Waiting to Shoot IR for a Bigger Pay Day (page 39)

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whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 13 2016 : 1:43AM Mass Facialties wrote: chessmaster wrote: ^either you're underestimating the number of racist porn fans or the people inside porn are overestimating. Because this is what porn agents and others are telling some pornstars still, no? Click to expand Considering the prevalence (and popularity) of IR porn nowadays, I find it hard to believe that there are still agents out there that promote such an outdated theory, not to mention, that there'd be any girl in the biz gullible enough to believe it. Click to expand Which brings me to something interesting I remembered/noticed today: Matrix Models model list Not a single solitary performer that they rep is listed as available for interracial. The weird part about that is that about 4-5 of them are available for it, or at least have shot it in the fairly recent past and are pretty far beyond their first (so a good chance of no contract shenanigans) [Jillian Janson, Leah Gotti, Aubrey Star, Aidra Fox at least]. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 5/13/2016 1:46:28 AM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 13 2016 : 1:52AM ^^I'm not arguing that it is a "verifiable reality", but rather that we consumers are unable to either verify or disprove it. Hence, the two options we are left with. Obviously, my impression from what I've read, watched, and listened to is that there exists a general consensus within the industry on this issue. "Make yourself available for everything all at once" appears to be the minority view. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/13/2016 1:58:12 AM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 13 2016 : 9:14AM whatsatelephonebill wrote: LCF wrote: ^ Point is you just dismiss doing IR as a cause affecting one's career , doing scenes for other sites proves nothing some sites such as Teens do Porn or amateur allure seek out chicks who are one and done , Blacked does not all those they hire were in porn month before they booked them and continue after they shoot with them, sadly this time is rather short as it appears. bottom line, you can't say doing IR won't affect a career, it's proven. it's not Click to expand First of all, I said Teen Fidelity, not Teens Do Porn, they're entirely different sites. Teen Fidelity doesn't seek out one and dones, and I doubt they have a much higher rate of performers who aren't in the industry anymore than Blacked does. Second of all, you're still missing my point. Which is that any "proof" that pacing affects a career is completely anecdotal and not based on anything resembling an actual study. There's literally no "proof" that pacing has any affect, positive or negative, on a career outside of looking at this performer and saying "hey, she paced and has been around a while" and then looking at this other performer and saying "hey, she did everything quickly and then quit, it must have been because she didn't pace herself" without any other knowledge of the situation. And you completely deflected from my point that Blacked doesn't have a higher drop-out rate than any other site that focuses primarily on shooting teens/newbies. You look at any of them, and just like Blacked, you'll see some women who became stars, some women who became consistent performers (but not stars), and some women who quit soon after they shot their scenes. Click to expand I made two examples Porn Fidelity hires known and less known stars who already were in porn and continued after that those at blacked such as Addison Belgium stopped abruptly just after their scene at Blacked , maybe she would have stopped in any case I don't know, and I do not put any assumption , nor anecdotes I'm simply stating that someone's success doesn't prove someone else's lack of obstacles. For example you mentioned consistent performers (but not Stars) with no question as to why they didn't make it, possibly not good enough, but if just watch any scene from either Elektra Rose or Aline West you will see quite the contrary , do you remember Rose Red Tyrell? all of those were great but never reached the status they should have. Anyway your assumption that since some performers reached star status and did IR from the beginning then it's proven that doing IR doesn't affect your career is equivalent to say there's a Black President so race doesn't affect your chances in life anymore , it's proven . Anybody can see it's flawed this way , there's nothing proven . On a side note if truly doing IR doesn't affect anything then it would prove there's no racism in the Industry. Would you say that? I certainly won't. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 13 2016 : 4:17PM ^ And you're still not getting my point. I'm saying that: 1.) The fact that there are some women who have done IR quicky and not stayed around long, and some other women who have waited and stayed around longer, doesn't actually prove anything in regards to whether or not pacing affects a career. You can't take the career of one, or two, or three, or even ten women and just say that it definitely extrapolates to the entirety of porn. You bring up Addison Belgium, and I'd counter with Madi Meadows, who shot for TeenFidelity and a few other companies and then proceeded to quit before having spent even 6 months shooting professional porn. Or we could go back to Alice Green, who, in addition to shooting IR early, also had a TeenFidelity scene. 2.) This isn't like using one high ranking AA politician to say that racism doesn't exist in America, because there's still thousands of stories and people that can be pointed to show that it does. This is me saying that for every female performer you can show me that started off doing IR and left the industry fairly soon, I can show you another one who started off doing IR and has stuck around. And truthfully, I could also show you another two female performers who didn't shoot IR to start with and also left fairly soon. And that's ignoring the fact that without knowing the circumstances of any of these performers, you can't actually say whether or not the fact that they did IR contributed to why they decided to leave porn. It could be because they had drug problems. They could have been unreliable. They could have had their families find out and make them decide to quit. You keep mistaking what I'm saying to mean that it absolutely isn't the case, when what I'm actually saying is that there is no proof, not that it's impossible. That all of this is based on what people think would/will happen, and not what actually is happening. And because there's no proof that pacing is harmful to a career, there's no motivation on the part of anyone to actually change things (basically, you end up with "better safe than sorry"). [Link]

DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - May 14 2016 : 3:14AM ^Don't try to argue with LCF, he always ties knots around his own argumentation. [Link]
Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - May 14 2016 : 9:05AM high_flyin5 wrote: Also, this consensus you speak of only seems to exist among agents of the stars themselves. From producers and directors (like Mike Quasar or Lexington Steele) there is a much more split opinion as to whether or not pacing actually is a career extending move. If you prefer deferring to the opinion of a segment within the industry, that's fine. I'm just not thrilled with the way some are presenting the act of pacing as if it's a concrete method of career longevity Click to expand It's not as simple or black and white as some of you want it to be. All girls are different. Some girls enter porn with the intention of being in for the long haul and being a porn star and having a big name and popularity. Some girls enter porn to enhance their escorting and/or dancing careers. Those girls come in and don't really shoot that much because porn isn't their first priority, it's just to have some sort of name recognition that will benefit their real job. Some girls enter because they think it's an easy way to make money. They come in with no real agenda other than to give it a try to see what happens. Some girls enter porn with the idea to just shoot as many scenes as possible and make as much money as they can. For a girl wanted to be a real star they have to be selective about what they do and when they do it. Simply pumping out scenes may work for some but for the majority of girls looking to be real stars some actual thought has to go into getting the most out of their career. Longevity is fine but there are different levels of longevity. There are girls who have been around for years but aren't a big deal. They get work but they don't get the boxcovers, they don't win awards, they don't get that much if any fan request to be shot, when they do conventions they don't have the long lines at their tables, and lastly they don't make the kind of money the more popular girls make. For some girls, to be a major player they must make wise career moves. Carter Cruise holding out (pacing) for doing her first IR for BLACKED was a smart career move. By not just accepting the first IR gig thrown her way she was able to make her BLACKED debut a showcase an event that gained her lots of attention and an award. Plus, her next IR will be a big deal and probably financially strong because fans will want to see her next IR work after her award winning IR BLACKED work. Directors/studios will all want to be the ones who gets her next IR work because they know it will be a big mover. However...had Carter Cruise had the mentality of most of the fan community she would've just hopped on the first IR offer thrown her way and it probably would've been early in her career before she built a following and it would've ended up being just another scene and her first would've been as big a deal. By holding out (pacing) for the right deal at the right time she was able to maximize her payday, her exposure and her clout for future movies. That all happened because she played it smart and waited (pacing). Most fans don't care because they just want to see her do a black guy and don't care about her making the best career choices. Nikki Benz made a smart career choice by not just doing some random IR scene and choosing to work with on of the biggest studios and do a showcase even cutting her pay to do it because she knew having her IR debut be an event would pay off in the long run. It absolutely gave her career a shot in the arm. Not saying she was doing badly otherwise but it raised her profile with fans and studios. Did holding out on IR help these two girls? Yes. Because they waited and created a demand that paid off as I mentioned. Did it extend their career? Debatable. Maybe they've set a time limit on how long they plan to be in porn and plan to leave when that time comes regardless. But what those decisions did was give them a bit more clout to make staying in porn easier. It's easier to stay in porn when you have a big fanbase and are in demand from the major studios as opposed to slipping into obscurity and only being able to work at the grade "D" studios for less exposure and less money. On the other side of the coin...The girls who decided to jump right into IR probably missed exploiting their full IR potential. Who's to say some of those girls missed out on getting a showcase from one of the majors? They probably won't get those calls from the majors to do IR because they've watered down their brand by doing it regularly for the smaller studios. Perhaps the JULES JORDAN, DARK X, or BLACKED directors don't want to shoot some girls without a big following doing the same stuff for them that they've done a bunch of times in the minors. Nothing special about doing that. They want to offer fans something they haven't seen a lot of or girls who bring a sizable audience with them. To be a major pornstar a girl has to work for the major studios. To work for the majors the girl must bring something. A fanbase she built, or her doing something she hasn't done much elsewhere. Therefore, holding out for the best deal only makes sense for a girl planning a long porn career. From the fan perspective, most fans don't give two shits. They don't care about the girl's career. kinda understandable. They just want to see the girl do the guys they want as soon and as many times as possible and then grow bored with it and move on to the next girl. I think it's fine for a fan not to not worry so much about a girl's career path or status but what's messed up is the fans who are jerks about it. The ones who insist they know what's best for the girl more than they do and the ones who refuse to respect the girl's career choices. So yeah, pacing and holding out can be important to the girl's career. Longevity-wise? Harder to pin that one down but it only makes sense that for some or perhaps even most girls it may play a factor. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 14 2016 : 10:34AM DiamondJackman wrote: ^Don't try to argue with LCF, he always ties knots around his own argumentation. Click to expand Well you erase any explanation you get and then ask again and again: Care to elaborate? So no wonder you find knots [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 14 2016 : 10:40AM whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ And you're still not getting my point. I'm saying that: 1.) The fact that there are some women who have done IR quicky and not stayed around long, and some other women who have waited and stayed around longer, doesn't actually prove anything in regards to whether or not pacing affects a career. You can't take the career of one, or two, or three, or even ten women and just say that it definitely extrapolates to the entirety of porn. You bring up Addison Belgium, and I'd counter with Madi Meadows, who shot for TeenFidelity and a few other companies and then proceeded to quit before having spent even 6 months shooting professional porn. Or we could go back to Alice Green, who, in addition to shooting IR early, also had a TeenFidelity scene. 2.) This isn't like using one high ranking AA politician to say that racism doesn't exist in America, because there's still thousands of stories and people that can be pointed to show that it does. This is me saying that for every female performer you can show me that started off doing IR and left the industry fairly soon, I can show you another one who started off doing IR and has stuck around. And truthfully, I could also show you another two female performers who didn't shoot IR to start with and also left fairly soon. And that's ignoring the fact that without knowing the circumstances of any of these performers, you can't actually say whether or not the fact that they did IR contributed to why they decided to leave porn. It could be because they had drug problems. They could have been unreliable. They could have had their families find out and make them decide to quit. You keep mistaking what I'm saying to mean that it absolutely isn't the case, when what I'm actually saying is that there is no proof, not that it's impossible. That all of this is based on what people think would/will happen, and not what actually is happening. And because there's no proof that pacing is harmful to a career, there's no motivation on the part of anyone to actually change things (basically, you end up with "better safe than sorry"). Click to expand You don't get the problem , you can't use someone's success to prove anything Also shooting for TF isn't an issue to anybody shooting IR is for too many ,they aren't related at all Take your point two and then ask yourself have ever heard any story of girls getting negativity from doing IR? you'll find your answer perfectly fits for them too [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 14 2016 : 6:26PM ^ And, conversely, you can't use someone else's lack of success to prove anything either. You're still not understanding that that's my point. The answer to whether pacing positively affects a career is "we don't know". And if shooting IR is so much more of an issue, then why doesn't Blacked have a higher rate of dropouts than TeenFidelity? You're still completely avoiding that question. And female performers get negativity from anything they do. You've been on these forums more than long enough to know that. You get people saying things if you do IR and/or if you don't. If you do anal and/or if you don't. If you grow out a bush or if you shave. If you decide to get implants. If you start shooting boy/girl after being a g/g performer. If you go g/g only after being a b/g performer. People complaining (i.e. "girls getting negativity") is a really bad metric to say whether or not someone's career has been affected positively or negatively by a decision. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - May 14 2016 : 6:43PM What you guys have proven is that the extremes aren't true. IR will hurt your career. False. IR won't hurt your career. False. Pacing will help your career. False. Pacing won't help your career. False. Many examples have been given that disprove those extreme statements. IR and Pacing (together or separately) may or may not have a positive or negative impact on any given performer's career. I don't think any amount of debate is going to clarify the issue any further. Every career arc is different so they defy direct comparison. Without the ability to view alternate realities any suggestions we're all just guessing if a particular choice had an overall positive or negative effect on a performer's career. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 15 2016 : 10:10AM LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? [Link]
NomnoMnOm Member 379 Posts 5/15	Posted - May 15 2016 : 10:34AM Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand No, he's saying just like black male fans couldn't get into that brazzers scene where the black guy was humilated as the cuckold, he can't get into scenes where the white guy is humilated as the cuckold. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 15 2016 : 10:36AM For the record, I don't and won't do black guys either, even if I'm offered a "black tax." [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 15 2016 : 10:37AM NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand No, he's saying just like black male fans couldn't get into that brazzers scene where the black guy was humilated as the cuckold, he can't get into scenes where the white guy is humilated as the cuckold. Click to expand Well, I was going by his last few words, "I can't ignore that I'm white." That comes across as guilt to me. [Link]

NomnoMnOm Member 379 Posts 5/15	Posted - May 15 2016 : 11:51AM Rosco Fuji wrote: NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand No, he's saying just like black male fans couldn't get into that brazzers scene where the black guy was humilated as the cuckold, he can't get into scenes where the white guy is humilated as the cuckold. Click to expand Well, I was going by his last few words, "I can't ignore that I'm white." That comes across as guilt to me. Click to expand -"but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there" -"I can't ignore that I'm white" Note the bolded. He's saying that he can watch cuck play, but not those where the focus is on the white guy being humilated, because as a white guy, he can't ignore that the focus is on the white guy being humilated ,and therefore; he cannot get into it. Which is completely understandable... [Link]
Goldstein All-Star Member "You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10	Posted - May 15 2016 : 11:56AM NomnoMnOm wrote: -"but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there" -"I can't ignore that I'm white" Note the bolded. He's saying that he can watch cuck play, but not those where the focus is on the white guy being humilated, because as a white guy, he can't ignore that the focus is on the white guy being humilated ,and therefore; he cannot get into it. Which is completely understandable... Click to expand You're never going to last here by using common sense and making rational observations [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 15 2016 : 12:15PM NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand No, he's saying just like black male fans couldn't get into that brazzers scene where the black guy was humilated as the cuckold, he can't get into scenes where the white guy is humilated as the cuckold. Click to expand Well, I was going by his last few words, "I can't ignore that I'm white." That comes across as guilt to me. Click to expand -"but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there" -"I can't ignore that I'm white" Note the bolded. He's saying that he can watch cuck play, but not those where the focus is on the white guy being humilated, because as a white guy, he can't ignore that the focus is on the white guy being humilated ,and therefore; he cannot get into it. Which is completely understandable... Click to expand Thank you for clarifying what someone else is posting. While you're focusing on one phrase, I was making a comment on another part of the post which could be interpreted as possible white guilt. [Link]
NomnoMnOm Member 379 Posts 5/15	Posted - May 15 2016 : 12:24PM Rosco Fuji wrote: NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand No, he's saying just like black male fans couldn't get into that brazzers scene where the black guy was humilated as the cuckold, he can't get into scenes where the white guy is humilated as the cuckold. Click to expand Well, I was going by his last few words, "I can't ignore that I'm white." That comes across as guilt to me. Click to expand -"but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there" -"I can't ignore that I'm white" Note the bolded. He's saying that he can watch cuck play, but not those where the focus is on the white guy being humilated, because as a white guy, he can't ignore that the focus is on the white guy being humilated ,and therefore; he cannot get into it. Which is completely understandable... Click to expand Thank you for clarifying what someone else is posting. While you're focusing on one phrase, I was making a comment on another part of the post which could be interpreted as possible white guilt. Click to expand Lol, I'll let him speak for himself. No problem. Edited by - NomnoMnOm on 5/15/2016 12:26:03 PM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 15 2016 : 1:13PM whatsatelephonebill wrote: ^ And, conversely, you can't use someone else's lack of success to prove anything either. You're still not understanding that that's my point. The answer to whether pacing positively affects a career is "we don't know". And if shooting IR is so much more of an issue, then why doesn't Blacked have a higher rate of dropouts than TeenFidelity? You're still completely avoiding that question. And female performers get negativity from anything they do. You've been on these forums more than long enough to know that. You get people saying things if you do IR and/or if you don't. If you do anal and/or if you don't. If you grow out a bush or if you shave. If you decide to get implants. If you start shooting boy/girl after being a g/g performer. If you go g/g only after being a b/g performer. People complaining (i.e. "girls getting negativity") is a really bad metric to say whether or not someone's career has been affected positively or negatively by a decision. Click to expand Your point is very clear , doing IR first thing is perfectly safe because Sasha Grey did , Tori Black did and so did Anikka Albrote and so many superstars. I say this proves nothing since those who were affected never became superstars and this is why you never heard of them , even if they talk about this there's nobody listening they are nobodies. About those at teenfidelity many of them actually did IR so this could be related , but Teenfidelity doesn't use firsts , only new pornstars who were are months into the business and don't stop right after they shoot with them Did you ever notice that those not doing iR first thing usually reach a higher profile faster than those who do , this whole topic is especially dedicated to those , if you just do a couple scene and then disappear there would be no use in waiting for anything , you will get a bigger payday only if you establish yourself in the first place. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - May 15 2016 : 1:20PM Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand Uh , I don't have such thing , but if any of the players keeps saying how unworthy a white man is and how he's happy being cuckolded especially by a black man or even how he lacks a dick well , I don't like any of this , but , if the cuckolded man stays there says nothing and nobody addresses anything to him, then I can ignore him and the situation and pretend he's not there. I don't like humiliation in any other way either No white guilt (assuming I get what it is) , I just imagine myself as the fucker whatever race is the talent, I don't care, but he keeps reminding me he's black and keeps humiliating the whites as a whole I'm forced to remember I'm white and forced to note I'm not the fucker but the cuckold and I don't like my girls getting fucked by someone else, less of all in front of me, plus humiliating all white as a whole race then all comments would include me as well , so I'd be not only the cuckolded one but also the target of such humiliating issues even out of the porn set. Edited by - LCF on 5/15/2016 1:27:14 PM [Link]
Dat_1_Dude Senior Member 1779 Posts 1/15	Posted - May 15 2016 : 5:34PM NomnoMnOm wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: LCF wrote: ^ the black man and the viewer aren't separate entities , you can't forget about it especially when you live in places where everybody make sure you don't forget that you're black. I can watch cuckold themed scenes but not those with heavy humiliation and raceplay against white , no matter who is the actress in there, I can't ignore that I'm white Click to expand Are you saying you suffer from white guilt while watching porn I/R cuck porn? Click to expand No, he's saying just like black male fans couldn't get into that brazzers scene where the black guy was humilated as the cuckold, he can't get into scenes where the white guy is humilated as the cuckold. Click to expand I think the main issue with that scene was the female talent used in that setup. If you use an IR regular, most people probably brush that off. You cant use those other types of girls that erased "pace" out of their porn vocab for the worst. I've found myself more drawn to the definitive "no-IR" girls like Audrey Bitoni and Jynx Maze than the deceptive and manipulative ones that would be foolish enough to try that type of scene. I mean, I might as well had cut the noose myself when that scene dropped. Props to the guy who put a condom in that scene and had the foresight of the trainwreck that was ensuing. And, at least to me, cuckolding is a weaker version of swap scenes. I prefer the swinger swapping instead of the guy sitting in the corner watching. Not be misconstrued with voyeurism/peeping which I enjoy a lot, but cucks is not my thing but there is a huge fanbase for it. Moreover, like most interracial topics, cuckolding has underlying ties to the previous centuries when white couples were fascinated by the "genetically superior" black beasts but it was basically illegal to explore mixed couples, in public; it had to be the caucasions targeting the minorities, not vice versa. If a girl is doing all she can to avoid black guys: claiming she has black friends, did a scene with a black girl, all types of anal/____bangs to keep from being shot out, et al, I would think that she would stay away from such racially charged scenes. The psychological aspect intensifies when said female talent is not IR-friendly in these type of scenes, it's not just a porn scene, or a regular cuckold anymore. [Link]
whatsatelephonebill Senior Member 2935 Posts 10/11	Posted - May 15 2016 : 6:58PM LCF wrote: Your point is very clear , doing IR first thing is perfectly safe because Sasha Grey did , Tori Black did and so did Anikka Albrote and so many superstars. I say this proves nothing since those who were affected never became superstars and this is why you never heard of them , even if they talk about this there's nobody listening they are nobodies. About those at teenfidelity many of them actually did IR so this could be related , but Teenfidelity doesn't use firsts , only new pornstars who were are months into the business and don't stop right after they shoot with them Did you ever notice that those not doing iR first thing usually reach a higher profile faster than those who do , this whole topic is especially dedicated to those , if you just do a couple scene and then disappear there would be no use in waiting for anything , you will get a bigger payday only if you establish yourself in the first place. Click to expand You're so close, but that's not my point either. My point is that since Sasha, Tori, Anikka and many others have done it and been successful, while women like Alice or Rose any many others have also done it and not been successful, that maybe it's another factor besides whether or not they did IR that determined whether or not they are/were successful. That maybe, just maybe, whether or not they did IR at the start of their career had nothing to do with whether they were successful or not. [Link]
bahadir Member 200 Posts 7/14	Posted - May 15 2016 : 8:05PM http://www.valenappi.com/post/44854/we-are-not-porno-enough Here is a post about subject on Valentina Nappi's website. Edited by - bahadir on 5/15/2016 8:06:32 PM [Link]
sh_rock Member we the people in order to form a more perfect union... 518 Posts 12/03	Posted - May 16 2016 : 3:30AM Draxxx wrote: Click to expand It's not as simple or black and white as some of you want it to be. All girls are different. Some girls enter porn with the intention of being in for the long haul and being a porn star and having a big name and popularity. Some girls enter porn to enhance their escorting and/or dancing careers. Those girls come in and don't really shoot that much because porn isn't their first priority, it's just to have some sort of name recognition that will benefit their real job. Some girls enter because they think it's an easy way to make money. They come in with no real agenda other than to give it a try to see what happens. Some girls enter porn with the idea to just shoot as many scenes as possible and make as much money as they can. For a girl wanted to be a real star they have to be selective about what they do and when they do it. Simply pumping out scenes may work for some but for the majority of girls looking to be real stars some actual thought has to go into getting the most out of their career. Longevity is fine but there are different levels of longevity. There are girls who have been around for years but aren't a big deal. They get work but they don't get the boxcovers, they don't win awards, they don't get that much if any fan request to be shot, when they do conventions they don't have the long lines at their tables, and lastly they don't make the kind of money the more popular girls make. For some girls, to be a major player they must make wise career moves. Carter Cruise holding out (pacing) for doing her first IR for BLACKED was a smart career move. By not just accepting the first IR gig thrown her way she was able to make her BLACKED debut a showcase an event that gained her lots of attention and an award. Plus, her next IR will be a big deal and probably financially strong because fans will want to see her next IR work after her award winning IR BLACKED work. Directors/studios will all want to be the ones who gets her next IR work because they know it will be a big mover. However...had Carter Cruise had the mentality of most of the fan community she would've just hopped on the first IR offer thrown her way and it probably would've been early in her career before she built a following and it would've ended up being just another scene and her first would've been as big a deal. By holding out (pacing) for the right deal at the right time she was able to maximize her payday, her exposure and her clout for future movies. That all happened because she played it smart and waited (pacing). Most fans don't care because they just want to see her do a black guy and don't care about her making the best career choices. Nikki Benz made a smart career choice by not just doing some random IR scene and choosing to work with on of the biggest studios and do a showcase even cutting her pay to do it because she knew having her IR debut be an event would pay off in the long run. It absolutely gave her career a shot in the arm. Not saying she was doing badly otherwise but it raised her profile with fans and studios. Did holding out on IR help these two girls? Yes. Because they waited and created a demand that paid off as I mentioned. Did it extend their career? Debatable. Maybe they've set a time limit on how long they plan to be in porn and plan to leave when that time comes regardless. But what those decisions did was give them a bit more clout to make staying in porn easier. It's easier to stay in porn when you have a big fanbase and are in demand from the major studios as opposed to slipping into obscurity and only being able to work at the grade "D" studios for less exposure and less money. On the other side of the coin...The girls who decided to jump right into IR probably missed exploiting their full IR potential. Who's to say some of those girls missed out on getting a showcase from one of the majors? They probably won't get those calls from the majors to do IR because they've watered down their brand by doing it regularly for the smaller studios. Perhaps the JULES JORDAN, DARK X, or BLACKED directors don't want to shoot some girls without a big following doing the same stuff for them that they've done a bunch of times in the minors. Nothing special about doing that. They want to offer fans something they haven't seen a lot of or girls who bring a sizable audience with them. To be a major pornstar a girl has to work for the major studios. To work for the majors the girl must bring something. A fanbase she built, or her doing something she hasn't done much elsewhere. Therefore, holding out for the best deal only makes sense for a girl planning a long porn career. From the fan perspective, most fans don't give two shits. They don't care about the girl's career. kinda understandable. They just want to see the girl do the guys they want as soon and as many times as possible and then grow bored with it and move on to the next girl. I think it's fine for a fan not to not worry so much about a girl's career path or status but what's messed up is the fans who are jerks about it. The ones who insist they know what's best for the girl more than they do and the ones who refuse to respect the girl's career choices. So yeah, pacing and holding out can be important to the girl's career. Longevity-wise? Harder to pin that one down but it only makes sense that for some or perhaps even most girls it may play a factor. Click to expand History has already shown that some of the biggest stars in porn have done scenes with black guys and some of the biggest stars in porn have not done scenes with black guys. As for those who have done black men some did it right off the bat and some have waited for various periods of time. Yes there some women who waited to do IR and it has paid off for them in terms of money and/or career boost. However there are just as many if not more women who waited to do IR that did not fare so well in terms of money and/or career boost. For the women who are currently holding off doing black men some are waiting for that big payday but then again some may never do a scene with a black man at all. It is a gamble that these women are taking. The thing is for the majority of the dodgers the "first IR" payday is not going to make up for the potential money they could be making now. Not all the women who are "pacing" themselves will make it to "Carter Cruise" or above status. As for your recent posts in this thread it seems that they have moved from an opinion to more of an advocacy position as if you are encouraging these girls to hold off on doing scenes with black guys, at least for a certain amount of time. [Link]

Draxxx Senior Member 3831 Posts 2/07	Posted - May 16 2016 : 9:26AM sh_rock wrote: History has already shown that some of the biggest stars in porn have done scenes with black guys and some of the biggest stars in porn have not done scenes with black guys. As for those who have done black men some did it right off the bat and some have waited for various periods of time. Yes there some women who waited to do IR and it has paid off for them in terms of money and/or career boost. However there are just as many if not more women who waited to do IR that did not fare so well in terms of money and/or career boost. For the women who are currently holding off doing black men some are waiting for that big payday but then again some may never do a scene with a black man at all. It is a gamble that these women are taking. The thing is for the majority of the dodgers the "first IR" payday is not going to make up for the potential money they could be making now. Not all the women who are "pacing" themselves will make it to "Carter Cruise" or above status. Click to expand No, not all women will make it to Carter Cruise status but all women should do what they think works best for them. That may include holding out or diving in to IR right off the bat. The intent with my post was to give examples of why a girl might want to hold off on IR and the impact it might have. The argument some were making here was that holding out/pacing doesn't impact a career and I gave examples showing how it might. In some cases holding out too long might be a mistake, sometimes not holding out long enough may be a mistake. There's no one size fits all answer. As for your recent posts in this thread it seems that they have moved from an opinion to more of an advocacy position as if you are encouraging these girls to hold off on doing scenes with black guys, at least for a certain amount of time. Click to expand I'm want pornstars to do what they think is best for them. The happier they are and the better off their career is the better their scenes will be and the longer they'll stick around. At the same time I doubt my pointing out they should do what they are already doing will make any difference. Pornstars have access to plenty of people who've gone through this and know what type of impact it will have and know the porn industry from the inside out. So what's being said here will have about zero impact. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 10:17AM Here's 3 possible reasons the girls don't do I/R: 1. Maybe they just don't like or do black guys. 2. They don't like the black guys currently working in porn. 3. They think the concept of races mixing is gross and disgusting regardless of the concept. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:12AM ^Rare is the pornstar who only shoots with people who she would have sex with outside of work. Actually, I don't doubt for a second that there are pornstars shooting IR right now who wouldn't sleep with a black man for free. It's work, and that's why I think the excuses you listed aren't common enough to really matter. [Link]
NomnoMnOm Member 379 Posts 5/15	Posted - May 16 2016 : 12:29PM Rosco Fuji wrote: Here's 3 possible reasons the girls don't do I/R: 1. Maybe they just don't like or do black guys. 2. They don't like the black guys currently working in porn. 3. They think the concept of races mixing is gross and disgusting regardless of the concept. Click to expand The first two have both been given as reasons. As far as the third one, not too many models would reveal those feelings publicly, even if they felt that way, for obvious reasons. I have seen, "I don't want to demoralize myself.", though. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 2:40PM misspornUSA wrote: ^Rare is the pornstar who only shoots with people who she would have sex with outside of work. Actually, I don't doubt for a second that there are pornstars shooting IR right now who wouldn't sleep with a black man for free. It's work, and that's why I think the excuses you listed aren't common enough to really matter. Click to expand Do you actually believe that for one second? The whole idea of "I bang tons of black guys in my personal life, but the right project hasn't come along yet" is a load of crap given the current number of scenes supposedly being or not being shot. Seriously, what would the right project be? Your argument is just one step away from uppity white people saying to other uppity white people, " I have plenty of black friends" to make themselves appear diverse, when in reality the one black person they know is someone they might be vaguely acquainted with at work. Personally, I could care less if a girl goes dark or not, there are plenty that do, so focus on them. And, if I were a girl in porn, you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to bang that guy who was whining like a little bitch because he didn't win an AVN award, or the bald guy who speaks with a mouthful of mush when he says, "Get nasty wit that dick" I'd never say it out loud, but I'd make up the generic reason that everyone else gives when not doing I/R. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 2:54PM ^Do you believe that if a performer regularly shoots anal scenes then she must really like anal sex? It's naïve to assume that the reason a performer will or won't do something or someone onscreen is the same reason a performer will or won't do something or someone offscreen. I think that it was you who mentioned that you're occasionally hired by pornstars to guard them at events. Should I conclude from that that if you weren't getting paid you would just regularly show up at porn events to guard pornstars for free? [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 2:59PM ^^When a pornstar shoots her first IR after years in the industry, do you think to yourself "I guess that she didn't like black guys before but now she's changed her mind"? You've always struck me as more cynical than that. [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - May 16 2016 : 3:23PM ^MPUSA, do you believe that the likes of Bonnie Rotten, Rachel Roxx, Christy Mack may not actually be attracted black men? [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 4:56PM ^They may or may not be. The real question is whether or not those pornstars have only shot with people whom they are attracted to. Edited by - misspornUSA on 5/16/2016 4:56:43 PM [Link]
Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User 1102 Posts 2/15	Posted - May 16 2016 : 5:04PM Men are hypocrites on this racial issue. Men , often enough, have their preferences too. Maybe they love asian girls, or white girls, or black women, or latinas when they are out in the dating world. It doesn't always mean the guy is a racist, it is just what turns him on. So why can't women decide who they are and are not attracted to without being called racist whores? If a girl is "waiting for the payday" that is a legitimate reason. If the girl just isn't attracted to black men, that does not by default mean she is racist. Maybe she is as racism is alive and well, however, calling her one is just an assumption that is completely unreasonable. Because, like with my male example, attraction to specific looks does not automatically mean the guy is racist to others. [Link]

misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 5:22PM LCF and and I had a relevant exchange on page 9 of Is IR becoming too PC?. LCF wrote: Melvyn wrote: I mean, it's no skin off our teeth, but I think we could all concede that we've heard from many black women who say non-black men simply turn them off. I don't consider this hateful. Click to expand Except that when a white woman says she's not attracted by black men which is pretty much the same as to be turned off by them, then they're labeled racist , "how can you say you're not attracted by ALL black men? You can't possibly say that, it's impossible, you're a racist , this statement is plainly racist" or variations on such tune Click to expand misspornUSA wrote: ^^Well, the excuse does sound racist when someone doesn't qualify it at all (e.g. "I haven't been attracted to any of the black guys whom I've met"). Personally I could even understand someone saying "I'm not attracted to dark skin." I don't doubt that many people would be offended if a pornstar said that, but that at least is a specific physical characteristic. Lumping all of the world's black guys together indiscriminately sounds like a bit much. Anyway, the real problem with that excuse is that performers by and large don't only shoot with people to whom they are attracted. Because of that fact, even Nica Noelle, who has condemnded raceplay as "racist", has singled out the "not attracted" excuse as unbelievable. Edited by - misspornUSA on 3/21/2016 11:18:26 AM Click to expand [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 7:08PM misspornUSA wrote: ^Do you believe that if a performer regularly shoots anal scenes then she must really like anal sex? It's naïve to assume that the reason a performer will or won't do something or someone onscreen is the same reason a performer will or won't do something or someone offscreen. I think that it was you who mentioned that you're occasionally hired by pornstars to guard them at events. Should I conclude from that that if you weren't getting paid you would just regularly show up at porn events to guard pornstars for free? Click to expand 1. Comparing apples to oranges. Doesn't count. 2. No it's not. Its completely logical. As an example. I won't do a black guy in my personal life, and I sure as hell wouldn't do one on film. (that's a joke, I'm not gay or bi, but you get the point) 3. Again apples and oranges. But, if a friend asked me to do so, I would because I'm loyal to my friends and I'm concerned about their safety/well being. But, for the most part, I don't go to the shows, because from a working point of view, it is the most god awful boring thing in the world to do. You're standing behind or next to the girl, and you're just standing there watching a bunch of drooling mopes who feel that because they've jerked off to the girl that the girl owes them something. Then you get the guys who bring presents to the girls, usually crap, and expect the girl to fawn all over them. FYI, the girls throw the presents away. Multiple that by 100 and you find yourself in hell. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 7:20PM misspornUSA wrote: ^^When a pornstar shoots her first IR after years in the industry, do you think to yourself "I guess that she didn't like black guys before but now she's changed her mind"? You've always struck me as more cynical than that. Click to expand Or maybe, just maybe, the phone stops ringing after 150 straight M/F or G/G scenes and the need to stay relevant pops up, so the girl swallows her pride, beliefs, and convictions, and does something she wouldn't normally do. Point of note, Me? Cynical? I'm never cynical. I'm extremely optimistic about life, love, and the pursuit of happiness. I do however, like to mock the ones who take the finished porn product as something wwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy more serious than a form of visual media used to jerk off. Point is, people over analyze this topic way too much, and I just provided some actual reasons why the girls won't do I/R. But, the reasons are way to simple and basic and people don't believe them. Instead, they have to believe its something much more complex. It's not, its very simple actually. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 8:00PM ^^Your response to point 2 really makes it very clear what exactly we disagree on. Porn as we're discussing it is not simply having sex on camera. Of course if you think that it is that explains why you assume that a pornstar wouldn't shoot with someone who they wouldn't sleep with outside of work. The problem is that you're overlooking the role of money and I'm not. The money is not incidental, it's central. A pornstar isn't just some person who likes to occasionally record their sexual rendezvous. That's not how it works, which is why women and men in porn do not generally only shoot with people whom they would fuck offscreen. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 8:15PM Rosco Fuji wrote: 1. Comparing apples to oranges. Doesn't count. Click to expand That's not an answer. If you want to make inferences about a pornstar's offscreen sex life that are based on what she shoots, you should be consistent. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 16 2016 : 8:44PM ^^^"You can't just do EVERYTHING right away because you have to create LONGEVITY FOR YOUR JOB. It's not like a typical job" seems simple and straightforward to me. "There is now currently a financial incentive to wait and shoot IR for a bigger pay day or to negotiate a showcase feature based around the female performer" is also a simple explanation. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:27PM misspornUSA wrote: Rosco Fuji wrote: 1. Comparing apples to oranges. Doesn't count. Click to expand That's not an answer. If you want to make inferences about a pornstar's offscreen sex life that are based on what she shoots, you should be consistent. Click to expand Anal and I/R and 2 way different issues in porn and dodging anal isn't a controversial topic. So, again apples and oranges. [Link]
Melvyn Senior Member 2797 Posts 12/12	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:30PM Canadian_Cindy wrote: Men are hypocrites on this racial issue. Men , often enough, have their preferences too. Maybe they love asian girls, or white girls, or black women, or latinas when they are out in the dating world. It doesn't always mean the guy is a racist, it is just what turns him on. So why can't women decide who they are and are not attracted to without being called racist whores? If a girl is "waiting for the payday" that is a legitimate reason. If the girl just isn't attracted to black men, that does not by default mean she is racist. Maybe she is as racism is alive and well, however, calling her one is just an assumption that is completely unreasonable. Because, like with my male example, attraction to specific looks does not automatically mean the guy is racist to others. Click to expand QFT I'm so bored by people constantly using the dumbest things as some kind of litmus test for who is a bigot or racist or whatever. Witch hunts are so 17th century. That's what identity politics seems to boil down to these days: witch hunts. The truth is there's a high demand for causes of moral outrage, but evidently a short supply of problems to be outraged about, or so it would seem as people keep scraping the barrel for any trifling specter of inequity. If anyone feels grievous pangs of righteous indignation over this issue, I promise there are infinitely more serious issues in the world. I think it genuinely does help to consider the serious concerns in the rest of the world. Imagine throughout the vast majority of the world how they would be so nonplussed by all this. Like... "Wait what is it? People get paid, not just to have sex, but to have their sexual activity documented and presented for public consumption? And people can provide for themselves this way? They may even become rich this way? They become stars? Stars like what help us to see in the night so we do not get eaten by beasts? They can sell their underwear? They tell people what items they want and people buy them? All they have to do is ask and point other people to The Amazon, and they shall receive gifts? All this and they still believe things are unfair because sometimes someone may make 10% more once in their lifetime doing a certain sex thing? I have to walk 6 hours every day to find a place where I can plug in my cellular telephone because my town does not have electricity and we need the information to survive." People there is a limit to how many fucks can be given literally or figuratively in a lifetime, and I'm sorry, but I gotta draw the line at quibbling over a 1% variable in how much money a pornstar will make in their career. This is not directed at any of the rationalists or cynics in here. I'm just trying to temper the hysteria in the fake outrage brigade. Edited by - Melvyn on 5/16/2016 11:41:48 PM [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:35PM misspornUSA wrote: ^^^"You can't just do EVERYTHING right away because you have to create LONGEVITY FOR YOUR JOB. It's not like a typical job" seems simple and straightforward to me. "There is now currently a financial incentive to wait and shoot IR for a bigger pay day or to negotiate a showcase feature based around the female performer" is also a simple explanation. Click to expand That might be true if you're a top star, but if you're the other 99.9% of girls in porn, you're turning down a hell of a lot more cash by turning down a bunch of scenes than holding out for an extra $300 for a I/R scene. Not every girl gets a show case and not every girl can command a black tax. [Link]
murdock Member I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:38PM ^^ I don't always agree with Melvyn but when I do it's because he absolutely nailed it. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:44PM misspornUSA wrote: ^^Your response to point 2 really makes it very clear what exactly we disagree on. Porn as we're discussing it is not simply having sex on camera. Of course if you think that it is that explains why you assume that a pornstar wouldn't shoot with someone who they wouldn't sleep with outside of work. The problem is that you're overlooking the role of money and I'm not. The money is not incidental, it's central. A pornstar isn't just some person who likes to occasionally record their sexual rendezvous. That's not how it works, which is why women and men in porn do not generally only shoot with people whom they would fuck offscreen. Click to expand You're over thinking everything. Porn is nothing more than people having sex for money on camera. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - May 16 2016 : 11:49PM Dup Edited by - rosco fuji on 5/16/2016 11:50:08 PM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 17 2016 : 12:32AM Rosco Fuji wrote: Anal and I/R and 2 way different issues in porn and dodging anal isn't a controversial topic. So, again apples and oranges. Click to expand The approach is the same, regardless of whether we are discussing first anal, first IR, first DP, first IR anal, etc. The level of controversy is besides the point. [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 17 2016 : 12:38AM Rosco Fuji wrote: misspornUSA wrote: ^^^"You can't just do EVERYTHING right away because you have to create LONGEVITY FOR YOUR JOB. It's not like a typical job" seems simple and straightforward to me. "There is now currently a financial incentive to wait and shoot IR for a bigger pay day or to negotiate a showcase feature based around the female performer" is also a simple explanation. Click to expand That might be true if you're a top star, but if you're the other 99.9% of girls in porn, you're turning down a hell of a lot more cash by turning down a bunch of scenes than holding out for an extra $300 for a I/R scene. Not every girl gets a show case and not every girl can command a black tax. Click to expand I do think that the number of pornstars who see things that way is on the rise. Thanks to Blacked and the Blacked effect it is no longer uncommon to shoot first IR before other firsts. Additionally, we've seen several pornstars who likely could have held out for a showcase forego that option. [Link]
DiamondJackman Deactivated User Straight From My Brown Balls, Using Good Pussy 501 Posts 10/15	Posted - May 17 2016 : 2:55AM ^I agree with Rosco Fuji, you're over thinking on this. Edited by - Diamondjackman on 5/17/2016 2:55:57 AM [Link]
misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13	Posted - May 17 2016 : 11:12AM ^. [Link]