stop people from gambling on sports. Good luck with that. Finally, simply not enough people are concerned by this because there's no real victim. When a grievance is aired, it requires a victim for people to find it a compelling issue. There needs to be a face on it. Who is the one being victimized? More people would care if they knew why, don't you think? So tell them why. [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 8:02AM ^I don't support discrimination..period. [Link]

Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:02AM ^ Then you ought to fight your crusade starting from where it all begins; since B/G costs more than G/G, your crusade should start here before going into all the niches. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:04AM ^ Do you prefer IR porn? [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:07AM I prefer feature films and I prefer hot sex scenes that fit in with the narrative with performers who stay in character. The color of the performer's skin doesn't enter into whether I prefer a scene or not. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:24AM ^ I could be here all day complaining about why pretty much no one casts black men in features anymore. I think you might have been able to find a couple if you look at all of the best movie categories at AVN last year (best comedy, best parody, best drama). [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:53AM I can't say whether representatively there are a lot or not. I don't watch a ton of modern features. Mostly because most of them don't deserve to have the "feature" tag applied to them. Throughout time there have always been some black male and female performers I have enjoyed. Off topic but many, many, many years ago I was working on a script, of which most got lost during a computer crash, where one of the roles was written for Lexington Steele. Even if I had found a buyer, it never could have been made with the casting I had in mind since most were big name stars. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 10:32AM ^ It's one of the reasons that I honestly prefer vignette porn to full on features nowadays. I still get a little semblance of a story, but I get more diverse casting among the performers as well. And the worst part is that the people I think are the best at directing features don't use black male performers at all. For example, Jacky St. James just shot her first scenes with black male talent last year, and it was a vignette movie in their "Hotwife" line. Stormy Daniels doesn't (though Wicked is better than most about this, and Brad Armstrong has specifically used some in the Asa features he's shot). It's a huge part of the reason that Nica Noelle was my favorite director in terms of features, and why I was a little disappointed when she completely moved away from shooting straight porn. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 10:35AM DiamondJackman wrote: misspornUSA wrote: ^My comment was clear and straightforward, and in any case you and I already had this conversation on page 31. Click to expand Please elaborate. Click to expand I did elaborate, on page 31. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 10:41AM Flash wrote: ^ Then you ought to fight your crusade starting from where it all begins; since B/G costs more than G/G, your crusade should start here before going into all the niches. Click to expand Additionally, since Zy28 wrote that "It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has more melanin", I hope that he also interprets b/g itself the same way, ie. "It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has a penis." [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 1:26PM ^The hypocrisy in all it's entirety. If women in porn were being paid being less, feminists like you would be all over it. Edited by - Diamondjackman on 4/16/2016 4:54:08 PM [Link]
Joey Numbers Member 93 Posts 1/16	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 2:06PM The typical girl/girl scene is less physically demanding than the typical boy/girl scene. Some performers even schedule girl/girl scenes to allow their bodies to recover from boy/girl ones. [Link]

misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 3:41PM ^^I don't know what "hypocrisy" you are talking about. The fact is that you have not demonstrated that a problem actually exists. Going back to Riley Reid's blog post, her first IR probably made Jules Jordan lots of money and she deserved to get paid more than usual for it. I hope that Mandingo, who definitely was part of the draw for that scene and not a stunt cock, got paid above average for Riley's first IR as well. What's the problem? Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/16/2016 3:42:16 PM [Link]
Aya Senior Member All The Cool Girls Are Lesbians 7439 Posts 6/14	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 3:41PM ^But are pay rates actually based on how physically demanding scenes are or how popular they are? Mister Fahrenheit wrote: misspornUSA wrote: ^If a producer expects to make more than usual off of a scene, it is right and just for that producer to pay a pornstar more for that scene. Click to expand Pay scales in porn seem kind of weird to me. I've seen retailers on this forum talk about how G/G is their highest selling genre. Yet G/G rates are about as low as you can get. So is pay about how much profit a scene could potentially make, or is it about the perceived increasing extremity of sex acts? There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it. Click to expand That's a damn shame. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:06PM Aya wrote: Mister Fahrenheit wrote: misspornUSA wrote: ^If a producer expects to make more than usual off of a scene, it is right and just for that producer to pay a pornstar more for that scene. Click to expand Pay scales in porn seem kind of weird to me. I've seen retailers on this forum talk about how G/G is their highest selling genre. Yet G/G rates are about as low as you can get. So is pay about how much profit a scene could potentially make, or is it about the perceived increasing extremity of sex acts? There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it. Click to expand That's a damn shame. Click to expand Actually, performer rates seem to be relatively standard for the arts and from what I see make perfect sense. A performer, or agent, tries to get as much as possible per scene. Depending on the company, budget, and presumed income, they will get more or less for each scene. The more 'in demand' a scene is, the more the performer, or agent, can try to get. Go wander around in the Blacked thread for instance. People there are requesting specific performers all the time. The more demand for one, the more that performer can charge, and get paid, for that scene. Look at girl/girl only performers when they do their first B/G that are highly demanded. Performers can also choose to take scenes that pay less because they like the company, director, etc and want to be in that title. I am not sure why this is "a damn shame," this is capitalism how it is supposed to work. Most careers in the arts, be one a director, writer, painter, musician, etc, are like this as far as pay works. The more demand for something and the more that something will make, the more you can get. Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:07:33 PM [Link]
Mister Fahrenheit All-Star Member Meh 4655 Posts 10/13	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:08PM ^ But what I was getting at was that there seems to be a very strong demand for G/G content, yet the pay isn't commensurate with that. I believe it was Jacco in another thread who said G/G content was his biggest seller. Am I wrong about the popularity of G/G? Edit: Found Jacco's post, speaking about the top categories on his site: Jacco wrote: I don't know the top 10 out of my head, but I do know lesbian is #1 with a large margin. Jacco Click to expand Obviously that's just one retailer, so I'm not sure how representative that is. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 4/16/2016 4:12:02 PM [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:23PM ^ Girl/Girl appears to be the best selling in a lot of places, but you don't see all sorts of threads here for instance clamoring for Actress X to do a Girl/Girl scene with Actress Y. Whereas you see all sorts of threads for G/G actresses to do B/G, B/G actresses to do anal, B/G actresses to do IR. I am sure that, for instance, Devinn Lane and Julia Ann got far more money to do Beautiful/Nasty than Renee LaRue did. And probably everyone in Beautiful/Nasty got paid more than anyone in A Girl's Affair 53. Edited to add, just because a genre does better doesn't mean one title will do better. I am sure rates paid are based off of how much a company expects that performer, male or female, will bring to the profits of the production. And I am also sure that listed rates aren't always what someone gets for their role in a specific title. Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:26:41 PM [Link]
Mister Fahrenheit All-Star Member Meh 4655 Posts 10/13	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:27PM ^ Yeah, but vocal demand on a message board doesn't equal actual market demand. The hardcore gonzo audience here is often at odds with mainstream popularity. The claim is that because first IR's are more profitable, performers are in the right to demand higher pay. But if G/G scenes are more profitable than B/G scenes, wouldn't the same logic still hold? [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:41PM I suspect that if you got the rates that lesser known performers are given for IR for small companies they probably are the same as B/G rates. And no, vocal demand on a message board doesn't equate to market demand, but you can also see it on Twitter. You can see fans of Performer X saying to retweet, et,c things to get more attention. Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:42:40 PM [Link]
Gore Gore Girl Doctor of the Erotic Arts 7238 Posts 1/09	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:48PM Flash wrote: I can't say whether representatively there are a lot or not. I don't watch a ton of modern features. Mostly because most of them don't deserve to have the "feature" tag applied to them. Throughout time there have always been some black male and female performers I have enjoyed. Click to expand Just as an aside, I enjoyed FAMILY SECRETS directed by Nica Noelle. The film didn't do well, and Nica told me she thinks it's because she purposefully refused to tag it as "IR"--she just wanted to make a movie with a racially diverse cast and not categorize it. It still trades in the taboo of interracial sex, but without any overt racialized marketing. Anyway, that's a feature, quite well done, and 50% of the cast are black. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:02PM Thanks GGG, I will have to check that one out. [Link]
Gore Gore Girl Doctor of the Erotic Arts 7238 Posts 1/09	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:08PM ^ It got terrible reviews here on ADT, so be aware of that. Maybe I'm crazy but I thought it was good. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:41PM As a fan of classics and features with plot do you think it is for me? I'll trust your judgment since we are all a bit crazy here. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:03PM DiamondJackman wrote: ^I don't support discrimination..period. Click to expand Discrimination is meaningless without context. You discriminate in your own life in several ways you don't even realize. We all discriminate in our daily lives, especially when it comes to matters of taste. Do you watch a lot of gay male on male porn? No? Why are you discriminating? Do you eat a lot of sugar rich junk food? It tastes great. But it's bad for you. I personally have been cutting back on it. This is just another example of discrimination, and one which is actually highly healthy. Whenever you focus on one thing with preferences affecting your judgement, you're already discriminating. Any time you show partiality for or against a person or thing because of how it is categorized, you're discriminating. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad thing. It's actually quite natural. Virtually from birth male and female babies discriminate with the toys they are given. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with this. Again, who is the victim? Just saying discrimination is wrong is not useful. IMO as long as people are not being hostile or antagonistic, I think we can live with a certain degree of taste discrimination. I am sure everyone would wish that the things they like were also liked by more people, that way they'd see more of it being produced. But it is selfish to attack others whose taste may not sync with yours. Edited by - Melvyn on 4/16/2016 6:29:13 PM [Link]
Aya Senior Member All The Cool Girls Are Lesbians 7439 Posts 6/14	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:10PM Flash wrote: I suspect that if you got the rates that lesser known performers are given for IR for small companies they probably are the same as B/G rates. And no, vocal demand on a message board doesn't equate to market demand, but you can also see it on Twitter. You can see fans of Performer X saying to retweet, et,c things to get more attention. Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:42:40 PM Click to expand Well Girlsway for an example has plenty of demand on twitter and from members of the site itself for specific performers to be shot, and for certain pairings of performers to be done. So I would suspect the ladies in question could in theory and might actually be getting more based on the demand. I would hope a more in demand performer like Shyla Jennings isn't being paid the same rate as a relative unknown simply because it's G/G. I could see other companies paying lower rates by taking advantage of the perception that G/G isn't that popular, even though their sales numbers may say other wise. I mean what's to stop a site from seeing that their G/G scenes sell twice as much as their B/G ones, but keeping it to themselves and paying the performers less? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:14PM DiamondJackman wrote: ^The hypocrisy in all it's entirety. If women in porn were being paid being less, feminists like you would be all over it. Edited by - Diamondjackman on 4/16/2016 4:54:08 PM Click to expand Women in modeling get paid 10-20 times as much as men. Giselle Bunchen makes more money than her husband. Whose job do you honestly think is harder? Yet she has earned about twice as much as he has. Go fight about that. Tell the fashion industry why it's so unfair. That's a staggering disparity in wages. That's a REAL gender pay gap. Not some 5% difference that disappears when critical factors are taken into consideration. 10,000%-20,000% difference. I would love to see a campaign against the gender pay gap in modeling. Not because I think it's important or necessary, but because it's actually a staggering disparity in pay according to gender. So until that is even acknowledged, which it really isn't because no one cares, how can you expect rational and objective people to get up in arms over a marginal % difference in pay? I'm not exactly sure what the current average rates in porn are, but I think female performers make at least 2-3 times as much as male performers. Or at least 50% more. Females also become way more popular, and as their popularity rises, they can charge even higher rates. Again, I must reiterate the question: how can we worry about a 5, 10, or ever 15% pay difference, when black guys can actually make more than the average male performers, and women can make 200% more? Maybe even 500% more? [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:16PM Mister Fahrenheit wrote: ^ But what I was getting at was that there seems to be a very strong demand for G/G content, yet the pay isn't commensurate with that. I believe it was Jacco in another thread who said G/G content was his biggest seller. Am I wrong about the popularity of G/G? Edit: Found Jacco's post, speaking about the top categories on his site: Jacco wrote: I don't know the top 10 out of my head, but I do know lesbian is #1 with a large margin. Jacco Click to expand Obviously that's just one retailer, so I'm not sure how representative that is. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 4/16/2016 4:12:02 PM Click to expand FWIW, I have noticed lesbian movies are doing quite well on XRent. There's always a couple or more of those Girlfriend Films in the top 10. They're a really popular brand. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:27PM Gore Gore Girl wrote: Flash wrote: I can't say whether representatively there are a lot or not. I don't watch a ton of modern features. Mostly because most of them don't deserve to have the "feature" tag applied to them. Throughout time there have always been some black male and female performers I have enjoyed. Click to expand Just as an aside, I enjoyed FAMILY SECRETS directed by Nica Noelle. The film didn't do well, and Nica told me she thinks it's because she purposefully refused to tag it as "IR"--she just wanted to make a movie with a racially diverse cast and not categorize it. It still trades in the taboo of interracial sex, but without any overt racialized marketing. Anyway, that's a feature, quite well done, and 50% of the cast are black. Click to expand See, this is when it becomes cutting off the nose to spite the face. It makes no sense to basically remove a very helpful category tag, thus making it harder for the target audience to find. Why do this? I understand the intention, and maybe it's worth applauding, but it just goes to PROVE that the IR category is very helpful and not a bad thing, which misguided people seem to charge. It's not as if adding a tag is going to make the product worse. It's not as if a product can only have 1 tag either. Isn't it in the best interest of retailers to catalog their library? And isn't it entirely possible for a movie to be in multiple categories? There's no technical reason why this is not possible. A movie title can show up in IR, MILFS, lesbian, and anal all at once - as long as those aspects are featured. I will concede that it certainly could be trickier to categorize a film which is not exclusively catering to any one niche. But that's just the cost of presenting a product with a wide array of niches, which may differ from scene to scene. I also would agree that a great IR flick does not need to have overtly racialized marketing. But I also do not put too much stock into porn titles or covers. Some can seem really provocative or even offensive, but the actual product is rather conservative. That would probably result in consumers feeling misled or even disappointed. So it's obviously not good business to market something different than the theme or tone of the product actually is. But sometimes studios simply find provocative or even potentially offensive titles enormously useful in marketing their product. I think especially in porn, consumers are not easily offended by titles or box art captions and stuff that is deliberately edgy. Cuz it sells. [Link]

Author

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fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 6:42PM

It seems like the studio heads were saying waiting to shoot IR for a bigger payday is not a reality for most actresses..Black males know they have a negotiating advantage and they use it. The industry has to make some tough decisions on how it is uses race or do away with altogether.

[Link]

Joey Numbers
Member

93 Posts
1/16

Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 6:50PM

^^^I'm sure they know they are both high quality studios. Jules Jordan said, "but in general when we call to book people of all types, we get the higher rate quotes." I don't see how you can jump to the conclusion that the talent is charging more to do IR. Asking for more to do a scene for Blacked than you would for BangBros is different than asking BangBros for more to do a scene with black talent than you would with white.
>>the very same thing some white stars do at least for their first scene, the male guys do that for every scene...
There are white stars who charge a different rate for IR, not just their first. A number of actresses and directors have confirmed this.
Edited by - joey numbers on 4/14/2016 6:51:44 PM

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Zy28
Deactivated User

251 Posts
2/12

Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 9:26PM

No one knows who charges what. Because Jules parachuted in, dropped two ambiguous statements with 0 details, and the supporters of white talent who are bribed to work with Black talent are ecstatic as they think that equalizes the situation. It doesn't.
It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has more melanin.
Now since Jules didn't wish to elaborate one can conclude that his practice of paying bribe money to white talent to work with Black talent continues and if Black male talent are being paid more it's because they're bigger stars. e.g. Manuel is paid more for a scene than a new white guy in porn. Or Lex is paid more than a newbie male porn star. Which is logical.
They're not being paid bribe money to work with white talent. So no the situations are not equivalent. Odd some are giddily thinking it is. When it clearly is not.

Are they charging more because they're bigger stars? Of course. Are they charging more because they have to work with white talent? Of course not. So not the same. So why try to act like it?
Edited by - Zy28 on 4/14/2016 9:29:22 PM

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DiamondJackman
Deactivated User

Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy
501 Posts
10/15

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:28AM

JJ made deceptive comments without given a full explanation.

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LCF

All-Star Member

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10364 Posts
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Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 8:58AM

^
LOL guys you're so funny trying to climb a mirror with soapy hands , your double standard is SO apparent , it's almost incredible

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 9:03AM

Very much the same white girls do when asked to do IR for the first time, but hey no if you are white and have contract power to earn as much as you can from a scene then you have to step down when it's a plack male you're paired with, that would be racist
If you are a black male though, charging more for a scene then no,they are just using their "negotiating advantage"
and yet you don't see any inconsistency in such views?

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 9:16AM

Zy28 wrote:
LCF wrote:
^
Yeah black men charging more for shooting with white girls , really distracts from the issue, it doesn't fit , at all with the whole drama many created out there
Click to expand
No one knows who charges what. Because Jules parachuted in, dropped two ambiguous statements with 0 details, and the supporters of white talent who are bribed to work with Black talent are ecstatic as they think that equalizes the situation. It doesn't.
It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has more melanin.
Now since Jules didn't wish to elaborate one can conclude that his practice of paying bribe money to white talent to work with Black talent continues and if Black male talent are being paid more it's because they're bigger stars. e.g. Manuel is paid more for a scene than a new white guy in porn. Or Lex is paid more than a newbie male porn star. Which is logical.
They're not being paid bribe money to work with white talent. So no the situations are not equivalent. Odd some are giddily thinking it is. When it clearly is not.
MimeFreak wrote:
julesjordanvideo wrote:
What about black guys charging me a higher rate than most companies when I shoot them? I feel exploited lol
Click to expand
Awe man. Tell me about it.
Click to expand
Are they charging more because they're bigger stars? Of course. Are they charging more because they have to work with white talent? Of course not. So not the same. So why try to act like it?
Edited by - Zy28 on 4/14/2016 9:29:22 PM
Click to expand

Details?
what details ? do you want a copy of the check?
He said they charge him more , the scenes are IR what more details do you need, just take a look at his site, or at the latest issues , say the latest 15 years for example and you will notice that's almost all IR with very few black on black single scenes every now and then.
How moral is it to charge more to shoot with someone with less melanin?
How the lots of Asians he shoots fit with your picture?
All of your post here only says one thing the charges depend on the worthiness of the scene, the more it's worth the more to earn.
So if the black talent on a JJV movie charges more why shouldn't the model? Is she worth it? If the answer is yes than it is the VERY SAME PRACTICE the black talents are doing, they charge depending on the value of the scene. If the answer is not, rest assured nobody is going to pay her anything more than her usual rates , no matter how much she thinks otherwise.

Edited by - LCF on 4/15/2016 9:32:39 AM

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 9:23AM

A what?
He said that black talents charge him more than they do for other companies
Mimefreak weighted in and confirmed the habit as usually practiced with him too.
Then JJV added that everybody does when they shoot for him
That means that neither is racism they all just try to earn as much as possible, EVERYONE of them
What explanation do you want to know? How much is a dollar in American currency?
Do you need further explanations?
How much is a quarter dollar? A dime? no wait I forgot we need a full detailed explanation about how much a buck is worth , it's porn after all
Edited by - LCF on 4/15/2016 9:25:00 AM

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DiamondJackman
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501 Posts
10/15

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:11PM

^Mike Quasar confirmed that there are discriminatory practices going on in the industry. Other black and white male and females in the industries have corroborated Mike's claims. So what more do you want?
I really don't care for Minme freak, because he JJ are just trying to play the contrarian game.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:21PM

^If a producer expects to make more than usual off of a scene, it is right and just for that producer to pay a pornstar more for that scene.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:42PM

From reading this topic, I think the popular opinion is you are wrong. The producer should exploit the performers; pay them as little as possible since any other pay structure is some sort of bribery; keep mass profits for themselves.

[Link]

Zy28
Deactivated User

251 Posts
2/12

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:55PM

LCF wrote:
Details?
what details ? do you want a copy of the check?
He said they charge him more , the scenes are IR what more details do you need, just take a look at his site, or at the latest issues , say the latest 15 years for example and you will notice that's almost all IR with very few black on black single scenes every now and then.
How moral is it to charge more to shoot with someone with less melanin?
How the lots of Asians he shoots fit with your picture?
All of your post here only says one thing the charges depend on the worthiness of the scene, the more it's worth the more to earn.
So if the black talent on a JJV movie charges more why shouldn't the model? Is she worth it? If the answer is yes than it is the VERY SAME PRACTICE the black talents are doing, they charge depending on the value of the scene. If the answer is not, rest assured nobody is going to pay her anything more than her usual rates , no matter how much she thinks otherwise.
Edited by - LCF on 4/15/2016 9:32:39 AM
Click to expand

Details, which will never be forthcoming, such as who asked for increased pay. Because if it's the bigger male stars asking for more pay, then it's logical.

If it's based on the reasoning of, "well the white girls are asking for more pay out of racially stunted reasoning so I'll ask for more pay too." Then logical and good business sense.
And if JJ and Mime et al want to put an end to it they'll need to stop bribing girls with more pay to work with Black talent.
And the problem LCF is you're trying to equate talent asking for a higher fee because they're a bigger star being equivalent to someone wanted extra money to work with a Black person.
They're not the same.
Also trying to decouple race from the issue to make it about worthiness instead doesn't hold water as it's still race that determines the "worthiness" or "popularity" of the scene by the biased metric of some producers/directors.
As for Asian talent, Keni Styles stated his scenes weren't considered IR. So no extra money for the selling point of 1st Asian!
As for Asian women talent, their scenes with white talent or vice versa aren't sold as "1st with an Asian person!" or "1st with a white person!" so they don't get extra pay.
I trust you can see the difference.
Edited by - Zy28 on 4/15/2016 2:59:17 PM

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Joey Numbers
Member

93 Posts
1/16

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 2:59PM

^^^Then we have to ask ourselves if all scenes between black men and white women are more profitable? If not, then basing rates on that factor alone is not just nor right.
^^I wouldn't have a problem if the performers asked for higher rates for all scenes which are going to be packaged and promoted for niche audiences like fauxcest and IR. It's charging a higher rate for any scene that involves sex with a black man that I find discriminatory.
Just questioning the practice is treated like exploitation of the female talent.
Edited by - joey numbers on 4/15/2016 3:00:19 PM

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Mister Fahrenheit

All-Star Member

Meh
4655 Posts
10/13

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:06PM

Pay scales in porn seem kind of weird to me. I've seen retailers on this forum talk about how G/G is their highest selling genre. Yet G/G rates are about as low as you can get. So is pay about how much profit a scene could potentially make, or is it about the perceived increasing extremity of sex acts? There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it.

[Link]

misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:09PM

^^IR firsts are often expected to be more profitable. To my knowledge, there is no such expectation for first fauxcest. As for pornstars charging more for IR scenes that aren't firsts, I've already said that that may be problematic. It depends on whether or not producers expect those scenes to be more profitable than ordinary b/gs.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/15/2016 3:09:50 PM

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 3:16PM

^^In the case of IR, if it were only a question of IR being viewed as more extreme then paying more for IR in general, and a lot more for IR firsts specifically, would be the normative practice. The problem is that we don't know how common it is for pornstars to get paid more for IR scenes that aren't firsts. However, critics within the industry generally focus on big paydays for IR firsts, and I would think that if getting paid more for IR overall were as common they would spend more time criticizing that too.

Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/15/2016 3:18:45 PM

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DiamondJackman
Deactivated User

Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy
501 Posts
10/15

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 5:23PM

I don't really know where you are going with this assertion? Please elaborate......MISS!

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 5:55PM

^My comment was clear and straightforward, and in any case you and I already had this conversation on page 31.

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fredgee
Deactivated User

350 Posts
12/13

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 6:04PM

How can a agreement be reached on this subject when expert's opinion don't count. It is not race that makes a bigger payday it box office appeal. If a white woman with a big following did a 1st IR she could get paid more. If a random chick did it no one would notice. I been saying there are too many random chicks the turn over rate is too high.

[Link]

Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 7:41PM

The fundamental misunderstanding here comes from people not realizing that there is a correlation between what something is worth and what it costs...

This would be like complaining that the fashion industry is so sexist and discriminatory on account of the fact that male models only make 1/10th of what female models do.
Disparity does not necessarily mean there is some sort of ethical problem. Things are they way they are in certain industries because of consumers. To blame the industry is to blame the consumers.
DiamondJackman, with all due respect, your grievance (and not just yours, but those few others here in agreement with you) requires a victim. But there is no victim. Not everyone will make the same amount of money in an industry that exists precisely to cater to consumer tastes.
Short fat guys with small dicks are not going to make as much as shredded monsters with giant dongers. This isn't body-shaming discrimination. It's just common sense.
Not everything is equal. Not everything is fair. But FWIW, there are plenty of black performers who are eating well off this system. I'm sure Flash Brown has a nice contract with Blacked. Shane must have a deal with New Sensations, since he seems virtually exclusive to them, and then of course Lex has a deal with Evil Angel, and yet he can still work with Jules Jordan too, so that's probably one of the best deals in all of porn, for guys anyway. And Mandingo could get a deal with anyone. Rico Strong could probably get a deal too, but he may be better off as a free agent. But I would not doubt that Rico's rate is above average, cuz he gots a big dick and he's a very solid and reliable performer. Rob Piper seems really popular too, and the list goes on.
There would be a very compelling case if all these popular black male performers were not being compensated properly. It would be a legit grievance to learn they were being paid less than average. But it would require incredibly poor business logic for that to be the case.

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LCF

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Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 2:57AM

You just admitted that you handpick what confirms your previously decided opinion and discard whatever doesn't fit with it.As a result whatever source you bring in is flawed from the very beginning.
Especially because you also tend to interpret those in accordance in a even more forwarded way.
Mike Quasar for example didn't say whether they were firsts or regular scenes, since many already said here that the large majority only charge more for they very first scene , even superstars., then such detail would have been of importance.
Riley Reid has been reported here for admittedly having charged more for her first but that only
Adriana Chechick had argument with mason because the latter only paid her regular rate and refused to pay her "first" because it wasn't a first, hence , again ,only her first was charged more.
We're talking superstars POTY material
Why anybody wants to pay more lesser stars but doesn't with the brightest names?
Do really those obscure stars have a bigger "dealing advantage" than those superstars?
I don't believe this

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DiamondJackman
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Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 3:45AM

Please elaborate.

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:24AM

^ It's been explained ad nauseum throughout this thread.
1st time IR scenes are worth more than the average scene. It's like we've gone 30+ pages into this discussion and you still haven't acknowledged this. It's like you've got a block against this very basic fundamental concept which the whole issue is predicated upon.
Is there something about this you do not understand? If these scenes were not worth more, then why in the world would producers keep paying extra to get the exclusive rights to a performers 1st IR?
If a performer's 1st IR was not actually worth more, and she wanted to charge you more for it, wouldn't you and all other producers with at least 2 brain cells to rub together just tell her to fuck off? Why pay more for it if it's not worth it? Do you think Jules Jordan or Greg Lansky or any other producer paying extra for exclusive 1st time IR scenes are just stupid? Why do you suppose people in the industry pay extra? Because it's racist? How does that even make sense to more greatly incentivize IR if the industry wanted to discriminate against blacks? Wouldn't the opposite be true if that was the case? Wouldn't they pay females LESS if they did IR? Wouldn't that be how you discourage IR? The irony is that by paying extra, the industry is doing the exact opposite of discouraging IR. They're valuing it above average scene value.
This is not the industry saying "ew! black guys? Don't do that" and discouraging females from doing IR. This is the industry saying "hooray for IR. This is so amazing we'll pay EXTRA for it." All the female performers who may charge more want to know is, well what's it worth to you then since it's so amazing? That's just negotiating. Don't you believe people are entitled to know what they are selling is worth?
It takes two to tango, and in order to sell something you need a buyer.
As someone mentioned recently, the only way to stop this surcharge practice is for people to stop paying it. But why would they stop paying extra for it if they still profit off the backside? Apparently it works.
It would however be interesting if major studios made some kind arrangement in which they all agree not to pay extra. But fat chance of that happening. Could there be a moratorium? In the end, the studios would all win because it means they all save money on it.
But seriously. If in the highly unlikely event that all the major studios did honor a moratorium, that just opens up the door for a new company to capitalize by investing with the status quo scheme, paying extra for those 1st IRs, and then they become the #1 brand for it. Cuz all the girls would go to whoever pays the most.
It's as futile as trying to ice skate uphill. It would be like trying to stop people from gambling on sports. Good luck with that.
Finally, simply not enough people are concerned by this because there's no real victim. When a grievance is aired, it requires a victim for people to find it a compelling issue. There needs to be a face on it. Who is the one being victimized? More people would care if they knew why, don't you think? So tell them why.

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DiamondJackman
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501 Posts
10/15

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 8:02AM

^I don't support discrimination..period.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:02AM

^
Then you ought to fight your crusade starting from where it all begins; since B/G costs more than G/G, your crusade should start here before going into all the niches.

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murdock
Member

I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV
911 Posts
4/06

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:04AM

^ Do you prefer IR porn?

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:07AM

I prefer feature films and I prefer hot sex scenes that fit in with the narrative with performers who stay in character. The color of the performer's skin doesn't enter into whether I prefer a scene or not.

[Link]

whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:24AM

^
I could be here all day complaining about why pretty much no one casts black men in features anymore. I think you might have been able to find a couple if you look at all of the best movie categories at AVN last year (best comedy, best parody, best drama).

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 9:53AM

I can't say whether representatively there are a lot or not. I don't watch a ton of modern features. Mostly because most of them don't deserve to have the "feature" tag applied to them. Throughout time there have always been some black male and female performers I have enjoyed.
Off topic but many, many, many years ago I was working on a script, of which most got lost during a computer crash, where one of the roles was written for Lexington Steele. Even if I had found a buyer, it never could have been made with the casting I had in mind since most were big name stars.

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whatsatelephonebill
Senior Member

2935 Posts
10/11

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 10:32AM

^
It's one of the reasons that I honestly prefer vignette porn to full on features nowadays. I still get a little semblance of a story, but I get more diverse casting among the performers as well. And the worst part is that the people I think are the best at directing features don't use black male performers at all. For example, Jacky St. James just shot her first scenes with black male talent last year, and it was a vignette movie in their "Hotwife" line. Stormy Daniels doesn't (though Wicked is better than most about this, and Brad Armstrong has specifically used some in the Asa features he's shot). It's a huge part of the reason that Nica Noelle was my favorite director in terms of features, and why I was a little disappointed when she completely moved away from shooting straight porn.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 10:35AM

I did elaborate, on page 31.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 10:41AM

Additionally, since Zy28 wrote that "It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has more melanin", I hope that he also interprets b/g itself the same way, ie. "It's morally vile to require a bribe to work with someone who has a penis."

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DiamondJackman
Deactivated User

Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy
501 Posts
10/15

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 1:26PM

^The hypocrisy in all it's entirety. If women in porn were being paid being less, feminists like you would be all over it.
Edited by - Diamondjackman on 4/16/2016 4:54:08 PM

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Joey Numbers
Member

93 Posts
1/16

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 2:06PM

The typical girl/girl scene is less physically demanding than the typical boy/girl scene. Some performers even schedule girl/girl scenes to allow their bodies to recover from boy/girl ones.

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misspornUSA
Senior Member

I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine).
8737 Posts
11/13

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 3:41PM

^^I don't know what "hypocrisy" you are talking about. The fact is that you have not demonstrated that a problem actually exists. Going back to Riley Reid's blog post, her first IR probably made Jules Jordan lots of money and she deserved to get paid more than usual for it. I hope that Mandingo, who definitely was part of the draw for that scene and not a stunt cock, got paid above average for Riley's first IR as well. What's the problem?
Edited by - misspornUSA on 4/16/2016 3:42:16 PM

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Aya
Senior Member

All The Cool Girls Are Lesbians
7439 Posts
6/14

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 3:41PM

^But are pay rates actually based on how physically demanding scenes are or how popular they are?

That's a damn shame.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:06PM

Actually, performer rates seem to be relatively standard for the arts and from what I see make perfect sense. A performer, or agent, tries to get as much as possible per scene. Depending on the company, budget, and presumed income, they will get more or less for each scene. The more 'in demand' a scene is, the more the performer, or agent, can try to get. Go wander around in the Blacked thread for instance. People there are requesting specific performers all the time. The more demand for one, the more that performer can charge, and get paid, for that scene. Look at girl/girl only performers when they do their first B/G that are highly demanded. Performers can also choose to take scenes that pay less because they like the company, director, etc and want to be in that title. I am not sure why this is "a damn shame," this is capitalism how it is supposed to work. Most careers in the arts, be one a director, writer, painter, musician, etc, are like this as far as pay works. The more demand for something and the more that something will make, the more you can get.
Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:07:33 PM

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Mister Fahrenheit

All-Star Member

Meh
4655 Posts
10/13

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:08PM

^ But what I was getting at was that there seems to be a very strong demand for G/G content, yet the pay isn't commensurate with that. I believe it was Jacco in another thread who said G/G content was his biggest seller. Am I wrong about the popularity of G/G?
Edit: Found Jacco's post, speaking about the top categories on his site:

Obviously that's just one retailer, so I'm not sure how representative that is.
Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 4/16/2016 4:12:02 PM

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:23PM

^
Girl/Girl appears to be the best selling in a lot of places, but you don't see all sorts of threads here for instance clamoring for Actress X to do a Girl/Girl scene with Actress Y. Whereas you see all sorts of threads for G/G actresses to do B/G, B/G actresses to do anal, B/G actresses to do IR. I am sure that, for instance, Devinn Lane and Julia Ann got far more money to do Beautiful/Nasty than Renee LaRue did. And probably everyone in Beautiful/Nasty got paid more than anyone in A Girl's Affair 53.
Edited to add, just because a genre does better doesn't mean one title will do better. I am sure rates paid are based off of how much a company expects that performer, male or female, will bring to the profits of the production. And I am also sure that listed rates aren't always what someone gets for their role in a specific title.
Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:26:41 PM

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Mister Fahrenheit

All-Star Member

Meh
4655 Posts
10/13

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:27PM

^ Yeah, but vocal demand on a message board doesn't equal actual market demand. The hardcore gonzo audience here is often at odds with mainstream popularity. The claim is that because first IR's are more profitable, performers are in the right to demand higher pay. But if G/G scenes are more profitable than B/G scenes, wouldn't the same logic still hold?

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:41PM

I suspect that if you got the rates that lesser known performers are given for IR for small companies they probably are the same as B/G rates.
And no, vocal demand on a message board doesn't equate to market demand, but you can also see it on Twitter. You can see fans of Performer X saying to retweet, et,c things to get more attention.
Edited by - flash on 4/16/2016 4:42:40 PM

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Gore Gore Girl

Doctor of the Erotic Arts

7238 Posts
1/09

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 4:48PM

Just as an aside, I enjoyed FAMILY SECRETS directed by Nica Noelle. The film didn't do well, and Nica told me she thinks it's because she purposefully refused to tag it as "IR"--she just wanted to make a movie with a racially diverse cast and not categorize it. It still trades in the taboo of interracial sex, but without any overt racialized marketing. Anyway, that's a feature, quite well done, and 50% of the cast are black.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:02PM

Thanks GGG, I will have to check that one out.

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Gore Gore Girl

Doctor of the Erotic Arts

7238 Posts
1/09

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:08PM

^ It got terrible reviews here on ADT, so be aware of that. Maybe I'm crazy but I thought it was good.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:41PM

As a fan of classics and features with plot do you think it is for me? I'll trust your judgment since we are all a bit crazy here.

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:03PM

Discrimination is meaningless without context.
You discriminate in your own life in several ways you don't even realize.
We all discriminate in our daily lives, especially when it comes to matters of taste.
Do you watch a lot of gay male on male porn? No? Why are you discriminating?
Do you eat a lot of sugar rich junk food? It tastes great. But it's bad for you. I personally have been cutting back on it. This is just another example of discrimination, and one which is actually highly healthy.
Whenever you focus on one thing with preferences affecting your judgement, you're already discriminating. Any time you show partiality for or against a person or thing because of how it is categorized, you're discriminating.
That doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad thing. It's actually quite natural.
Virtually from birth male and female babies discriminate with the toys they are given. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with this. Again, who is the victim? Just saying discrimination is wrong is not useful.
IMO as long as people are not being hostile or antagonistic, I think we can live with a certain degree of taste discrimination.
I am sure everyone would wish that the things they like were also liked by more people, that way they'd see more of it being produced. But it is selfish to attack others whose taste may not sync with yours.
Edited by - Melvyn on 4/16/2016 6:29:13 PM

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Aya
Senior Member

All The Cool Girls Are Lesbians
7439 Posts
6/14

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:10PM

Well Girlsway for an example has plenty of demand on twitter and from members of the site itself for specific performers to be shot, and for certain pairings of performers to be done. So I would suspect the ladies in question could in theory and might actually be getting more based on the demand. I would hope a more in demand performer like Shyla Jennings isn't being paid the same rate as a relative unknown simply because it's G/G.
I could see other companies paying lower rates by taking advantage of the perception that G/G isn't that popular, even though their sales numbers may say other wise. I mean what's to stop a site from seeing that their G/G scenes sell twice as much as their B/G ones, but keeping it to themselves and paying the performers less?

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:14PM

Women in modeling get paid 10-20 times as much as men.
Giselle Bunchen makes more money than her husband. Whose job do you honestly think is harder? Yet she has earned about twice as much as he has.
Go fight about that. Tell the fashion industry why it's so unfair. That's a staggering disparity in wages. That's a REAL gender pay gap. Not some 5% difference that disappears when critical factors are taken into consideration. 10,000%-20,000% difference.
I would love to see a campaign against the gender pay gap in modeling. Not because I think it's important or necessary, but because it's actually a staggering disparity in pay according to gender. So until that is even acknowledged, which it really isn't because no one cares, how can you expect rational and objective people to get up in arms over a marginal % difference in pay?
I'm not exactly sure what the current average rates in porn are, but I think female performers make at least 2-3 times as much as male performers. Or at least 50% more. Females also become way more popular, and as their popularity rises, they can charge even higher rates.
Again, I must reiterate the question: how can we worry about a 5, 10, or ever 15% pay difference, when black guys can actually make more than the average male performers, and women can make 200% more? Maybe even 500% more?

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:16PM

FWIW, I have noticed lesbian movies are doing quite well on XRent. There's always a couple or more of those Girlfriend Films in the top 10. They're a really popular brand.

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Melvyn
Senior Member

2797 Posts
12/12

Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 6:27PM

See, this is when it becomes cutting off the nose to spite the face.
It makes no sense to basically remove a very helpful category tag, thus making it harder for the target audience to find. Why do this? I understand the intention, and maybe it's worth applauding, but it just goes to PROVE that the IR category is very helpful and not a bad thing, which misguided people seem to charge.
It's not as if adding a tag is going to make the product worse. It's not as if a product can only have 1 tag either. Isn't it in the best interest of retailers to catalog their library? And isn't it entirely possible for a movie to be in multiple categories? There's no technical reason why this is not possible.
A movie title can show up in IR, MILFS, lesbian, and anal all at once - as long as those aspects are featured.
I will concede that it certainly could be trickier to categorize a film which is not exclusively catering to any one niche. But that's just the cost of presenting a product with a wide array of niches, which may differ from scene to scene.
I also would agree that a great IR flick does not need to have overtly racialized marketing. But I also do not put too much stock into porn titles or covers. Some can seem really provocative or even offensive, but the actual product is rather conservative. That would probably result in consumers feeling misled or even disappointed. So it's obviously not good business to market something different than the theme or tone of the product actually is.
But sometimes studios simply find provocative or even potentially offensive titles enormously useful in marketing their product. I think especially in porn, consumers are not easily offended by titles or box art captions and stuff that is deliberately edgy. Cuz it sells.

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