When a girl enters porn and doesn't do any sort of career pacing is thinking short term and risks boring her audience sooner. No matter how much a fan might like a girl at some point you'll simply burn out on watching her. If she enters porn doing everything fairly early that burn out point will come faster. There have been lots of girls I liked over the years and followed their work that didn't do anal, IR, gangbangs or whatever and was content to watch them doing just the basic straight forward stuff. After a time my interest in them will start to wane. But if they start to do anal that will renew my interest and I'm back buying her work. Now she's extended her longevity. You're going say if she was doing anal from the beginning she would've sold more but not really because she was able to sell her fans the more vanilla work that she wouldn't have been able to if it had to compete with her anal scenes. So by holding off the fans bought her vanilla scenes and when interest started to drop she offered something new and got fans to start buying her new anal work. The fans just bought more stuff (perhaps twice as many) because she held something back. Next, the anal stuff is beginning to become nothing special and perhaps interest starts to drop off a bit them BAM she reels you back in with IR or a gangbang or something from KINK. Now that fans are excited by what she's doing and her star is back on the rise more directors and the directors who decided they were done with shooting her are interested again. If a person is a fan of girls moreso than actual sex acts they've go this all the time. If you actually buy porn you'll know that you've bought stuff with a particular girl and as time goes on her work usually gets better and more intense as time goes on to the point that you won't really have a desire to watch her old stuff. That's pacing. You build up your work resume by doing a bit more over time. All along the way giving fans reason to keep following you without losing interest. Of course some of you will call bullshit on all this because you can't or refuse to see things from any perspective other than what you want the girl to do and could care less about the girl building a lasting career but that's nothing new. Of course there are exceptions to this rule and some girls can hit the ground doing everything straight out the gate but those girls are the exceptions. Just as there are girls who can have a long and successful career not doing anal, IR, or the more hardcore stuff. As far as pacing goes it isn't whether a gorl should do it...it's more about finding the right pace to introduce new things.
Last I checked the one who affirms anything MUST give proof , it's not the other way around If I say you're a girl who's the one supposed to provide evidence? me or you?
I would like to see some verifiable data/evidence that "pacing" is actually a reliable strategy. There are an awful lot of assumptions with trying to "pace" a porn career. I certainly would love to see the evidence that supports the idea that if/when you check everything off the checklist, you stop getting booked for scenes because you're "audience" is bored. Newsflash, the biggest audience(the audience outside of adt) has little to no interest in gangbangs, tap, dp's, etc. (regular anal and ir might have a slightly bigger audience). But regular vanilla b/g has always been and probably will be for a long time, the most popular porn. So the idea that once a porn star has done all the circuis acts they aren't that popular outside adt's bubble of gangbangs and dp's is qustionable. I will bite my tongue and leave well enough alone once someone shows me proof that "pacing" is an actual strategy.
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 10 2016 : 11:08AM
^^ Why does that matter? Seriously. Why do you care if someone is making good career decisions? Is it not their career to do with what they will? Has it not been established already that some performers are pacing their careers? Isn't that the point within the context of this discussion?
^sure they can(and should and will) do w/e they want with their carreer. I'm just tired of hearing that excuse. I would rather they stay silent than give their reasons for not doing certain acts actually.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 10 2016 : 12:43PM
As mere consumers we don't have access to nearly enough data either for or against pacing. Therefore, I defer to the most informed consensus, and that is people who are actually inside the industry. We have a reasonable basis on which to conclude that those people have greater access to the necessary data than you, I, whatsatelephonebill, or DiamondJackman (who appears to worship devoutly at the Church of Confirmation Bias).
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 10 2016 : 12:55PM
I agree "that there's isn't, and never has been, one correct way to handle your career" and I agree with the rest of that quote. I am not, not arguing that "waiting solely for the sake of a larger payday" (emphasis mine) is a good economic decision, nor have I ever argued such, nor as far I can recall have I ever heard/read anyone in the industry argue such. It is not what Bonnie Rotten stated in my quote of her, which started this phase of the discussion, and it is not what Canadian_Cindy explained in her posts either.I defer to the most informed consensus, which is made up of those who have the most access to the greatest amount of data. To my knowledge you are not one of those people. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/10/2016 12:58:46 PM
^ You're assuming that the people who makes these decisions en-masse (the agents are generally the ones who suggest to new performers what they should and shouldn't be available for) are looking at this statistically instead of anecdotally. I'm not. I didn't want to bring this up, because my memory is a bit fuzzy on where I read it from, but I remember reading somewhere that Speigler is one of those people who thinks you should be available for what you're willing to shoot (and if I'm wrong, he can come in and correct me), which part of the reason that you see so many of his performers available for so many things right off the bat or ramping their firsts up fairly quickly. I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass, I'm listening to people who are way more knowledgeable about the inner workings of the industry than I am, and processing what I hear from them (on both sides of the argument) and making my own decisions based on that. And also, while I said that pacing doesn't help your career, the counterpoint to that is that as far as we can tell, it doesn't hurt it either. It's just another way to manage your career, with its own pluses and minuses.You're seriously underestimating the amount of "exceptions" that already exist. Basically, you're thinking exceptions are women like Sasha Grey and Remy, girls who started off doing very hardcore scenes, as opposed to women who start off any further down the spectrum than basic b/g work. Like I already said, I get the psychological idea behind it, I just don't think it's true in today's industry at all, and it's done that way simply because it's always been done that way and most people with the ability to change it don't question it. And like I said, because there's no real proof that it hurts a career any more than it helps (in terms of popularity/notoriety), there's no reason for them to change it either. Edit: Or to put it in another succinct way, there's no proof that career pacing is helpful, and there's no proof that it's harmful. It just is. And without any conclusive evidence, there's no impetus for anyone to change. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 5/10/2016 5:11:03 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:16PM
^I'm assuming that people in the industry have access to lots of data that I do not, and are therefore in more of a position to arrived at an informed conclusion than I am.
Feel free to believe whatever you want to. I explained why I think it's beneficial from the girls point of view, I explained why from a consumer pov. When a girl enters the biz most agents will tell a girl to pace themselves. I tend to think that agents would know better than anyone about the advantages and disadvantages of career pacing because they've seen hundreds of girls career cycle and deal with directors and studios all the time and know what and why they do what they do. So if pacing didn't have any merit I seriously doubt they'd offer up that advice especially since it affects their bottom line. I've heard lots of people in porn talk about this and I have yet to hear someone give the advice to not pace a career. Of course just because they're in porn and have access to the people who make porn and talk with other actual porn performers, agents, directors, and know all that behind the scenes stuff doesn't mean they know more than the fan that watches porn but if I were a betting man I'd bet that maybe they do. Of course things are different today than it was years ago. Today I think the pacing is still important but the actual pace is sped up because there's less work than years ago. Plus, it all depends on the type of career a girl wants from porn. Perhaps some girls have no plan for a long term porn career and do as much as possible as quickly as possible. I still think the girls who do everything from the start and have long careers are the exceptions and other girls who tried it and burnt out quickly just don't get as much attention because they never achieved the type of fame that made people notice or care.
There is plenty of evidence that pacing is false in terms of interracial. Plenty of girls have fucked black guys from the start of their career and still had long careers. These women have been pointed out several times. Race should not be included in pacing of a career, it's a basic b/g scene. Fucking a black guy in your first year will not ruin your career. It's been proven.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - May 11 2016 : 1:25AM
^ "Fucking a black guy in your first year will not ruin your career. It's been proven." Yes, no argument here. "Race should not be included in pacing of a career, it's a basic b/g scene." Um, no, it's not, at least not as far as the industry is concerned. Face it, as long as scenes between a white female and black male are categorized "IR" (and not B/G), the act will always be viewed differently on a white pornstar's "porn checklist."
The entire argument of whether or not delaying IR will extend a stars' longevity is wildly speculative. And this idea that because a concept is tossed around within industry circles that it is automatically gospel is borderline hilarious. Recall, the popular sentiment for an extended period of time within the industry was that doing IR would cause a performers fan-base to abandon them (Lisa Ann, Tori Black, and countless others have testified as to hearing that from agents). I don't think there's any person at the moment who would actually argue that such a position is legitimate. The problem here is that we've seen stars in recent years adopt both strategies which result in pretty successful careers. Which leads me to believe that their longevity is not dependent upon whether or not they drag their feet on IR scenes. Edited by - high_flyin5 on 5/11/2016 2:42:22 AM
LOL , I'm assuming you buy a lot of non IR stuff it's basic boy girl right?No it's not , you guys are picking up those who made it and just assumed that since their IR scenes didn't ruin them then nobody else would be. It's wrong those whose career has been ruined by doing IR too early never made it , you wouldn't even know them , they're not big names and never have been. It's easy to prove anything when you pick big names , but just go on Blacked list all the names there who did IR very early and then put a list here and see how many of those are big or even just still around. Or out of blacked Abbey Rain did 8 IR scenes and an anal (IR) in her first ten , where is she? Alice Green? Just two examples Now I can't prove that doing IR and anal so early actually ruined their career ,but then again can't say it didn't either Edited by - LCF on 5/11/2016 8:18:38 AM
Do you all think half black men are often treated as white so they could work with women that don't do IR. It seems the industry pass them off as white to allow some women to keep saying they never did IR for that pay day. One is a guy named Alex Jones. He has worked with several women who don't do IR scenes and was passed off as white like with Abby Lee Brazil. He did do scenes with Miley May and Allie Haze for Monster of Cock and was considered black for them. Edited by - twodirection on 5/11/2016 8:41:21 AM
I was talking about pacing in general and not just the IR aspect. Pacing can include several different things with IR being just one of them. A girl could do IR but hold off on IR anal or a IR gangbang. They can do IR but not do anal. They can do IR but hold off doing threesomes. I don't remember anyone saying doing IR at any point will ruin a career. All I'm saying is that with some girls holding off a particular sex at or genre may help extend a career if/when it goes into a slump. It can get some fans or directors excited about a girl again. Also, keep in mind that although every girl will eventually go through a slump not every girl experiences the same type of career arc. Some girls peak popularity can last for a year(s) while others only last a few months. The girls who burn out are usually quickly forgotten and the successes are fondly remembered. So rattling off names of the successes just mean they didn't experience a slump or they retired before their slump became apparent. Lastly, most of the names being tossed out did pace their career but they just didn't hold out long on IR. They did it with other things.
^ I agree , in Blacked thread there's people complaining when a girl does three or even just two scenes , they call them rethreads , if it was for them they'd be already burn out after just one IR scene and move to the next one
Oh yeah...I don't think a girl should rush of to do IR right off the bat when there are companies like BLACKED offering up more money for firsts. It makes more sense for the girl and BLACKED if the girl has built a fanbase of some sort and is a known quanity so her first can have some weight behind it. The first IR of a girl most people don't know doesn't mean a whole lot.
Exactly. You can't tell either way, so saying that doing IR early is what messed up their career has no basis to it except your assumptions. Because, again, for every performer that did it early and wasn't successful, I can name you another example that did it early and is/was (to counter Abbey Rain and Alice Green I'll give you Piper Perri and August Ames).
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 11 2016 : 11:01AM
I don't think you understand what's actually being discussed here.You too don't appear to understand what's actually being discussed here. As Draxxx explained, we are debating the question of pacing in general. No one's said that pornstars should plan to shoot IR firsts last, so who's view are you two arguing against?
^ Well the topic isn't suppose to be about pacing in general. It's suppose to be about interracial, so people will assume that's what y'all are talking about. Excuse us.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 11 2016 : 12:48PM
^Obviously IR firsts are included, it's just that we're not separating them from other firsts, as if waiting to shoot IR itself or another IR first is distinct from the overall strategy of spacing out one's firsts. See page 37 for more background.
I can put dozens for any star you put I can at least double the number , and you can't assume that doing IR doesn't affect a career just because a few of superstars weren't
^^ If you want to, you're welcome to try. As long as we lay out a few ground rules, like how long after their first scene their first IR has to come for them not to have been pacing (since very few performers have their first scene as IR).
You have to look at pacing in general or as a whole because the whole idea behind pacing is to hold off on doing something you can do later if your career needs a boost. Some girls save IR for later in their career and some girls save anal or ganbangs or harder edged sex for later. There's no set chart that has to be followed not every girl chooses IR to be their first or second hold out for later. With IR being a potential for a big payday or showcase that could give a girl high exposure or in the case of BLACKED perhaps even an award, IR isn't something a girl will want to hold out on too long because there's no way of knowing how long this trend may last. There's a balancing act going on with "firsts"...Jump in too early and the girl might not make the kind of money she could've if she was more of a known/popular performer. Late too long and interest could wane and fans and/or directors might not care as much later or the whole big IR payday thing could fade away. Also, you have to consider some of the hold outs may be holding waiting for the offers from a particular studio while they turn down less popular or big studios. A "first" IR for DIGITAL SIN probably won't be as career boosting as doing it at BLACKED. But then, they might never get that call from BLACKED. Should they take the medium sized big payday or hold on waiting for the big one? Lots of thing to consider.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
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Posted - May 12 2016 : 2:13AM
^ This. I agree with pretty much every point you've made in this thread.
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - May 12 2016 : 2:39AM
No this thread is about IR pacing. Wy move the goalpost? "Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day" Edited by - Diamondjackman on 5/12/2016 4:45:19 AM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - May 12 2016 : 5:43AM
^ Uh, you're the one who moved the goal posts with your response to misspornusa's clear question below, that excluded IR when it came to effectivness of pacing.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - May 12 2016 : 6:07AM
I was more referring to the notion that a girl is stigmatized by a significant portion of the porn-buying public once she does a scene with a black guy. I don't think that's an issue in this day 'n age; girls no longer have to worry about fans viewing them as somehow being "tainted" for having sex with a black guy in a scene. Except for a few racist trolls that might drop in on their Twitter page, a girl's fans aren't going to like her any less simply because she did a black dude on camera.
^either you're underestimating the number of racist porn fans or the people inside porn are overestimating. Because this is what porn agents and others are telling some pornstars still, no?
Just check out Blacked and ask yourself how many of such stars are still in the biz? How many of them become big? Look if I mention Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Barack Obama and a few award winners black actors should I assume that there's no racism in the States?
^ Except you can do the exact same thing with ANY porn site, especially ones that tend towards shooting new performers like Blacked does. Like go look at Amateur Allure and see how many of those performers are still around. Or Teen Fidelity. Performers in general don't tend to stick around very long, and that's true of performers that do and don't do IR. Which is kind of my entire point, that you're only looking at examples that prove your point, and ignoring that there are just as many examples out there that don't.
^ Point is you just dismiss doing IR as a cause affecting one's career , doing scenes for other sites proves nothing some sites such as Teens do Porn or amateur allure seek out chicks who are one and done , Blacked does not all those they hire were in porn month before they booked them and continue after they shoot with them, sadly this time is rather short as it appears. bottom line, you can't say doing IR won't affect a career, it's proven. it's not
First of all, I said Teen Fidelity, not Teens Do Porn, they're entirely different sites. Teen Fidelity doesn't seek out one and dones, and I doubt they have a much higher rate of performers who aren't in the industry anymore than Blacked does. Second of all, you're still missing my point. Which is that any "proof" that pacing affects a career is completely anecdotal and not based on anything resembling an actual study. There's literally no "proof" that pacing has any affect, positive or negative, on a career outside of looking at this performer and saying "hey, she paced and has been around a while" and then looking at this other performer and saying "hey, she did everything quickly and then quit, it must have been because she didn't pace herself" without any other knowledge of the situation. And you completely deflected from my point that Blacked doesn't have a higher drop-out rate than any other site that focuses primarily on shooting teens/newbies. You look at any of them, and just like Blacked, you'll see some women who became stars, some women who became consistent performers (but not stars), and some women who quit soon after they shot their scenes.
Don't act obtuse, you're discussing the efficacy of pacing within a thread about interracial . So yes, I'm specifically addressing the issue of pacing out IR as a career extending move. Even if one were to dial that out to pacing all sex acts, it's entirely a game of speculation as to whether or not a stars career would be extended by any length of time by significantly spacing out IR, anal, DP (etc.) Edited by - high_flyin5 on 5/13/2016 12:57:02 AM
And how precisely does that operate in opposition to what I originally said? You're taking a popular sentiment within an industry and assuming that it is the de facto proof of the matter. When (as I already stated), sentiments get perpetuated which simply do not line up with the reality of the situation. If we were to adopt your stance, we should have all just accepted that no performer could do IR otherwise she'd lose her entire fan-base In this case, it's even more abstract because we're talking about proving a negative. A star can say "well, if I would have started doing *blank* right out of the gate it would have shortened my career". There's no way to affirm or disprove that argument, once again leaving us with speculation and just a popular sentiment. Edited by - high_flyin5 on 5/13/2016 1:20:27 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 13 2016 : 1:24AM
^In my opinion our lack of access to the data we need to arrive at a truly informed conclusion about pacing leaves us with two reasonable options: 1. Agnosticism. 2. Deference to the general consensus of people who have access to the necessary data. I choose the latter. I'm not aware of there being an in-industry consensus that "no performer could do IR otherwise she'd lose her entire fan-base." Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/13/2016 1:25:14 AM Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/13/2016 1:28:51 AM
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - May 13 2016 : 1:26AM
Considering the prevalence (and popularity) of IR porn nowadays, I find it hard to believe that there are still agents out there that promote such an outdated theory, not to mention, that there'd be any girl in the biz gullible enough to believe it.
To quote what I said the first time "Recall, the popular sentiment for an extended period of time within the industry was that doing IR would cause a performers fan-base to abandon them (Lisa Ann, Tori Black, and countless others have testified as to hearing that from agents). I don't think there's any person at the moment who would actually argue that such a position is legitimate.". My point is that just because a sentiment is popular within the industry doesn't make it a verifiable reality, as has been evidenced with the canard about IR potentially damaging a performer's popularity. Also, this consensus you speak of only seems to exist among agents of the stars themselves. From producers and directors (like Mike Quasar or Lexington Steele) there is a much more split opinion as to whether or not pacing actually is a career extending move. If you prefer deferring to the opinion of a segment within the industry, that's fine. I'm just not thrilled with the way some are presenting the act of pacing as if it's a concrete method of career longevity
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Posted - May 10 2016 : 12:28AM
