I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Jul 31 2015 : 8:52PM
Did you watch the interview that Melvyn (and myself) linked to on page 19? It's interesting to me that both women on the show seem to regard the IR system as a bit ridiculous. Why do you think that is? Likewise, Olivia Austin called the system "ridiculous" earlier in this thread. Other pornstars have expressed similar sentiments. I think that a lot of these pornstars believe that the IR system makes business sense while at the same recognizing that the system is socially backwards and probably racist.
The reason there haven't been guys to rise up and replace the guys you name is because the top guys are all smart enough to keep their rates reasonable so they can continue getting so there's no real need to turn to the lesser named talent for the most part. However, those guys did price themselves out of budget of most of the porn companies don't think for a minute the lesser know guys won't get their shots and some of them if given a chance to shine would become the next big thing. Some of the top black guys' rep is built off performance skills but some are built solely on penis size. It's not at all hard to believe that given a chance some of the lesser known guys could become tomorrow's stars because some of those guys are already better performers than some of the guys some people consider the top guys. At some point those top guys will walk away from porn and the newer guys will step in take their place. It's not like when the top guys leave we'll see less porn because those guys are irreplacable.
We've gone over this repeatedly. You can keep showing examples of people not agreeing with it but it won't change my stance. I understand that you and others don't like the system and think it's racist. If the business aspect were taken away from it, yeah, it would be a messed up thing. But since the the porn industry is business and people make a living from it and people producing porn need to do what makes them money I will never ignore the business side. If I totally ignore the business side and get stuck on what's fair or right then there's a long list of injustices I'd disagree with because I'm not just going to cherry pick the ones that suit me interests. What about the most obvious one....Men get paid consideribly less than women even though the men do most of the heavy lifting and great male performers are much harder to find. If we all really chose to moral and PC about the fairness in porn that would be a top concern...yet it doesn't seem to most bother fans. THAT'S RIDICULOUS. Did you watch the interview that Melvyn (and myself) linked to on page 19? It's interesting to me that both women on the show seem to regard the GENDER system as a bit ridiculous. Why do you think that is? Likewise, Olivia Austin called the system "ridiculous" earlier in this thread. Other pornstars have expressed similar sentiments. I think that a lot of these pornstars believe that the GENDER system makes business sense while at the same recognizing that the system is socially backwards and probably sexist. See what I did above? If that were taking place in the real world people would be outraged and wouldn't stand for it. But in the business world of porn it's accepted and makes sense. My feelings are the same when it comes to the business practices of IR porn. Just as I mentioned earlier with the female soccer team vs their male counterparts in soccer in regards to pay, as long as the business aspect is involved things will never be totally PC. And we're never going to see eye to eye on this because various people have repeatly pointed out to you why things are the way they are and your stance and comeback is basically it's not right/fair or shouldn't be that way. Which I guess is nice and idealistic but doesn't change anything on the business side which basically drives the industry. I'd much rather the industry be succesful than morally correct. and the first thing you're going to say to that is "can't it be both?" and the answer is "Not really". Because if we were to really go down the moral road (not just the narrow moral road you want to see) a lot of things go away.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 1 2015 : 10:48AM
^In other words, it can't be racist because it's a market driven business? "It's business" does not automatically mean "It's not racist." I didn't mention those pornstars simply because they dislike the IR system, but rather because they recognize that it's a business while at the same time recognizing that, even if it happens to work for them, the current business model is socially backwards and probably racist. You're reaching with the women analogy. Why would anyone think that the system of paying women more is socially backwards when, outside of porn, we're often paid less than men?
After reading multiple threads on IR that seem to go this way I wonder why anybody ever discusses these things at all. The majority here are clearly ok with discrimination under the guise of business and always will be. Whether that be girls choosing to discriminate or businesses saying it makes business sense to do things this way. This will not change with any amount of discussion, it will only change when different people are running the show.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Aug 1 2015 : 4:16PM
Or when a sex scene between a white female and black male is no longer categorized (IR). Simply put, I would point to that as being the root of all these problems discussed in this thread. As long as such sex scenes are labeled differently from "regular" scenes, i.e. B/G, the business practices discussed here will continue.
^ I disagree. Pretending race doesn't exist doesn't stop it from existing. Not talking about it doesn't mean our actions change. Even if the label didn't exist, there would still be people out there who prefer BM/WE port and would actively seek it out. So there would still be a market for it, and I doubt it would be served much differently than it is now. I would argue that most of the current issues with IR don't exist because there is a label, but exist because there's a belief among most companies that it won't sell outside of said label (for example, you pretty much never see IR in features). Movies are either all IR or zero IR, and that limits the opportunities for black male performers. In other words, not labeling it wouldn't stop companies from treating it like a niche.
If a person insists on looking at it as "racist" then they will see it as such. In this particular instance I don't see it as racist but a business decison with a race element. Just like my example of men getting paid less than women in porn when if you were to look at it in the same context as you do with this whole IR thing it's clear it's not fair or treating people equally but in that case it's a gender bias. In porn BBW women likely don't make as much and don't get treated the same as their thinner counterparts. If you just look at that from a moral or fairness stance it's clearly discrimination. Black women in general don't get paid as much as their white counterparts. That's seen as racist if looked at strictly morally. However, when put into a business context all those things make sense. Because people should be paid more if they can generate more revenue. Their gender, age, skin color, size, or whatever may or may not give them an advange or it might not factor in at all. But I absolutely think if a person has a skill, look, talent, or whatever they bring to the table that makes more money for people or is more in demand they should make or get paid more. Tom Cruise isn't the best actor in Hollywood but if he has that certain something that makes more people want to see his movies than people who are better actors he most certainly should get paid more. If Lex, Mandingo, and Shane can be in a movie and get more to buy those movies because they are black guys with huge junk, yeah, they should make more money than smaller penis guys who move less product. If a pornstar is very good looking and lots of people like seeing her in a scene and her being in a movie causes it to sell more than less good looking girls can of course she should be paid more. If a bunch of porn fans get on the net and beg a pornstar to do IR or if they keep bugging a director to cast a girl in a IR movie and when she does that movie sells much more because of that girl why in the world shouldn't she get more? Because some fans insist on looking at it as strictly a race issue? The same fans who probably wouldn't stop requesting/demanding that that girl do the IR scene in the first place. I think it's very funny/strange that some of you here not only support but encourage and help drive the very thing you claim to be against. I'm sure you'll dissmiss all the things mentioned above that you have no problems with. You choose to only single out "racism" but really at the heart of that you're bascially just asking for or wanting "equality" or "fairness" in regards to race....but casually dissmiss other types of discrimination I mention. Your choice to not look at more of the business aspect is your right to make but I personally don't want to live in a world where all business decisions are make based on total fairness or morality. I think if a person has something that's in demand they should be compensated for it regardless of what some may think or find wrong with it. Not in every instance but certainly when it comes to this IR topic.Oh, so it's okay to discrimate if that group is/was treated wrongly elsewhere?
It doesn't matter if it's labelled or not, the people who want to or prefer IR will still gravitate to it and seek it out. You think if studios stop labelling gangbangs movies as such people would stop requesting it or seeking them out?
I don't know if I agree with that. Perhaps some companies don't have IR scenes in there normally all white movies because they chose to maximize their IR movies. I've mentioned before that I'm sometimes annoyed that there's a lone IR scene I want to see on an otherwise all white movie and end up not buying it because I have no interest in the other scenes and don't buy it because it's not worth the price to buy a movie for that one scene I want to watch. On the other hand, it's possible that one IR scene is the thing that makes me buy a movie that I was kinda lukewarm towards otherwise. And of course there are all IR movies that have only one scene I want to see and don't buy it because it's not worth the cost to me. So from a company standpoint perhaps putting all/most of their IR scenes in IR movies may be the best course for them. There are people who mostly watch IR and there are people ho don't care about race and will pick up their IR stuff based on the talent involved. So it's hard to say which way is the best way to approach this. I like IR but the female talent is more important to me IR overall so I can see the benefits of both appoaches. As far as it limiting black talent, that's also hard to say because some black performers benefit from all IR movies. There are some black performers that aren't as good some of their white counterparts and mostly work because they're black (or big). Does Shane Diesel get series devoted to him because he's a good performer or because he's a black guy with a penis? As far as some companies go...is a black performer really working less because he's only appearing in all black releases or he'd only shoot a few scenes for them anyway if the IR stuff was intermixed with the white on white porn? Hard to say and it would vary from company to company. It's highly likely that if the all of the all IR movies from certain companies went away most of the IR content would go away too.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 2 2015 : 11:21AM
^^^I admit it Draxxx, I think that racism is a grave social issue and that the big penisism that Shane Diesel and others benefit from is not. The same goes for women getting paid more than men in porn. Equal pay for equal work is not being violated when a woman is the one getting double penetrated and the man is only the one penetrating. All "discrimination" is not equal. Being discriminated against in the industry because you are a mediocre performer or are not as bankable compared to pornstars popularly regarded as more attractive than you is in no way the equivalent of being discriminated against simply because you are black. Lex's name actually gets movies sold, but no matter how profitable he is he is not treated equally in the industry because he is black. Furthermore, let's say that all of your examples were in fact serious forms of discrimination and I were ignoring them. How would that make the segregation of black men in the industry any less racist? Your premise: The market dictates the IR business model You conclusion from that premise: the business model is not racist. My reply: A market effective business model cannot be racist?
At the end of the day, it is what it is. 629 Posts 12/09
Posted - Aug 2 2015 : 12:21PM
Business versus social equity has been an issue since desegregation. Desegregation has established that race equity should trump business. It might make business sense to hire all blonde waitresses at Hooters in most of the locations.
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fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Aug 2 2015 : 1:59PM
If it was strictly business white males would not be working..they are not as profitable as Black males and when paired with Black women it is the least selling but when Black women work it is usually with white males...this is political not business.
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Interracial4Life Deactivated User
329 Posts 3/15
Posted - Aug 2 2015 : 2:20PM
Let remember there aren't much black porn out there to. BM/WF IR is more demand, and many companies shoot it. It just the way of the business
I agree that it is too but mostly in mainstream culture not in the porn business where profits drives decisions.If you're really about equality and fairness in the business of porn then you have to (or at least should) aknowledge that there are many things that aren't equal or fair but are based on marketablity. Just like white girls getting paid more for doing IR if the same things I mentioned were happening in the "real" world they'd absolutely be considered discriminitory. What real world job out there would allow a man to have the same position as a woman and actually do more work and get paid considerably less? What job typical would get away with paying a woman less because she was heavier? But since you choose to not accept the business aspect and try and apply the same cultural morals to a unique business with unique rules you'll always see it as racist. If the industry was as truly racist as some of you seem to think we'd have considerably less IR or even black on black porn and performers like Lex and Mandingo or whoever would never become the stars they are. You wouldn't have the current upswing of IR material and you wouldn't have white women getting paid more because a truly racist indutry would flat out say no to such a thing.In your eyes apparently not. But I'm sure somewhere on some other site there's a person who feels just as strongly as you do about this complaining that BBW don't get a fair shake in porn and how wrong it is that they don't.Do you have an official ranking of what's most to least discriminitory so we can all be on the same page with this? Otherwise, it just sems like you're picking and choosing which you think are more important.It actually doesn't. What you're totally missing is that just because you've decided that IR or black male discrimination is important and the others aren't doesn't make it so. You are only concerned about this one "injustice". I say if you're going to try to be fair the industry needs to be fair about all injustices. But then, I don't see any of them as injustices/unfairness/racist/sexist because they're all based on business decisions and you seem to only view them as business decisions when it suites you. Like your logic that it's okay to pay women in porn more than men because women have been underpaid in the real world for so long. Suddenly, the business side of porn for women is okay....but when it comes to blacks we somehow shouldn't accept how porn handles it's business.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 2:30AM
^You're assuming that my only problem with the industry is the segregation of black men, even though I already said earlier in the thread that I am discussing segregation here rather than other issues because this is an IR thread. I'm not sure what is so inconsistent about sticking to the subject of IR on a thread titled "Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day." Did I write that "it's okay to pay women in porn more than men because women have been underpaid in the real world for so long"? I remember responding with a question, not a statement, but maybe my memory is foggy. Did I really argue that the segregation of blacks within the industry is intentionally racist? Is a business practice only racist if it is intentionally so? I'd like you to clearly explain to me how sex with a black man, and only sex with a black man, not being treated as a normal b/g scene by the industry is analogous to Johnson & Johnson selling black hair care products. Edited by - misspornUSA on 8/3/2015 2:37:51 AM From a comment of mine earlier in the thread:Edited by - misspornUSA on 8/3/2015 2:57:07 AM
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research1 Deactivated User
156 Posts 7/15
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 2:52AM
I'm seeing a lot of consistently racist statements being made about White people here, but I'll let that slide because this is a industry thread, not a society at large thread. "Ebony" as a search term has increased by 80% 2014-15 over 2013-2014. Black women are a hot market right now, a lot of that is increased interest from non-Black men. I also see that "Black studios" like WCP are devoting more resources to top flight BM/BF movies. Personally, I have never seen so many WM/BF scenes pop up. A lot of that is due to the hard work of RealityKings and other websites. If there's a problem with WM/BF porn it is: 1) Rude/incompetent directors who make a scene awkward and ask inappropriate borderline racist questions or make statements that are just not good. 2) WM talent lacking interest in putting out a quality scene. I've seen over and over again that the best WM in porn tend to come from Europe. I have no idea why America can't produce many good WM performers, but the same thing could be said for others, like AA men. Again, Keni Styles is Thai-British. There's one other good AA male, but he's older and only does POV scenes. At least he puts in an effort. 3) "Black porn" seems to REALLY emphasize the man over the woman. There's a lot of gay overtones that have creeped into Black porn titles, that could be why. I don't think it's necessarily gay Black men who are pushing the genre closer and closer to gay porn. It's a lot of non-Black men who are homosexual and pushing the genre to match their orientation. 4) "White porn" focuses on the woman a lot, and seems to shoot scenes to make great stills...not great fucking. If you watch a lot of the WM performers in a scene, they are constantly stopping and starting to get good shots for the cameraman. Again, that's something that is old school and kind of behind the times. What makes a good picture still doesn't always translate to video. This becomes blatant when you see a lacksidasical WM performer paired with a high energy elite female performer (think Luna Star, Lauren Phoenix, Adriana Malao, Franceska James, Abby Lee Brazil) it really doesn't paint a positive picture of American WM in porn. For whatever reason, it seems like a lot of the quality American White male performers leave early. The only two American WM that I think can match the energy of their female partner is JMAC and the bald headed guy from Brazzers. Criss Strokes annoys me. Brick Danger was a young guy putting in a good effort but he has disappeared I think. In the end, I think a lot of this boils down to crappy directors casting their buddies when they should really be assessing and hiring quality American WM talent. If not, at least bring over the excellent WM talent from Europe.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 2:56AM
????
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research1 Deactivated User
156 Posts 7/15
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 3:01AM
Fredgee in particular has gotten away with a lot of them. But as I said, this is industry thread not a meta-adultdvdtalk thread. So I'm just going to hold my piece.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 3:44AM
Therein lies another problem-the simple fact that for the vast majority of the (pay for) porn audience, physical appearance, including skin color, does matter. That's the great irony of the IR debate, that the people who prefer black male talent are the ones trying to lecture everyone else that skin color/race doesn't matter. And going back to my previously quoted point...as long as IR is standard on the "pornstar checklist", as I like to call it, there will continue to be issues like the subject of this thread. "Pornstar Checklist" -Solo -G/G -B/G -IR -Anal -IR Anal -DP -Blowbang -Gangbang
Well, sorry you don't want to hear about the other discriminations happening in porn I use to make my points clear but I need to make them to explain my take on the questions you keep asking about. We seem to be going in circles basically saying the same things and I thought that maybe if I make a more expansive answer me points would be more clear and we could stop trying to cover the same ground. My acceptance of women getting paid more for IR and blacks not working as often all tie into the discriminations I mention because my opinions are based on a total picture of the porn business landscape. I don't choose to do what you do and only judge/critize the parts I don't like and dissmiss the rest. My acceptance is consistant across the discrimination porn board and doesn't play favorites. Your take cherry picks what you don't like.Yeah you pretty much did. You said no one would be upset that women in porn get paid more because women have made less men in the "real" world. That's saying it's okay.You keep going back to directors/companies paying white women more to do IR. That's an intententional choice and not something that accidently happens. You said black male performers work less because they're black. Directors hire the talent and if blacks are being given less work that would imply you think it's an intentional choice to hire whites over blacks. You keep going back to the girls who choose not to ask for more money. That's them intentionally saying no to the act you view as racist and clearly you don't like intentional choice made by the girls to hold out for more money. Aren't all these choices "intentional"?I'd like you to clearly explain why you keep asking me specific questions and after I answer them and you don't like the answer you try and switch things back to another topic. YOU asked the question. I didn't pull it out of my ass. I gave you an answer. The answer actually goes back to the topic/question you asked yet again 2 quotes up. If you don't want answers to things you don't think are relevant to the topic you keep veering off from you need to stop asking the question over and over again
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 11:08AM
Again, you are assuming that because I discuss IR on an IR thread that the IR system is my only problem with porn. You already made this criticism several pages back and I already responded to it.I implied that women getting paid more in porn than men is not socially backwards. Is it?I am not suggesting that producers and performers are necessarily making the decisions they do in regards to IR because they are racist or in order to be racist. What I am arguing is that regardless of their intent the IR system is racist.Your analogies have been quite poor. That's what I'm getting at.
If you're talking about all the talk of the horrible white women who want more money to do IR, then yeah you're right. However the people saying those things won't admit it or can't see it because they think they're in the clear as long as they don't directly say "White women asking for more money and white directors paying them as such are racist" but obviously that's the gist of what some of them are saying.If you're talking about the girls being asked race specific questions like if they like or prefer having sex with black guys or how many black men they've had sex with....there's nothing wrong with those types of questions because some viewers like that it adds to the fetish/fantasy of white girls craving black men. Or plays up the taboo aspect that they're doing something they shouldn't. I guess I can understand why some people wouldn't like it but it's just a part of the IR porn presentation. as you can tell from the all the talk happening here some people hang on every word a pornstar says about IR sex.
But not as poor as your tactic of asking specific questions then trying to flip the script when you get answers you don't like. Here's your quote that I responded to: "My reply: A market effectively business model cannot be racist?" I didn't crop this from a bigger statement or question. It was a quote seperate posted all by itself. I answered the quote that isn't isn't an analogy question at all. I made my point that I guess couldn't be argued with so you decide to suddenly say I made a poor analogy to a straight forward question that wasn't presented as an analogy type question. Is this a messageboard thing or do you do it in everyday life as well? You: What time is it? Person: It's four o'clock. You: What does that have to do with where we're going for dinner?
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fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 12:03PM
Racism is not just hostility towards Blacks it is also the power to shape events in a way that benefits a few people in particular, favoritism is as rampant as racism in the industry, it is monopolized. What can be done about it is the question for people who want a more inclusive industry..
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 12:17PM
^^You wrote that if you apply my "mentality" to Johnson & Johnson, then that company must be regarded as racist because they put out products for blacks. I responded by asking how exactly Johnson & Johnson putting out products to blacks is the same as sex with black men not being regarded as a simple b/g by the porn industry. This response apparently irritated you, which, while unfortunate, is not my concern.
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research1 Deactivated User
156 Posts 7/15
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 1:43PM
I'm talking about the direct stuff said by people commenting here about White people. I'm not going to get into another race off-topic debate as a newbie. Next, looks like you didn't read much of my post before replying: I specifically said WM/BF porn. NOT BM/WF porn. As a WM I find it weird to watch BM/WF or AM/WF porn. Add to that the offensive, downright anti-White titles and premise of most BM/WF porn and I'm definitely never going to watch it. In fact, I'll watch BM/BF porn before I'll watch BM/WF porn. A lot of gay or bisexual men seem to have a fascination with a BM archetype...that seems to be the contingent of fans pulling BM/XF porn ever closer to outright GAY pornography. It crosses over into gay pornography with the cuckold genre. That stuff is such a disgrace to White people and with the internet the whole world can see it. Edited by - research1 on 8/3/2015 1:49:46 PM
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research1 Deactivated User
156 Posts 7/15
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 1:48PM
The bisexual and gay Jewish men who run the interracial porn fixated studios (including a certain talent agent) don't want inclusion. If they make the industry more inclusive they lose a lot of power. The solution is for AM/BM/IM/HM/WM to stop bitching and make a lot more of their own content.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 1:55PM
^^You should skim the thread. You seem to be criticizing fetish porn for being fetish porn, and this has been discussed several times already. Nothing wrong with bringing it up again, but perhaps you'll benefit from reviewing what's already been written on that subject here.
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research1 Deactivated User
156 Posts 7/15
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 2:19PM
Don't try and create some artificial barrier between interracial and interracial cuckold porn. They use the same BM performers, the same racist titles and they are made by man of the same studios. It's funny how people think calling it "fetish" somehow means it's somehow not interracial porn.
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fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 2:29PM
It is time for a new era in porn but that will take working with people already in the industry and they may be hesitant to jump ship..the market, talent, money is there for a change but the knowledge is another question...Business is about building relationship as much as selling products in porn connections may be more important than product. That is one reason IR is the biggest seller in a industry that doesn't hire Blacks often..
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 3 2015 : 4:43PM
Actually, I replied to the answer you gave. You already know that, since you followed up my reply with one of your own.Edited by - misspornUSA on 8/3/2015 4:54:27 PM
You said this in response to me in another thread, and I didn't want to reply to it there as it was off topic, but I'm going to reply to it here. I can understand why someone who primarily only watches studios like Evil Angel, Jules Jordan, Hard/EroticaX and the like would think that way, as those companies do tend to use the same 20-30 guys over and over again in a loop. But if you look at the industry at large, that's simply not true. If you were to look at sites like Bangbros, Reality Kings, Naughty America, Team Skeet, Nubiles, or dozens of other sites, you'd see that all of those sites tend to use/find new talent on a semi-regular basis. It's just that, the vast majority of the time those guys just aren't as good as the guys at the "top of the food chain", so to speak. Sure, there's some favoritism involved, in the fact that you're more likely to go with the guy who has delivered for you in the past than the guy you've never worked with before, but there's tons of companies out there looking for new male talent, and any guy that performs consistently well for those companies (outside of off-camera issues) eventually does get his chance to work for the top directors and make his mark for them. And that applies to black and white male talent (for example, the newest guy that Blacked.com has started using was making his mark on a small IR site before Lansky started hiring him).
First of all, at no point did I say that all IR movies should go away. What I said is that, for the most part, most companies are okay with shooting all white movies, and shooting all IR movies, but there aren't very many companies that are willing to shoot movies that contain both. Which, since the majority of the movies out there aren't conceived as all IR movies, can and arguably does limit the amount of work black male performers receive. And as for your mention of Shane Diesel, I'd argue that he gets/got about as much work in general as Billy Glide did before he passed away, who was a white male performer who was also much more known for the size of his dick than his performance skills (with the obvious difference that Shane gets more movies dedicated to him specifically, while Billy would have more overall titles to his name). And even if I agreed with you, it would also require me to believe that companies out there actually know how to read the market and anticipate what the market wants. Which I don't. Porn, in general, is extremely, extremely copycat in terms of ideas. They don't read what the market wants that isn't out there, they read what the market is currently buying and make more of that, until someone decides to start making something that isn't out there and it turns out to be a big hit, at which point companies start copying that (hell, this is basically the entire business model of Brazzers over the past decade).
This is a BAD argument, but the trick is that it isn't for the reasons you think it is. First the idea that the male does most of the heavy lifting in a scene is completely wrong, unless you're talking about the literal lifting of the female performer. We can start with the fact that while there are positions that basically rely on the male talent for the majority of the movement (missionary, doggy, spoon), there are also positions that rely on the female talent for the majority of the movement as well (cowgirl and reverse cowgirl). We can talk about BJ and POV movies, where the female performer is almost literally doing all the movement in the scene. Or we can talk about the fact that you're forgetting the "performing" aspect of being a female performer, where she's the one that has to act like all of this is the best sex that she's ever had in her entire life. Second, the fact that great male performers are hard to find is the reason that the most popular male performers are actually paid more per scene than the majority of female performers (basically, only a few girls at the high end of the spectrum make more per scene than the most expensive male performers). And third, the fact that the average male performer is paid less per scene than the average female performer is actually generally balanced out by the fact that the average male performer is able to shoot more scenes per year than the average female performer, so the average male performer actually makes more money on a yearly basis. Edit: If you actually want an interesting gender argument that will basically devolve into "because the market says so", start asking yourself whether a g/g scene is generally or always less work than a b/g scene, and then why g/g pays less per scene than b/g almost no matter what you're doing in the scene. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 8/3/2015 9:53:14 PM
And no where in my comments did I say you did. I went through several senarios regarding IR in movies and giving my opinion what I think might happen in those senarios. Never, ever claimed you said all IR movies should go away.
There's much more pressure on a guy to perform in a sex scene. If he can't get hard, the movie doesn't get shot. If he can't stay hard he slows down the production. If he cums to soon the production is held up until he can perform again. If he can't "finish" the scene can't be completed. A girl does put in some effort and yeah she can act like it's the best sex ever but a guy can't "act" like he has an erection. Almost any girl can do a sex scene and that's why there'll always be a steady string of female performers. Finding guys who can get it up, maintain it through all the starting and stopping, and deliver the money shoton cue anre much, much harder to find. Men have a much harder role in porn. This is far from a secret and something most people agree on.You can't prove that's a true statement. There are girls who are able to work very steadily and there are guys who simply don'tget that much work. I'm sure the top guys may make more than the average girl but I doubt they make more than the top girls. The average guys are paid less and work less. It's unlikely that the average male performer makes more than the average female overall. In some cases maybe in other cases maybe not.
There are also guys who work steadily and girls who don't get much work. Just from a purely numerical point of view, it's a fact that the average male performer works more than the average female performer (as long as we assume that there are more female performers out there than male). How much more basically depends on how many more girls are out there than guys, and how many guys and girls the average scene contains. Unfortunately, I'm away from my computer at the moment, but I can run some basic numbers to prove it to you in a few days.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Aug 5 2015 : 2:00AM
I'm trying to steer clear of this thread, but I just had to address this real quick... In the context of what you're replying to (equal pay for equal work) No, that doesn't balance it out. Not even a little. It actually defeats the whole purpose of the concept. Trying to prove that the average male performer shoots more scenes than the average female performer misses the point entirely. Would you be okay with it if your boss told you that your pay rate was going to be cut in half but you could get double the hours and still make the same take home pay? Somehow I doubt it. That said, I don't think Draxxx's point was to dissect any other particular injustices in porn, it was just to point out that it seems odd to just fixate on this one. (which seems to be driven by the customers, which seem to be the people complaining about it the loudest, or so it appears to me)
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research1 Deactivated User
156 Posts 7/15
Posted - Aug 5 2015 : 2:45AM
Good analysis. I'd also guess that it's a very small number of people complaining a lot and posting a lot to pressure studios and performers to make the kind of content they want to see. With all their posts and multiple accounts, they make it seem like they have more numbers. They've even been successful at pushing the IR meme by repeating it enough time that performers and fans have started to believe it.
Haven't replied to this tread for days, and of course it pretty much went as it would. Majority - Business trumps equality, deal with it. Minority - That's not exactly fair. Winner - Status quo Equality will never be a hot topic in porn. The 'interracial' subject was lost years ago. No point in trying to convince anybody on it.....
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 9 2015 : 11:55PM
I question whether that's actually been the view expressed by the majority of the participants on this thread. Edited by - misspornUSA on 8/9/2015 11:55:47 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 1:37PM
^I linked to that interview in her thread. She doesn't really have all that much to say on the thread topic that we haven't heard before (she says that if she had waited to shoot with black men she would have gotten paid big for that first scene but not for subsequent scenes with black men), though, concerning her other comments, it's disappointing that she probably won't work for Dogfart again.
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Curtom Deactivated User
293 Posts 8/14
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 2:41PM
That's what people have been saying on this forum for some time.
Stacked 14 - review by Captain Jack
Posted - Jul 31 2015 : 8:52PM
