"You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10
Posted - Mar 22 2016 : 7:38PM
How does this topic, and this thread in particular, keep going on and on and on... We've cycled through the entire set of responses at least three times, yet everyone keeps posting as if they've never bothered to read anything that's been posted already
No, you actually have no clue what you are talking about. If I want to book a girl for an interracial scene for $1000 and her agent says she's waiting for a "big" paycheck for her first, well unless that paycheck is 20 grand she could have done 20 scenes in the meantime and made the money. She may NEVER get a big paycheck from anyone since porn is now essentially free. So no, I'm not trying to get more money at the expense of anyone. I'm trying to get girls to be less stupid about making money
I think getting a mere tripling of the standard rate is not even that big a deal. Honestly, if your options are to wait for 2-3 years to get that kind of "pay day", you could have made that money 5 times over already by doing just IR the whole time at a standard rate. And honestly, as popular as Blacked is, the exposure on such a high quality and highly trafficked site like that would be worth taking a pay cut. IMO this seems less of an incentive for the performers and more of an incentive for their agents who we know do the negotiating for those exclusive rates. They probably get a bigger cut percentage wise, and that's how they eat. But Riley Reid's one of the most popular stars out there. 4k is nothing. Who waits 2-3 years for a fucking one time 4 grand bonus? I suppose some other 1st time IR exclusive bonuses were higher than that, but not much. Considering stars can do like 100 scenes per year, (or more?), and get $1500 as a standard rate for newbies... It's just silly. So, you're going to work for 2-3 years and make 300 or 400 grand... and then get that 4 grand bonus? That's like just 1% of what they've earned in porn by that point. Supposing they didn't wait for that IR payday, and just did IR sooner and got more work, like high profile opportunities with Blacked or DarkX, then they could have gotten 10, 15, maybe even 20% more work in that same period. Maybe my assessment is off here, but it just seems foolish to hold off on IR for more than a year, or two years tops. Waiting 3 years for a one time bonus is absurd. If you're starting in porn, and you're booked to do 50 scenes per year for your first 3 years, and because you're holding off on doing IR you're definitely skipping some offers, in 3 years you've done 150 scenes. You make about 250 grand. Then you finally do your IR scene and get 3 grand instead of your standard rate. Or let's say 5 grand. That's still nothing compared to what you skipped. You could have already made 50 more grand in 3 years by doing IR. So you've done 3 years of vanilla, then one IR scene for a total of 255 g's. Or you could've done 3 years of vanilla + IR, and let's say you got just 10% more work from availing yourself to IR, that means you could have already got to 275 g's. You just LOST 20 grand. You lost at least 20 grand, cuz you also lost out on the extra exposure you could have got from a wider fanbase. I'll tell you, if I was a porn star, and my options were to wait 2-3 years for some piddling bonus pay for an IR scene, OR working for Lansky at a standard rate right away, I'd work with Lansky. He's making stars out of newcomers. It's win win.
^I agree with your entire post. You wait years to perform IR for that one time $2K-3K extra bonus. From a financial standpoint, I don't see the small increase you get from that first IR scene as a reason for holding off for years. If you are a popular female performer, you make more money sooner and over a sustained period of time due to the increased number of shooting opportunities and potential revenue streams from a larger fan base. I think the primary reason they are holding off is because of lack of interest in performing in an interracial scene which is their choice. Being a sex worker doesn't mean you will have sex with any and every performer. Edited by - fanofman on 3/23/2016 4:21:21 AM
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
I didn't mention you especially it was a general statement and of course you're right with the figures you mentioned but if she wants just the double? $ 2,000? Questions are Does an iR movie sell more than its equivalent who isn't? Isn't any saved buck an earned one? which is the point on an economic perspective for anybody producing a porn movie. If you ask me is it smart to refuse a dozen scenes to pursue a single overpaid one? I'd say no, you're right , I agree with this. But if a starlets sees every other colleague gaining more for their first iR then she might feel as the dumb one if she doesn't do the same , which might be a reason for some to wait. I also believe that some guys out there ruined the market paying too much and removing young stars from the field but this is another matter
Edited by - LCF on 3/23/2016 9:46:44 AM
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Mar 23 2016 : 10:02AM
^That's practically career suicide, sir. Put the shovel down.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 23 2016 : 3:17PM
^^^One aspect of the waiting game that we're not discussing is the fact that first IR, like other firsts, is a card that a pornstar may hold onto until she decides that she needs to bring new energy into her career. It's not just about the money.
LOL I don't see so many suicides in the biz many of the stars who actually chose that path are not only alive and kicking but also kicking asses out there
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Mar 23 2016 : 4:33PM
I was just thinking the same thing. There's little doubt in my view that the pacing of anal, IR, circus acts did lead to longer careers for top performers. Others want to just get in, make their money and get out. In fact that seems to be the majority these days.
One thing that some of you are forgetting is that these girls don't have to do IR or may not be in a big rush to do it and have plenty of non-IR work going on to keep them busy so waiting on that big IR payday isn't really that big of a deal. So the idea that they're missing out on all this work doesn't add up for some girls. Keep in mind that there's plenty of girls who only shoot a handful of IR over the course of their entire career so it's not like doing IR is opening the floodgates to more work. For some girls they dive in and do lots of IR, for others it's just a few here and there. So yeah, hoping for that big payday or showcase might be worth trying for and waiting it out a bit for some girls. I think there's a window of time involved for some and after a time fewer people or no one will care and chances of that big payday will fade. With some their big payday will not be as big as others. For some girls someone will be willing to pay double or more of their usual rate...for others their big payday might only be a couple of hundred more. Some girls may be holding out more money. Some may be holding out for a showcase. Some girls will eventually do IR regardless. Some may never bother to. There's no one size fits all answer or scenario for this stuff.
we the people in order to form a more perfect union... 518 Posts 12/03
Posted - Mar 24 2016 : 6:25AM
to change the subject a bit I like to bring up girls who shoot with black guys for other companies but do not have any scenes with black guys on their own websites. I kind of have mixed feelings on this because as an IR fan I wonder if there is some inconsistency with some of these women. when they shoot these IR scenes for other companies obviously they get paid for those scenes. but when it comes to shooting content for their own websites it seems to be a different story. when they shoot their own content instead of companies paying them they have to come up with the money out of their own pockets to pay the talent, camera person, make up artist, etc.. not to single anyone out but Riley Reid's recent statement about getting the same boy/girl rate regardless of skin color has gotten a lot of attention and praise from a number of people. yet when I looked at her site there was not a black guy in sight. I don't know her so i'm not going to make any judgement on her or any other woman in this regard. I know that this a business and these are paid professionals but why do black guys for other companies but not for their own websites? these women already have fans who watch their scenes with black men. their websites is supposed to be another revenue stream for them so why not have a good percentage of the content interracial to draw in these fans to become members of your site? I'm sure the majority of the racists who condemn them for doing IR in the first place are not members of their site so losing members should not be a big concern to them. and the additional revenue they would gain would be way more than any losses by doing interracial content.
^ Wow! Is that really a concern? Maybe those girls who don't do IR on their own site prefer to shoot with white guys if given a choice. Is that such a bad thing?
^ especially because those who do for their websites only are also criticized
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Mar 24 2016 : 10:01AM
I hate this justification. Black men are the only ones that get told I won't work with because of your race. Latin guys, asian guys, and of course white guys NEVER get turn down for that reason.
Part of the problem is sex on camera with black guys is considered interracial sex and it can't be thought of as otherwise. Why can't it just be b/g that just so happens to be bm/wf or vice versa or whatever every once in a while.
>>I know that this a business and these are paid professionals but why do black guys for other companies but not for their own websites?<< Because scenes for studios get so much more exposure than ones on personal sites, I can't believe it has anything to do with the views of their fanbase. If the small pool of black talent has caused difficulty for directors like MimeFreak to meet demand, how much harder would it be for personal sites, which probably can't afford to pay the same rates as studios?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 24 2016 : 10:52AM
^When MimeFreak says that there is only a small pool of black male talent, he must mean that there only is a small pool of black male that he wants to work with. Why doesn't he shoot some of the black guys who don't get as much work?
well it's a free country :P Ofcourse it's easy for fans to wish something, but it's their body and choice. Perhaps some don't like IR, some don't like watersports, fisting etc. and perhaps only want to do it occasionaly.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 24 2016 : 1:18PM
^How a scene is booked: In the Lexington Steele Live episode that I brought up on the previous page, Allison Moore mentions that, at her request, her agent doesn't distinguish between IR and other b/g scenes any more. Perhaps some other pornstars do the same. Certainly other pornstars can do the same. The actual content of the scene: There are scenes being produced that don't mention race at all. Obviously such scenes don't dominate the genre but they do exist. MimeFreak, for example, has directed many such scenes. How a scene is marketed: That won't change anytime soon.
^^^by the same token, sh_rock has the right to avoid sites of performers who equate interracial sex with being pissed on and having hands shoved up their holes.
You hate that "justification"? Wow...shocker. The handful of Asian and Latin guys in porn are mostly seen as white. I know you see this as a horrible thing but people in and out of porn see black men as a commodity that stands out and apart from lighter skinned races (or people). Even fans of IR don't see certain lighter skinned black men as truly black and dismiss their scenes as IR. So I think some fans see all this as a skin color issue moreso than race. And again, hate all you want but it doesn't change that not all women need to do IR or feel it's high on their list of priorities.
Ok but this is contradictory to every time someone says it's sex and it's their body blah, blah, blah. And what other job are you allowed to say I don't want to work with someone because of their skin tone? What if Larry Bird said I don't want Robert parish on my team because he's black? What if Jennifer Lawrence said I don't want any black people in the hunger games? How about if Paul McCartney said he didn't want to do a song with michael Jackson because he's black(even though I'm sure other artists did)? The only reason porn can be so open and blatant with their racism is because it's porn so not many people care(or notice) and who's going to say this is wrong and it should change? Just because you can do something doesn't make it right. Edited by - Chessmaster on 3/25/2016 2:57:39 PM
there are those who only buy and watch IR , those guys especially created and keep alive such niched market. When they buy a DVD they don't want to find just one IR scene, let alone an IR WM/BF scene to them IR is especially BM/WF , Mimefreak here when asked for more latin girls said IR with Latin doesn't sell well or at least not as good as BM/WF (with Latino girls not tagged as such , Keisha Grey is Latina. So you tag IR that way so that those seeking for that will find it easily Edited by - LCF on 3/25/2016 4:54:24 PM
^and that's fine But why can't there be an interracial scene in an otherwise all white vanilla dvd sometimes? Why can't it not be tagged ir regardless whether she's Latina or white? I get the need to put the label on it saying it's ir but if anal can be present outside of anal movies and sites why can't ir?
^ This happens all the time , none of Rocco Movies is labeled iR yet unless he's the sole talent there's always an iR scene in his movies. Many Mason's movies in the past more often than not had an iR scene in them the last Wicked feature called Dirty Mind is as such , I didn't see it yet but it's mixed with different kind of scene AFAIK the IR scene BM/WF is Casey Calvert playng a wife with her black husband. Most of the Harmony features or vignettes movies have often an IR scene in them And you really need to see all the Ana Foxxx scenes in Mason's movies Edited by - LCF on 3/25/2016 5:11:45 PM
^ Speaking of weird Ir labels anyone find it weird when an Asian does a scene with a white man it isn't considered "IR" but when she does it with a black guy it is IR....There is also that Alex Jones thing who is half black and some of his scenes are labeled IR while others aren't but that is another story...
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Mar 25 2016 : 6:14PM
What was this based on? He hasn't shot ONE movie with an all BM/LF cast yet. Imagine if he shot Latina girls like: Luna Star Abby Lee Brazil Veronica Rodriguez Missy Martinez Jynx Maze Diamond Kitty Josie Jagger In an all LF/BM movie. Would that not sell?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 25 2016 : 9:48PM
Again, IR is a specific category within porn and there is a consumer demand for that continued categorization. Your analogies don't take that reality into account, while pornstars often do consider that reality in making their decisions about IR.You do realize that racist bigots such as Jessica Darlin have shot IR, right? Search around on this forum and you'll find some other examples. I think that a couple such pornstars have been mentioned on this thread. Business is the key factor here, not racial ethics. Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/25/2016 9:49:46 PM
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 4:04AM
So you use one rare example of a women who outed herself as a racist? Really? IR porn system is racist, plain ans simple. Don't justify it.
Don't ask me, ask him , he's been in the business for many years now plus I specified not as good as BM/WF and this means same costs less earnings. Anyway it's not just him , look around you in today porn there are very few all Latino movies if any at all anymore. The list you put may sell a lot but you put in two stars in demand who won't do IR so yes that one would sell a lot, but it's just it. there's a group of stars who don't even market themselves as Latino , ask to yourself why
Because they are human beings who are free to make their own choices about who they have sex with on camera? Sorry, but just like in real life not every white girl has a strong desire to date or sleep with guys black guys. They have nothing against them but they don't feel the need to go after one. There are girls who enter porn who get plenty of work working for companies who don't shoot that many or no IR scenes at all. In fact, most studios are like that. The discussion here is centered on the ones that do but the reality is that vast majority of porn shot is white on white. Lots of girls enter the porn biz and end up doing lots of work for a particular studio and find a few guys she's comfortable working with and pretty much stick to those guys for awhile. Many of you seem to think a girl who says no to IR will have sex with any white guy in porn but that's not true. They probably have a list of white guys they won't work with either but no one knows about that list and most people don't care. The girls who last the longest in porn are the ones who get to do the most work with the people they are most comfortable with for the longest time. If a girl is shooting lots of porn at NAUGHTY AMERICA, BRAZZERS, and FILLY FILMS and is comfortable there with their working situation and stable of guys...yeah, there not "need" or hurry for them to venture to DOGFART, WCP, or wherever. At some point they might...or they might not. Their career and personal preference might never take them in that direction.
It's job that requires people to be intimate with each other which is far different from being in the same room with people or working together on a project. Here's an example some of you will outright dismiss because it won't fit into your made up rules of "right and wrong". If I was in porn as a working performer with a career of steady work and suddenly some fans started telling me how they can't wait to see me do scenes with BBWs...I would blow those fans off. Why? I'm not generally attracted to big women... Fan: "Wow, that's fucked up Draxxx. You won't have sex with a BBW just because she's heavier?". Me: "I'm not attracted to BBW". Fan: But you did a scene with "X" and no way she's better looking than some of the BBWs out there. Me: Yeah, but I don't really care about having sex with one...maybe some day. Fan: It's not about who you're attracted to it's your job. Me: I have sex with who I want to. It's not my "job" to have sex with whoever you say. Fan: Damn, I thought you were cool, I had no idea you hated people because of their weight. ME: What?! Dude, lots of my friends are big. I hung out with some of the BBWs from the biz and friends at a club last week. Fan: Yeah right. Me: Pornstar Big Burtha and I are friends and text each other all the time. Every time I see her the first thing we do is hug each other. Fan: Oh you'll hug but that's as far as you'll go. You're a BBW Bigot!!! Me: I'm not a BBW Bigot. I guess I would have sex with a BBW if the situation was right...but I'm happy with what I'm doing now. Maybe sometime down the road. Fan: You're full of shit. Let me give you a long drawn out history lesson of the bigotry of heavy people in this country.....Me: Dude, I don't need to hear that. Fan: When the day comes and you have trouble getting work and come crawling to BBWs for work I hope they turn your BBW Bigot ass away. Me: I told you I have nothing against BBWs. Fan: But you won't work with them. Me: Maybe in the future or if someone makes me an offer that's hard to turn down. Fan: That's some bigot bullshit! You'll bang a BBW if they pay you more money?! That's so fucked up! Me: Like I said, I have nothing against BBWs and maybe I'd work with them in the future but if someone were to pay me a bunch of money to do a scene with one I'd take it. It's not that I would never have sex with a BBW, I just have no burning desire to go out of my way to do so. But if someone wants to up my pay to do so...sure I'll do it. Fan: You're a BBW Bigot piece of shit. This whole industry is full of BBW Bigots. That's why the BBWs get paid less than their thin girl counterparts. The industry wants to keep BBWs in their place. I've read interviews where BBWs they don't get nearly as much work as the thin girls because the industry is full of bigots. It's a fucked up situation and people just go along with that shit. What job do you know where a person can get away with not working with someone because of their weight?! I know some of you will claim that's an awful comparison but in my mind there's not much difference between not having sex with someone because of the weight or because of their race. Both are legit preferences. The big difference here is some people see anything to do race as a crime against humanity and any other injustice against someone different they don't get two shits about unless it's personal to the. In the example above I truly have nothing against BBWs but I'm not interested in having sex with one just for the sake of doing so. I don't rule it out, but it's not on my list of priorities. If someone were willing to pay me more to do it...sure, why not? Does that make me a bad person? In some people's eyes; yes. In some people's eyes they wouldn't care because it's not on their list of things to be pissed about.
^ Pretty much my thoughts (and tastes) , it could be done with Milfs and Grannies too, like those 60+ there at Scoreland , In reality here on ADT Lily Cade reported a harassment similar to that you said that occurred on twitter there was some fan who wanted her to shhot a scene with a she-male in one of her movies , she said not,. Why Not? they're females so they perfectly fit in a lesbian movie and so and so and so , there was no way to convince him that a true lesbian prefers a pussy over a cock and would not deal with a dick and a she-male still has one but hasn't any pussy Edited by - LCF on 3/26/2016 10:09:35 AM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 10:39AM
As I said, she is not the only example, and you have offered nothing to disprove my statement that "Business is the key factor here, not racial ethics." Is it racist that a higher value is placed on "first IR" than on a regular b/g scene? Producers are willing to pay more for first IR because first IR is worth more to them. Is it racist that it's worth more?Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/26/2016 10:42:38 AM
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 11:16AM
Because black men are the only ones in straight porn that get this "business is the factor" treatment. Tori Black is the most attractive pornstar ever (imo), but she did IR and had no problem getting booked for high-end vanilla porn, and winning awards. Belladonna, Sasha Grey and others also did IR for the duration of their careers had had no problem getting booked for many many scenes. Moreover, many british and euro girls come over and do IR scenes with no problem. So how do you justify the "economic" excuse?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 12:00PM
^Where did I argue that if a pornstar shoots IR she will have trouble getting booked for high-end vanilla porn and will be less likely to win awards, or that if a pornstar shoots IR for the duration of her career she won't get booked for many scenes? What specific point of mine did you intend to refute by pointing to the example of European pornstars?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 12:11PM
I've already explained why that is. IR is a specific category within porn and there is a consumer demand for that continued categorization. So great is the consumer demand that even producers who are against distinguishing IR from regular b/g do so anyway to meet that demand (I've provided examples).
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DiamondJackman Deactivated User
Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 1:29PM
From the quote from you about economics that I responded too. You said that it was economic in nature as to why white pornstars don't shoot IR. Now you are saying that you didn't, even though I quoted you above. My point is that Tori Black and other white pornstars made a great career without backlash from them doing IR. You know full well that I am right, and that even euro and british girls don't refuse to work with black male talent but if you take countries like Hungary where there a very few black people there, the pornstars from there who do IR have no problem working with 'strange' black men. You would think that they would be scared because they generally have minimal contact with black men. But they aren't the remote bit fearful about working with black male talent. Alot of the girls in the U.S. are indoctrinated by the racist and white racial supremacist culture at large. 13% of the U.S. population is black, yet even with such are large minority group, white U.S. porn chicks are more scared than any euro girl with no experience being around black men. It's such a strange and sadly ironic thing really. Edited by - Diamondjackman on 3/26/2016 1:30:29 PM
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 2:35PM
^^^As you know full well, I have explained the economic aspects of the IR system over and over and over again. However, at no time did I argue that if a pornstar shoots IR she will have trouble getting booked for high-end vanilla porn and will be less likely to win awards, or that if a pornstar shoots IR for the duration of her career she won't get booked for many scenes.
Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/26/2016 2:35:28 PM
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fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 2:38PM
Why is it so hard to say 'We want more Blacks in porn' that is the under lying theme in these threads. Terms like Vanilla porn, bland porn, have become part of the vernacular now that is not good. The powers that be know there is pent up demand for Black on Black and Black women all consumers have to do is be clear about what they want to see. Jade Aspen, Jezabel Vessir, Anya Ivy, Ivy Sherwood, Nadia Jay, Serena Ali could come back if the demand is clear and unmistakable.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Mar 26 2016 : 3:15PM
^I'd be open to seeing more black men in porn, but it isn't the underlying theme of this thread. As for more black on black porn and more black women in porn, I'm indifferent.
Posted - Mar 22 2016 : 7:38PM